The SUE Files, Part II [Archive] - Page 3 - Giant in the Playground Forums

llehctim

2013-07-29, 10:01 PM

Either you have a bad case of Dunning-Kruger, or llehctim's gaming history is truly unenviable. Then again, I haven't actually read the log yet.

My dad's first campaign I was in was my favorite, but it was tinted in nostalgia and lasted from when i was 10 to a year or so before heading to college (7-8 years), the rest were fun to some degree or another, but never had the feel of a true epic story/tale. Some of the rest were also uneviable.

From my observation, Trekkin is I think trying to avoid being like Marty and is not assuming the players had fun (although given we have said so often mean he can if he wants).
There were some issues towards the end, and i will admit I was stressed and may have made them much worse (since if stressed I somewhat become my character to not have my problems). The main issue seemed to stem mostly on (that could not have been predicted at the time) giving Marty a character that required serious role-playing, and having to deal with a character that had real flaws that have to be dealt with, and commitment to something besides numerical and smug superiority (more on that later in the campaign journal when we get to it).

TuggyNE

2013-07-29, 10:01 PM

If anyone does publish it, then it means there is actually a devil. :smallsmile:

Or, as the case may be, an angry deity that has decided to stop being merciful to our poor souls. :smallwink:

Arkhosia

2013-07-29, 10:10 PM

My dad's first campaign I was in was my favorite, but it was tinted in nostalgia and lasted from when i was 10 to a year or so before heading to college (7-8 years), the rest were fun to some degree or another, but never had the feel of a true epic story/tale. Some of the rest were also uneviable.

From my observation, Trekkin is I think trying to avoid being like Marty and is not assuming the players had fun (although given we have said so often mean he can if he wants).
There were some issues towards the end, and i will admit I was stressed and may have made them much worse (since if stressed I somewhat become my character to not have my problems). The main issue seemed to stem mostly on (that could not have been predicted at the time) giving Marty a character that required serious role-playing, and having to deal with a character that had real flaws that have to be dealt with, and commitment to something besides numerical and smug superiority (more on that later in the campaign journal when we get to it).

Flaws: kryptonite for a awful GM

Or, as the case may be, an angry deity that decided to stop being merciful to our poor souls
No, it just means that Baator is full, and Asmodeus bought real estate in another dimension.

Sith_Happens

2013-07-29, 10:28 PM

giving Marty a character

Oh yeah, he was one of the players in this one.:smalleek:

Hm... I'm going to guess he was either Cookies or Casanova.

Arkhosia

2013-07-29, 10:33 PM

Why do I suspect that he tried the same thing on the GMs monsters as he did on his players?

llehctim

2013-07-29, 11:25 PM

Oh yeah, he was one of the players in this one.:smalleek:

Hm... I'm going to guess he was either Cookies or Casanova.

It was neither the ringmaster nor cookies, cookies didn't actually ever get around to playing till much later in the campaign (possibly as an NPC, will check my notes when i get there)

Arkhosia

2013-07-29, 11:33 PM

I have a feeling he was Smoke or malady, probably malady, because god forbid GM!!marty play a character with a minor flaw such as temper!

Trekkin

2013-07-30, 06:30 AM

Smoke was played by Rick's player, on point of fact. I'm proud of that one. Handing the pacifist mad scientist to the person usually trying to build weapons actually worked out pretty well.

I didn't make GM!Marty's character. I came up with the Relic, but that's about it; my co-GM knew Marty better than I, and I let him craft the character.

Slightly spoilery hint:
I made Cas, Mal, Smoke, Mirrors, and half of Colleen. I also named the horse Runs on Oats.

The offensive cramming of every arcane background in several books into the party was my co-GM's idea to give everyone a niche, and in retrospect that was one of the worst decisions we could have made. Colleen was one of the worst outcomes of that; we wanted a Blessed, but not a conventional one, who would probably run screaming from the party.

I suggested that instead of a conventionally religious Blessed, we build the character to believe in, but not listen to, nature spirits; in effect, a hippie Blessed. At some point "nature spirits" became "Basically the Fae" (SO not my doing) and we got Colleen, who can inexplicably see "leprechauns". The name was, well, our best guess at the consensus of six drunken carnies trying to adopt and name a nameless street urchin caught stealing their stuff.

We ought to have just not had a Blessed or a shaman in the party; the arcane backgrounds didn't fit and were weird through and through when made to fit.

Incidentally, I still can't believe how many names and portraits we ended up appropriating from Lackadaisy.

Sith_Happens

2013-07-30, 07:47 AM

...He was Buffalo, wasn't he? That's probably the worst possible fit out of the whole bunch.

llehctim

2013-07-30, 08:07 AM

...He was Buffalo, wasn't he? That's probably the worst possible fit out of the whole bunch.

Its not the fit in the party thematically, it was how he played the character that fit poorly. and my rendition of the story will probably be difficult to use for hints due to making it from my characters perspective leaving out the OOC arguments, as well as the fact that he wasn't seriously problematic until much later.

although another hint, he didn't like his character backstory so rewrote his own version to overwrite it, in my opinion it sticks out in the meet the family section.

EDIT: on an unrelated note I figured I'ld put in some basics of the deadlands system for people who don't want to look it up and have the entire system spoiled for them.

Sith_Happens

2013-07-30, 08:41 AM

Its not the fit in the party thematically, it was how he played the character that fit poorly.

That's what I meant.

Trekkin

2013-07-30, 02:26 PM

Given a few more of his posts, I think Marty will be fairly apparent; his showboating is hard to hide.

At any rate, penultimate prequel post probably (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-sue-files-dragonslayers.html)!

jindra34

2013-07-30, 02:44 PM

That ending...what? Did he really truly think that would be okay by players?

llehctim

2013-07-30, 03:09 PM

That ending...what? Did he really truly think that would be okay by players?

To be fair, I would have been happy with that as an ending, we beat the dragons of eternity with a ritual that when they are wounded enough can banish them (to another campaign) and getting home through the portal.

but as Trekkin said, there are still 1 or 2 more posts before the "ending".

Trekkin

2013-07-30, 03:21 PM

One, I think.

Two if you count this one (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-sue-files-read-this-one-dramatically.html), which isn't really a post; I can't really add to awful poetry and bizarre requirements.

Still funny, though.

jindra34

2013-07-30, 03:48 PM

To be fair, I would have been happy with that as an ending, we beat the dragons of eternity with a ritual that when they are wounded enough can banish them (to another campaign) and getting home through the portal.

but as Trekkin said, there are still 1 or 2 more posts before the "ending".

More how the post ended, the villain (because what else could this guy be) not only thanking you for doing his dirty work, but for taking your time allowing him to do other stuffs. Despite not having essentially shown up in forever.

llehctim

2013-07-30, 03:57 PM

More how the post ended, the villain (because what else could this guy be) not only thanking you for doing his dirty work, but for taking your time allowing him to do other stuffs. Despite not having essentially shown up in forever.

its a little more complicated than that and not necessarily for the better, but its not his dirty work since he made the scenario as the sue to basically waste our time or have us level up so we would be more challenging and give more XP to his clone or something, and to make a joke about the evil overlords list.

Arbane

2013-07-30, 04:09 PM

More how the post ended, the villain (because what else could this guy be) not only thanking you for doing his dirty work, but for taking your time allowing him to do other stuffs. Despite not having essentially shown up in forever.

Ah, Chief Circle. You never fail to disappoint. PCs must always be reminded that they're just the sideshow to the MOSTEST AMAZEING UBERCHARACTAR EVAR, right?

its a little more complicated than that and not necessarily for the better, but its not his dirty work since he made the scenario as the sue to basically waste our time or have us level up so we would be more challenging and give more XP to his clone or something, and to make a joke about the evil overlords list.

I'd think the happiest day of CC's life will be the day his last player quits in disgust so that he can enjoy his omnipotence in perfect solipsism, but that's not right. Do you suppose he insists upon inflicting this on others because
a: He's too obsessed with RPG rules or
b: he needs an audience?

The Fury

2013-07-30, 04:35 PM

its a little more complicated than that and not necessarily for the better, but its not his dirty work since he made the scenario as the sue to basically waste our time or have us level up so we would be more challenging and give more XP to his clone or something, and to make a joke about the evil overlords list.

OK, sure. I guess. But this seems to be Marty claiming to have outwitted the players even though they would not/could not have any idea what he's doing. Hey Chief! How about letting your players enjoy just one victory? Just a little one? No? OK then.

Ah, what am I saying? The Chief and the concept of fair play aren't on speaking terms.

Sith_Happens

2013-07-30, 06:34 PM

jindra34

2013-07-30, 06:49 PM

Seriously, this right here? This is why D&D has the Spellcraft skill, so you can roll 1d20 and handwave all the random details that no player could ever possible care about.

Well unless the DM honest to goodness intends for you to go running around acquiring the special components. And that still shouldn't be as in depth as that bull.

Trekkin

2013-07-30, 06:57 PM

Mirror's Reflections:

MOTHER OF DOSSIERS.

I assume that was your doing, Trekkin? I think you've mentioned in various threads that you like doing that. It was actually an interesting read, so there's that.

Of course, the amusing part is watching a party receive six pages of how such-and-such city is the deformed illegitimate child of Salem and Mos Eisley as imagined by George Orwell, and proceed to treat the place exactly like any other quest location.:smalltongue:

Yeah. That was mine, back before I learned how to be concise. In my defense, there was some stuff steganographically encoded in there, and it's two dossiers in one, so it was long even for my stuff.

I did give them a machine-readable, searchable version once Mirrors handed the dossier around, so at least they didn't have to read the whole thing to look stuff up -- and these days I make them much shorter. It's like a strategy guide; you just read the relevant paragraphs.

That's another reason I like sci-fi games; I can put hyperlinks and notes into my in-game documentation without breaking immersion, which cuts down on a lot of the redundancy.

But yes, I wrote a lot of the in-character documentation, which is why it's so wordy. All the playbills, letters, briefings like this one (there's a reason it's so long, but Mirrors didn't know why yet), schematics of NPC mad scientists, notes...I wrote them instead of sleeping when the nightmares got bad.

EDIT:

I just re-read it. Wow, my writing style was awful back then.

DOUBLE EDIT: New post! (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/07/well-that-escalated-quickly.html) Submission, this time.

The Fury

2013-07-31, 12:03 AM

But yes, I wrote a lot of the in-character documentation, which is why it's so wordy. All the playbills, letters, briefings like this one (there's a reason it's so long, but Mirrors didn't know why yet), schematics of NPC mad scientists, notes...I wrote them instead of sleeping when the nightmares got bad.

:smalleek: You don't still have nightmares do you? I mean if that's not out of line, it is kind of a personal question to ask.

Arbane

2013-07-31, 01:19 AM

OK, sure. I guess. But this seems to be Marty claiming to have outwitted the players even though they would not/could not have any idea what he's doing.

Oh, it's better than that - he's 'outwitting' them by 'manipulating' them into doing THE ONLY THING he would LET them do.

Truly, all the subtlety of a surgeon's scalpel... welded to a bulldozer.

Feddlefew

2013-07-31, 05:30 PM

Oh, it's better than that - he's 'outwitting' them by 'manipulating' them into doing THE ONLY THING he would LET them do.

Truly, all the subtlety of a surgeon's scalpel... welded to a bulldozer.

Even bulldozers can be cool, unpredictable and fun- I'd say this is more like a scalpel welded to a rusty, squeaky wheeled shopping cart. Hanging on it is a little cardboard and marker sign that says "BULDOOZAR".

Mr Beer

2013-07-31, 05:37 PM

Even bulldozers can be cool, unpredictable and fun- I'd say this is more like a katana welded to a rusty, squeaky wheeled shopping cart. Hanging on it is a little cardboard and marker sign that says "BULDOOZAR".

fixed that for you

Alejandro

2013-07-31, 06:33 PM

The Glyphstone

2013-07-31, 06:35 PM

Alejandro

2013-07-31, 06:36 PM

How much will you pay him for the privilege of displaying his work to other people?

You're not helping. *extreme sarcasm wink*

llehctim

2013-07-31, 09:23 PM

I'm going to Gencon in August, as I have for the past five years. Got a hotel right next to the convention center and everything. I'd be happy to show his amazing, perfect game manuscript to various publishers there, and I don't ask a dime of compensation, nor rights to anything. Think he'd take me up on it?

I would rather you not, as amusing as that might be, given it is still very much a work in progress and actually sabotaging his chances (indirectly as it would be) would make me feel rather guilty. On an unrelated note I am actually also planning on going to gencon, I went a few years back and it was fun. I beat Gygax's tower (read the GM got tired before I died, since as an evil elf wizard I was creative in my ways to stay alive mwhahaha).

SleepyShadow

2013-07-31, 10:16 PM

Love the blogs, and I hope you guys keep up the good work.

llehctim, being creative is the *only* way to survive something like that. There are a lot of old adventures that needed more player ingenuity over powerful characters (although truth be told, wizards are designed to be good at both).

That said, it took me a couple days to read through both threads and the blogs. I am impressed, to say the least.

Lastly, if you can go then I would say that going to GenCon is an excellent idea. Lots of fun to be had :smallsmile:

Arkhosia

2013-07-31, 11:07 PM

Even bulldozers can be cool, unpredictable and fun- I'd say this is more like a scalpel welded to a rusty, squeaky wheeled shopping cart. Hanging on it is a little cardboard and marker sign that says "BULDOOZAR".

That doesn't do it justice.
How about "the subtlety of a rocket launcher welded to a tank welded to a aircraft carrier welded to a enormous set of wheels that haven't been oiled in decades that sits in the middle of a busy city with an enormous flashing arrow pointing toward it."?

The Fury

2013-07-31, 11:15 PM

That doesn't do it justice.
How about "the subtlety of a rocket launcher welded to a tank welded to a aircraft carrier welded to a enormous set of wheels that haven't been oiled in decades that sits in the middle of a busy city with an enormous flashing arrow pointing toward it."?

I don't know, I sort of liked the shopping cart "BULDOOZAR." Though I was trying to make up my mind whether the katana would have been funnier than the scalpel-- either one is a mental image that is at once pathetic, absurd and slightly creepy.

Feddlefew

2013-07-31, 11:19 PM

I don't know, I sort of liked the shopping cart "BULDOOZAR." Though I was trying to make up my mind whether the katana would have been funnier than the scalpel-- either one is a mental image that is at once pathetic, absurd and slightly creepy.

Only if the katana was one of those cheep, flimsy imitation ones that sometimes frequently show up in pawn shops near colleges.

Arbane

2013-08-01, 02:08 AM

Only if the katana was one of those cheep, flimsy imitation ones that sometimes frequently show up in pawn shops near colleges.

Quite a while ago, I heard someone mention a "Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana." Yep, a katana with the face of Dale Earnhardt, famous NASCAR driver, etched into the blade.

This is self-evidently the BEST KATANA POSSIBLE. Neither CC not llectim can convince me otherwise. :smallbiggrin:

Arkhosia

2013-08-01, 02:13 AM

I don't know, I sort of liked the shopping cart "BULDOOZAR." Though I was trying to make up my mind whether the katana would have been funnier than the scalpel-- either one is a mental image that is at once pathetic, absurd and slightly creepy.

I think it should be a missile launcher instead of a katana, at least.
Seriously, who doesn't notice a very loud explosion?

TuggyNE

2013-08-01, 04:57 AM

Quite a while ago, I heard someone mention a "Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana." Yep, a katana with the face of Dale Earnhardt, famous NASCAR driver, etched into the blade.

That is horrifying and disturbing, and I'm not sure I'll be able to sleep tonight.

Mewtarthio

2013-08-01, 10:17 AM

Quite a while ago, I heard someone mention a "Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana." Yep, a katana with the face of Dale Earnhardt, famous NASCAR driver, etched into the blade.

This wouldn't be one of those evil swords that slowly corrupts you until you become the new Dale Earnhardt, would it?

I don't know, I sort of liked the shopping cart "BULDOOZAR." Though I was trying to make up my mind whether the katana would have been funnier than the scalpel-- either one is a mental image that is at once pathetic, absurd and slightly creepy.

Perhaps an extremely small katana that's used as a scalpel, since obviously katanas are better than scalpels. I call it the "skatanalpel."

VeliciaL

2013-08-01, 02:48 PM

Quite a while ago, I heard someone mention a "Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana." Yep, a katana with the face of Dale Earnhardt, famous NASCAR driver, etched into the blade.

This is self-evidently the BEST KATANA POSSIBLE. Neither CC not llectim can convince me otherwise. :smallbiggrin:

If someone finds such a thing, we need to gift it to Chief Circle stat.

The Fury

2013-08-01, 03:02 PM

If someone finds such a thing, we need to gift it to Chief Circle stat.
"The Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana flies into the hand of its true master..."

(sorry, I'm not sure of the forum etiquette here... Should I have used the purple text?)

Arkhosia

2013-08-01, 03:39 PM

"The Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana flies into the hand of its true master..."

(sorry, I'm not sure of the forum etiquette here... Should I have used the purple text?)

No. Blue on the "true master" part. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2013-08-01, 05:47 PM

We've been using purple to represent CC-speech, though, so if it was meant to be Marty or CC speaking, purple. If it was just sarcasm, blue.

TuggyNE

2013-08-01, 06:16 PM

"The Dale Earnhardt Memorial Katana flies into the hand of its true master..."

(sorry, I'm not sure of the forum etiquette here... Should I have used the purple text?)

Given the atrociously horrific nature of that quoted bit (and the definition in my sig), I'm going with yes.

Feddlefew

2013-08-01, 10:24 PM

Given the atrociously horrific nature of that quoted bit (and the definition in my sig), I'm going with yes.

I still have to grin and giggle every time I see the purple text being used outside of this thread.... :smallamused:

Arkhosia

2013-08-01, 10:37 PM

Given the atrociously horrific nature of that quoted bit (and the definition in my sig), I'm going with yes.

Oh crap! I use dark orchid to mark favorite things I post.:smallredface:

Trekkin

2013-08-01, 11:31 PM

Finally, the last new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-sue-files-prologue-is-past.html) of the prequel campaign.

Arkhosia

2013-08-01, 11:55 PM

llehctim

2013-08-02, 12:26 AM

How does Rick's player bear the stupidity?

Also, how can GM!!Marty fail at U.S. history? What's next, saying the Greeks conquered the Roman Empire and Constantine being a crazy pagan who worshipped trees?
Sorry, anyone who fails so badly at history automatically deserves a rant.

I reeeally wanted to point these out at the time, but he was deliberately using examples my character wouldn't know about, although I suppose there aren't any good examples in D&D, because people/gods getting uppity and trying <expletive deleted> like that tend to get their rears handed to them by adventurers or the bigger fish who don't want threats.

Its nice to have goals like conquer everything, I don't care about that, its the fact that he succeeds with NO EFFORT that pisses me off.

The majority of my adventuring career I would horde +1 daggers because we had to work hard for everything, which made it actually have meaning to me, and a wish was a desperate move due to the staggering rarity and MASSIVE costs (3 years of your life and XP loss) which could backfire with miswording or overstepping. So seeing someone gloat about winning with infinite free, universe bends over backwards frustrates me. And the knowledge that it is impossible to achieve any meaningful victory not spoonfed by him made me actually ignore the plot and just work on an army of disposable minions (didn't want to bring in sentient ones, since they would end up betraying me)

At least my crazy powerful NPCs had to actually earn their powers and are possible to beat (with some knowledge of their weaknesses and some planning). Hell for many powerful NPCs the method of gaining the power drives them mad.

Feddlefew

2013-08-02, 12:44 AM

I cannot properly articulate my disgust.

VeliciaL

2013-08-02, 12:50 AM

Ok, I'm going to take Marty to term on one item, and one item only (so far): "There is no internal rebellion in the Federation"

I assume Marty hasn't heard of a little organization called the Maquis (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Maquis)?

Beyond that, this is just boilerplate evil empire stuff. When people write fiction with empires patterned like this, I tend to write it off as needlessly evil. This guy makes Soviet Russia look like a paragon of freedom, for god's sake.

EDIT: I lied.

there is no conflict [in Fantasy Japan]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What, did you think they make those nifty katanas to chop up sushi?

EDIT PART 2: Finally actually finished reading. Words cannot describe my distain for this guy...

Mr Beer

2013-08-02, 01:12 AM

He's just a straight up sociopath, right?

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 01:19 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What, did [GM!!Marty] think they make those nifty katanas to chop up sushi?

No. Rice balls, remember?

Feddlefew

2013-08-02, 02:11 AM

He's just a straight up sociopath, right?

I'm beginning think he's more of a Reptilian myself. :smalleek:

Jbr208

2013-08-02, 03:21 AM

Fecar

2013-08-02, 06:27 AM

To quote Mel Brooks:

“Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.”
By that standard, the SUE Files is one of the greatest works of comedy in RPG history.

Thanks to Trekkin, llehctim and EH02 for their posts and sharing this nightmare. I have enjoyed, while feeling bad for the valiant trio, every word of it. Its a guilty pleasure.

Trekkin

2013-08-02, 07:25 AM

Don't thank us yet! At least, not in a way that implies we're done.

We have an entirely separate campaign to run through, you know.

And thanks, VeliciaL, for mentioning the Maquis. I knew there had to be one; I'm just not familiar with Star Trek.

This next one is going to be fun. I'm probably going to sound like a horrible slayer of catgirls for half of the things we did, but what the hey.

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 07:41 AM

CC is slowly destroying two of my vital organs: my brain and my liver. On the plus side, as I keep drinking I care less about how completely offensive his precious story is to any sensible and/or modestly educated person.

Also, his offensitivity is so strong it's poisonous. Your liver was working overtime to start with.

jindra34

2013-08-02, 07:45 AM

I cannot properly articulate my disgust.

That about sums it up. Cognitive dissonance on everything he says.

llehctim

2013-08-02, 08:31 AM

I want to give the benefit of the doubt and think that he doesn't believe that is possible in real life and Sue has just gone mad with power and isn't thinking about the consequences, but its hard to tell since Marty seems to be able to lose an argument*. At times I act as the "devil's avocado" (I don't want to actually advocate the devil) in arguments to defend someone/something that is not available to defend itself since it helps expand my perspectives, but eventually I will end an argument.

*He likes to drag arguments on with nitpicking and tangents (something I do as well if I think both parties are amused by it), however he sees every argument as a "debate". I have had some good debates with him, but the issue is when the other person isn't debating he doesn't notice that it is an actual argument since every problem can be solved with rational debate.

-Sidenote: I don't think he is a sociopath, I suspect this odd habit may have come from positive reinforcing of just arguing till the other people don't care anymore and let you win.

Asmayus

2013-08-02, 08:33 AM

I am so glad I've never met this guy (touch wood)

CoffeeIncluded

2013-08-02, 08:46 AM

...I'm sorry, I need to drop something.

Eldan

2013-08-02, 10:01 AM

What, did you think they make those nifty katanas to chop up sushi?

EDIT PART 2: Finally actually finished reading. Words cannot describe my distain for this guy...

Psh. The Katanas are for Mutually Assured Destruction, of course.

The Fury

2013-08-02, 11:50 AM

Ok, I'm going to take Marty to term on one item, and one item only (so far): "There is no internal rebellion in the Federation"

I assume Marty hasn't heard of a little organization called the Maquis (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Maquis)?

Maybe the fact that the Maquis was introduced in DS9, (I guess a lot of fans had problems with that show,) and Voyager did nothing with it is why it "doesn't count?"

Oh, minor nitpick with regards to history: Some colonies that rebelled were directly inspired by the U.S. revolution. Particularly in Latin America. According to Juan Gonzales, Simon Bolivar was not only inspired by the U.S. revolution but was convinced that the U.S. would help him overthrow the Spanish rule. He was wrong of course.

Finally... Lily is from a setting that presumably resembles medieval Europe, yes? Now I'm a bit rusty on history but I'm pretty sure that they had books in medieval Europe. Lily has probably seen books, possibly read some, if she hasn't she almost certainly knows what books are-- Why then does Marty feel the need to explain what a book is? DANG that bit was infuriating!

georgie_leech

2013-08-02, 12:05 PM

He had a captive audience of the most incompetent engineers ever, remember? They'd moved far beyond such outdated technology as "books," so he was explaining for the benefit of his NPC's.

The Fury

2013-08-02, 12:19 PM

Oh hey, yeah! I forgot about those stupid advanced engineers. They wouldn't know what a book is would they?

llehctim

2013-08-02, 12:29 PM

Maybe the fact that the Maquis was introduced in DS9, (I guess a lot of fans had problems with that show,) and Voyager did nothing with it is why it "doesn't count?"

Oh, minor nitpick with regards to history: Some colonies that rebelled were directly inspired by the U.S. revolution. Particularly in Latin America. According to Juan Gonzales, Simon Bolivar was not only inspired by the U.S. revolution but was convinced that the U.S. would help him overthrow the Spanish rule. He was wrong of course.

Finally... Lily is from a setting that presumably resembles medieval Europe, yes? Now I'm a bit rusty on history but I'm pretty sure that they had books in medieval Europe. Lily has probably seen books, possibly read some, if she hasn't she almost certainly knows what books are-- Why then does Marty feel the need to explain what a book is? DANG that bit was infuriating!

We had lots of books, and spent time researching them/ copying them. I had a book of literally infinite pages that had an enchantment that let me search through it. I was trying to compile as much magical knowledge as I could, as I do with most wizards I play.
I think it was less trying to define what books are, but more of a making it sound cooler than "yeah we are in a reality loosely based on this book in my reality". To be fair this can work occasionally he just made it sound like he was defining a book.

Ex: (a father/mother talking to a son/daughter or something): These pieces of paper, with what seem like meaningless words now, when read, can be like a portal to other worlds, allowing your imagination to run free and taking you on epic journeys with heroes, mages, dragons, princesses and Gods or perhaps spaceships, aliens, exploration and new amazing discoveries or perhaps a horror story to test your courage and spook your friends. The possibilities are limitless and one day you will have your own tale to tell.

Arbane

2013-08-02, 12:49 PM

Wow.

I'm confused now. Does Chief Circle want the PCs to think Marty's the villain, or not?

Oh, wait, I think I sort-of understand his 'plan' - he's trying to validate Marty's pointless 'achievements' by having the PCs oppose him and fail. (The fact that he's completely rigged the game in his favor is irrelevant, see below. :smallyuk:)

Its nice to have goals like conquer everything, I don't care about that, its the fact that he succeeds with NO EFFORT that pisses me off.

So seeing someone gloat about winning with infinite free, universe bends over backwards frustrates me.

Same here. Seeing CC pat himself on the back for winning by Writer's Fiat is an aneurism-inducing level of idiotic smugness.

What makes it hilarious is that apparently, he can't win WITHOUT getting to write the rules, at least if what Trekkin said about him getting stomped at strategy games is true.

He's just a straight up sociopath, right?

Narcissistic personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder):

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. This condition affects one percent of the population. First formulated in 1968, it was historically called megalomania, and is severe egocentrism.

Sound like anyone we know?

Eldan

2013-08-02, 12:58 PM

Silverbit

2013-08-02, 01:37 PM

What.

Were it in any other context, I would take his pathetic excuse of an empire as something designed from the ground up to evoke feelings of disgust. I know he hasn't read 1984, but he has written it. From Big Brother's point of view. I'm not even going to comment on his historical knowledge, or lack thereof.
I would write more, but it would all be swearing interspersed with sobs.

VeliciaL

2013-08-02, 02:06 PM

Yeah, the Maqui came into play in Deep Space 9 (which it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Chief Circle doesn't like, because it's a rather darker view of the Trekverse). Or maybe he wouldn't like it because he'd identify with the Dominion rather than the Federation...

In any case, I don't despise the guy because of his laughably naive view of history, politics, and the like. Nor do I despise the guy because of his terrible DMing style.

No, what really gets my ire is how he feels the need to denigrate his players to build his own DMPC (and by extension, himself) up.

He's not just a terrible DM, he's a terrible friend as well.

The Fury

2013-08-02, 02:07 PM

Something just occurred to me, has Chief Circle seen Evangelion? That might actually explain a lot.

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 02:31 PM

You know, half my history knowledge is from Cracked Articles and the other half from Total War games, and I'd still have problems stopping myself from just laughing out loud if he told me something like that.

Same here, except it's podcasts instead of total war.

Personally, when I first read the early parts I thought "this guy shouldn't DM: he wants to be a PC!"
Apparently I was wrong.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-08-02, 03:11 PM

He read 1984, thought, "man, this guy sure has some good ideas!" And now wants to do a one-man reenactment of it.

Alejandro

2013-08-02, 04:26 PM

I would rather you not, as amusing as that might be, given it is still very much a work in progress and actually sabotaging his chances (indirectly as it would be) would make me feel rather guilty. On an unrelated note I am actually also planning on going to gencon, I went a few years back and it was fun. I beat Gygax's tower (read the GM got tired before I died, since as an evil elf wizard I was creative in my ways to stay alive mwhahaha).

Yes, Gencon is great fun.

And I wouldn't do the sabotaging, I'd be happy to simply be a messenger. His crap can self sabotage.

Friv

2013-08-02, 04:54 PM

I would rather you not, as amusing as that might be, given it is still very much a work in progress and actually sabotaging his chances (indirectly as it would be) would make me feel rather guilty. On an unrelated note I am actually also planning on going to gencon, I went a few years back and it was fun. I beat Gygax's tower (read the GM got tired before I died, since as an evil elf wizard I was creative in my ways to stay alive mwhahaha).

As politely as possible...

There is nothing to sabotage, because there are no chances. At worst, you would be saving him years of pointless revision.

jindra34

2013-08-02, 05:00 PM

At worst, you would be saving him years of pointless revision.

Um... no, overall thats the BEST outcome for everyone. The worst outcome being some idiot actually decides its worth investing in.

Trekkin

2013-08-02, 09:48 PM

And so it begins, with a new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-it-begins.html).

Cthulhutech, everybody.

jindra34

2013-08-02, 09:58 PM

Well that was comedic. And sad that he actually thought it would go over well in the long run, but comedic.

Also one thing on Mech's: If your using a Neural Interface, it can be a hell of a lot simpler (at least in theory) to use human-form vehicles. Primarily because you won't need a translation interface.

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 10:07 PM

Oh...oh no oh no oh no oh no!
He's using drow as a race! :smalleek:

I kind get where he's going with the Whites though: he reskinned drow and is trying to reskin elves as well.

Trekkin

2013-08-02, 10:22 PM

Also one thing on Mech's: If your using a Neural Interface, it can be a hell of a lot simpler (at least in theory) to use human-form vehicles. Primarily because you won't need a translation interface.

He is not, though. Levers and buttons and foot pedals, oh my.

The Operator thing is more of a flatly magical affinity field than anything else; we'll see more of it later. It just makes the buttons and levers work "better".

Honestly, it's a transparent justification for mecha, and one of the many problems I have with Ctech. I believe Marty intends to list it as an inspiration if he ever finishes his system, if that helps.

EDIT: Quite so, Arkhosia, although I forget which of the Ctech writers was behind the "space drow" thing. Marty didn't do this; this post is mostly on how he interprets Ctech, not what he adds.

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 10:34 PM

He is not, though. Levers and buttons and foot pedals, oh my.

The Operator thing is more of a flatly magical affinity field than anything else; we'll see more of it later. It just makes the buttons and levers work "better".

Honestly, it's a transparent justification for mecha, and one of the many problems I have with Ctech. I believe Marty intends to list it as an inspiration if he ever finishes his system, if that helps.

EDIT: Quite so, Arkhosia, although I forget which of the Ctech writers was behind the "space drow" thing. Marty didn't do this one.

Oh.
Then I so far have nothing to be mad at him with: drow in space? No... Just No.

Trekkin

2013-08-02, 10:41 PM

Oh.
Then I so far have nothing to be mad at him with: drow in space? No... Just No.

But...but Spelljammer. :smallsmile:

And just wait. What he does with them is not good.

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 10:44 PM

Honestly I have no idea what spelljammer is. (I play 4e, maybe that's why?)

PairO'Dice Lost

2013-08-02, 10:55 PM

Honestly I have no idea what spelljammer is. (I play 4e, maybe that's why?)

It's a 2e setting, basically D&D! In! Space! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer). "Windjammer" is a term for a type of large sailing ship, so by analogy a "Spelljammer" is a ship that is propelled by magic, hence the name.

Alabenson

2013-08-02, 11:19 PM

To be fair to Marty (I can't believe I actually just said that), from what I understand of the system a great deal of at least the first half of that post, such as the space-drow Nazzadi, actually came from the Cthullutech books and not his diseased imagination.

Edit:
Ah, swordsage'd, and by the OP no less.

In any event, I will say one 'positive' thing about CC; he has managed to create a game so horrible that every other DM can now hold their heads up high knowing that, no matter how much of a DMPC infested railroad their campaign was, at least they didn't create the Martyverse.

Arkhosia

2013-08-02, 11:36 PM

I think that this campaign world could of had massive potential. Change the mohi, remove the government's passive aggressive authoritarian stuff, and most of the culture stuff, and it would be great.

The Fury

2013-08-03, 01:41 AM

Hang on, "the land of Cuba/Haiti?" Does Chief think that those are the same land mass? I mean, they are sort of close. Haiti is on the same land mass as the Dominican Republic though, maybe he meant that.

VeliciaL

2013-08-03, 02:09 AM

I like how he thinks that 9-foot tall mechanized power armor is "small" and at all useful for urban warfare. :smallconfused: If it can't fit through a door, it's not useful, Marty.

EDIT: You're right. Eclipse Phase does everything this setting does, and does it a thousand times better.

Arkhosia

2013-08-03, 02:46 AM

Marty, this is the only setting where power armor is acceptable:
(Screen stretcher)http://martianchronicles.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/fallout-3-ss-26.jpg

And you're not ever allowed to use it!

comicshorse

2013-08-03, 06:13 AM

The NEG tried very hard to integrate the Nazzadi into the cities and the NEG, and even gave them the land of Cuba/Haiti as their own state of Nazza-Duhni inside the NEG

So what happened to the people actually living in Cuba/Haiti ?

LordChaos13

2013-08-03, 07:14 AM

So what happened to the people actually living in Cuba/Haiti ?

They got booted out.
That is the canon answer by the actual makers of CTech (which is horrid, horrid game. Though marty did make it worse)

comicshorse

2013-08-03, 08:19 AM

They got booted out.
That is the canon answer by the actual makers of CTech (which is horrid, horrid game. Though marty did make it worse)

'Cause obviously evicting the population of two countries from there homes so their country can be given to the aliens who were trying to exterminate them just a few months ago is bound to go without a hitch.
I honestly can't think of a solution more likely to cause bloodshed, political unrest and long term divisions

LordChaos13

2013-08-03, 08:38 AM

'Cause obviously evicting the population of two countries from there homes so their country can be given to the aliens who were trying to exterminate them just a few months ago is bound to go without a hitch.
I honestly can't think of a solution more likely to cause bloodshed, political unrest and long term divisions

Why not give them one of the many, many areas destroyed by the War?
Or the Outback in Australia that'll work too.

Sure there aint no infrastructure but there aren't any locals needing ejection either.
There needs to be reclamation projects too, many of the warzones are just ruins not ruined for all time. Plant some new crops, build new building in Nazadi design and bam. All fixed.
Now rinse and repeat 10,000 times to NOT have a stupidly high person/mile average (I think it ended up on par with China's worst parts, but Im not sure. And thats WITH 40% leaving to join actual Human nations not forming their own)

jindra34

2013-08-03, 09:00 AM

Why not give them one of the many, many areas destroyed by the War?
Or the Outback in Australia that'll work too.

Sure there aint no infrastructure but there aren't any locals needing ejection either.
There needs to be reclamation projects too, many of the warzones are just ruins not ruined for all time. Plant some new crops, build new building in Nazadi design and bam. All fixed.
Now rinse and repeat 10,000 times to NOT have a stupidly high person/mile average (I think it ended up on par with China's worst parts, but Im not sure. And thats WITH 40% leaving to join actual Human nations not forming their own)

Well the stupidly high People per Square Mile is a common result of building Acrologies in theory. Primarily because Arcologies being huge 3d buildings can fit more floor space per square mile (by a silly huge factor) and therefore more people. So yeah while Pop density may be up there living quality doesn't need to go down. In fact a planned (but unfeasible) psuedo-Arcology for Tokyo was about 25 sq miles. For all of Tokyo. Without dropping the space (in cubic units) per person.

georgie_leech

2013-08-03, 09:35 AM

Okay, CC picked a stinker of a setting base; I can chalk that up to an honest mistake. Just... The campaign introduction is not the place to sound folksy. It's where you're supposed to sound grand and sweeping, or sinister, or otherwise ham it up to get your players in the right frame of mind. Given his love of grand standing, how could he not take advantage of the place where he's allowed to act like his NPC's?

Eldan

2013-08-03, 10:57 AM

You know, I'm tempted to take this setting and look what hte playground homebrew section could make of it.

Now, no mistake, we'd start by kicking out 90%, summing hte rest up as a three sentence premise and then restarting, but it could work.

"In 20XX, humanity discovered [Lovecraftian Magic energy Source]. Now we have science fiction weapons, but the Mi-Go don't like it and tsart a war, and primordial giant monsters are waking up in the oceans. "

Turn back to the start of the war. Make it not about fighting avatars of the old ones and giant well-organized cults organized by Nyarlathotep. Make it something a bit like X-COM. The threat is just manifesting. We are sending in teams in power armour and energy weapons and they barely make it out alive.

For bonus points, give hte Mi-Go a motivation. They think we're close to waking up the old ones and htey want to stop us before we do.

The Fury

2013-08-03, 11:59 AM

They got booted out.
That is the canon answer by the actual makers of CTech (which is horrid, horrid game. Though marty did make it worse)

Yeah. That makes sense. Because who ever heard of people getting upset about being forced to leave their country? Obviously the Haitians and the Cubans were cool about this. The Dominicans too, even though no one asked them.

EDIT: Whoops. Ninja'd.

Leliel

2013-08-03, 12:05 PM

Oh, CTech. You had so much potential, and you squandered just about all of it.

I mean, seriously, the Creep Factor can make a game better by showing how human depravity interacts with the supernatural (see the GUMSHOE system, which has, among other things, the Book of Unremitting Horror (http://ageofravens.blogspot.com/2011/10/rpgs-that-scare-book-of-unremitting.html) (warning-site is tame, but some of the things he links to are, by his own admission, NSFW) for all your splatterpunk needs), but CTech doesn't seem to understand how the Creep Factor works-gore good, anything truly skeevy bad. Reading the BoUE, I recognize how much of a hypocrite I am on this fact, but then again you're supposed to be homicide detectives and private investigators after the worst parts of the criminal underworld with supernatural backing, and the writers had limits. I'm not going to talk about it for reasons of politeness, but you know that thing Ettin that caused Ettin to use the staredog emoticon in place of a title for his review of one of the adventures in the corebook, part 23 to be exact? The writers never touch that with a ten-foot pole, and these are the people who are proud that their RPGnet reviewer marked them down a point because he was that creeped out.

Basically, what I'm saying is that if you're involving the Creep Factor, you (A) need to understand you're push boundaries and (B) approach the subject with some maturity.

CTech's writers do neither. Well, maybe the first, but they don't seem to understand that when you push boundaries, most people don't appreciate it or find it titillating. They're just...out of...touch.

The railroading and confused mangling of Lovecraft just makes the whole thing worse. You want mecha in your Lovecraft game, you need to jettison at least a bit of Lovecraft. Make the transhuman themes central-it's the end of humanity, but not necessarily by destruction: it's just that, in order to win, we need to become something...else.

Eldrtich Skies does this very well.

Eldan

2013-08-03, 12:09 PM

It can work. Children of an Elder God was an explicit Evangelion/Lovecraft crossover with Biyakees and Hastur and it worked really well.

comicshorse

2013-08-03, 03:36 PM

Leaving aside the hideous problems caused by emptying two countries ( not to mention the hideous problems of moving TWO ENTIRE POPULATIONS) doesn't end the problems with this world.
How does the Order of Dagon hold territory against disciplined and experienced military forces ? How do they maintain themselves in horrible tactical position of being spread out in a long line along the coast ? Also why the hell should Deep Ones want the Mi Go to win, the forces of the Mythos are not renowned for their desire to co-operate.
Also hordes rampaging across nations worked fine for the Mongols but any horde doing that nowadays is going to get bombed out of existence pretty damn fast

Trekkin

2013-08-03, 03:57 PM

Clearly, the EOD are holding the line because the good guys keep using mecha instead of sensible weapons and getting into giant robot slap-fights.

Also, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-very-strange-aeon.html). I couldn't properly represent what had happened before I joined without making it sound surreal, so here we are.

jindra34

2013-08-03, 04:32 PM

Given the context of the previous campaign, I guess that is an improvement. Still not much of one, given the obvious 'YOU MUST FAIL'ness (seriously identify an invisible box by sight?), but an improvement.

Feddlefew

2013-08-03, 06:04 PM

I'd heard Cthulhutech was a thematic mess before, but dear Carcosa that review.... :smalleek:

Although I'm not surprised Chief Circle made it worse.

Leliel

2013-08-03, 06:19 PM

I'd heard Cthulhutech was a thematic mess before, but dear Carcosa that review.... :smalleek:

Although I'm not surprised Chief Circle made it worse.

And I was actually exited for it when it was still going to come out! I even bought the corebook and Vade Mecum!

I seriously felt a little betrayed by the game when I realized how creepy it was.

Sir_Mopalot

2013-08-03, 07:18 PM

I love the basic idea of CTech. Fighting lovecraft monsters with mecha, awesome. And the Mythos stuff not written by Lovecraft tends to be far more survivable and pulpy, so mecha action can fit without too much trouble. The problem is that the writers tried to cram too many games in, with a terribad dice mechanic. Oh, and to top it all off, the element of Lovecraft's work that survived most wholly? How icky inter-racial relationships are. I'd love to play a mecha vs cthulhu game or setting, but I'd build it from the ground up rather than give CTech my time or money.

Mando Knight

2013-08-04, 12:53 PM

And so it begins, with a new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-it-begins.html).

Cthulhutech, everybody.

I have a few problems with your problems.

No, you can't innately trust the intelligence community. However, when you're fighting something that you're not meant to know, having some guys who know how to find out those things anyway is your best bet. You might not agree with their methods, but it's not strictly a Maxim #29 (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2004-12-31) situation. The real issue is that somehow all these intelligence communities are playing nice with each other now. They never come in as "one big happy family."
Power Armor's advantage isn't that you suddenly outnumber the other guy, it's that their numbers don't count as much as yours do. The idea is that when you can shrug off small-arms fire and carry infantry support weapons like they were standard rifles, you are the squad... or at the very least, a fire team.
Ground-effect lift is relatively small and turbulent, and a forward thruster won't care if there's air or dirt twenty feet down, since those aren't involved in the reaction at all. Also, I'd like to see anyone run their car for 48 hours without refueling.

Friv

2013-08-04, 01:13 PM

Um... no, overall thats the BEST outcome for everyone. The worst outcome being some idiot actually decides its worth investing in.

I was only including possible outcomes.

On-topic.

This is certainly a... setting... that exists... it somehow fails to surprise me that it's one that Marty loves.

I almost picked up Cthulutech once, but I grabbed something else instead. Now, I am very, very glad.

Trekkin

2013-08-04, 04:04 PM

I have a few problems with your problems.

[problems]

You're right on part one, and I admit to some personal bias there. You're also totally right that the idea of all of them cooperating is far harder to accept, although I'm willing to read that as an overly simplistic retrospective on fifty years of operating under the same umbrella organization rather than an immediate effect of the first War.

The power armor thing (2) is more of a quibble with his wording. As a match in the "who would win a fight between" sense (pardon my incomplete vocabulary), you're probably right for most reasonable assumptions of the capabilities of the armor.

Somehow I was reading into the word "match" an evaluation of their utility as a force multiplier. Taken that way, it didn't seem right to set it that high; I kept seeing problems with having that few people out there, at least from a sensory perspective. It reminded me of the idea of the overworked piece in chess, at least superficially -- they'd just have too much area to cover for power armor alone to effectively replace that many eyes. Then again, I was assuming they'd be in an arcology or observationally tricky environment.

That said, I'm in no way a tactician, as is probably readily apparent.

The last one (3) is actually me being unclear, but in that respect Marty was too. You're right that two days is a lot to expect out of a gasoline-powered car, but these wonder battery D-cells have energy densities orders of magnitude higher. It just seems weird to have all that energy handy and only get such a relatively low increase in runtime out of it.

Then again, time is a bad way to measure this...but he never gave us range.

By "pushing against the ground rather than the air", I meant that, as I understand it, it's generally more efficient to push against a solid rather than move a fluid. Aside from being an oversimplification, it turns out I was on the wrong track entirely. A-pods "just produce force" without anything else moving. They're reactionless drives. I weep for the conservation of momentum.

llehctim

2013-08-04, 04:39 PM

I have an issue with the unified super CIA, because as it was described to me there was no checks and balances, they had a blank check to do whatever they saw fit to achieve their goals. (Not that we had any of this freedom, and PC/NPC double standards annoy me when not explained).We had to go through crap-loads of bureaucracy and there was heavy indication the govn't was spying on us, which annoys me, the NPCs could do whatever they wanted.

I figured the power armor shape basically amplified what the person was able to do on a larger scale with mechanics that heavily involved magic. The big robots/power suits were primarily for fighting big monsters/monster-people. Giant magic mecha's that basically copy and amplify a psudomagic pilots actions are great, mecha's that require someone to pull levers and buttons is ... not as great.
- not that I wasn't planning on making a magic steam powered one that was heavily enchanted and involved making several magic items with a system for making them noone else in the setting had (I will admit I like to feel unique and special in games), granted not having the basic tools for said enchantment made it a massive time sink that rarely succeeded.

A primary issue was a massive lack of communication. We basically had no idea how anything worked and every guess we tried to make turned out to be wrong, often in contradictory ways. When asked how things worked we were told our players didn't know (similar to the 'advanced' scientists) or that it worked in ways that almost actively worked against us.

Such as: a plan involving trees, no trees in the archeology (despite having it stated that there was a tree earlier and the logic behind having oxygen production). And more that I can't remember since I had learned to focus on my character alone and only pay attention to other events if it was critical to immediate survival. My character was starting to seriously believe nothing in the setting was real as it would shift to be something else with seemingly no cause so often, and I have had dreams where I felt phantom pains of sorts so it could be a dream.

Arbane

2013-08-04, 07:26 PM

A primary issue was a massive lack of communication. We basically had no idea how anything worked and every guess we tried to make turned out to be wrong, often in contradictory ways. When asked how things worked we were told our players didn't know (similar to the 'advanced' scientists) or that it worked in ways that almost actively worked against us.

Such as: a plan involving trees, no trees in the archeology (despite having it stated that there was a tree earlier and the logic behind having oxygen production). And more that I can't remember since I had learned to focus on my character alone and only pay attention to other events if it was critical to immediate survival. My character was starting to seriously believe nothing in the setting was real as it would shift to be something else with seemingly no cause so often, and I have had dreams where I felt phantom pains of sorts so it could be a dream.

And thus, we come full circle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275152).

jindra34

2013-08-04, 07:46 PM

Ah yes the quantum foliage that is only there some of the time. But now is nessecary to be there always do to another things... LOGIC, CONSISTENCY, and GOOD DMING at its finest.

llehctim

2013-08-04, 08:22 PM

And thus, we come full circle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275152).

I feel rather silly now that you mention that, since I could have gotten more examples from there. Ah well.

VeliciaL

2013-08-04, 08:23 PM

I keep wanting to call this Schrodinger's plot hook, but I'm not sure that's quite right for a plot hook that exists until it is useful to the player...

georgie_leech

2013-08-04, 08:34 PM

I keep wanting to call this Schrodinger's plot hook, but I'm not sure that's quite right for a plot hook that exists until it is useful to the player...

A plot hook that may or may not exist until a Player needs it, at which point it's definitely not available? Seems appropriate.

Eldan

2013-08-04, 08:37 PM

It's not really a plot hook. A plot hook would be something that, well, hooks the player, then draws him in, into the story.

This is more, I don't know. A plot net? It entangles the player and makes it impossible to move.

Mando Knight

2013-08-04, 08:42 PM

By "pushing against the ground rather than the air", I meant that, as I understand it, it's generally more efficient to push against a solid rather than move a fluid.

It is. That's why it's a good thing that most thruster nozzles are solid. :smalltongue:

Seriously, a thruster nominally doesn't care what's past the nozzle, so long as it doesn't obstruct the exhaust. All the thrust comes from the engine throwing mass out of the back at a very high speed (Action: engine spits fiery gasses out the back at very high speeds. Reaction: said fiery gasses push back on the engine). Any extra work done in the desired direction by flow interactions between the outside and the exhaust is nice, but usually they're actually counterproductive.

Reactionless drives really don't care what the rest of the environment looks like.

jindra34

2013-08-04, 08:55 PM

Mando Knight

2013-08-04, 09:10 PM

Mando Knight I think the big thing thrusters care about on whats behind them is not some much the absence of stuff, but the presence of stuff that would disrupt their pushing gas/liquid out the back smoothly. Because then the whole system might break down and your thruster becomes a pressure chamber.

That's why I said nominally. Presumably, soon after you push off, the risk of being a pressure chamber is nullified, but other aerodynamic effects are still present. At any rate, it still flips around the presumed improved efficiency by flying near the ground. (For more basic info on the tricky aerodynamics here, see Ground Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_%28aircraft%29) and Vortex Ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring)... basic because the flow is almost by definition unsteady and unsuitable for any kind of flow calculations that have one or two simple governing equations)

Arbane

2013-08-04, 09:46 PM

Feddlefew

2013-08-04, 10:02 PM

Schroedinger's Stonewall?

No, to stonewall someone is to blatantly refuse to give them your stance on something in the hope that they'll go away.

Or maybe that is what we want?

Arbane

2013-08-04, 10:37 PM

No, to stonewall someone is to blatantly refuse to give them your stance on something in the hope that they'll go away.

I thought that's what CC was doing. Only it wasn't 'go away' so much as 'instill the proper sense of learned helplessness." :smallannoyed:

Schroedinger's Labyrinth, maybe? It's only got one route through, but the players don't know it, and the walls keep shifting.

Trekkin

2013-08-04, 10:39 PM

It is. That's why it's a good thing that most thruster nozzles are solid. :smalltongue:

...good point. I'd never actually thought about it before.

Yay! Learning!

Also, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-specialist-snowflake.html).

Wherein I reveal just how much of this was probably my fault. Seriously, though, I don't make characters like that in normal campaigns.

LordChaos13

2013-08-04, 10:49 PM

That character is awesome.
Just saiyan, I would love to DM a campaign with Cael

VeliciaL

2013-08-04, 11:37 PM

"Morass" might be a good term for it too.

EDIT: Marty's Morass!

EDIT THE SECOND:

because your character wouldn’t be this maladjusted if he were rich.

Right, because rich people are all perfectly well adjusted individuals. Nice classism there, pal...

I don't know why this surprises me any more...

Feddlefew

2013-08-05, 02:09 AM

I thought that's what CC was doing. Only it wasn't 'go away' so much as 'instill the proper sense of learned helplessness." :smallannoyed:

Schroedinger's Labyrinth, maybe? It's only got one route through, but the players don't know it, and the walls keep shifting.

How about Shroedinger's Mother-May-I? The game where getting permission to advance is like finding the exact location of subatomic particles!

Arbane

2013-08-05, 02:22 AM

Right, because rich people are all perfectly well adjusted individuals. Nice classism there, pal...

Ixnay on the eal-ray orld-way talk - the mods apparently frown on it.
But, yeah. (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/07/money-science-musing-bit-of-sue.html)

How about Shroedinger's Mother-May-I? The game where getting permission to advance is like finding the exact location of subatomic particles!

Works for me.... But how about "Marty's Mother-May-I Morass"?
(Sounds like a D&D spell name....)

Edit to add: I was just reading back through the first thread, and was thinking "stuff like this is why most GMs hate having science or engineering majors in sci-fi games". Not that that justifies Chief Circle's Pudgy Hand Of Ghod style of GMing at all.

Eldan

2013-08-05, 05:11 AM

Marty's Mother-May-I Morass
Transformation
Wizard/Sorcerer 4
1 round/level

This spell turns a thirty foot radius of area into sticky, glue-like mud that grabs at anything entering the area. Creatures in the area of the spell are entangled. Unlike other entanglement effects, they can not free themselves with strength or escape artist checks, but only with nicely asking the mud to let them go, a DC20 Diplomacy check.

jindra34

2013-08-05, 07:51 AM

georgie_leech

2013-08-05, 11:40 AM

Eldan

2013-08-05, 12:19 PM

I didn't want to make the spell too horrible, with a DC 20, most people at least have a chance of hitting the DC even if they have no ranks :smalltongue:

If I wanted to accurately represent the game, I'd throw the text into google translate a few times, write it backwards and include a massive confusion and rage effect.

VeliciaL

2013-08-05, 03:41 PM

If we wanted to make it game faithful, make it only useable by the DM, specifically on players that try to do anything not approved by the plot.

ReaderAt2046

2013-08-06, 04:36 PM

Maybe the fact that the Maquis was introduced in DS9, (I guess a lot of fans had problems with that show,) and Voyager did nothing with it is why it "doesn't count?"

Actually, the Maquis show up in at least one TNG episode (I know because I've seen it), though Marty is of course capable of retconning that away, in his own mind at least.

Arbane

2013-08-07, 07:34 PM

Wow... seeing the LOGIC of how these powers get divided up, that gets messy. And really you have to be a HIGH level 'parapsychic' to do that? Seems like in addition to everything else Marty got the ordering wrong.

No, you're just missing the point. In a 'normal' game, the point of powers is to let the PCs do interesting and useful things. In S.U.E., the point is to ensure PC incompetence so that NPCs can show up and impress the players with their Kewlness. So from his point of view, Chief Circle got the ordering right.

Trekkin, has CC ever seen/commented on Mutants and Masterminds?

Trekkin

2013-08-08, 12:58 AM

No, you're just missing the point. In a 'normal' game, the point of powers is to let the PCs do interesting and useful things. In S.U.E., the point is to ensure PC incompetence so that NPCs can show up and impress the players with their Kewlness. So from his point of view, Chief Circle got the ordering right.

Trekkin, has CC ever seen/commented on Mutants and Masterminds?

He claims to love the system, but he's never liked any character built with it.

Incidentally, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-drivers-ed.html).

One Step Two

2013-08-08, 01:49 AM

He claims to love the system, but he's never liked any character built with it.

Incidentally, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-drivers-ed.html).

Watching you describe in-game action where you were present really just drives home the fact that he hates the idea you guys can be effective at all. I mean, I could appreciate how perverse his understanding of player agency is, but even in the middle of frakking combat of all things.

Arbane

2013-08-08, 01:54 AM

He claims to love the system, but he's never liked any character built with it.

PL 20 just isn't ENOUGH to properly model Marty!

Incidentally, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-drivers-ed.html).

Oh, goodie! Storytime!

(reads)

Wow, CC just loves piling up the penalties, doesn't he.

VeliciaL

2013-08-08, 01:54 AM

Oh noes! The PCs took out more enemies than the NPCs!

In any other game, that would be a good thing...

I'm really impressed by the level of improvisation you guys displayed.

Trekkin

2013-08-08, 02:37 AM

PL 20 just isn't ENOUGH to properly model Marty!

Oh, goodie! Storytime!

(reads)

Wow, CC just loves piling up the penalties, doesn't he.

Part of it's that, yes, but I remember him describing once something about how firm GM control was needed to prevent players building characters whose strengths compensated for their weaknesses. Or something. I wasn't paying attention at the time; in my defense, he's not a particularly engaging salesperson.

And yes. Penalties are key to his system; when he can't just rip the skills out from under a player, he'll start throwing -1s and -2s out of nowhere.

It annoyed me to no end, partly because of bookkeeping and partly because it's so transparent. On one day, having to work in bad light will be a -1; the next, not being able to see this and that and this and that are all -1, so the total penalty is -4, but he'll still staunchly claim that the darkness penalty has not changed. It's not a -4 penalty, it's a -1 penalty applied four times.

Yes, Marty has seriously argued that -1 * 4 =/= -4.

Feddlefew

2013-08-08, 03:47 AM

It annoyed me to no end, partly because of bookkeeping and partly because it's so transparent. On one day, having to work in bad light will be a -1; the next, not being able to see this and that and this and that are all -1, so the total penalty is -4, but he'll still staunchly claim that the darkness penalty has not changed. It's not a -4 penalty, it's a -1 penalty applied four times.

Yes, Marty has seriously argued that -1 * 4 =/= -4.

Well, if you want to get really technical, four -1 penalties are probably worse for PCs to deal with than one -4, because it's easier for the PCs to find a way to remove one penalty than many penalties. If that makes sense.

Trekkin

2013-08-08, 06:40 AM

Well, if you want to get really technical, four -1 penalties are probably worse for PCs to deal with than one -4, because it's easier for the PCs to find a way to remove one penalty than many penalties. If that makes sense.

Good point. That may have been what he meant, come to think of it.

jindra34

2013-08-08, 07:02 AM

128oz 191 proof alcohol... I guess Marty started his kill attempt early. Or would have if he knew anything reasonable about alcohol.
And not having anything to use at their headquarters... WHAT? (I've a feeling I be used to it by now but no.)
And the defense hole, the hangar.

But not your acting job, that was glorious.

And Marty trying to shut down your improv solution. POORLY.

Feddlefew

2013-08-08, 08:50 AM

Good point. That may have been what he meant, come to think of it.

Well, in that example it should have only been one big penalty instead of a bunch of small ones, because the solution to remove any one of those penalties ("find"/make/buy a better light source) would have removed them all.

Alejandro

2013-08-08, 09:19 AM

He claims to love the system, but he's never liked any character built with it.

Incidentally, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-drivers-ed.html).

Wow. I don't understand why you keep gaming with someone who's actively dedicated to reducing your player agency and fun, much less recognizing your contributions.

It would be like playing basketball with someone who routinely punched you in the face and then claimed it wasn't a foul.

The Glyphstone

2013-08-08, 01:38 PM

This is deep into the second thread. They stopped gaming long ago, this is a recounted tale of his misadventures under Marty.

VeliciaL

2013-08-08, 01:42 PM

Even at the time it seemed rather remarkable they were still gaming with the guy.

Alabenson

2013-08-08, 04:02 PM

Wow. I don't understand why you keep gaming with someone who's actively dedicated to reducing your player agency and fun, much less recognizing your contributions.

It would be like playing basketball with someone who routinely punched you in the face and then claimed it wasn't a foul.

No, the problem with that analogy is the guy who punches you in the face is still letting you actually play basketball. Having Marty as a GM is closer to a guy who forces you to sit on the sidelines and occasionally throws the ball at your head.

One Step Two

2013-08-08, 05:32 PM

No, the problem with that analogy is the guy who punches you in the face is still letting you actually play basketball. Having Marty as a GM is closer to a guy who forces you to sit on the sidelines and occasionally throws the ball at your head.

I think a better analogy is that Chief Circle is someone who claims to be a Chess master, but only if they're playing black (cause it's cooler), and all their pawns are queens already, instead of needing to traverse the board, the rules says it will happen anyway, it's more efficient this way. However, he stills wants you to play with normal pawns yourself, because that's how the balance works.

And even when you do decide to play, he stops you from actually moving a piece because clearly, you aren't capable of understanding his grand strategy, and would get in the way, so he instead plays both sides himself.

And despite all this, you can't leave, you need to watch how "clever" he is.

Mewtarthio

2013-08-08, 06:20 PM

I think a better analogy is that Chief Circle is someone who claims to be a Chess master, but only if they're playing black (cause it's cooler), and all their pawns are queens already, instead of needing to traverse the board, the rules says it will happen anyway, it's more efficient this way. However, he stills wants you to play with normal pawns yourself, because that's how the balance works.

And even when you do decide to play, he stops you from actually moving a piece because clearly, you aren't capable of understanding his grand strategy, and would get in the way, so he instead plays both sides himself.

And despite all this, you can't leave, you need to watch how "clever" he is.

Chess is far too restrictive to contain Chief Circle's greatness. He's actually playing Solitaire Calvinball. And cheating.

VeliciaL

2013-08-08, 06:22 PM

Chess is far too restrictive to contain Chief Circle's greatness. He's actually playing Solitaire Calvinball. And cheating.

Calvinchess?

One Step Two

2013-08-08, 06:49 PM

Chess is far too restrictive to contain Chief Circle's greatness. He's actually playing Solitaire Calvinball. And cheating.

I don't think he qualifies for Calvinball, he hasn't got the right kind of imagination.

Arbane

2013-08-08, 08:31 PM

And despite all this, you can't leave, you need to watch how "clever" he is.

I keep thinking of a quote from Knights of the Dinner Table: "Despite all the evidence staring him in the face, he continues to think highly of himself. I find this annoying."

Alejandro

2013-08-08, 10:13 PM

This is deep into the second thread. They stopped gaming long ago, this is a recounted tale of his misadventures under Marty.

My bad.

I could punch myself in the face and simulate his GMing, I guess.

Fecar

2013-08-09, 06:21 AM

My bad.

I could punch myself in the face and simulate his GMing, I guess.

I think it would be more like a flick to the crotch; every minute; for four hours. At first it doesn't seem so bad but it just keeps going and going and by the end you are tired, angry and in the kind of pain that makes you want to vomit.

’Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my stick.’ [...] We start trying to figure out how to capture the last one in the truck, but when we drive backward (and upside-down) into the wall, somehow the last Dhohanoid is squished.
Oh no, the players are having fun, better end this as soon as possible to stop that nonsense right now.

Feddlefew

2013-08-09, 06:26 PM

128oz 191 proof alcohol... I guess Marty started his kill attempt early. Or would have if he knew anything reasonable about alcohol..

This has been bothering me... Assuming that the "beverage" in question is Everclear 190 proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_%28alcohol%29)*. 128oz is about 3.7 liters. Chief gave you about 5 liters of Everclear. What kind of scummy dive bar gives someone 5 liters of booze?!?!

*An unholy abomination more sued for use as a fuel than an intoxicant. :smallyuk:

Arbane

2013-08-09, 06:34 PM

I think Trekkin mentioned his character's a teetotaler, he just collects alcohol because it's flammable.

Feddlefew

2013-08-09, 06:53 PM

I'm not bothered by Trekkin's character having it, I'm just wondering why a bar that size would have that much on hand....

Trekkin

2013-08-09, 06:55 PM

This has been bothering me... Assuming that the "beverage" in question is Everclear 190 proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_%28alcohol%29)*. 128oz is about 3.7 liters. Chief gave you about 5 liters of Everclear. What kind of scummy dive bar gives someone 5 liters of booze?!?!

*An unholy abomination more sued for use as a fuel than an intoxicant. :smallyuk:

Which is largely why my character was using it as a fuel / disguise rather than as an intoxicant.

And I have no idea. I think Chief has somehow gotten several disparate types of establishment conflated, especially now that I look at my map. Toby's had a full kitchen, $1000-a-bottle Échezeaux grand cru somehow on tap...and "some arcade machines and magazine stands and stuff."

Out of this schizophrenic mess do we get the idea that it's like a gas station convenience store and would serve immense gallon Super Mega Ultra Chug-a-Gulp cups of soda. Only it's a bar, so instead it's immense quantities of alcohol.

Alabenson

2013-08-09, 06:59 PM

I'm not bothered by Trekkin's character having it, I'm just wondering why a bar that size would have that much on hand....

Isn't it obvious?
This bar is in the, or at least a, Martyverse. Given what we know about the Martyverse, it wouldn't be a stretch to conclude that living there is such a horrible experience that the entities living within require gargantuan amounts of mind-numbing intoxicants/rocket fuel just to get through the day.

Either that or Marty is an imbecile with no concept of how reality works.

jindra34

2013-08-09, 07:09 PM

Which is largely why my character was using it as a fuel / disguise rather than as an intoxicant.

And I have no idea. I think Chief has somehow gotten several disparate types of establishment conflated, especially now that I look at my map. Toby's had a full kitchen, $1000-a-bottle Échezeaux grand cru somehow on tap...and "some arcade machines and magazine stands and stuff."

Out of this schizophrenic mess do we get the idea that it's like a gas station convenience store and would serve immense gallon Super Mega Ultra Chug-a-Gulp cups of soda. Only it's a bar, so instead it's immense quantities of alcohol.
Obviously the Toby's ACTUALLY has a small scale nano-fac for producing all the drinks. With all the bells and whistles needed.

The Glyphstone

2013-08-09, 07:11 PM

Isn't it obvious?
This bar is in the, or at least a, Martyverse. Given what we know about the Martyverse, it wouldn't be a stretch to conclude that living there is such a horrible experience that the entities living within require gargantuan amounts of mind-numbing intoxicants/rocket fuel just to get through the day.

Either that or Marty is an imbecile with no concept of how reality works.

Why do these have to be mutually exclusive?

The Glyphstone

2013-08-09, 07:26 PM

I'm sorry Glyphstone, but you have been removed from the rank of Eldritch Horror to make room for the GM described above, for there can only be one Eldritch Horror. :smallsmile:

There are things even Eldritch Horrors fear...CC/Marty is but their herald and high priest.:smallcool:

Arkhosia

2013-08-09, 07:27 PM

Sorry, accidentally deleted the post. Oops.

I'm sorry Glyphstone, but you have been removed from the rank of Eldritch Horror to make room for the GM described above, for there can only be one Eldritch Horror.

Feddlefew

2013-08-09, 07:50 PM

Hmm... I just realized I accidentally put liters instead of bottles in that post. Oh well.

But I suppose in martyverse 3.7L=5L isn't too much of a stretch...

jindra34

2013-08-09, 07:59 PM

Hmm... I just realized I accidentally put liters instead of bottles in that post. Oh well.

But I suppose in martyverse 3.7L=5L isn't too much of a stretch...

Lets put it another way, HALF-KEG. Not quite sure how one would even Drink from a container that big (because seriously that is no longer a cup or mug.)

Deffers

2013-08-09, 08:45 PM

Well, apparently with a straw. Presumably it's a funny cocktail drink bendy straw, since this Toby's establishment seems to be an entire business suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder.

Trekkin

2013-08-10, 12:35 AM

Incidentally, the next post may be a while. We've gotten to the part in the story where I'm in my element, that being high-energy chemistry and the practical applications thereof.

Unfortunately, it's incredibly illegal to describe that in my country, even in circumspect terms. Like, what-do-you-mean-"rights" levels of illegal.

I'm working on dolling it up until it's thoroughly useless without making it sound even dumber than Marty's science, but it occurs to me that nearly everything Cael does from here on out is both dangerous and educational, so it's tricky.

If nothing else, it makes a strong argument for RPGs employing alternative laws of physics, and therefore alternative laws of chemistry, so the campaign journals aren't considered instructions for making destructive devices.

LordChaos13

2013-08-10, 12:55 AM

Cant you just do a search&replace chemicals for gibberish? Most people wouldnt know the difference actually :smalltongue:

The ones who could figure it out would probably already know how to do it

Arbane

2013-08-10, 01:00 AM

Incidentally, the next post may be a while. We've gotten to the part in the story where I'm in my element, that being high-energy chemistry and the practical applications thereof.

Unfortunately, it's incredibly illegal to describe that in my country, even in circumspect terms. Like, what-do-you-mean-"rights" levels of illegal.

I'm working on dolling it up until it's thoroughly useless without making it sound even dumber than Marty's science, but it occurs to me that nearly everything Cael does from here on out is both dangerous and educational, so it's tricky.

There's probably no need to spell out all the details. As far as I can tell, it mostly comes down to "and then I tried to go all McGuyver, and CC said 'NO'."

Trekkin

2013-08-10, 01:03 AM

There's probably no need to spell out all the details. As far as I can tell, it mostly comes down to "and then I tried to go all McGuyver, and CC said 'NO'."

True, but the funny's in the details. Details like what our plan was, and what CC did to ruin it, which then implies troublesome things. If I remove everything questionable, we're a post out from being done.

...actually, that's not strictly true, but it's close.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-10, 01:09 AM

Trekkin

2013-08-10, 11:00 PM

Pretty good, actually.

Anyway, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-marty-is-bad-human_10.html).

This one is ugly.

Feddlefew

2013-08-11, 12:34 AM

I'm halfway through the lates post. "Liters" of Everclear was a typo, right?

Right?

:smalleek:

Balmas

2013-08-11, 01:12 AM

Sooo... apparently, scarring makes you stupid and ugly. Are you quite sure Marty's actually a human being?

Arbane

2013-08-11, 01:18 AM

Pretty good, actually.

Anyway, new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-marty-is-bad-human_10.html).

This one is ugly.

Indeed. Leaving aside the 'permanent stat loss' BS, (which your comments there have already covered,)

Lily died, and this puzzled us, because she didn’t lose nearly enough HP to die. Apparently “it just wouldn’t have been dramatic if nobody died.”
(SNIP)
So basically I was too effective, so Marty had to manually decide who lives and who dies.

He really is the worst GM ever. And this is the worst "playtest" ever. I had a GM who wasn't happy with encounters unless at least one PC was face-down in a pool of their own blood by the end, but at least she did it by the rules.

Sooo... apparently, scarring makes you stupid and ugly. Are you quite sure Marty's actually a human being?

Trekkin's already mentioned CC is seriously ableist.

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 01:30 AM

Trekkin's already mentioned CC is seriously ableist.

And, of course, there's the lack of any similar problem affecting Cael's shrapnel scars, burned arm, etc.

Yeah. Agonizing burn scars on Cael? Definitely totally fine. Cosmetic skin blemish on Darya? Inevitable insanity!

Like I said in the post title...

Arkhosia

2013-08-11, 01:32 AM

Oh god!
Please tell me he doesn't think disabled people are insane.

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 01:34 AM

Oh god!
Please tell me he doesn't think disabled people are insane.

You'll have to forgive me for never having looked for a chance to find out.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-11, 05:28 AM

jindra34

2013-08-11, 06:41 AM

Yeah... I think we are at the point where the last thread started... And boy was that a silly mess.

llehctim

2013-08-11, 10:00 AM

Also worth noting the player/character in question (not the one that died) had stated that they didn't care about scars due to being a mafia/assassin and scars being a point of pride among warriors etc. Thus I figured I'ld heal her when I wasn't dying (I also figured that there was scar healing technology available, etc.), thus prompting the GM 'implying' that I should do so now, despite the 5(or more factoring in observed statistical patternsof my dice rolls)% chance of death

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 10:33 AM

Is it okay to say that I really, really wish you'd found some way to not skip most of the engineering? Surely you can give us something. Especially because of all the CC-attempting-to-negate-your-skill-investment-at-every-step-of-the-process that I'm sure it involved.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most of the missing information is in the first thread anyways and you didn't get any SWAT raids when you posted it then.

It very carefully was not in the first thread.

Thankfully, from here on out the problem solves itself. As we'll see, for the rest of the game I never got to do that again. Not like that, anyway, minimally effective though it was, so I can freely describe them in detail.

jindra34

2013-08-11, 11:59 AM

Trekkin can you at least give us a rolls count? Like the 26 for your ramshackle Grill?

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 12:40 PM

The overall process took, according to my notes, 145. The nets took 8 and the grill took 26, so the bulk of them concerned the bar. Most of the rolls were, by the way, of the "can i do this?" "roll [skill]...no." format, at least for the actual wiring.

Of the various things I can actually mention, disabling a camera just by twisting it on its mounting post (which is a silly way to do it anyway) takes five separate rolls. Approaching it without being seen, grabbing it, turning it, letting go, and backing away. Each of these can use any of Sneak, Repair, Engineering, Security, or Computer Use, at GM discretion.

There were rolls to measure things, weigh things, count things... at one point, I had to roll to know how to poke up a panel in a drop cieling, then again to actually do it, then again to not lose my balance, then again to put it down without scratching it on the panel rails.

jindra34

2013-08-11, 12:48 PM

Right so now characters are capable of failing basic math because the die says so, and I'm going to assume its not like counting 100 or so of something.

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 01:16 PM

Of course not. The TN was equal to the number of objects being counted, for some unfathomable reason.

jindra34

2013-08-11, 01:28 PM

Had a feeling it was like that. And that means that an average person (likely) couldn't even confirm that a carton of eggs had a dozen eggs in them. And almost assuredly couldn't confirm that a package of 16 cans of tomato sauce actually had that many cans... Assuming of course NPCs used that rule. Though it is a very good method of making people/characters/players completely ridiculously incompetent, which was obviously the goal.

llehctim

2013-08-11, 01:38 PM

Feddlefew

2013-08-11, 01:59 PM

I had an epiphany of why we kept playing for so long.

its because beating impossible situations is what makes heroes, and we thought we were the heroes till the end. Since that's usually the PCs job.

Now I am technically still playing, but I don't plan to be a hero, I will play some of the most introverted characters I have ever played, and more or less ignore all plot/external things. I'm also there to try and minimize the negative view on RPGs for the 2 players who have never played RPGs before. And because I am still going to try to help him fix the system, with showing how some rules don't work well and how some are sill.

"I'm not the hero the system deserves, but I'm the hero it needs."

No.

You must become the system incarnation of The Snarl, slowly growing stronger with each broken rule and deranged piece of fluff you find, until you burst free from your PC host in a shower of viscera and devour the entire setting.

(I would suggest getting a set of rules printed on edible paper, or a cookie, and devouring them when the time comes.)

Arbane

2013-08-11, 02:00 PM

its because beating impossible situations is what makes heroes, and we thought we were the heroes till the end. Since that's usually the PCs job.

Makes perfect sense to me. (That, and possibly a bit of the Sunk Cost Fallacy...)

"I'm not the hero the system deserves, but I'm the hero it needs."

*snerk*

But I can't help thinking the hero the other players need would beat CC senseless with his own dicebag, set fire to the rules, and lead the newbies to a better game.

And because I am still going to try to help him fix the system, with showing how some rules don't work well and how some are sill.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that CC will pay any attention at all to your mighty and heroic efforts at feedback? Remember, it's broken just the way he wants it, except for those pesky moments of PC competence he hasn't managed to eliminate yet.

Oh, well. Keep us posted on your swan-dive back into the pit of CC's stupidity.

You must become the system incarnation of The Snarl, slowly growing stronger with each broken rule and deranged piece of fluff you find, until you burst free from your PC host in a shower of viscera and devour the entire setting.

Fun idea, but I'd say what you need to destroy isn't the system, that's just a symptom. The problem is CC's fantasy egomania.

If I somehow ever ended up in your game, I thought through what I'd say to the other players at the Divine Advent of Marty Stu:

(to Marty) Don't make me laugh. You're supposed to be the great omniversal tyrant? You couldn't conquer my sock-drawer.

(to the other PCs) Well, guys, it's time I told you all the truth. None of this is real, and I'm going to prove it. Marty, here, actually got defeated pretty soundly on one of his megalomania-driven rampages, and is imprisoned inside his own delusions. Haven't you noticed how inconsistent the world is?

(Assuming at this point I get smited by the Pudgy hand Of Ghod) See? He can't even make me shut up. I'm still here, and you can hear me. You can leave this place. Just rise up (start packing my stuff) and follow me to a better place. There's no reason to suffer here. (Leaves the room.)

Feel free to use it when the time comes. Add more insults and weird meta stuff to taste.

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 02:23 PM

Nice, Arbane. You will, I think, like the epilogue of SUETHULU.

I agree about putting the newbies in a better game, though.

Feddlefew

2013-08-11, 02:54 PM

Yeah, I like Arbane's idea better than mine. 8^)

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 02:58 PM

Aw, really? But it ended up being kinda both...

nah, mustn't spoil it.

Feddlefew

2013-08-11, 03:14 PM

Aw, really? But it ended up being kinda both...

nah, mustn't spoil it.

One of the players had a weasel king moment, then (in no particular order) declared their character was a Lovecraft-clasic eldrich abomination, laid waste to the setting, and gave Chief/Marty a This is Why You Suck speech?

Edit: I forgot "offering the otherplayers to come join their new campaign" in that list.

llehctim

2013-08-11, 04:36 PM

Makes perfect sense to me. (That, and possibly a bit of the Sunk Cost Fallacy...)

*snerk*

But I can't help thinking the hero the other players need would beat CC senseless with his own dicebag, set fire to the rules, and lead the newbies to a better game.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that CC will pay any attention at all to your mighty and heroic efforts at feedback? Remember, it's broken just the way he wants it, except for those pesky moments of PC competence he hasn't managed to eliminate yet.

Oh, well. Keep us posted on your swan-dive back into the pit of CC's stupidity.

Fun idea, but I'd say what you need to destroy isn't the system, that's just a symptom. The problem is CC's fantasy egomania.

If I somehow ever ended up in your game, I thought through what I'd say to the other players at the Divine Advent of Marty Stu:

(to Marty) Don't make me laugh. You're supposed to be the great omniversal tyrant? You couldn't conquer my sock-drawer.

(to the other PCs) Well, guys, it's time I told you all the truth. None of this is real, and I'm going to prove it. Marty, here, actually got defeated pretty soundly on one of his megalomania-driven rampages, and is imprisoned inside his own delusions. Haven't you noticed how inconsistent the world is?

(Assuming at this point I get smited by the Pudgy hand Of Ghod) See? He can't even make me shut up. I'm still here, and you can hear me. You can leave this place. Just rise up (start packing my stuff) and follow me to a better place. There's no reason to suffer here. (Leaves the room.)

Feel free to use it when the time comes. Add more insults and weird meta stuff to taste.

He added a step between exhausted and dying from spellcasting, which was going to be a coma, but I recommended magical burnout instead and he agreed. And yes, and I do plan to take the rules and break them, just to demonstrate that they are broken, or to get away with it and cause shenanigans.

Suffice to say If I wanted I could and may do something like that (especially given the character's focus on non-existance aka things like the sphere of annihilation, as the theme). Also the character is going to have a black hole backstory if I can aka popped up one day fully sentient with low lvl magic.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-11, 07:53 PM

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 08:06 PM

In the process of doing so. Contrary to appearances, I do give some thought to how I word things, and I've been working most of this weekend.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-08-11, 08:07 PM

Hey, ANY thought is so much better than this...this...

And this is the part where I curse the censors.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-11, 10:09 PM

In the process of doing so. Contrary to appearances, I do give some thought to how I word things, and I've been working most of this weekend.

Okay, good. Thing is, the latest entry mostly describes you being wildly successful and competent, without elaborating upon how utterly despite Marty's GMing that was.

Trekkin

2013-08-11, 10:28 PM

Quite. It's just tricky to describe all his petty quibbles without outlining exactly what I was trying to do.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-08-11, 11:58 PM

Why not say things like, "mixing blur with blur in censored fashion will always cause big bangs?" Or am I just not making sense because I'm about to go to bed?

Big Fau

2013-08-12, 12:30 AM

I'm all caught up on the blog, and I have to say that Marty's crusade against free will is only matched by his stupidity. Fudging HP is one thing (and acceptable as long as the party's resources don't get drained), but arbitrary killing a character "for dramatic purposes" and docking a character's ability scores because of a combat mishap (even if he admitted to that being a chauvinistic move) is horrible.

I spare mentioning the gross lapse in the laws of physics because that's been covered time and again, and I don't think the catgirl population deserves more injustice because of my frustration with Marty.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-12, 01:08 AM

Quite. It's just tricky to describe all his petty quibbles without outlining exactly what I was trying to do.

A summary such as the one I quoted earlier gets the point across more than well enough.

Alejandro

2013-08-12, 08:16 AM

And because I am still going to try to help him fix the system, with showing how some rules don't work well and how some are sill.

"I'm not the hero the system deserves, but I'm the hero it needs."

HA! While I commend your staying power, you're just being an enabler at this point. As others have more eloquently put it, he doesn't want to fix the system, he wants to fix you. You're the square peg, and he is going to beat you with his insane game-bortion until you fit through his round hole.

llehctim

2013-08-12, 12:47 PM

HA! While I commend your staying power, you're just being an enabler at this point. As others have more eloquently put it, he doesn't want to fix the system, he wants to fix you. You're the square peg, and he is going to beat you with his insane game-bortion until you fit through his round hole.

Heroes are born through adversity, where there is a will there is a way etc.
Really though kind of just want to be a player in at least one game where I don't really need to put in much effort. GMing is hard, especially the logistics.

What's more annoying is now I can't do GMing without wanting to be a player and vice versa. A symptom of the grass is always greener view I suppose.

Trekkin

2013-08-12, 05:57 PM

A summary such as the one I quoted earlier gets the point across more than well enough.

Fair enough. Does this new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-and-worse-gm.html) help?

Eldan

2013-08-12, 06:15 PM

There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. And facepalming.

jindra34

2013-08-12, 06:27 PM

Right... Um... I got nothing. Thats about the only way to describe it.

Alabenson

2013-08-12, 07:36 PM

Arkhosia

2013-08-12, 09:40 PM

Soooo... No one actually knows 7nth grade level chemistry? And these people are intelligent enough after years of information deprivation to build advanced machines?
"That boat exploded when I dropped my nitrogen coolant out of it! Must be magic."

Trekkin

2013-08-12, 11:06 PM

Yep. Just like Chief Circle.

Seriously, he's got no idea how matter works. He tried suggesting a jet-black Concorde, for goodness' sakes.

Ironically because it'd be cool.

Feddlefew

2013-08-12, 11:27 PM

Yep. Just like Chief Circle.

Seriously, he's got no idea how matter works. He tried suggesting a jet-black Concorde, for goodness' sakes.

Ironically because it'd be cool.

As in paint it jet black? :smallconfused:

Trekkin

2013-08-12, 11:33 PM

Yes, as in painted jet black. It's a great idea until the fuselage melts off.

Feddlefew

2013-08-13, 12:21 AM

I thought it was something like that. Mostly because I wasn't quite willing to accept the idea of aircraft made from jet. :smalleek:

Arbane

2013-08-13, 12:35 AM

Every single time I'm convinced I've seen the worst Marty can offer, every single time I'm certain that I've witnessed the extent of his inability to grasp basic logic...
Marty finds a way to surprise me.

And he's planning to be an engineer. I really, REALLY hope whoever hires him kicks him upstairs to his natural role as Management before he designs any airborne deathtraps.

georgie_leech

2013-08-13, 01:18 AM

And he's planning to be an engineer. I really, REALLY hope whoever hires him kicks him upstairs to his natural role as Management before he designs any airborne deathtraps.

No, I really, REALLY, REALLY hope he is never hired and never put into a position of power over anyone, so long as he's this egotistical, abrasive, offensive, and clueless. I shudder to think of what he'd be like as somebody's boss..

kardar233

2013-08-13, 02:42 AM

And he's planning to be an engineer. I really, REALLY hope whoever hires him kicks him upstairs to his natural role as Management before he designs any airborne deathtraps.

His name wouldn't be Jeff, would it? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2003/08/05/episode-315-the-lesser-of-two-cons/)

Sith_Happens

2013-08-13, 03:57 AM

Fair enough. Does this new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/suethulu-and-worse-gm.html) help?

[Insert additional demands here.]

[...Just kidding. I'm good.:smalltongue:]

jindra34

2013-08-13, 07:41 AM

His name wouldn't be Jeff, would it? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2003/08/05/episode-315-the-lesser-of-two-cons/)

I'd think he'd have more in common with AKBAR than Jeff. After all they both sell junk, Akbar just insist his junk isn't actually junk.

georgie_leech

2013-08-13, 09:04 AM

I'd think he'd have more in common with AKBAR than Jeff. After all they both sell junk, Akbar just insist his junk isn't actually junk.

Yeah, but Akbar is also their go-to for any sort of shady business man, whereas Jeff there is specific to flying machines, thus the comparison to CC's actual engineering ability.

Alabenson

2013-08-13, 10:05 AM

No, I really, REALLY, REALLY hope he is never hired and never put into a position of power over anyone, so long as he's this egotistical, abrasive, offensive, and clueless. I shudder to think of what he'd be like as somebody's boss..

Sadly, from my experience I think you just described the traits companies look for when hiring for retail management.

Feddlefew

2013-08-13, 01:13 PM

Sadly, from my experience I think you just described the traits companies look for when hiring for retail management.

Also management in R&D.

Arbane

2013-08-13, 02:26 PM

No, I really, REALLY, REALLY hope he is never hired and never put into a position of power over anyone, so long as he's this egotistical, abrasive, offensive, and clueless. I shudder to think of what he'd be like as somebody's boss..

You could stop after "never hired", really. CC reminds me a lot of The Emperor Of The Universe (http://www.viruscomix.com/page554.html).

Arkhosia

2013-08-13, 07:32 PM

No, I really, REALLY, REALLY hope he is never hired and never put into a position of power over anyone, so long as he's this egotistical, abrasive, offensive, and clueless. I shudder to think of what he'd be like as somebody's boss..

You don't have to worry as he obviously doesn't know how burning works.

TeChameleon

2013-08-13, 07:55 PM

... I'm really not sure who I pity more, Chief Circle or his players. His players for obvious reasons, and Chief Circle himself because... well...

He bases his self worth on the performance of artificial creations based on his arbitrary standards of 'kewlness', against the creations of people who are using rules he created to make their characters?

Really?

That's possibly the most pathetic thing about this whole debacle.

comicshorse

2013-08-14, 10:48 AM

Read the latest post and there are no words for this (at least none that will make it past the Playgrounds censors)

CoffeeIncluded

2013-08-14, 12:23 PM

How in the world did you even tolerate this for so long?

Arbane

2013-08-14, 02:44 PM

Okay, good. Thing is, the latest entry mostly describes you being wildly successful and competent, without elaborating upon how utterly despite Marty's GMing that was.

I suspect this is the point at which Chief Circle really clamped down on the subversive and wrongheaded concepts of "competence" and "player agency", resulting in the ever-shifting quagmire that drove Trekkin to post here in the first place.

Feddlefew

2013-08-14, 09:23 PM

I suspect this is the point at which Chief Circle really clamped down on the subversive and wrongheaded concepts of "competence" and "player agency", resulting in the ever-shifting quagmire that drove Trekkin to post here in the first place.

I fixed that for you. :smallfrown:

Trekkin

2013-08-14, 10:21 PM

And you're right. It was after this session that I started posting, just before things got really bad.

comicshorse

2013-08-16, 05:18 AM

The fact that you don't characterise what went before as 'really bad' speaks volumes about the horrors to come

Arbane

2013-08-18, 10:32 PM

This sank all the way to page 2. UNACCEPTABLE!

The folks at RPG.net called (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?699538-Plot-devices-that-need-to-go-die-in-a-fire&p=17096624#post17096624), with some good advice for depicting bosses in RPGs for Chief Circle:

Mmmhmm, well said.

I don't mind working for General Jerkface Kickass so long as he or she is played well, by appropriate rules. There's some things people should know about playing stronger NPC mentor/boss characters next to the PCs:

1) First of all the PCs are your main characters. .

2) If the NPC is a jerk, then show he's mostly a jerk to others.

3) If you want me to like this NPC in or out of character, make her worthy of respect and liking for a reason besides power.

4) This NPC is not stupidly overpowered for what he is.

5) Again, the PCs are the main characters, so your NPC should not be really upstaging them.

6) If he is totally supposed to be a pain in the ***, don't act like he's also totally worthy of respect and enforce that on us by GM bull****** and GMNPC super powers.

I think CC fails at all of them except POSSIBLY #2.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-18, 10:43 PM

Malrone

2013-08-19, 12:11 AM

llehctim

2013-08-19, 04:29 AM

Trees? No, no, I said there were areas that were basically parks. They're really more of a sort of patch of greenery. You see, nano-fabricated composites automatically filter oxygen into the air, so large plants are largely outmoded and unwanted.

"I think it's the worst, but it always gets worse" has to be the most common post theme in this thread.

Backtracking to Marty is a Bad Human (I've been away from the net for a good while):
The consideration of fixed-points in history is something that has been played with before, and was put forward in at least one Dr. Who episode I've watched. Now, while I am loathe to defend CC in any capacity, Devil's Advocate is my natural state; Free Will Vs Determinism is a theme that deserves to be explored, in my opinion, not simply discarded in the face of Marty's inestimable logic.

I acknowledge the fixed point in history being a cool story concept (when done right), but note that Dr. Who is primarily a story, where coincidentally the doctor is a marty stu (done right mind you, odd as that sounds). but when you are playing an RPG, its vastly different from reading a story, in that at some point you want to be heroes, even if you have to trudge through non-hero times of working your way up, but when the likely villain is literally off the scale powerful with weaknesses written away and reality bending to his will absolutely ... it is demoralizing.

PS: also the fixed points should be natural not put there by the BBEG.

Trekkin

2013-08-19, 10:08 PM

Free Will Vs Determinism is a theme that deserves to be explored, in my opinion, not simply discarded in the face of Marty's inestimable logic.

Fair point. But there's a difference between exploring it and slapping your players in the face with it, leaving no alternative and permitting no deviance.

Also, unrelated but new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/not-suethulhu-marty-player.html). This one has minor Deadlands spoilers.

jindra34

2013-08-19, 10:21 PM

You know given everything about that character it almost would have made SENSE to subtly rework it so that the rules were reversed. Namely him being the demon not the original host spirit... Predictable badness though.

Sith_Happens

2013-08-19, 10:36 PM

Also, unrelated but new post (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/08/not-suethulhu-marty-player.html). This one has minor Deadlands spoilers.

Hey, when I guessed he was Buffalo before you both sort-of-didn't-deny it! Liars.:smalltongue:

I'm surprised anyone actually answered in the affirmative after the third "Who's carrying me?" It's not exactly hard to leave a head and arm lying by the road/in a ditch, however fast you'd have to run afterward to keep from becoming on fire.

Now I have to reread Reflections in light of Ziggy being CC...

Trekkin

2013-08-19, 11:03 PM

To parody CC: CC never played Ziggy. But really he never did; we wrote a generally nonviolent con artist who loved performing for kids because he liked rapt adoration (and was prideful as all get out) but that wasn't cool enough for CC, oh no. He needed to be a crime lord to feel cool.

He also didn't like the implication that Ziggy was proud, which was just hilarious.

Arbane

2013-08-19, 11:16 PM

Why did you keep playing with this waste of carbon, again?

Trekkin

2013-08-19, 11:25 PM

The other DM really wanted him in and kept promising he'd get better, and the other players were all variously neutralish about keeping him in until the very end, with the cyborging. Seeing him try desperately to refuse what was essentially an upgrade wrapped in a second chance really put them off him.

CoffeeIncluded

2013-08-20, 01:14 AM

This thing is like a trainwreck. No. It is a trainwreck. Every single time I didn't think it could get worse, surprise!

Seriously, if I pulled a stunt like that I'd get kicked out, and for good reason. If one of my players pulled stunts like that, I'd boot them before they could start whining.

Trekkin

2013-08-20, 01:28 AM

Tiny not-update: I realized after rereading the post that something may have gotten confused. The "I am in control" thing was when he was, in fact, in control -- he had gotten so mean that the difference between CC-Ziggy and Demon-Ziggy was chiefly one of style. He had gone nuts during the mission, been restrained, and then immediately after that crack I had the demon take over again, primarily to stop him saying anything else. They do have a sense of self-preservation.

The post has been clarified, I hope.

There was talk at one point about permanently locking the demon in control and seeing if he was more reasonable, but they made their A:Occult roll to know that they're fairly devious liars and would probably represent an unacceptable level of risk.

Feddlefew

2013-08-20, 01:37 AM

There was talk at one point about permanently locking the demon in control and seeing if he was more reasonable, but they made their A:Occult roll to know that they're fairly devious liars and would probably represent an unacceptable level of risk.

I think I would have gone with the demon, personally. NE is better than SE, after all. :smallyuk:

Eldan

2013-08-20, 03:56 AM

You know things have gone Haywire when a demon needs to take over to stop the possessed from being too evil.

llehctim

2013-08-20, 10:35 AM

I will admit that in hindsight many of my actions were not helpful and were detrimental to the situation.
I have a bit of a history of being ... that guyish, but I only do really nasty things when I believe the group (or the half I like) is being greatly offended by someone who wont listen.
I had played deadlands before and due to being tragically unlucky (out of character) and heroic I tended to die once or twice a session, so had a different (and correct based on how it recommends playing deadlands) view on what a Horror adventure was likely to entail, along with being paranoid and suspicious about allies who could turn on you (and that my character was trained to distrust and protect people from). a big feature of the game is that many of the arcane backgrounds have huge backlashes for failing (or black/red jokers) that can do nasty things to them or the rest of the group, so a healthy amount of mistrust can happen, and then can fade away as the team gets closer together and helps out.
I can't count the number of times Madsci devices have screwed over my characters by failing or working as intended with the user not caring about collateral damage [curse you flash grenades only succeeding at blinding me].
So I figured that if I were playing a harrowed, I wouldn't be too offended by people making plans to neutralize me if I lost control, however he overplayed his doubting tom (basically not believing in supernatural things) and none of his other hinderances, nor would he buy off the doubting tom or tone it down (unless it involved his magic hat or fireballs [somehow they were exceptions, but no others were allowed])

Also I believe part of the 'convincing' the mob and us not to kill him was me branding him with an upside down cross on his forehead with heretic under it, after he botched an untrained roll of faith to put 2 spirits to rest (as a possessed corpse with no knowledge of the faith or actual faith) and brought them back as zombies instead terrifying the child of the 2 dead parents. I was informed complete party murder was not an option.

Trekkin

2013-08-20, 12:08 PM

The mad scientist was similarly delusional, but he was smart enough to restrain himself OOC from doing anything particularly dangerous where it could hurt the party -- with the exception of his "nonlethal flash bullets", which were hollowpoint magnesium .45 bullets filled with a mixture of gunpowder, white phosphorous, and magnesium, then tipped with a very tiny direct action fuse so they'd explode "harmlessly, like a flashbang" on contact with the target.

He knew they'd be lethal on any malfunction. They malfunctioned a lot. Even so, he made a significant effort to limit the damage, acknowledged they were imperfect, and it never got beyond something everyone laughed about.

"No no, these are safety bullets. I filled them with explosive toxins so they're safe!"

llehctim

2013-08-20, 12:37 PM