Making magic...magic (3.P)

[rollforeigninit]

My Brother & I are in the process of making a campaign world (from the ground up) & we want to tinker with magic a bit. I started a thread on the homebrew forums & it didn't get much of a response so I figured I'd try here for ideas & insights to add to the new world.

I'd like thoughts on how these changes would affect game balance, flavor, and interest in the game.

Major Change 1: No more Class Spell Lists. All spells will be off of one list that casters will pick their spells known from. In the case of spells that appear as different level spells on different classes' lists, we will have to pick one and assign it to said level. Casters will be limited in their selection by a few different factors. Aside from DM's adjudication, all spellcasters will have a Patron/Source/Bloodline for their spells and not all sources grant all spells. (We are considering using Spell Descriptors to divide up the spell access.)

Major Change 2: No more prepared casters. (Poof) hand waved away. Spellbooks are now for the purposes of spell research and cataloging said spells. This does remove a couple classes from play & requires the modification of a few others.

Major Change 3: Spell Completion & Spell Trigger items are also gone (Poof). UMD is now a universal skill for all spellcasters.

I'd really love some feedback on these proposed changes. I contemplated bringing up the other stuff we want to change but decided Magic is a good place to start.

[herrhauptmann]

Is there still the arcane/divine split?
I know the line blurs a little when arcane classes like bard get Cure spells, but I think it important that wizards not get access to spells like Miracle while clerics can't cast Wish. (I know they're essentially the same in effect, but it's a good example of what I mean)

What exactly do you intend to do with this change?

What do you mean by " all spellcasters will have a Patron/Source/Bloodline?" Bloodline and patron are obvious, but Source? Someone is a normal guy until they stumble upon a magic rock that turns them into a sorcerer?

When the Angel/Demon/Elemental bloodline feats came out, I remember a lot of complaints about how all sorcerers/bards were now the descendants of planar interlopers. You're now forcing everyone to do exactly that. Is that a matter of making crunch fit the fluff of your world?
Will bloodlines now have an effect on which spells you get? Fluff-wise I can't see a water elemental bloodline granting access to fire spells.
Now if someone wants to be a wizard arcane caster, they've either got the bloodline, or they don't. If they don't, they're stuck waiting until the DM gives them a spellcasting maguffin.
Why did you get rid of prepared casters? Particularly wizards. Was there something in Vancian casting you didn't like?

[Urpriest]

My Brother & I are in the process of making a campaign world (from the ground up) & we want to tinker with magic a bit. I started a thread on the homebrew forums & it didn't get much of a response so I figured I'd try here for ideas & insights to add to the new world.

I'd like thoughts on how these changes would affect game balance, flavor, and interest in the game.

Major Change 1: No more Class Spell Lists. All spells will be off of one list that casters will pick their spells known from. In the case of spells that appear as different level spells on different classes' lists, we will have to pick one and assign it to said level. Casters will be limited in their selection by a few different factors. Aside from DM's adjudication, all spellcasters will have a Patron/Source/Bloodline for their spells and not all sources grant all spells. (We are considering using Spell Descriptors to divide up the spell access.)

Major Change 2: No more prepared casters. (Poof) hand waved away. Spellbooks are now for the purposes of spell research and cataloging said spells. This does remove a couple classes from play & requires the modification of a few others.

Major Change 3: Spell Completion & Spell Trigger items are also gone (Poof). UMD is now a universal skill for all spellcasters.

I'd really love some feedback on these proposed changes. I contemplated bringing up the other stuff we want to change but decided Magic is a good place to start.

Change 1 doesn't change anything in principle. If each Source gave the same spells that the class used to give then the situation is exactly the same. So the only way this is different is if you make the Sources give different spells than the classes already do...at which point, you might as well just change the class spell lists and drop the rest of the rule altogether. So the question becomes, what do you think the class spell lists should be?

Change 2 depends on which classes you're modifying. Is the Wizard made spontaneous, or simply gotten rid of? Where are you getting the spells known tables? Broadly speaking this isn't a terrible idea, but it would be useful to hear some of your motivation.

Change 3 seems odd. UMD loses most of its luster if spell completion and spell trigger items don't exist, and it becomes just about cheating item requirements. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing you have much reason, thematic or balance-wise, to glue on to casters.

[rollforeigninit]

I see I failed all my interpersonal communication rolls......

On change 1- Yes, Different sources will provide different spells known. It won't be a full list like Beguiler, Dread Necro, etc. Each Source, be it bloodlines, pacts, gods or anything else will grant certain descriptors & disallow others. We do plan to get rid of the Arcane/Divine dichotomy. Ancestry is only one way to get power (though, arguably, it's the easiest to avoid oversight with.) Most full casters will use the Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Oracle table for spells/day /spells known.

On Change 2- Wizards are the only one that is pft gone definitely from core. Archivists will probably be out as well. We are trying to get rid of ANYONE having access to their whole spell list at all, ever. Clerics & Druids will probably use the Spontaneous Caster Versions in UA. Rangers & Paladins Will get a new Spells Known chart.

On Change 3- I REALLY SCREWED THIS ONE UP. The point of getting rid of spell trigger & completion items was to eliminate casters from being able to use EVERY wand or staff in the game with out any risk. I fail. By spell completeion & spell trigger items being gone I did not mean that staves & wands (etc) ceased to exist, just that they work now exclusively via UMD.

[rollforeigninit]

Is there still the arcane/divine split?
I know the line blurs a little when arcane classes like bard get Cure spells, but I think it important that wizards not get access to spells like Miracle while clerics can't cast Wish. (I know they're essentially the same in effect, but it's a good example of what I mean)

Addressing Wish (& Limited) & Miracle is coming some other time. Will probably get rid of direct spell emulation altogether making Miracle an entreaty to a Power of some kind (god usually) requesting divine intervention. L Wish will probably be gone altogether & Wish will become the provenance of powerful outsiders to grant & must be phrased with "I wish..." those are all just ballpark ideas.

[Urpriest]

I see I failed all my interpersonal communication rolls......

On change 1- Yes, Different sources will provide different spells known. It won't be a full list like Beguiler, Dread Necro, etc. Each Source, be it bloodlines, pacts, gods or anything else will grant certain descriptors & disallow others. We do plan to get rid of the Arcane/Divine dichotomy. Ancestry is only one way to get power (though, arguably, it's the easiest to avoid oversight with.) Most full casters will use the Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Oracle table for spells/day /spells known.

On Change 2- Wizards are the only one that is pft gone definitely from core. Archivists will probably be out as well. We are trying to get rid of ANYONE having access to their whole spell list at all, ever. Clerics & Druids will probably use the Spontaneous Caster Versions in UA. Rangers & Paladins Will get a new Spells Known chart.

On Change 3- I REALLY SCREWED THIS ONE UP. The point of getting rid of spell trigger & completion items was to eliminate casters from being able to use EVERY wand or staff in the game with out any risk. I fail. By spell completeion & spell trigger items being gone I did not mean that staves & wands (etc) ceased to exist, just that they work now exclusively via UMD.

Ok, so the idea is leaning towards an all-spontaneous magic system, to obviate Batman-types and Tier 1 in general? I dig. Let's think a little about the details though.

On Change 1: Be aware that spell lists are generally tailored to their class. Clerics get (mostly) worse spells than Wizards, but have a better chassis. Witches have a more annoying spells known mechanic than Wizards, but get more versatile lists. So you probably want the Patrons/Sources/etc. to be class-specific, rather than generic to multiple classes. At the very least you want restrictions about which classes can pick up which Patrons. From there, it really all depends what sort of lists you put together.

On Change 3: The thing is, UMD is a skill check, and skill checks are inherently optimizable and binary. If a character wants to make skill checks reliably, they can. So this doesn't really slow your casters down, especially the Cha-based ones.

[rollforeigninit]

Ok, so the idea is leaning towards an all-spontaneous magic system, to obviate Batman-types and Tier 1 in general? I dig. Let's think a little about the details though.

On Change 1: Be aware that spell lists are generally tailored to their class. Clerics get (mostly) worse spells than Wizards, but have a better chassis. Witches have a more annoying spells known mechanic than Wizards, but get more versatile lists. So you probably want the Patrons/Sources/etc. to be class-specific, rather than generic to multiple classes. At the very least you want restrictions about which classes can pick up which Patrons. From there, it really all depends what sort of lists you put together.

On Change 3: The thing is, UMD is a skill check, and skill checks are inherently optimizable and binary. If a character wants to make skill checks reliably, they can. So this doesn't really slow your casters down, especially the Cha-based ones.

Yep, you got it. There are good fluffy reasons for the lack of Prepared spellcasters as well but yes you have the crux of it. The Patrons & sources will indeed be differentiated according to class. I plan to move to the Homebrew forums when more specifics are to be addressed.

Roughly, Sorcs are the primary "arcane flavored" caster with the broadest access to spells & weakest chassis they will (depending on access) have access to healing though. Clerics, Druids, Oracles, will all have similar levels of access to spells but that's TBD. Half & partial casters will come along later, I think.

Okay, Change 3 might be useless, I can cope.