3.5 Unhappy Duskblade

[shortnsweet456]

I am the DM of a 3.5 game for people who are relatively new to D&D. I have one character who is currently a dragon shaman 1/dusk-blade 3. We leveled up last week, and he is extremely unhappy with the lack of versatility of his spell list. To fix it, he wanted to take a level in sorcerer. His stat array is

Str- 18 Dex- 12 Con-13 Int- 14 Wis- 10 Cha- 8

He has max 29 hit points. Because of where he put his stats, I told him sorcerer really isn't a good fit for him, and explained that by going into too many things he will make himself weaker than the rest of the party (lvl 5 beguiler, level 5 barbarian w/ a lycanthropy template to lion applied instead of rage, lvl 5 necromancer, lvl 5 warblade). However, he really wants to pick up another class for spell versatility, are there any classes that would give him that?

[Barsoom]

Here's what I did with my duskblade PC: "Go over the wizard/sorcerer spell list. If you find something interesting that's in-flavor for a spell-slinging, sword-wielding magical warrior, bring it to me and we'll talk about it."

He ended up choosing three spells, none of which are overpowered or unbalancing. Everyone's happy.

[Alabenson]

That largely depends by what he means by "spell versatility"; Is there a specific area of spellcasting that he wants to improve in, does he want to have more general utility, or does he simply want spellcasting to be a more central aspect of his character?

[Urpriest]

Eventually he could take the Sand Shaper prestige class, which gives lots of spells known. Taking another level of a base class won't help much, since level 1 spells go out of style pretty fast for the most part.

[Amnestic]

He has max 29 hit points. Because of where he put his stats, I told him sorcerer really isn't a good fit for him,

With an 8 charisma, you're not wrong - he wouldn't be able to cast anything from his sorcerer levels.



However, he really wants to pick up another class for spell versatility, are there any classes that would give him that?

Wizard is the king of (arcane) spell versatility, and his Int synergy.

[Failed Phantasm]

Rainbow Servant is an option if he's non-evil and non-chaotic, assuming you haven't already banned that PrC (which is reasonable if your party isn't really high-op). If he sticks with Duskblade for one more level until Duskblade 9, he'll gain the 3rd level arcane spells he needs to qualify but he'd also need to get to 10th level in the PrC before he picks up the ability to learn spells from the Cleric list. He does get the Good domain at level 1, though, which grants him a few spells for added versatility. I... think. I'm away from my books, so I don't remember exactly how giving domains to non-Clerics is supposed to work.

To say nothing of the fact that he'll either need to sink every attribute increase he gets into Intelligence or else take some sovereign glue and attach a +6 headband of intellect to his head, because he won't be able to cast 9ths without at least 19 Int. Forgot Duskblades don't get 9th level spells. He still needs one more Int to cast 5th level spells, though the reduced maximum spell level might actually make this PrC more palatable to you as a DM, at least in this case.

EDIT: Heh. Almost one reply a minute.

EDIT 2: There's also that text vs. table issue with Rainbow Servant.

EDIT 3: I forgot how late Duskblades get 3rd level spells. Unless you're willing to change the requirement to 2nd level spells, Rainbow Servant is probably not a realistic option for your player unless your game will run to level 20. His poor mental stats are still a problem, though.

[Barsoom]

With an 8 charisma, you're not wrong - he wouldn't be able to cast anything from his sorcerer levels.He will gain a familiar though! Which is more than the Lightning Warrior ever gets.

[Blueiji]

Str- 18 Dex- 12 Con-13 Int- 14 Wis- 10 Cha- 8

With an 8 Charisma he will be incapable to casting ANY Sorcerer spells.

From the Player's Handbook: To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

[Amnestic]

He will gain a familiar though! Which is more than the Lightning Warrior ever gets.

Poor Lightning Warrior :smallfrown:

[shortnsweet456]

That largely depends by what he means by "spell versatility"; Is there a specific area of spellcasting that he wants to improve in, does he want to have more general utility, or does he simply want spellcasting to be a more central aspect of his character?

From what I understand, he just wants access to more spells overall. The duskblade spell list is pretty limited, but primarily more ranged spells would be preferable for him.

[Alabenson]

From what I understand, he just wants access to more spells overall. The duskblade spell list is pretty limited, but primarily more ranged spells would be preferable for him.

Frankly, if spellcasting is very important to your player, and he isn't satisfied with the spellcasting provided by Duskblade, then depending on the optimization level of the group you might want to talk to him about rolling up a new character.
Going into a full casting class at this level would be pointless, as the character would be hopelessly behind the rest of the party in spellcasting ability, and most of the tricks for adding spells to ones list would either come online much later, are fairly high-op, or both.

[Matticussama]

If he wants to play a Gish with more spell versatility, then the player might want to consider re-rolling a Battle Sorcerer. It will allow the player to keep the same theme as the Duskblade - armored fighter-mage, capable of blasting spells and engaging in melee - but choose the spells known to let him fulfill the role that he wants.

He looses out on Arcane Channeling, but there is always the Arcane Strike feat from Complete Arcane to help pump out extra damage in melee.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I suggest he take a level of bard then increase duskblade casting at every level until he gets 3rd level spells and go sublime cord. unfortunately since he took a level in dragon shaman he can't take a level in sublime cord until lv12. He could also grab a good independent casting class with less requirements.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Given the abysmal build it looks like he's aiming for, I'd even consider homebrewing a PrC for the guy to mix Dragon Shaman and Duskblade, on top of added spells known.

Outlining what I'm thinking:

Stupid prereqs he'll hit anyway like the draconic aura, arcane channeling and Know: Arcane 8 ranks
Full casting, 3/4 BA, good Fort/Will
Add all class levels to levels of an aura-granting class the character already possessed for the auras' purposes.
Every even-numbered level adds a spell known to the character's class spell list, selected from all spells available to the character's totem dragon. (Usually Sorc/Wiz spells with the occasional cleric domain)
First level gets two claw attacks; Fifth level allows a spell to be channeled through a full round attack using only claws as a full round action (I'd prefer to word in a way to allow rapidstrike, but that's not really important).
Then maybe throw a couple other draconic abilities in like blindsense or frightful presence based on the character's HD. Avoid the ones that define the Dragon Shaman (breath weapon, wings)
Then throw on a capstone of immunity to the totem dragon's element, DR/magic (just fluff) and dragon type - ideally with a qualification that the character may still opt to be affected by spells and effects that affect the character's prior creature type.

Hopefully, it's good enough to be a no-brainer for Dragon Shaman/Duskblade builds which may or may not have dipped a wasted Sorcerer level, but not good enough for the average duskblade to feel pressured to get in and not redundant enough with the Dragon Shaman's abilities to just be a DS++.

[gorfnab]

1 level of Mage of the Arcane Order will get the Duskblade access to 1st -3rd level wizard spells. 4 levels of Mage of the Arcane Order will get 4th - 6th level wizard spells.

With your current players build you could do something like: Dragon Shaman 1/ Duskblade 13/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Abjurant Champion 2.

[Barsoom]

Unfortunately MotAO, by strict RAW, doesn't work with Duskblade. Or rather, it works, but much worse than you think. Here's why:


A spellcaster can call only for a spell of a level that he could normally cast

Let's say a Duskblade finds himself in need of an Animade Dead spell. What level is this spell? For a Sorcerer or Wizard, level 4. For a Cleric, level 3. For a Duskblade ... uhm, for a Duskblade, its level is "undefined". He can't cast spells of level "undefined". He can still summon from the pool spells that are normally on the Duskblade list (Animalistic Power, Dimension Hop, etc), but not spells outside his spell list.

[Grim Reader]

Honestly, I think the best advice for the player might be to rebuild the character as a PF Magus. I think thats the best fit for him.

Beyond that, I assume the player is aware that if you want to do both fighting and magic, you wont be quite as good in either as someone who specializes.

Other options:

As Urpriest said, a dip in Sand Shaper sounds like it would give him what he wants. Thats got the advantage of aspiration, and you can play up the "bargaining with unclean spirits for power" aspect.

A bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium.

Magic items: Knowstones, Runestaffs and scrolls.

There is also Suel Arcanamach and Knight of the Weave....better than taking another first level in a base class, except they key of CHA!

[SciChronic]

to be honest, i suggest that new players should be limited in their classes. restrict them to PHB 1&2, and DMG.

They are green, and don't understand class synergies quite yet, and when you throw dozens of options at them, they will just pick things at random whose names sound interesting. Limit their pool or class choices, and as they understand the game, give them break points where they can re-roll or re-class with the same stat allotment for free. (my first DM allowed me to do this when i became overly frustrated with an elf sorcerer i had rolled that had 14hp at level 6) Give them PDF copies of the books and have them read through it when they can, the initial learning curve is the hardest part in D&D.

An alternative option could be for you to pre-roll up some characters, and have your players pick from them. It sucks to have your options limited in this way, i know, but it allows you to teach them some of the more complex things and give advice, then when the time comes you could have everyone roll up characters themselves and have them encounter their old selves as NPCs.

[Vaz]

Unfortunately MotAO, by strict RAW, doesn't work with Duskblade. Or rather, it works, but much worse than you think. Here's why:



Let's say a Duskblade finds himself in need of an Animade Dead spell. What level is this spell? For a Sorcerer or Wizard, level 4. For a Cleric, level 3. For a Duskblade ... uhm, for a Duskblade, its level is "undefined". He can't cast spells of level "undefined". He can still summon from the pool spells that are normally on the Duskblade list (Animalistic Power, Dimension Hop, etc), but not spells outside his spell list.

That could easily be understood (and how I understood it) to mean that any spell can be called for, provided that it's a Sor/Wiz spell of a level that is equal to or lower than the highest current level of access.

[jokeaccount]

If you want to make him happy in my opinion let him rebuild his char into a 5th level psychic warrior.

From the looks of it he was actually hoping to achieve the sword slinging & spell casting universal oober-character we see in anime and stuff and since he's new he doesn't know how to do it effectively. Let him choose the psychic warrior who gets 3/4 bab, nice powers and some bonus feats like the fighter. Basic stuff. He doesn't need spell preparation and the casting system he will use is akin to the video-game rpg system with "mana points" being your resource.

Also tell him this: "I shouldn't be doing this pal, but trust me Dragon Shaman suxx and duskblade is mediocre at best without arcane strike abuse (which he doesn't know how to do). Get dat lvl 5 psychic warrior instead and you'll be a happy panda".

[sir_argenon]

one feat(touchstone) and just dip sandshaper and be done with it.

[Spuddles]

1 level of wizard for the spellbook and the feat versatile spellcaster will let him sacrifice two lower level slots for a higher level one to cast any spell he knows. A wizard can learn any spell via a spellcraft check, some time, and gold invested on magical materials.

Go with martial wizard variant from unearthed arcana and trade the scribe scroll feat for a bonus fighter feat. Also check out the variant wizards in the same book. Domain wizard for more spells or a specialist for a bonus feat or something by trading out the familiar.

[NeoPhoenix0]

versatile spellcaster doesn't work with wizards. it let's you use 2 spell slots, not prepared spells to cast a higher level spell. it also does not give the wizard the ability to prepare a higher level spell.

edit: it is however a great feat for duskblade if he stays the course.

[Darrin]

It sounds like all you need to do is kitbash a homebrew feat:

ARCANE SPELL LORE [GENERAL]
You have conducted extensive research into ancient magical lore and expanded your understanding of arcane spells, allowing you to add additional spells to your spell list.
Prerequisites: Duskblade 1
Benefit: For each level of spells the Duskblade can cast, the Duskblade may select one additional spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list and add it to his own Duskblade spell list. Each spell must be from one of the following schools: abjuration, conjuration, evocation, necromancy, or transmutation. These new spells may be learned as known spells whenever the Duskblade is allowed to add to or change his known spells. In addition, these new spells may be cast with spell trigger or spell completion items, even if they are not currently known spells for the Duskblade. The decision on which spells to add must be made when this feat is first taken (for spell levels he can already cast) or when the Duskblade gains the ability to cast his next level of spells.
Special: A Duskblade may gain this feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level instead of gaining Combat Casting.

[Frosty]

If we're going to use homebrew anyways, why not save yourself some work and use this class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) instead? It does the same thing, except better and the spell list is MUCH more versatile.

[Spuddles]

versatile spellcaster doesn't work with wizards. it let's you use 2 spell slots, not prepared spells to cast a higher level spell. it also does not give the wizard the ability to prepare a higher level spell.

edit: it is however a great feat for duskblade if he stays the course.

1) don't bother preparing spells
2) use duskblade spell slots to cast wizard spells

[Talionis]

Well at level 4 you probably have to wait till level 5 or 6 for most prestige classes, but that might give him light at the end of the tunnel. If you add another class you are starting a whole new spell pool with low level spells. That probably isn't what your player wants, he wants to add spells to his Duskblade list.


Items. I think there are some items that are in the Sorcerers Handbook that add spells to the spell list. This would be my first solution. Pick a spell that gives him a little more flexibility that isn't over powered. Let him find the magic item. Immediate problem solved.


Down the road, there are many prestige classes that can add spells to your spell list. I think there is a handbook for that. Here is a forum thread on the subject: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197165. Here is the Handbook on adding spells to a spell list: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b9svfk3g0teh53c27dmtqbg55&topic=2777.0


I'm pretty sure that these handbooks cover the items that add spells to spell lists.


Second, Have him read the Duskblade Handbook. It goes over spells and may give him a better idea of how best to use the spells he does have: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b9svfk3g0teh53c27dmtqbg55&topic=525.0


I think this may help. The other thing is Duskblade can be a little unfun to level, they don't know a lot of spells and seem to only have a few tricks. Also you kind of are stuck in the class until level 13 because that Full Attack Channelling is bonkers good. But the ride can suck.


The Gish Handbook may also help so that he can see what other options are availed to him: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b9svfk3g0teh53c27dmtqbg55&topic=8786.0


Unfortunately, Duskblades don't have a lot of flexibilty in the feats they choose or ways to optimize, but he can do well what Duskblades do well.


You can skip some levels. Often I don't play low level games. We all start at level 8 ish. This way characters have built in far more options and neat things they can do. When I play low level stuff we tend to play E6 games and we keep the game a little simpler.


Homebrew is your other option. I'm not a fan of Homebrew because I think its ripe for not being balanced and having a character jealous of what another character has. But making a prestige class to mix his abilities and add a few spells to the Duskblade spell list should not be unbalanced. So little fleshing out was ever done of Dragon Shaman that if you wanted to make a prestige class to help it the only way is Homebrew. You might want to involve other players in okaying the abilities of any Homebrew prestige class to end around any other players who might eventually get upset.


Last, Duskblade is a little complicated to play and probably is hard for new players. New players sometimes need help to stay interested so bend the rules if you need to. Don't make him overly powerful, but find ways to compromise.

[NeoPhoenix0]

1) don't bother preparing spells

it doesn't grant a wizard the ability to cast spontaneously either.


2) use duskblade spell slots to cast wizard spells

since your getting this RAW it doesn't let you use wizard spells at all because wizards don't know any spells, thats why they need a spellbook.

link to feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/)

[Spuddles]

it doesn't grant a wizard the ability to cast spontaneously either.

you qualify with duskblade, dub


since your getting this RAW it doesn't let you use wizard spells at all because wizards don't know any spells, thats why they need a spellbook.

link to feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/)

Wizards "know" spells. Get your PHB out and read the wizard section.


This is a well known exploit and the RAW on it is virtually air tight.

[NeoPhoenix0]

ok researched the cheese. so your plan seems to be to take a bunch of wizard levels and cast his lv 1 and 2 spells using his lv 0 and 1 duskblade slots?

[Spuddles]

ok researched the cheese. so your plan seems to be to take a bunch of wizard levels and cast his lv 1 and 2 spells using his lv 0 and 1 duskblade slots?

Wizard1/duskblade19. Use duskblade slots to cast higher level wizard spells. A wizard knows a spell it it's in his spellbook. The only real mechanical constraint on what can be added to your spellbook is a mere spellcraft check. Ergo, you can learn spells like a wizard (because you are a wizard). Normally you wouldn't be able to cast them, lacking spell slots, but because you are a versatile spellcaster, it just takes more slots than usual.

If you allow rules compendium, you don't even need a level of wizard. There's a faerun feat that gives you a spellbook.

[Barsoom]

Wizard1/duskblade19. Use duskblade slots to cast higher level wizard spells. A wizard knows a spell it it's in his spellbook. The only real mechanical constraint on what can be added to your spellbook is a mere spellcraft check. Ergo, you can learn spells like a wizard (because you are a wizard). Normally you wouldn't be able to cast them, lacking spell slots, but because you are a versatile spellcaster, it just takes more slots than usual.

If you allow rules compendium, you don't even need a level of wizard. There's a faerun feat that gives you a spellbook.

I am in awe. I see now why it works by RAW. As an aside question, what's your opinion on this exploit in a practical game? Is it the level of optimization usually reserved for TO contests, or can you actually play this at a table?

[DarkSonic1337]

ok researched the cheese. so your plan seems to be to take a bunch of wizard levels and cast his lv 1 and 2 spells using his lv 0 and 1 duskblade slots?

No, the plan is to take ONE level of wizard to get a spellbook and write spells into it with appropriate spellcraft checks and time (even of levels he currently can't cast via wizard levels). The wizard explicitly KNOWS these spells even if he is unable to cast them as he "knows" every spell in his spellbook.

Then use the versatile spellcaster feat to burn DUSKBLADE spellslots to cast the wizard spells that he knows.

Very cheesy, but technically legal. I frankly don't recommend it. He'd be better off simply talking with his DM about expanding the duskblade spelllist to include more spells.

edit:swordsage'd

[NeoPhoenix0]

edit: never mind

[WhatBigTeeth]

When a rules usage relies on multiple unintuitive jumps that look like writer oversight (spontaneously casting from another class, spontaneously casting from a spellbook, and probably spontaneously casting spells above the normal spell level) and allows characters to be easily built that cast the same spells as a Wizard from the same spellbooks, but cast those spells earlier and spontaneously, it's a pretty good sign that P.O. commandments are being broken.

[Urpriest]

to be honest, i suggest that new players should be limited in their classes. restrict them to PHB 1&2, and DMG.

Dragon Shaman and Duskblade are from the PHBII....

[Grim Reader]

Wizard1/duskblade19. Use duskblade slots to cast higher level wizard spells. A wizard knows a spell it it's in his spellbook. The only real mechanical constraint on what can be added to your spellbook is a mere spellcraft check. Ergo, you can learn spells like a wizard (because you are a wizard). Normally you wouldn't be able to cast them, lacking spell slots, but because you are a versatile spellcaster, it just takes more slots than usual.

If you allow rules compendium, you don't even need a level of wizard. There's a faerun feat that gives you a spellbook.

RAW legal, but one of those exploits that can get you banned form many tables. Even though it is not the most over powered. You'll be lagging a Wizard in spell levles, getting 6th level spells at level 18. You do get an unprecedented level of spells known though.

[Spuddles]

RAW legal, but one of those exploits that can get you banned form many tables. Even though it is not the most over powered. You'll be lagging a Wizard in spell levles, getting 6th level spells at level 18. You do get an unprecedented level of spells known though.

If you have the time & resources to find them and copy them, yeah. But spontaneous access to what could amount to the whole wiz list is pretty nasty.

[Grim Reader]

If you have the time & resources to find them and copy them, yeah. But spontaneous access to what could amount to the whole wiz list is pretty nasty.

Well, Wizard list of 6th level and below. But yes, it is pretty nasty, especially since you get the fullchannel etc Duskblade abilities. Not sure if you'd call it more powerful than a Duskblade/Sublime Chord build with 9th level spells, tho.

[WhatBigTeeth]

The part of the combination which makes me really doubt it sees play anywhere - even if none of the individual rulings are treated as writer oversights - is that if it's permissible for a Duskblade, it presumably also is for a beguiler. And at that point, you have spontaneous wizard or archivist casting advancing at the normal wizard/archivist advancement rate. And with Magical Training, the spell level advancement is even faster than the wizard or archivist.

The combination would presumably also be permissible for the Sublime Chord, which would mean things like spontaneous archivist and wizard faster than either base class, so treating it as an alternative to SC rather than a supplement to SC is not quite appropriate.

[Spuddles]

The part of the combination which makes me really doubt it sees play anywhere - even if none of the individual rulings are treated as writer oversights - is that if it's permissible for a Duskblade, it presumably also is for a beguiler. And at that point, you have spontaneous wizard or archivist casting advancing at the normal wizard/archivist advancement rate. And with Magical Training, the spell level advancement is even faster than the wizard or archivist.

The combination would presumably also be permissible for the Sublime Chord, which would mean things like spontaneous archivist and wizard faster than either base class, so treating it as an alternative to SC rather than a supplement to SC is not quite appropriate.

It's awesome! Two feats pretty much make wizard one of the least useful full casters, save for a few niche builds using ACFs.

[Talionis]

Not going to touch legality on Wizard 1, Duskblade 19. I don't think my DM would allow it. I might depending on the campaign. I definitely wouldn't for new players.

But if you allow the above interpretation, what would keep you from Wizard 1, Duskblade 13 into Sublime Chord. Duskblade is basically dead after level 13.

[Spuddles]

Not going to touch legality on Wizard 1, Duskblade 19. I don't think my DM would allow it. I might depending on the campaign. I definitely wouldn't for new players.

But if you allow the above interpretation, what would keep you from Wizard 1, Duskblade 13 into Sublime Chord. Duskblade is basically dead after level 13.

Because you went Ur-Chord instead for double 9s & DMM Persisted some full BAB?

[only1doug]

Not going to touch legality on Wizard 1, Duskblade 19. I don't think my DM would allow it. I might depending on the campaign. I definitely wouldn't for new players.

But if you allow the above interpretation, what would keep you from Wizard 1, Duskblade 13 into Sublime Chord. Duskblade is basically dead after level 13.

followed by Abjurant champion advancing sublime chord casting presumably?

Wiz1/Duskblade13/SubChrd1/AbChamp5..... nice gish build

[NeoPhoenix0]

you just need to figure out how to get bardic music to qualify for sublime chord.

[Blackhawk748]

im gonna be honest here, Duskblades need to have their list expanded, becasue as far as i know it hasn't even with all the splatbooks that came out after, so im all for "tell me the spell and we can discuss it"

[Frosty]

I still say "Why not go Magus" instead? You've GOT an expanded spell list right there.

[Barsoom]

Magus is good, but some players just like the Arcane Channeling thing.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I still say "Why not go Magus" instead? You've GOT an expanded spell list right there.

based off of the thread title i assumed he wanted 3.5 material not 3.P or pathfinder.

[Frosty]

based off of the thread title i assumed he wanted 3.5 material not 3.P or pathfinder.
They were talking about homebrew anyways, so...

[NeoPhoenix0]

They were talking about homebrew anyways, so...

fair enough. i like the duskblade more though because i have had many fun times with the class apart from nuking bosses in one round.

edit: such as quick cast dimension hop for a make shift bleach style flash step and escape from an ambush that captured the rest of the party.

oddly enough they escaped at the same time i rescued them.