What is wrong with the Hexblade?

[ngilop]

hey guys I am going over the various classes that are somewhat lacking in their abilities. and Now i am deciding to work on the hexblade.

But never actually having played one in a game; let alone play with any optimizers, im not too sure where the lacking of coolness is.

SO my question to you all is, where and in what forms are the hexblade lacking and what can be done with the class to bump it up to tier 3.

First off I cna already say there are two things I am going to do to 'fix' it. 1) give it a larger spell list. I feel the spell list is a bit too small and does not encompass enough situations.
2) the 'core' ability Hexblade curse seems like utter CRAP to me. SO i am going to definately tweak that a lot. maybe make it a swift action and lose the per day uses and make it unlimited but one one active at a time.

[Snowbluff]

I think the better question would be "What's right with hexblade?"

They made a whole ton of familiar mistakes.

Arcane Resistance: Should probably work for Divine Spells as well.

Their Curse should probably be at-will, and/or better integrated into an action economy. Swift action, maybe? The DC should get a buff, to lower the want for Cha.

Personally, I'd like to see a 5/9 or 6/9 spell list. The 4/9 is a little weak, and they start with no spells.

As a melee, they should probably have a good Fort Save.

[Amnestic]

The guy who wrote the Hexblade was apparently not too chuffed with the final product either, since he wrote a few ideas out on what could be done to 'fix' it. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades&post_num=11#332210466)

You may want to consider some or all of his ideas when doing your own rewrite.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Arcane Resistance: Should probably work for Divine Spells as well.
It does-- the ability name says arcane, but the text just says "spells and spell-like effects." (Which probably means SLAs). Nothing about it not working for divine spells.


Their Curse should probably be at-will, and/or better integrated into an action economy. Swift action, maybe? The DC should get a buff, to lower the want for Cha.
I don't know about totally at will, but it certainly needs to be more useful. I think the class' creator suggested 1+level/day somewhere; personally, I'd go with X/encounter, once every 1d4 rounds, or something like that.

Also, their curse is a free action.


Personally, I'd like to see a 5/9 or 6/9 spell list. The 4/9 is a little weak, and they start with no spells.
I'd add 0-level spells, but seriously, have you looked at their list? It's fantastic! Look at some of the gems it gives you:

Charm Person/Monster
Hideous Laughter
Glitterdust
Invisibility (normal and greater)
Mirror Image
Arcane Sight
Wind Wall
Baleful Polymorph
Dominate Person
Enervation
Fear
Polymorph
Scrying
Solid Fog

The spells/day table is a little on the anemic side, but you know a pretty solid number.


As a melee, they should probably have a good Fort Save.
Well, yes.

I would offer a few more spells-- say, +1 spell/level/day and +1 spell known/level/day, let their caster level equal their class level -3-- or better yet, give them 0-level spells from level 1 and let their CL=level-- and let them pick fighter bonus feats as well as their own crappy list.

[Snowbluff]

It does-- the ability name says arcane, but the text just says "spells and spell-like effects." (Which probably means SLAs). Nothing about it not working for divine spells.
My bad, confusing the really rules with an awful houserule.



Also, their curse is a free action.
Free actions aren't a thing if they do something useful. If you have at-will curse, it's best that you don't spam it on everything first round.


I'd add 0-level spells, but seriously, have you looked at their list? It's fantastic! Look at some of the gems it gives you:

Charm Person/Monster
Hideous Laughter
Glitterdust
Invisibility (normal and greater)
Mirror Image
Arcane Sight
Wind Wall
Baleful Polymorph
Dominate Person
Enervation
Fear
Polymorph
Scrying
Solid Fog

The spells/day table is a little on the anemic side, but you know a pretty solid number. Progression is the issue. Nice spells, but it would be nicer if they got them sooner. Also, 1/2 CL severely limits the effectiveness of the spells.



Well, yes.:smallcool:



I would offer a few more spells-- say, +1 spell/level/day and +1 spell known/level/day, let their caster level equal their class level -3-- or better yet, give them 0-level spells from level 1 and let their CL=level-- and let them pick fighter bonus feats as well as their own crappy list.
I don't think they need the whole fighter feat list.

[Big Fau]

Every since they printed the Duskblade I've been saying that it's the way they should have handled the 4/9s melee classes. The Hexblade could use more spells per day and 5th level spells (along with a spell list overhaul for balance purposes).

[Amphetryon]

Hexblade's low FORT is at least partly compensated by the fact that, as melee and caster, they'll want a good CON anyway. The fact that most PrC out into something with a decent FORT progression also eases the pain here, but that's hardly what I'd call a "good design feature."

The Dark Companion Variant is a straight upgrade over the by-the-book Hexblade; I firmly believe every Hexblade should take it.

Google "Mearls Hexblade Fix" for ideas from the Hexblade's designer on how he'd improve the Class after seeing the emergent meta of 3.5 evolve.

[Mephibosheth]

There are a number of different hexblade fixes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146389). Subtle, minor, tweaky ones and major re-dos. Warlock-style invoking ones and completely spell-less ones. There are also feats and new spells and PrCs if your interested in that, too. By all means, don't let this stop you from making your own. Just some other possibilities to get you started!

In practice, I've found the Mearls fix to be a lot of fun, especially if you throw the dark companion ACF in for good measure. Lots of fun stuff to do with swift and mental-only actions, leaving you plenty of time for spellcasting or full attacking. Definitely not the most powerful class but it holds its own fairly well, at least at mid levels. More spells/day at earlier levels would definitely help; I found myself always reserving my spells for fear of wasting them on a non-climactic combat, which effectively kept me from ever really using them.

[TuggyNE]

Free actions aren't a thing if they do something useful. If you have at-will curse, it's best that you don't spam it on everything first round.

I can't tell what you're saying here at all.

[Starbuck_II]

There are a number of different hexblade fixes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146389). Subtle, minor, tweaky ones and major re-dos. Warlock-style invoking ones and completely spell-less ones. There are also feats and new spells and PrCs if your interested in that, too. By all means, don't let this stop you from making your own. Just some other possibilities to get you started!

Has anyone considered a Duskblade style casting? More spells/day, up to 5th casting, starting at 1st. (other than Pathfinder one linked)

[Mephibosheth]

Has anyone considered a Duskblade style casting? More spells/day, up to 5th casting, starting at 1st. (other than Pathfinder one linked)

I've seen the idea proposed several times and I'm sure someone's implemented it. I can't remember if any of the fixes I linked includes duskblade-style casting. And I know there are fixes (many, many fixes) out there I haven't seen. So, my guess is, "probably."

[WhatBigTeeth]

SO my question to you all is, where and in what forms are the hexblade lacking and what can be done with the class to bump it up to tier 3.
Copy the Bard's spellcasting progression and glue it over the Hexblade's Spells known/Spells per day table, scribble out the line about half CL and tape a list of the Bard's level 5/6 enchantments and the core Sorc/Wiz's level 5/6 debuffs to the end of the Hexblade's spell list. Voila.

[DMVerdandi]

Honestly, I would make it like the arcane answer to a cleric.

D6 Hit die
No armor proficiency
Simple and martial weapon proficiency
4 skill points+Cha
3/4 bab

Wiz/sorcerer spells per day.
Spirit Shaman casting mechanics.

Has an assortment of buffs and curses that sacrifice spell slots for use under the HEX list. Maybe ten different hexes.

1. Armor of Malice (Basically Mage armor that shoots out negative energy when hit.)

2. Empower weapon (Arcane strike for free)

3. Drain Life (Works as vampiric touch)

4. Strange swiftness (Speed 10/spell level)

5. Arcane might (Divine power but arcane)

6. Ennui (Attack halves enemy speed and initiative)

7. Enrage (Attack makes enemy unable to concentrate)

8. Frighten (Attack has fear effects)

9. HURT (Constitution damage)

10.Blade Burst (Duskblade stuff.)

[navar100]

The problem was the philosophy when it was created. At the time they were horrified of the thought of combining a warrior and a magic user. They wanted to make an arcane version of the paladin, a warrior with some magical abilities but arcane instead of divine, yet they hated the idea of a fighter casting Fireball so anything that could be perceived like that had to go out the window and nerfed down hard. Anything magical had to be put to the microscope to make sure it wasn't "overpowered". What they came up with was little power at all.

Eventually they started seeing the light. Eventually they learned they undervalued casting a spell and overvalued making a melee attack roll. They gave warriors Nice Things with Tome of Battle. They gave magic more flair instead of flash with Incarnum. Instead of Eldritch Knight they gave us Abjurant Champion. They went back to the drawing board of the built-in single class warrior-arcane gish with a fresh new look and gave us the Duskblade.

[ngilop]

I like the idea of hexes.. time to steal stuff from pathfinder some more LOL.

I definately do not want to give the hexblade higher level spells, as to me they are not supposed to be mainly casters

thats teh realsm of the duskblade and the bard.. I want teh hexblade to be more of an arcane paladin, instead of being about protecting his allies though, the hexblade is all about debuffing his enemies in some way.

[grarrrg]

Free actions aren't a thing if they do something useful. If you have at-will curse, it's best that you don't spam it on everything first round.
Progression is the issue. Nice spells, but it would be nicer if they got them sooner. Also, 1/2 CL severely limits the effectiveness of the spells.

I can't tell what you're saying here at all.

Translation: If the Curse was usable At-Will, AND useable as a Free Action then EVERY encounter EVER would start with "I Curse EVERYTHING" while still retaining Full/Standard/Move/Swift actions for everything else.
So by making it At-Will it NEEDS to NOT be a Free Action.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So by making it At-Will it NEEDS to NOT be a Free Action.
This is certainly true.

I have to chime in again on the "giving more spells" thing-- don't. Yes, you can power up just about anything in 3.5 by giving it more magic, but that's the boring solution. The game is more interesting when everyone's not a primary caster. The Hexblade has some crappy-but-flavorful class abilities and a fine, flavorful spell list. Yes, it gets its magic a lot later than a wizard does, but it's still useful when it arrives (or, at least, it would be with a proper caster level). He doesn't need much more magic. He needs better class features.

[ngilop]

EXACTLYT Grod, that is my main get to here for just about every class re-work ive ever done Ive tried to give them more and more useful class features.

I want them to stay where they are in term sof spell casting, but i am going to be bumping their caster level up to be lvl-3, like i did for the paladin and ranger.

I am probably going to glean some thematic hexes from the PF witch, drop their HD to d8, but maybe i could keep them at d10 idk yet.

I am getting rid of that crappy familair, as it makes no sense to me, ive heard that dark companion is good but i have no idea what it is nor what it does.

[Pickford]

Translation: If the Curse was usable At-Will, AND useable as a Free Action then EVERY encounter EVER would start with "I Curse EVERYTHING" while still retaining Full/Standard/Move/Swift actions for everything else.
So by making it At-Will it NEEDS to NOT be a Free Action.

Well, the curse 'is' free action and it has limits per day.

From book:

Once per day, as a free action, a hexblade can unlease a curse upon a foe.

From errata:

Page 6: Hexblade’s Curse (class feature)
A hexblade can utter only one hexblade’s curse per
round, even if he gets multiple curses per day.

It would be nice if there was a way to get extra curses (like extra rage/extra smite, etc...), though I suspect Ability Focus wouldn't be a bad start.

[Snails]

The problem was the philosophy when it was created. At the time they were horrified of the thought of combining a warrior and a magic user. They wanted to make an arcane version of the paladin, a warrior with some magical abilities but arcane instead of divine, yet they hated the idea of a fighter casting Fireball so anything that could be perceived like that had to go out the window and nerfed down hard. Anything magical had to be put to the microscope to make sure it wasn't "overpowered". What they came up with was little power at all.


There is a genuine potential problem: how to blend "spells" into a full BAB class without it being too good as a dip. +2 will and access to some wands is pretty nice.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I am getting rid of that crappy familair, as it makes no sense to me, ive heard that dark companion is good but i have no idea what it is nor what it does.
Er, there's a reason many duskblade builds shell out a feat for the familiar. Familiars derive their stats from an arcane spellcaster's and shares their buff spells, so with just a quick investment in Improved Familiar, you can get a pretty potent ally from that class feature.

Dark Companion's good too though. It's a continuous moveable no-save zone that bestows a -2 modifier to basically all rolls made in its area of effect.

[Mato]

If you use the fix Mearls posted and Dark Companion it isn't a bad Class really. Certainly something you'd PrC out of as soon as you can and it's no Sorcerer, but it is better than pure mundanes and competent as a Paladin analog.

Also check out Hexbands from the MiC, +1 to Save DC and 5/day Cha-to-Damage on a cursed foe. So you get Cha to Saves/Uses/Damage easy enough. And a custom Runestaff granting Vampiric Touch is super gravy.

[Pickford]

If you use the fix Mearls posted and Dark Companion it isn't a bad Class really. Certainly something you'd PrC out of as soon as you can and it's no Sorcerer, but it is better than pure mundanes and competent as a Paladin analog.

Also check out Hexbands from the MiC, +1 to Save DC and 5/day Cha-to-Damage on a cursed foe. So you get Cha to Saves/Uses/Damage easy enough. And a custom Runestaff granting Vampiric Touch is super gravy.

There's always the dead levels fix which is from wotc, so it's official at least.

Character Class: Dead Levels 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

Character Class: Dead Levels 2: (Hexblade is in this one) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x


HEXBLADE

Complete Warrior, pg. 5

The hexblade has five dead levels, the first of which occurs at 6th level. Their hexblade's curse and aura of unluck abilities both follow a logical progression (one every four levels) as do their bonus feats (one every five levels). Hexblades consistently gain new spells per day during all of their dead levels, and so their dead level ability simply embellishes what is normally a 0-level spell to sorcerers and wizards.

Designer's Note: Despite the fact that prestidigitation is designed to be an ineffectual cantrip, a clever hexblade will find new and resourceful uses for this spell beyond simply creating a dramatic entrance. Keep in mind that prestidigitation has a range of 10 feet, can only lift 1 pound of weight, and is restricted to affecting non-living material.

Forced Omens (Ex): At 6th level, a foreboding sense of doom travels with the hexblade, as candle lights flicker, fresh food turns green, or the air becomes stale. A hexblade adds prestidigitation to their list of spells known. See the spell description on pg. 264 of the Player's Handbook. If a hexblade already knows this spell, the character may choose a different 1st level spell. As a bonus spell, prestidigitation cannot be traded for another 1st level spell.

At 8th level, a hexblade may cast prestidigitation as if augmented by the Silent Spell feat without using up a higher-level spell slot. At 11th level, a hexblade may cast prestidigitation as a spell-like ability, lacking both somatic and verbal components, but is still limited to their spell slots per day. At 14th level, a hexblade may cast prestidigitation a number of additional times per day equal to 3 + their Charisma modifier. At 18th level, a hexblade can cast prestidigitation at will. The prestidigitation spell disappears from their list of spells known at this level.

Not bad I suppose considering how much love I've seen prestidigitation get.

[Metahuman1]

Perhaps give them some martial maneuvers? Say, pick two schools, get maneuvers readied and known like a warblade and recover like a swordsage?

That would help some I think.

[Mato]

If you like Maneuvers, don't forget the Hexblade gains four Bonus Feats. If you were to allow Martial Study/Stance to be taken...

[Bonzai]

My biggest complaint? That Bestow Curse wasn't on their spell list. It's kind of their thing, and it not being there was kind of odd.

As for the class it's self... I like them, but they do require some tweaking. My Hexblade build is;

Human/Unseelie Fey (Dragon Magazine Compendium) Hexblade 7/ Black Guard 3/ Hexblade 10

Feats: Dreadful Wrath, Power attack, cleave, improved sunder, brutal strike, bind vestige, improved bind vestige, netherese battle curse.

Choose the Winter Chill ability from Unseelie fey. Also take the Dark Companion alternative class feature from the PH2.

So... lets add up what everything does.

Features

Winter Chill: All living, non-fey within 5ft take a moral penalty to their saves equal to your Charisma modifier.

Hex Blade Curse: You won't have the dire version, but will have the greater version, which is a -4 penalty to saves, attacks, damage, skill, and ability rolls.

Dark Companion: Replaces your familiar. It gives a -2 to saves and Ac to enemies within 5ft.

Aura of Despair: -2 to saves on enemies adjacent to you.

Feats

Bind Vestige & Improved Bind Vestige: You want Focalor's Aura of Sadness, which gives you a 5ft aura that gives -2 to saves, attacks, and skill checks.

Dreadful Wrath: When you charge, cast a spell, or full attack, enemies close by have to make a save or be shaken (-2 to a bunch of stuff).

Brutal Strike: Use as part of a power attack, if they fail a check, they become sickened (Also a -2 penalty to a bunch of stuff).

Netherese Battle Curse: Sacrifice a spell, and make an attack with an attack bonus equal to spell sacrificed. If it lands, they have to make a save or take a -2 penalty to a bunch of stuff.

So add it all up. Most things adjacent to you will be debuffed -6 plus your charisma mod to saves, and -2 to ac, attack rolls, and skill checks. Charge the biggest threat, triggering dreadful wrath, brutal strike, and Netherese battle curse as part of your charge. Then hit them with your Hexblade curse. If all goes well, the target will be debuffed by -16 (plus Charisma modifier) to saves, -12 to attack rolls, -10 to damage rolls, -12 to skill checks, -10 to ability checks, and -2 to AC.

You are now an enabler for the party. Combats will be less dangerous, and aside from SR casters spells will almost always succeed. What I like about it, is that even passively, you are providing a significant de-buff. Outside of de-buffing, you are full BAB. Unseelie Fey gives you some nice bonuses including DR. Blackguard also gives you +Charisma to saves, which you should max out anyway. Combined with Mettle, aura of unluck, etc... and you have a lot of nifty defensive abilities as well. Overall I like the build a lot, but DM's may hate it once they see it in action, and it does involve a 3rd party source. Even without unseelie fey, it is still an effective build.

[Snowbluff]

Bestow Curse should not be on their list. The DC would be lousy since they aren't crazy SAD like an actual caster and they don't have full casting.

As for giving them spells, all of the better classes have better spells. As for 5/9 or 6/9 casting, that would mean they are casters from level one since they'll have something to cast.

As far as class features, changing them too much would mean we would not have a Hexblade anymore. Which might be good, since Hexblade is awful...

[Bonzai]

Bestow Curse should not be on their list. The DC would be lousy since they aren't crazy SAD like an actual caster and they don't have full casting.

Your right, now if only we had a way to lower their saves..... :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Your right, now if only we had a way to lower their saves..... :smallbiggrin:

Which, again, would be they have to make a save. The difference in DCs is pretty high. At 20 levels, and average Hexblade with 14 Cha, +6 Item, (+5) would have to compare to a 18 stat, +6 Item, +5 Levels, +5 Inherent (+12) SAD caster. Add in the fact that the caster have spell levels, you would need a -12 to their saves, not -4, to be even.

[Person_Man]

Here's my homebrew fixed Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218093). I put a lot of work into it and play

This big design flaw is that like every full BAB base class written prior to the Tome of Battle, they really have very little that they can do other then melee attacks. The signature class ability (in this case the Curse) needs to be useful and usable in every combat, and they need enough other stuff (spells, Skills, etc) so that they're not just a one trick pony.

[Deepbluediver]

Every since they printed the Duskblade I've been saying that it's the way they should have handled the 4/9s melee classes. The Hexblade could use more spells per day and 5th level spells (along with a spell list overhaul for balance purposes).

IMO, the Duskblade and the Hexblade always seemed like they really should have been one class. They've got similar stats, fill a similar niche, and even have comparable themes. The Duskblade got more spells, but I thought the at-will curse mechanic from the Hexblade had more undeveloped potential.

I've always thought it would be nice to see either some sort of Duskblade/Hexblade mashup, or a serious rewrite to make the classes more distinct.

[Draz74]

Which, again, would be they have to make a save.

Well, Dark Companion is a start, and using it to lower their saves -2 doesn't require them failing a save. :smallbiggrin:

Hexblade is actually a pretty good entry class for Dragon Disciple or Suel Arcanamach (or both!) or Arcane Archer, and I also put together a fun Hexblade / Jade Phoenix Mage build. (Dipping Crusader and taking Abjurant Champion, naturally. Combining an "any non-good" and an "any non-evil" class gives interesting flavor!) But of course none of that actually fixes the class.

But I think you'd have a decent class with just the following changes:

4+INT skill points, duh
Good Fortitude
use Dark Companion ACF
use Prestidigitation dead-level-fillers
change Caster Level to Hexblade Level -3
change Curse to a swift action, useable X/encounter times


Just these minimal changes would possibly bring the class up to low Tier 3. If you want it higher in Tier 3, you could do some combination of these minimal changes as well:

6+INT skill points
add more bonus feats; expand bonus feat list to include (off the top of my head) Martial Study/Stance, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar, Ability Focus, Practiced Spellcaster.
Comb through Spell Compendium for thematically-appropriate spells to add to their list
uses of their Curse are only "used up" if the target fails its save


If this still isn't enough, I guess you could give it the ability to cast Quickened spells at the same time when it uses its curse, or something.

Also, it occurs to me that a Binder/Hexblade theurge PrC could be pretty cool.

[navar100]

There's always the dead levels fix which is from wotc, so it's official at least.

Character Class: Dead Levels 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a
.

I'm going against my normal temperament in regards to class comparisons, but what the heck are they smoking? The monk gets nothing because a player always has something to look forward to every level, but even the druid gets a couple of little extra things? I accept these little extras aren't uber, but the philosophy behind this it out of whack. Yes, fighter has dead levels, and it would be nice to give them nice things for them, but after all those levels getting spells, wildshaping, and even immunity to poison, I hardly think the druid has cause to complain because he gets "nothing" at 17th level. Nothing at 17th level? He gets to cast a 9th level spell for the first time in his career for crying out loud! Gah!

[Amphetryon]

I'm going against my normal temperament in regards to class comparisons, but what the heck are they smoking? The monk gets nothing because a player always has something to look forward to every level, but even the druid gets a couple of little extra things? I accept these little extras aren't uber, but the philosophy behind this it out of whack. Yes, fighter has dead levels, and it would be nice to give them nice things for them, but after all those levels getting spells, wildshaping, and even immunity to poison, I hardly think the druid has cause to complain because he gets "nothing" at 17th level. Nothing at 17th level? He gets to cast a 9th level spell for the first time in his career for crying out loud! Gah!

The author of that particular piece apparently labored under the belief that spells weren't a thing.

[Amnestic]

The author of that particular piece apparently labored under the belief that spells weren't a thing.

Which is amusing for a guy who co-authored Complete Mage.

Then again, he also worked on Weapons of Legacy so...take that as you will?

[137beth]

Which is amusing for a guy who co-authored Complete Mage.

Then again, he also worked on Weapons of Legacy so...take that as you will?

This made me lol:smallsmile:

Well, he did at least understand that the barbarian was a well-designed tier 4 class (okay, maybe he didn't understand the tier 4 part...)

[Bonzai]

Which, again, would be they have to make a save. The difference in DCs is pretty high. At 20 levels, and average Hexblade with 14 Cha, +6 Item, (+5) would have to compare to a 18 stat, +6 Item, +5 Levels, +5 Inherent (+12) SAD caster. Add in the fact that the caster have spell levels, you would need a -12 to their saves, not -4, to be even.

Which is what my build does, even without unseelie fey. Just by standing next to an opponent debuffs their saves by -6. I haven't had too hard a time landing the curse when I played one, in fact I used a 15th level variant in a gladiator tournament (without unseelie fey or black guard). It usually came down to initiative. If I went first I usually bottomed out their saves, belt of battled, and then baleful polymorphed them. Turn 1 KO, lol.

[Snowbluff]

Which is what my build does, even without unseelie fey. Just by standing next to an opponent debuffs their saves by -6. I haven't had too hard a time landing the curse when I played one, in fact I used a 15th level variant in a gladiator tournament (without unseelie fey or black guard). It usually came down to initiative. If I went first I usually bottomed out their saves, belt of battled, and then baleful polymorphed them. Turn 1 KO, lol.

Except a caster could probably do the same thing, and have a better chance of success. What is your build?

[Bonzai]

It was on my first post. Sure, a caster could have done the same thing far more simply. But that wasn't the point. I treat the Hexblade as a support character rather than a Melee plus. He is like a bard, but in the opposite direction. He is designed to work in a party with casters, and set opponents up for them. In isolation they are mediocre, but teamed up with a save or die/suck caster like a beguiler or transmuter, and magic stuff happens.

[Snowbluff]

It was on my first post. Sure, a caster could have done the same thing far more simply. But that wasn't the point. I treat the Hexblade as a support character rather than a Melee plus. He is like a bard, but in the opposite direction. He is designed to work in a party with casters, and set opponents up for them. In isolation they are mediocre, but teamed up with a save or die/suck caster like a beguiler or transmuter, and magic stuff happens.If I was a Beguiler?

I'd rather have a Black Guard. Or just cast Bestow Curse myself. Or have a DN to cast Bestow Curse. -6 a few times per day with a save just isn't good enough.
EDIT: Or a DB to deal some poisons/debuffs. Or a Warlocks to lay down similiar debuffing.

As for melee skill, I don't think they are that bad. They have some bonus feats... Okay, never mind. These feats suck. They are a lousy melee.

Still wanting your build.

[Amphetryon]

We get it, Snowbluff: You don't like Hexblades.

[Bonzai]

Still wanting your build.

Lol, it was just a page back, but here it is again.

Human/Unseelie Fey (Dragon Magazine Compendium) Hexblade 7/ Black Guard 3/ Hexblade 10

Feats more or less in order: Dreadful Wrath, Power attack, cleave, improved sunder, brutal strike, bind vestige, improved bind vestige, netherese battle curse.

Choose the Winter Chill ability from Unseelie fey. Also take the Dark Companion alternative class feature from the PH2.

So... lets add up what everything does.

Features

Winter Chill: All living, non-fey within 5ft take a moral penalty to their saves equal to your Charisma modifier.

Hex Blade Curse: You won't have the dire version, but will have the greater version, which is a -4 penalty to saves, attacks, damage, skill, and ability rolls.

Dark Companion: Replaces your familiar. It gives a -2 to saves and Ac to enemies within 5ft.

Aura of Despair: -2 to saves on enemies adjacent to you.

Feats

Bind Vestige & Improved Bind Vestige: You want Focalor's Aura of Sadness, which gives you a 5ft aura that gives -2 to saves, attacks, and skill checks.

Dreadful Wrath: When you charge, cast a spell, or full attack, enemies close by have to make a save or be shaken (-2 to a bunch of stuff).

Brutal Strike: Use as part of a power attack, if they fail a check, they become sickened (Also a -2 penalty to a bunch of stuff).

Netherese Battle Curse: Sacrifice a spell, and make an attack with an attack bonus equal to spell sacrificed. If it lands, they have to make a save or take a -2 penalty to a bunch of stuff.

So add it all up. Most things adjacent to you will be passively debuffed -6 plus your charisma mod to saves, and -2 to ac, attack rolls, and skill checks. In combat charge the biggest threat, triggering dreadful wrath, brutal strike, and Netherese battle curse as part of your charge. Then hit them with your Hexblade curse. If all goes well, the target will be debuffed by -16 (plus Charisma modifier) to saves, -12 to attack rolls, -10 to damage rolls, -12 to skill checks, -10 to ability checks, and -2 to AC.

With the Black Guard dip, you get Charisma to all your saves, which combos well with Mettle. Unseelie Fey possibly gives you wings, Vision upgrades, and up to DR 15/Cold Iron. Hexblade's curse is usable 5 times a day, but everything else pretty much unlimited use (except for the Netherese Battle Curse, which is limited by the number of spells you can feed into it).

The Build works fine without unseelie fey, but gets kicked into over drive with it. Assuming a 32 point buy, I would start with a 16 charisma, which would be upped to an 18 with unseelie fey. Add the standard 5 raises, 5 from tomes, and +6 from a cloak, for a total Charisma score of 34. This means that just by standing next to something, I am giving them a -18 to saves before I even start throwing curses or anything else that requires a save (which could further reduce the saves to a -28). Even at level 20 that is pretty significant.

[navar100]

This made me lol:smallsmile:

Well, he did at least understand that the barbarian was a well-designed tier 4 class (okay, maybe he didn't understand the tier 4 part...)

That article almost made me a convert to the Tier System, and people here already know my opinions on that. :smallyuk::smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

I like it. You might be overleveled in Hexblade. If you aren't going for the level 19 Curse, that last 10 levels can be curbed with Anima Mage. That will free you a feat after entry, since the class qualifies itself. Stacking only Cha might not be a good idea, even at that point. I am pretty sure a lot of these effect are Mind-Affecting as well. Check out Poison Spell and Staggering as well. They could be useful.

After all is said and done... Hexblade is the worst part of this build, and easily the weakest link. It's a -4 with a Save. 5 times a day.

Personally I run Unseelie Warlock/Anima Mage. Warlock has shaken as an Essence, which stacks to Frightened with Dreadful Wrath. Sickened and Nauseated are also rolled in. Power Attack is an option for Glaive or Claws, but for these builds I prefer Staggering Strike (The DC is really unfair) and other Ambush feats. 4 levels of dips would work if you only want 1 Dark Invocation. Swordsage2, Paladin or Slaughter 2 with Ascetic Mage cover AC and Saves if you want them.

Unseelie is way overpowered. :smalltongue:

[Bonzai]

I like it. You might be overleveled in Hexblade. If you aren't going for the level 19 Curse, that last 10 levels can be curbed with Anima Mage. That will free you a feat after entry, since the class qualifies itself. Stacking only Cha might not be a good idea, even at that point. I am pretty sure a lot of these effect are Mind-Affecting as well. Check out Poison Spell and Staggering as well. They could be useful.

After all is said and done... Hexblade is the worst part of this build, and easily the weakest link. It's a -4 with a Save. 5 times a day.

Personally I run Unseelie Warlock/Anima Mage. Warlock has shaken as an Essence, which stacks to Frightened with Dreadful Wrath. Sickened and Nauseated are also rolled in. Power Attack is an option for Glaive or Claws, but for these builds I prefer Staggering Strike (The DC is really unfair) and other Ambush feats. 4 levels of dips would work if you only want 1 Dark Invocation. Swordsage2, Paladin or Slaughter 2 with Ascetic Mage cover AC and Saves if you want them.

Unseelie is way overpowered. :smalltongue:

Unseelie IS over powered, lol. Totally agree. But that doesn't stop me from using it when allowed to. In answer to your comment, I went with the extra levels of hexblade to help with the save DC of the curse, and for added uses per day. Only reason I dipped into black guard is that I like the passive aura, and the Charisma to saves are hard to pass up in a charisma based build. It ends up being the same net effect as having the dire curse would have increased the debuff the same -2 as the aura of despair did.

As I said, it's the anti-bard. I can melee and take a hit or two, but am best at making the rest of the party shine in a non-traditional manner.

Anima mage is an interesting thought though. I'll think about it. For no evil allowed campaigns, I was also considering corrupt avenger from Heroes of Horror, but it is a lot bigger level investment and no where as convenient.

[Snowbluff]

In answer to your comment, I went with the extra levels of hexblade to help with the save DC of the curse, and for added uses per day. Only reason I dipped into black guard is that I like the passive aura, and the Charisma to saves are hard to pass up in a charisma based build. It ends up being the same net effect as having the dire curse would have increased the debuff the same -2 as the aura of despair did. Ah, I see. I think it's the evident weak point of the build, so don't mind if I forget why it's there.

Unseelie IS over powered, lol. Totally agree. But that doesn't stop me from using it when allowed to.

As I said, it's the anti-bard. I can melee and take a hit or two, but am best at making the rest of the party shine in a non-traditional manner.
Anything Unseelie does that. That's how good it is.


Anima mage is an interesting thought though. I'll think about it. For no evil allowed campaigns, I was also considering corrupt avenger from Heroes of Horror, but it is a lot bigger level investment and no where as convenient.Focalor's Aura is Mind-Affecting, so swapping out the Vestige for another one during missions with lots of target that are immune can be handy. With 8 levels you can have 2 vestiges. :3

[grarrrg]

From errata:...


BAH!
Who reads errata anyway...
I like my 1d43 Scorpion Tail whip.
And Iron Heart Surging away the Sun.
And...

[Snowbluff]

BAH!
Who reads errata anyway...
I like my 1d43 Scorpion Tail whip.
And Iron Heart Surging away the Sun.
And...

My 19-29/x2 Crit on my Ninja-To! And the boomerang that does, like 23 flat damage! :smalltongue:

[ngilop]

this is why i love GITP forum goers, ( heavy sarcasm there) i never really got any help. peopel saying some crpa about mike mearls and his 'fixes'

then there is a 3 or 4 post tangent about unseelie and errate and the ignoring thereof...

that is why i have so much respect for Grod, he seems to be a genuaily courteous guy and actually stays on topic and tries to help.

throwing random links my way of other peoples hexlade 'fixes' do not in any way shape or form let me know what is actually wrong with the hexblade.

[grarrrg]

throwing random links my way of other peoples hexlade 'fixes' do not in any way shape or form let me know what is actually wrong with the hexblade.

It tries to be a "gish-in-a-can" but fails.
It has the basic stats (Full Bab, d10HD), but has cruddy casting, and gets very little in the way of Melee boosting abilities.

It is MAD, being restricted to Light Armor prompts a need for DEX, weapons generally want STR to be useful, CHA for Casting and DC boosting, CON for Fort Save (it has a bad progression), INT is handy cause it only gets 2 Skills/level, and WIS...I guess WIS can kinda be dumped.

The features it does get are VERY limited in number of uses (and in some cases fairly ineffective).
Curse can only be used a max of 5/day.
Spell slots are very limited.
Spell selection is very limited.
Aura of Unlucky, while nice, comes kinda late and has a VERY short duration of 3+CHA Rounds, and can be used at MOST 3/day.

The good things are Resistance (not quite Divine Grace, but still nice).
Mettle, which combined with Resistance, can be quite handy.
And the Familiar, which actually gets Full Bab and decent HP.

It could use a boost in Spells (even if it is just variety).
The features it does get could be stronger or have better duration, or have more uses.

It wants to cast, but lacks spells.
It want to fight, but has no boosts.
It wants to support, but lacks uses/duration.
It is fairly worthless outside of combat.

[Philistine]

this is why i love GITP forum goers, ( heavy sarcasm there) i never really got any help. peopel saying some crpa about mike mearls and his 'fixes'

then there is a 3 or 4 post tangent about unseelie and errate and the ignoring thereof...

that is why i have so much respect for Grod, he seems to be a genuaily courteous guy and actually stays on topic and tries to help.

throwing random links my way of other peoples hexlade 'fixes' do not in any way shape or form let me know what is actually wrong with the hexblade.

How does looking at suggested fixes not tell you where the class's problems are?

Here's a clue: Every proposed fix corresponds to a problem with the class, as perceived by the creator of said fix.

[Fates]

IMO, the Duskblade and the Hexblade always seemed like they really should have been one class. They've got similar stats, fill a similar niche, and even have comparable themes. The Duskblade got more spells, but I thought the at-will curse mechanic from the Hexblade had more undeveloped potential.

I've always thought it would be nice to see either some sort of Duskblade/Hexblade mashup, or a serious rewrite to make the classes more distinct.

Eh, I suppose, but I think I'd just prefer a hexblade with the spell progression of a duskblade, and 0- and 5th- level spells to boot. While the hexblade and duskblade are both designed to be gishes, their spell selections vary wildly- I feel like adding an array of evocations and other offensive spells to the hexblade would diminish its flavour as a subtler combatant.

[Grod_The_Giant]

While the hexblade and duskblade are both designed to be gishes, their spell selections vary wildly- I feel like adding an array of evocations and other offensive spells to the hexblade would diminish its flavour as a subtler combatant.
Agreed- they're very different flavor-wise, and their spell lists are and should be almost totally distinct, aside from a few generic gish spells like bull's strength and magic weapon.

[WhatBigTeeth]

throwing random links my way of other peoples hexlade 'fixes' do not in any way shape or form let me know what is actually wrong with the hexblade.
What do you want? The class basically doesn't do anything. It has a pitiful number of per-day abilities that aren't all that strong, rarely target more than one opponent and usually permit saves.

The Hexblade's problem is that its class features aren't consequential; it's not an interesting problem - it's the same one that almost every "weak" class runs into. If you want to fix the Hexblade, you need to give it class features which do actually matter - a fix that can go from trivial (pasting on a ToB maneuver progression or Bard/Duskblade casting progression) to elaborate (see some of the more extravagant homebrew).

[Pickford]

I'm going against my normal temperament in regards to class comparisons, but what the heck are they smoking? The monk gets nothing because a player always has something to look forward to every level, but even the druid gets a couple of little extra things? I accept these little extras aren't uber, but the philosophy behind this it out of whack. Yes, fighter has dead levels, and it would be nice to give them nice things for them, but after all those levels getting spells, wildshaping, and even immunity to poison, I hardly think the druid has cause to complain because he gets "nothing" at 17th level. Nothing at 17th level? He gets to cast a 9th level spell for the first time in his career for crying out loud! Gah!

According to the intro from the second article, there was quite a bit of backlash over the sorcerer I think...

[Grim Reader]

If I may be permitted a slight digression, what do people think of the following fixes:

Replace the Curse and Aura of Unlucky with the Hex progression of the Witch.

Replace Resistance with Dark Blessing.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Replace the Curse and Aura of Unlucky with the Hex progression of the Witch.Assuming it's based on Charisma, that's not a bad idea. There's a reason Hexcrafter Magus is often called a fixed Hexblade.

Replace Resistance with Dark Blessing.I'm not sure about this one. Resistance is almost as good as DB, and since they're different abilities, the Hexblade earns its place in most of the builds it's used in by stacking Resistance with Dark Blessing.