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Zahhak
2013-05-07, 12:37 AM
(Note that due to subject matter I'm going to use the Gender-Neutral pronoun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Summary) "zhe" in reference to V and other elves)

Obviously the real world reason why the sex of V and other elves is a running gag is to play on the joke of elves (especially male elves) usually having an ambiguous or androgynous sex, that is, both sexes look relatively similar. But I have a theory on the in-world reason why V and other elves have an ambiguous sex: they are not male-female sexed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system).

Edited in: OK, I was tired when I wrote this, and rereading it I realized I screwed a few things up that I cannot really fix. The basic point I was trying to make is that elves have a chromosomal difference that reduces noticeable sex differences and may even change their sexes from a strict male-female dichotomy like in humans, so their culture does not have a concept of "gender", but still allows them to reproduce with other humanoids. And this is partially reinforced by 628/629 where the black dragon says "my husband" and "your mate", which would a weird thing to say unless the black dragon knows that elves are not on a strict male-female dichotomy.

I spoile tagged the rest of the original post so its still here, but you can ignore what I screwed up. Also, I managed to flip sex/gender, so I'm going to fix that too.

I'm not going to get into human social ideas on a third (or fourth, or fifth) sex, but what I will say is this: in humans sex is defined primarily by chromosome, with males having XY and female having XX chromosomes, and the secondary way we define sex is by your genitals.

However, this is not always the case. While XX and XY chromosomal combinations are the most common, it is far from the only possible combination, with basically any mixture possible, including things like XXY, which is common enough that there is a specific name (Klinefelter syndrome), and things like XXYY syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXYY), and numerous others. There are literally hundreds of combinations of chromosomes outside of the usual XY-XX dichotomy. And there's a thing called "ambiguous genitals" that I wont link to, but, basically, you have one set of genitals, and pieces of another. So, male-female isn't really a strict or accurate dichotomy.

So, how does this tie into OOTS elves? Simple: they do not determine sex on a XX-XY dichotomy, but do use X and Y chromosomes for sex selection, which allows them to reproduce with non-elves. And XXY males and XYY females? They have very similar body types.

This explains several things in-universe, like the long running gag about elvish sex being hard to distinguish, V missing gags that rely on sex differences (like when Roy was a lady), zhir's use of "mate" rather than "husband" or "wife", and so on. And why would elves, if they didn't have a male-female dichotomy like in humans (and presumably other humanoid races in OOTS) use man/woman and husband/wife? They would have equivalent terms, but it would not be man/woman and husband/wife, and there would be no real translation into common so "mate" and other gender-neutral pronouns would pretty much have to be the default.

Or I'm just way over thinking a comedy series. But hey, what nerd hasn't?

ti'esar
2013-05-07, 12:44 AM
I think it's more likely that elves merely lack gender as a societal concept.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 12:46 AM
Yeah, that could explain a lot too. But my theory involves a bit more science, and is therefore more cool (we call that Zahhak's Law, btw)

Edit: Oh, and in 629 (aside from a lot of 'parent'/'other parent') the dragon says 'your mate' but in 628 says 'his father'. This means that the Black Dragon that is about to kill V is either really accepting of an elven cultural concept that gender does not exist, or that the dragon knows that husband/wife doesn't really apply, because elves are not on a strict male-female dichotomy.

wingnutx
2013-05-07, 01:16 AM
What would happen if V donned the 'belt of gender changing'?

Bulldog Psion
2013-05-07, 01:20 AM
What would happen if V donned the 'belt of gender changing'?

Nobody would be able to tell the difference. :smallbiggrin:

Steven
2013-05-07, 01:21 AM
So, how does this tie into OOTS elves? Simple: they do not determine sex on a XX-XY dichotomy, but do use X and Y chromosomes for gender selection, which allows them to reproduce with non-elves. And XXY males and XYY females? They have very similar body types.

Unless I'm misreading things you can't have a xyy female. In fact as soon as you throw in a y you've got a male.

I could be misreading and that could just be some kind of sexist defaulting to male thing but... Yeah.

Vinyadan
2013-05-07, 01:26 AM
Nobody would be able to tell the difference. :smallbiggrin:

Starting by him.

rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-07, 01:56 AM
What would happen if V donned the 'belt of gender changing'?

Nothing.

666

B. Dandelion
2013-05-07, 02:10 AM
Unless I'm misreading things you can't have a xyy female. In fact as soon as you throw in a y you've got a male.

I could be misreading and that could just be some kind of sexist defaulting to male thing but... Yeah.

No, I am pretty sure you're correct. XXY and XYY are male chromosomal disorders. Female chromosomal disorders include X and XXX.

Note that you can have a chromosomal disorder of only one X, but not the equivalent for Y. The X and Y are not doing the same exact thing only for the opposite sex. The X does a little bit more and the Y does some other things entirely. It may sound a little sexist to imply one chromosome "does more", but X is not the stand in for female leaving Y for male. Both chromosomes are essential to human reproduction.

(Birds apparently do it the other way around. Women have the XY equivalent and men the XX. Again, there's one chromosome both sexes need. Also there's the XX/X0 system -- XX=female and X=male. See, it doesn't reduce to male=Y woman=X.)

You can have an XY female with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. It's not a chromosomal disorder -- well, it's carried on the chromosome, but it's not like XXY or the others. She can't produce female gametes or go through pregnancy, although I should be more clear in pointing out here that her condition simply makes for a normal but infertile woman in every other respect. It's also possible to have an XX male, which is a chromosomal disorder.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 02:26 AM
It's late, but B. Dandelion got it. My point was that when you leave the traditional XX-XY dichotomy, you usually get more ambiguous genders.

Clertar
2013-05-07, 05:21 AM
I'd just like that in this thread we're speaking about sex, not about gender. Regardless of the anglosaxon world's puritan fear of that word.

Steven
2013-05-07, 05:42 AM
Actually I'd say we're talking about both. The OP is suggesting that due to a lack of physical sex characteristics elves would lack the culturally enforced idea of binary gender roles we see in human societies.

Clertar
2013-05-07, 06:20 AM
True, but what we (and in-comic characters) cannot tell is V's sex, not the gender.

Haleth
2013-05-07, 06:23 AM
What would happen if V donned the 'belt of gender changing'?

The universe would implode. :smallbiggrin:

Poppy Appletree
2013-05-07, 10:21 AM
No, I am pretty sure you're correct. XXY and XYY are male chromosomal disorders. Female chromosomal disorders include X and XXX.

Note that you can have a chromosomal disorder of only one X, but not the equivalent for Y. The X and Y are not doing the same exact thing only for the opposite sex. The X does a little bit more and the Y does some other things entirely. It may sound a little sexist to imply one chromosome "does more", but X is not the stand in for female leaving Y for male. Both chromosomes are essential to human reproduction.

(Birds apparently do it the other way around. Women have the XY equivalent and men the XX. Again, there's one chromosome both sexes need. Also there's the XX/X0 system -- XX=female and X=male. See, it doesn't reduce to male=Y woman=X.)

You can have an XY female with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, but she can't produce female gametes or go through pregnancy. It's not a chromosomal disorder either -- her chromosomes are fine, for a man. It's also possible to have an XX male, which is.

First of all, elves don't have to have the same chromosomes as humans. Second of all, this is a fantasy comic, and chromosomes might not even be a thing in the game world; it definitely wouldn't be something anyone would know about, due to the technology/science level of the setting. As such, this detail is irrelevant, and given that almost nobody on the forums is going to be a geneticist, much less a geneticist who specialises in intersex conditions, this is a fruitless conversation point that is simply going to spread misinformation about a topic which is already highly misunderstood.

People with CAIS pretty much invariably identify as women, because the same process of making their body insensitive to masculinising hormones affects their brain development. Stating that it isn't a chromosomal abnormality is misleading, because it is an intersex condition. Implying that a CAIS woman is a man is insulting, and your comment prior to that acts like they should not be seen as women.

EDIT: This is really also a response to the OP as well.

martianmister
2013-05-07, 11:17 AM
S/he is probably not genderless/sexless. In the prequel On the Origin of PCs, V fills out an application form, and did spill some ink blot where the gender blank is. When Roy calls this to V's attention, V said that it was a quill malfunction, and suggests using owl feathers in the future. When Roy asks V to write in the correct answer next to the blot, V, assumed Roy could see what gender he/she is, and doesn't think the issue is something worth wasting his/her time, tells him to feel free to put it in himself, if it's that crucial. Roy decides that it's really not that important.

Shred-Bot
2013-05-07, 11:31 AM
S/he is probably not genderless/sexless. In the prequel On the Origin of PCs, V fills out an application form, and did spill some ink blot where the gender blank is. When Roy calls this to V's attention, V said that it was a quill malfunction, and suggests using owl feathers in the future. When Roy asks V to write in the correct answer next to the blot, V, assumed Roy could see what gender he/she is, and doesn't think the issue is something worth wasting his/her time, tells him to feel free to put it in himself, if it's that crucial. Roy decides that it's really not that important.

I'm assuming V had written "Yes, Please!" there, then was embarrassed about making such a dated Austin Powers reference and spilled the ink so nobody could see.

martianmister
2013-05-07, 11:46 AM
I'm assuming V had written "Yes, Please!" there, then was embarrassed about making such a dated Austin Powers reference and spilled the ink so nobody could see.

Nonsense. Vaarsuvius have no time to watch movies. S'he only watch soap operas.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 01:01 PM
I'd just like that in this thread we're speaking about sex, not about gender. Regardless of the anglosaxon world's puritan fear of that word.

Yeah, I realized I ****ed that up.

OK, I was tired when I wrote this, and rereading it I realized I screwed a few things up. The basic point I was trying to make is that elves have a chromosomal difference that reduces noticeable sex differences and may even change their sexes from a strict male-female dichotomy like in humans, so their culture does not have a concept of "gender", but still allows them to reproduce with other humanoids.

Roland Itiative
2013-05-07, 01:13 PM
What would happen if V donned the 'belt of gender changing'?
A Rift in space-time would appear. It's no coincidence that the first known Rift is in elven lands.

Also, I never got why people have this need to use weird uncommon pronouns for gender neutrality, when "they" can be used specifically for that. Sure, it creates a problem in that you need context to know if you're talking about one person or many, but "you" always had this problem, and no one ever felt the need to use weird equivalents.

And on-topic... I don't think any explanation about the elven genders in the comic can work, because the whole point is that there is no explanation. If elves were revealed to have weird genders, this would break the "magic" as much as revealing whether V is male or female.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 04:19 PM
Also, I never got why people have this need to use weird uncommon pronouns for gender neutrality, when "they" can be used specifically for that. Sure, it creates a problem in that you need context to know if you're talking about one person or many, but "you" always had this problem, and no one ever felt the need to use weird equivalents.

Because if I was saying something about V and said "they are a wizard" that is poor syntax and confusing. Saying "he is a wizard" may be wrong, but "zhe is a wizard" is correct.

Winter Light
2013-05-07, 05:43 PM
Because if I was saying something about V and said "they are a wizard" that is poor syntax and confusing. Saying "he is a wizard" may be wrong, but "zhe is a wizard" is correct.

"Zhe is" is certainly not somehow more correct than "they are."

The third-person-singular gender-neutral "they" has been in use a lot longer than "zhe", which as far as I know is a fairly recent neologism.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 06:14 PM
Newness is irrelevant to accuracy.

Kish
2013-05-07, 06:25 PM
Newness is irrelevant to accuracy.
At least as applicable to singular-they as it is to zhe, zie, e or any such pronoun.

Anteros
2013-05-07, 07:16 PM
I'm personally of the opinion that V and his mate are simply a male gay couple that adopted.

Winter Light
2013-05-07, 07:20 PM
Newness is irrelevant to accuracy.

The point remains: "zhe" is by no means more accurate than the singular they.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 08:21 PM
Ignoring that "they" is confusing and poor syntax when referring to one person, are we?

Kish
2013-05-07, 08:33 PM
...no, asserting that "they" is confusing and poor syntax* when referring to one person, are you. If "we" were ignoring it one of us wouldn't have been able to make the post you just did.

*"Confusing" you might be able to argue for being an objective measurement by some means. "Poor syntax" here is semantically equal to "just bad."

B. Dandelion
2013-05-07, 08:41 PM
People with CAIS pretty much invariably identify as women, because the same process of making their body insensitive to masculinising hormones affects their brain development. Stating that it isn't a chromosomal abnormality is misleading, because it is an intersex condition. Implying that a CAIS woman is a man is insulting, and your comment prior to that acts like they should not be seen as women.

I was trying to avoid doing exactly that (hence the exclusively female pronouns). I'm sorry if it came out in another way.

rgrekejin
2013-05-07, 09:18 PM
As such, this detail is irrelevant, and given that almost nobody on the forums is going to be a geneticist, much less a geneticist who specialises in intersex conditions, this is a fruitless conversation point that is simply going to spread misinformation about a topic which is already highly misunderstood.

Actually, I'm an honest-to-goodness, no-joke geneticist in real life. This isn't internet puffery. It's actually true. I don't specialize in intersex conditions (I specialize in inherited eye diseases), but I do have graduate-level training about them, and a year's work experience as a hospital cytogeneticist. I wrote up a lengthy reply to this thread, but then realized that the parts about chromosomal disorders are probably treading somewhere near the "no professional advice" rules for the board, so I'm not going to talk about them after all.

But I did want you to know that there's at least one geneticist here. :smallbiggrin:

B. Dandelion
2013-05-07, 09:29 PM
Any chance you still have what you wrote and could send it by PM? It sounds interesting!

I didn't think the OP's idea would really work using real life genetics as the base because it doesn't easily reduce to X=female and Y=male as implied. You could make it so that elves had XXX, XXY, XYY and YYY but that'd be something along the lines of "inspired by" biology much like Hollywood films are "inspired by" real-life events.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 10:13 PM
Yeah, like I said I realized I screwed up some crap pretty hardcore after I got some sleep and spoil-tagged pretty much the whole thing and basically said 'my point is very different concept of sex because of different chromosomal sex determination system'.

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 10:48 PM
As far as I know there aren't any actual Earth systems with more than two sexes. Though there are variations: for example systems where there is less distinction between the two, where hetero-/homozygosity is reversed (XY female, XX male), and systems with fewer than two sexes

I wouldn't talk to anyone involved in the trans* community about that.

Raineh Daze
2013-05-08, 02:52 AM
I think there are some species of lizard that basically have two female sexes and one male. I think parthenogenesis is involved.

No idea how trans stuff could lead to a belief there are more biological sexes. Do intersex conditions count as separate sexes? I can never remember. :smallconfused:

JustSomeGuy
2013-05-08, 03:24 AM
Of course elves have defined and noticeable sexes - how else would you explain the drow!

Raineh Daze
2013-05-08, 06:17 AM
Of course elves have defined and noticeable sexes - how else would you explain the drow!

Anomalies. They can't stand light and tend to worship demonic figures. Also, lots of magic and underground living.

More seriously, we've not seen drow society in this.

ti'esar
2013-05-08, 05:16 PM
Anomalies. They can't stand light and tend to worship demonic figures. Also, lots of magic and underground living.

More seriously, we've not seen drow society in this.

Some of Tarquin's comments point towards it resembling "standard" drow society, though.

Also, the only drow we've seen besides Zz'dtri was identifiably female.

Zahhak
2013-05-08, 05:30 PM
Hmmm... didn't think about the Drow at all. This may completely destroy my terribly thought out idea.

Cavenskull
2013-05-08, 06:31 PM
Hmmm... didn't think about the Drow at all. This may completely destroy my terribly thought out idea.
There's also the elf in the last panel of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

Zahhak
2013-05-08, 06:42 PM
Ear enhancement surgery?

Cavenskull
2013-05-08, 07:00 PM
Ear enhancement surgery?
Pretty unlikely, according to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

Ashtagon
2013-05-09, 02:44 AM
You can have an XY female with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, but she can't produce female gametes or go through pregnancy. It's not a chromosomal disorder either -- her chromosomes are fine, for a man. It's also possible to have an XX male, which is.

It is actually a chromosome disorder, and her genes are not "fine for a man". Nor is she a man. Female genitalia is a symptom of CAIS, but the cause is a genetic mutation that disables the body's androgen receptors (and even "normal" women have some of these).

B. Dandelion
2013-05-09, 02:49 AM
It is actually a chromosome disorder, and her genes are not "fine for a man". Nor is she a man. Female genitalia is a symptom of CAIS, but the cause is a genetic mutation that disables the body's androgen receptors (and even "normal" women have some of these).

It's not a chromosomal disorder in the sense XXY is chromosomal disorder. It is carried on the chromosome, however. "Her chromosomes are fine, for a man" is misleading in that sense and I apologize if this sends the impression that means she is a man. A CAIS female is a woman.

Should I go back and edit it? You are the second person to take me to task for it and I apologized the first time.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-09, 03:03 AM
I generally consider V to be a homosexual male. That's my 'theory' anyway.

Cavenskull
2013-05-09, 09:54 PM
It's not a chromosomal disorder in the sense XXY is chromosomal disorder. It is carried on the chromosome, however. "Her chromosomes are fine, for a man" is misleading in that sense and I apologize if this sends the impression that means she is a man. A CAIS female is a woman.

Should I go back and edit it? You are the second person to take me to task for it and I apologized the first time.
That's probably for the best. Otherwise, every time someone takes instant offense to the post and clicks "reply" before reading the rest of the thread, you'll find yourself in the same situation.

Trystane_Insane
2013-05-14, 10:43 AM
Gender-neutral pronouns are much more difficult to promote to mainstream, because pronouns are a closed-class part of speech. Similar to if you were going to invent a new preposition, "uvder", to refer to something being both over and under. (We can create new nouns and verbs easily [Googling], however.) As for "they" being "poor syntax", the fact that it is in current usage by native speakers of English and that it (usually) doesn't present any comprehension issues means that is a grammatically correct usage of the word, speaking linguistically.

As for V and his/her mate, I agree that there being a canonical explanation for it would ruin the intended effect--ambiguity for the sake of lampshading a trope within fantasy media. However, genetics does interest me (I've read many a fan theory on Spock's genetic makeup), and a fan-proposed explanation for the sex (and therefore gender) differences in elven culture are fascinating. Keep up the good work!

Zmeoaice
2013-05-14, 11:36 PM
So basically XXY is androgynous female, XYY is androgynous male, but XXX is 'feminine" female (like Lirian) and YYY is "masculine" male?

ZarDaranth
2013-05-16, 12:11 PM
I've always assumed that the branch of elven society that V is from just doesn't prescribe that much value to gender identification, and has a fairly neutral standpoint on such issues.

Heck, for all we know, that society considers baking and other food preparation as highly as a wizard, sorceror, or other powerful archetypes. So much so that Inkyrius being an apprentice baker means that V's children will live prosperously throughout their long lives if V doesn't return.


Oh, wow, did I just have a horrible idea (Hidden for the faint of heart)
2013: Elves of Baking Swimsuit Edition. Creative Frosting! Sticky buns! Look at those baguettes!

rgrekejin
2013-05-16, 12:31 PM
So basically XXY is androgynous female, XYY is androgynous male, but XXX is 'feminine" female (like Lirian) and YYY is "masculine" male?

...no. To simplify things somewhat, XXX is a basically normal female, and XYY is a basically normal male. XXY is a male with Klinefelter's syndrome, and YYY is dead, as you need at least one X chromosome to be viable.

rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-16, 02:41 PM
...no. To simplify things somewhat, XXX is a basically normal female, and XYY is a basically normal male. XXY is a male with Klinefelter's syndrome, and YYY is dead, as you need at least one X chromosome to be viable.

He meant the hypothetical elf sex-determination system.

rgrekejin
2013-05-16, 03:54 PM
He meant the hypothetical elf sex-determination system.

Oh. Well never mind then.

Temporal Echo
2013-05-23, 12:25 AM
What would happen if V donned the 'belt of gender changing'?

A funny thing about that is that in Pathfinder there is an item known as the Girdle of Opposite Gender that has an additional quirk where if the wearer rolls a natural one on their save they are given a fully androgynous appearance. I am not saying that it is likely, but it does give us another crazy possibility to add to the list.

gerryq
2013-05-25, 01:02 PM
There seems to be little evidence either way. The black dragon may be as baffled as everyone else. Dorukan's elf looks fairly feminine, but maybe s/he dresses that way to please him.

On the whole I lean towards the boring proposition that elfs look androgynous and are also smugly PC and ambiguous about the gender of individuals, probably because it annoys other races.

St Fan
2013-05-25, 06:10 PM
There seems to be little evidence either way. The black dragon may be as baffled as everyone else. Dorukan's elf looks fairly feminine, but maybe s/he dresses that way to please him.


You do realize that "Dorukan's elf" was the druidess Lirian, right?

FLHerne
2013-05-25, 06:27 PM
Oh, and in 629 (aside from a lot of 'parent'/'other parent') the dragon says 'your mate' but in 628 says 'his father'. This means that the Black Dragon that is about to kill V is either really accepting of an elven cultural concept that gender does not exist, or that the dragon knows that husband/wife doesn't really apply, because elves are not on a strict male-female dichotomy.

...or that the dragon is just as incapable of determining an elf's gender as everyone else in the comic, and so has no way of telling which of 'husband' or 'wife' would be applicable? :smallconfused:

davidbofinger
2013-05-25, 07:36 PM
I've always assumed that the branch of elven society that V is from just doesn't prescribe that much value to gender identification, and has a fairly neutral standpoint on such issues.

If that were the case we'd expect V to not give much thought to the issue. But V has quite strong feelings - deliberately blotting an answer on Roy's form, refusing to answer direct questions, keeping it secret despite long-term curiosity from colleagues, etc.. Why do all that if the answer is trivial?

I think elvish society, or at least V's branch of it, does have gender roles. V is angry about it and it might be why V left.

Kish
2013-05-25, 07:59 PM
If that were the case we'd expect V to not give much thought to the issue. But V has quite strong feelings - deliberately blotting an answer on Roy's form, refusing to answer direct questions, keeping it secret despite long-term curiosity from colleagues, etc.. Why do all that if the answer is trivial?
The question would be more valid were the three claims you made established rather than being your assumptions.

gerryq
2013-05-27, 06:33 AM
You do realize that "Dorukan's elf" was the druidess Lirian, right?

You're right, I'd forgotten. Lirian seems unambiguously female, so I guess elves are gendered too, and at least some of them are happy with it. I guess we don't know whether V. and partner are anomalous in their branch of elven society.

Reddish Mage
2013-05-30, 11:18 AM
How many possibilities are there for V's gender? Male, Female? Hermaphrodite? Intersex? Androgynous? Perhaps: Trans-man, Trans-women? Could elves be like another species with greater gender possibilities?

I'd just like to see a number on the possibilities.

Chronos
2013-05-30, 04:08 PM
Personally, my hypothesis is that Vaarsuvius' gender is 1/sqrt(2) |male> - 1/sqrt(2) |female>, and Inkyrius is 1/sqrt(2) |male> - 1/sqrt(2) |female>. Or to put it geometrically, if Elan's gender is | and Haley's gender is -, then V's is / and Inky's is \. Both of them are exactly intermediate between male and female, and still of opposite gender to each other.

Sylthia
2013-05-31, 12:13 AM
Maybe you could use Zs and Ws, instead of Xs and Ys for the elf sex chromosomes, so it isn't confused with Chromosomal disorders.

Also, you can have an XY cis-woman, if her Y chromosome is missing the particular gene that codes for maleness. It's a bit different than androgen immunity, where they have the gene, but the testosterone just doesn't have any effect.

SinsI
2013-05-31, 02:41 AM
V is a wizard that knows Polymorph, so his gender changes with his mood.

davidbofinger
2013-06-05, 04:18 AM
If that were the case we'd expect V to not give much thought to the issue. But V has quite strong feelings - deliberately blotting an answer on Roy's form, refusing to answer direct questions, keeping it secret despite long-term curiosity from colleagues, etc..

The question would be more valid were the three claims you made established rather than being your assumptions.


I'm not sure I follow. "The question would be more valid if..." What does that mean? Why is the question invalid?

Are you saying V doesn't deliberately keep V's gender secret from colleagues? I think there's plenty of evidence V must. I'm mostly thinking of the recruitment scene in On the Origin of PCs, where Roy asks V to write a gender and V declines to cooperate. But invisible urination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) is also strongly suggestive (it can't just be concern about Belkar's lust because it goes further back in time than that being an issue) and it wouldn't be hard to find other examples.

I don't see how V's gender could have remained a mystery without V deliberately keeping it so. We know people are curious, presumably some of them ask, so if V didn't mind answering it wouldn't stay a mystery for long. The natural conclusion is that V is keeping it secret for some reason that seems good to V, and my guess is that V finds it offensive that people believe it matters.

Or maybe you mean something else. Can you explain? Maybe with less brevity?

Kish
2013-06-05, 05:13 AM
Or maybe you mean something else. Can you explain? Maybe with less brevity?
All right. You are assuming, without support, that Vaarsuvius' answer on the form in OtOoPCs was deliberately blotted rather than, as Vaarsuvius said, the pen being bad.

You also stated that Vaarsuvius "refused to answer direct questions," but nowhere in the comic does anyone ask Vaarsuvius, "Are you male or female?"

Your third assumption is fundamentally the same as the first two, only without the specific example: "Keeping it secret despite long-term curiosity from colleagues."

blauregen
2013-06-05, 05:59 AM
First of all, elves don't have to have the same chromosomes as humans.

That would make for interresting interbreeding mechanics. We had at least one evil half-elf.

PlusSixPelican
2013-06-05, 06:35 AM
I've always assumed V was a woman. My reasoning is pretty simple: Rich likes to do archetypal things in new ways sometimes, and a woman making a Faustian bargain for power and power alone is something I have NOT seen in other anything; and the Fiends said she was a female, and nothing with more power/knowledge/contract with her soul on it has contradicted that.

She might have some self-image problems, hence the very loose robes. She could either be a bit overweight and trying to hide it, be underweight and trying not to make it obvious (more likely), or just hate her body in general.

I do also think Inky is a woman. While it is a lesbian relationship, they're not necessarily both lesbians. V is just as likely to be bi or pansexual as she is gay, although I would think she's asexual and either homo-or-biromantic. Inky is pretty gay, though. And probably makes bitchin' cupcakes.

I don't currently have much of an answer to the gender obfuscation. Maybe it's just a quirk, like, how some races are Always Chaotic Evil?

OotS elves are always Gender Neutral.

Chronos
2013-06-05, 08:35 AM
...and the Fiends said she was a female...
The comic's foremost expert on the topic of humanoid sexuality is Sabine. And she's referred to Vaarsuvius both as "the elf dude" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html) and as "sister" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html). If even Sabine can't figure it out, then none of us have a hope at it.

Cavenskull
2013-06-05, 09:08 AM
...and the Fiends said she was a female, and nothing with more power/knowledge/contract with her soul on it has contradicted that...
The fiends have referred to Vaarsuvius as "he", "she", and "it"--all in the same panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html). They don't appear to be any more informed on Vaarsuvius' gender/sex than any other character in the comic.