Mundane Invisibility Negation [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Maginomicon

2013-05-07, 05:10 AM

How would you negate a foe's invisibility if you don't have access to magic?

I'm aware of the "flour pouch" trick...
Flour Pouch: This deceptively simple burlap satchel of flour is tied loosely on purpose. While it could be used to bake a loaf of bread on a particularly long expedition, its true purpose is to locate invisible opponents. You can attempt to strike an invisible opponent with a flour pouch as a touch attack. You still must pinpoint the target or choose a space to attack into, and the normal miss chance for total concealment applies. If you hit the target, the pouch bursts open, spilling white flour over a portion of the invisible creature. You can also throw a flour pouch as a splash weapon; any invisible creature standing in the space struck is covered in flour, as are all other creatures within 5 feet.
Coating an invisible creature in flour lets you keep track of its position and reduces the miss chance to 20% (instead of the normal 50% for total concealment). While an invisible creature is coated in flour, its bonus on Hide checks is reduced to +10 if the creature is moving, or to +20 if it is not moving (PH76). If the creature moves through water, is subjected to a gust of wind, or spends a full-round action brushing the flour off, all the flour is removed from its body.

...but who bothers to bring a bag of flour anyway? It's expended when thrown, and you have to pick the right square to attack... what a pain in the rear... the create water trick (let water flow over the floor and see where it passes around the invisible foe's feet) has the same problem because you'd still be expending a resource to do it...

Consider this though:
Assume your invisible foe can't fly.
Hand to an ally an end of two lengths of rope.
Take the other ends of the two ropes in your own hands.
You and your ally walk to one end of the room and spread out to adjacent corners (the ropes are now strung out taut between you both, one rope held ~4ft above the ground and the other ~2ft above the ground).
Check to see if there's a bend in the rope where there shouldn't be as you both hold the rope ends taut against your shared wall.
Delay action as-needed so that you both act on the same initiative.
At the same time, you both hold the rope taut and... run to the other end of the room! (creating effectively two fast-moving tripwires)

Dodge that, mutha****er! There's no reason you'd be allowed a reflex save when there's two ropes to snag on! (One high or one low you can dodge, sure, that's reasonable because you could jump one or duck the other, but when there's one of each? Nope. You'd need some really fancy acrobatics to not get snagged.)

Even if you only have one rope, you can do this trick at half the normal room width by having your ally hold the middle of the rope while you hold both ends of the rope.

Even if you could reason that the invisible foe could use an attack of opportunity to cut one rope (and jump over or duck under the other one), they've then cut the rope so you know where they are anyway (oops).

-------

EDIT: By the by, regardless of everything said below, this trick will most certainly ALWAYS work against invisible non-floating objects in the room.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-05-07, 05:19 AM

That....... really won't work.

1) Why in the world do you think that the invisible foe is simply going to stand in one spot while you and your ally go through this odd "ritual?" Especially if you're not moving particularly quickly on the first pass.

2)Vaulting over a 4ft obstacle without touching it isn't particularly difficult. Certainly not difficult enough to warrant it allowing no reflex save.

3) Most foes carry some kind of edged weapon. What exactly will keep them from cutting your ropes?

Pinpoint with a listen check and use the flower pouch, otherwise wait for the wizard to glitter-dust the stupid thing.

Maginomicon

2013-05-07, 05:29 AM

1) Why in the world do you think that the invisible foe is simply going to stand in one spot while you and your ally go through this odd "ritual?" Especially if you're not moving particularly quickly on the first pass. I said "run"... as in a run action. That's pretty damn fast.

2)Vaulting over a 4ft obstacle without touching it isn't particularly difficult. Certainly not difficult enough to warrant it allowing no reflex save.Not when it's not your turn, and even so, it's a DC 32 jump check to jump 4ft straight up without a running start.

3) Most foes carry some kind of edged weapon. What exactly will keep them from cutting your ropes?I covered that in the OP.

Pinpoint with a listen check and use the flower pouch, otherwise wait for the wizard to glitter-dust the stupid thing.The thread is about MUNDANE invisibility negation. The very first line of the OP says "if you don't have access to magic"! Besides, a listen check would have to beat DC of the invisible foe's move silently check by 20 to pinpoint it.

-------------

Come to think of it, you can do this trick with one person, a length of rope, and a quarterstaff or club by tying the rope to the end of the quarterstaff (or club) and using it to swing the rope out into the room like a whip (admittedly, then it would make sense to allow a reflex save since you only are swinging one rope).

The Mentalist

2013-05-07, 05:35 AM

Assume your invisible foe can't fly. Big assumption
Hand to an ally an end of two lengths of rope. Move action (minimum) to pull out the rope
Take the other ends of the two ropes in your own hands.
You and your ally walk to one end of the room and spread out to adjacent corners (the ropes are now strung out taut between you both, one rope held ~4ft above the ground and the other ~2ft above the ground). Another Move action that only works in a regularly shaped room
Check to see if there's a bend in the rope where there shouldn't be as you both hold the rope ends taut against your shared wall.
Delay action as-needed so that you both act on the same initiative.
At the same time, you both hold the rope taut and... run to the other end of the room! (creating effectively two fast-moving tripwires) And a third move action

Dodge that, mutha****er! There's no reason you'd be allowed a reflex save when there's two ropes to snag on!

The DM can call for whatever save he wants and is well within his rights as I'll explain in a moment.

(One high or one low you can dodge, sure, that's reasonable because you could jump one or duck the other, but when there's one of each? Nope. You'd need some really fancy acrobatics to not get snagged.)

Fancy acrobatics are what a reflex save are.

Even if you only have one rope, you can do this trick at half the normal room width by having your ally hold the middle of the rope while you hold both ends of the rope.

Even if you could reason that the invisible foe could use an attack of opportunity to cut one rope (and jump over or duck under the other one), they've then cut the rope so you know where they are anyway (oops).

Actually you'd just know that they were in the room, your rope cut somewhere, that doesn't mean that you've pinpointed them once you've recovered from your maneuver.

Even if you do manage to knock them down they get a move action to get away from where you dropped them and their miss chance has not been negated, and you've just wasted three rounds of actions for 1 player and 2 rounds for another. You're also forgetting the invisible creature can ready an action to drop prone and avoid your ropes altogether.

Simpler version
Step 1: Be a prepared person in a world where people want to kill you and can turn invisible and carry a 1lb bag of flour.
Step 2: Make a move action listen check or ready an action to flour where you're attacked from.
Step 3: Make an attack (AC 5) against the square you hear him in and make him semi-visible.

Seriously, flour is a vital requirement in an adventure's life, it doesn't even have to be flour, I use chalk dust personally, good for gripping things(+1-2 climb), good for leaving marks in the mazes, good for blowing in the face to create a cough (+1-2 to bluff for feint depending on your DM), and it locates invisible creatures in several different ways, you can throw it in the air like a cloud and watch for gaps, you can hit them with it for the pinpoint and miss concealment or you can lay tripwires and chalk them with string. All for like a copper. (two if you use the string)

A colored fluid is also effective (especially something tacky) and could be thrown as a cone effect or from a sprayer (10ft cone for flasks) if your DM is RAWish to spot. Heck, some rust in water would do it. Or mud, mud would be very good.

Parra

2013-05-07, 05:49 AM

Why would you assume there would be no reflex save? (or tumble check or attack roll)

The opponent still has a chance to avoid an attack so some sort of roll would be involved. My money would be on some sort of touch attack to give you the square they are in.
This is assuming the opponent hasn't readied an action to avoid the rope somehow i.e tumble, jump, slashing the rope or just plain leaving the area

Maginomicon

2013-05-07, 05:50 AM

Even if you do manage to knock them down they get a move action...Not when it's not their turn.

You're also forgetting the invisible creature can ready an action to drop prone and avoid your ropes altogether.That's why you whisper the plan secretly to your allies instead of yelling it out to the entire room like a moron.

Be a prepared person in a world where people want to kill you and can turn invisible and carry a 1lb bag of flour.That's absurd, for the reasons I already stated, notably, the fact that it's a one-use item. No adventurer besides maybe the party rogue is going to think to carry around such a thing, and even then, it's a one-use item. Besides, you talk about me wasting actions getting this stuff ready, but while talking is a free action, pulling out a bag of flour requires you spend time getting it out (assuming you even have one).

Seriously, flour is a vital requirement in an adventure's life, it doesn't even have to be flour, I use chalk dust personally, good for gripping things(+1-2 climb), good for leaving marks in the mazes, good for blowing in the face to create a cough (+1-2 to bluff for feint depending on your DM), and it locates invisible creatures in several different ways, you can throw it in the air like a cloud and watch for gaps, you can hit them with it for the pinpoint and miss concealment or you can lay tripwires and chalk them with string. All for like a copper. (two if you use the string)The listen check DC = foe's move silently check (if any) + 20. Not gonna happen. And oh goody more expendables that most adventurers aren't going to think to bring.

------------

By the way, this might not have been obvious, but consider what you'd have your other allies do during all this. (Tell your other allies "Ready an action to shoot at the spot where it snags or is cut.")

The Mentalist

2013-05-07, 06:01 AM

Not when it's not their turn.

No, but you've already used your actions for the round (and several others)

That's why you whisper the plan secretly to your allies instead of yelling it out to the entire room like a moron.

What was that about listen checks?

That's absurd, for the reasons I already stated, notably, the fact that it's a one-use item.

No. Seriously. Every character I have ever had has carried around a bag of flour. I'm sure many others have too. This is a world where things semi-routinely turn invisible and things want to kill you... flour just makes sense, but like I said, I prefer chalk dust, more uses.

No adventurer besides maybe the party rogue is going to think to carry around such a thing, and even then, it's a one-use item.

Or y'know... a lot of people.

Besides, you talk about me wasting actions getting this stuff ready, but while talking is a free action, pulling out a bag of flour requires you spend time getting it out (assuming you even have one).

Pulling out the rope is an action, (as is getting the flour to be fair) moving to one end of the room is an action, (you're behind) and the run is a FULL ROUND ACTION (meaning the potentially prone (I'm assuming he gets a save or a tumble check) automatically gets to act before you act again to move away from this overly complicated trip attempt.

DC listen check DC = foe's move silently check + 20. Not gonna happen. And oh goody more expendables that most adventurers aren't going to think to bring.

Note the alternate ready action possibility and the fact that the items I mentioned have a weight of - so if you can afford the two copper you're simply thoughtless in not taking them. You are going into a life and death situation you take ANYTHING that gives you the advantage. Especially if it's only a few ounces.

By the way, this might not have been obvious, but consider what you'd have your other allies do during all this. (Tell your other allies "Ready an action to shoot at the spot where it snags or is cut.")

And they still suffer miss chance, hitting a falling target you can't see is kind of a pain.

Though. Swinging a length of rope and seeing where it snags would be a good option here, if you do it with a spiked chain (not that I recommend this) you might even get damage out of it

Frozen_Feet

2013-05-07, 06:04 AM

Maginomicon

2013-05-07, 06:05 AM

Oops, missed some because of how reply-to-quotes work on the forum.

Big assumptionYeah, that's why it's the first thing on the list.

...only works in a regularly shaped roomFair cop there.

And a third move actionRun action on the same initiative.

Fancy acrobatics are what a reflex save are.Even so, there's no way the GM would be justified in setting the DC at anything less than 20 (probably higher depending on how you and your allies set it up).

Actually you'd just know that they were in the room, your rope cut somewhere, that doesn't mean that you've pinpointed them once you've recovered from your maneuver.Actually, that's exactly what it would mean since you'd have other allies standing by with ready actions to snipe that bastard, watching for where it snags or is cut (or even including you and your partner since there's no reason you couldn't be keeping an eye on the rope while you're running across the room)

--------
Furthermore...

Make an attack (AC 5) against the square you hear him in and make him semi-visible.That doesn't actually work, since you'd be targeting the square, not the creature, so the flour pouch would just spill out on the floor, not the creature. That's why it says in the flour pouch description that you'd have to make a ranged touch attack with total concealment (total concealment rolls are made secretly by the GM).

The Mentalist

2013-05-07, 06:08 AM

Though actually since I'm thinking about the concept of mundane invisibility negation, let us enumerate some of the classics here.

Bandages over a doorframe, ready action to shoot or flour whatever comes through (countered by wind)
Flour + Ready Actions (they're going to get one good attack before you can get them bleh)
Swinging a length of rope at about waist level and seeing what it hits (can be dodged)
Coat the floor in flour watch for footprints, nail where the footprints are (blocked by wingless flying)
Spray mud (limited range in large rooms)
Light a fire and fill the room with smoke. Everyone has miss chance and you're at less of a disadvantage, some DMs may rule you see the ripples better in the smoke (choking risk) (Though it does negate an invis rogue sneak attack)

The Mentalist

2013-05-07, 06:13 AM

That doesn't actually work, since you'd be targeting the square, not the creature, so the flour pouch would just spill out on the floor, not the creature. That's why it says in the flour pouch description that you'd have to make a ranged touch attack with total concealment (total concealment rolls are made secretly by the GM).

Yes, it does. It's a splash weapon. It targets all within a 5' radius. You can hit the floor of his square and it still hits him as an invisible creature within 5'

as are all other creatures within 5 feet.

This is the salient point.

Even so, there's no way the GM would be justified in setting the DC at anything less than 20 (probably higher depending on how you and your allies set it up).

Dropping prone to avoid it would not be all that difficult.

Maginomicon

2013-05-07, 06:15 AM

No, but you've already used your actions for the round (and several others)So what? Assuming you kept quiet about it, the GM wouldn't have reason to guess what's coming the first time you do it. Even so, each pass afterward you can vary what you do with the ropes during the run action so that falling prone doesn't work (such as by letting one rope drag on the floor or waggling the ropes up and down as you run).

What was that about listen checks? While the invisible foe could conceivably listen in, there's lots of very obvious things you can do to prevent that.

No. Seriously. Every character I have ever had has carried around a bag of flour.And no, seriously, no player I've ever played with has ever had their character carry around a bag of flour. A rope, yes, but never a bag of flour.

And they still suffer miss chance, hitting a falling target you can't see is kind of a pain.Better than no chance, and what are the odds the GM is going to impose a penalty to your allies' attack rolls just because the guy's in the process of falling?

The Mentalist

2013-05-07, 06:20 AM

"Most adventurers" my ass. This is a well-known trick, and since bags of chalk dust weigh so little, there's no reason to carry multiples. Besides, how many invisible foes are you expecting to fight between resupplies? One? Two? Three? Fact is, negating even one invisible threat is well worth carrying a single-use item of negligible cost. If you find yourself in a situation where you're running out of equipment and can still expect to face invisible foes, that's when you make a tactical withdrawal and come back with more.

I once had a 1gp dungeon survival kit in 2nd Edition it weighed like a pound and I always kept three secreted about my person on every character I ever made, I may have to pull it out and revamp it for 3rd and post it on the forums.

Fouredged Sword

2013-05-07, 06:31 AM

Quite simple. Be a fighter. Feel something stab you in the back. Take 1d4+5d6 damage from the sneak attack.

Throw the flour in the direction of the attack.

I call it the fighter detection system. You detect things by letting them stab you.

The warblade has a better detection system. They take the stance that gives them scent, and use that to pinpoint the creature and dust it to allow for melee attacks.

Kazyan

2013-05-07, 07:31 AM

So....no one has mentioned the Hearing the Air stance, or the Clarity of Vision skill trick yet?

Parra

2013-05-07, 07:32 AM

This Scenario is growing increasingly specific.

You need a regular shaped room. No furniture. Two lengths of rope. An invisible opponent who takes no action while you relay the plan to you comrades to run along the room with this rope you just handed them and for everyone else in the room (who somehow avoid the rope) to be ready to shoot where it buckles. This same invisible opponent then also has to stand still, fail a listen check to hear a conversation a few feet away, fail a sense motive check to cop that something is going on and generally fail to do anything.

Berenger

2013-05-07, 07:46 AM

1. Enter room.
2. Start fire.
3. Add sulphur to fire.
4. Leave room & guard doors.

Added benefit: items in the room get rid of lice and bed bugs.

Miranius

2013-05-07, 07:53 AM

There is a tool called the "mister", originally intended to spray poisons. (I think it`s in DotU or Und).
Why not load that up with flour,sticky sap or something similar. Gives you a nice tool for other purposes and would serve nicely for this one.

(note to players with capitally EVIL characters: grind sickstone into powder and spray it around.
from Underdark p. 105: Sickstone glows with a nauseating, not-quite-green,not-quite-silver light that provides illumination to a radius of 40feet.
Any creature within the range of this illumination mustmake a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw each round or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage.
A successful save reduces the Constitution damage to 1 point. Anyone in physical contact with sickstone takes a –4 penalty on this saving throw, and any Constitution damage it takes becomes Constitution drain instead.
Only downside: you leave behind "radioactively contaminated" groud :wink: )

Fouredged Sword

2013-05-07, 07:57 AM

Ok, now I got to make an undead army with sickstone embedded helms.

Mnemnosyne

2013-05-07, 07:59 AM

Bags of flour have no listed weight and cost 1 sp each. At 1st level I typically spend 2gp to buy 20 of them and keep them on my person at all times. At around 3rd to 5th level if I've used a lot of them thus far I might spend 20-50 gp to buy 200 to 500 more, which probably is enough to last my entire adventuring career.

ben-zayb

2013-05-07, 08:13 AM

Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.

Checkmate.

It's just a pain when that very specific, time-consuming (multi-round, multi-action), multiman, place specific, and convoluted plan gets stopped by a free action. TwT

That is, assuming all those previous ASSUMPTIONS work, what with all the "Reflex shouldn't be less than 20" when the "OHMYGODITSSMAGICAL" fireball spell by a generic 16 int Wiz will only require a 16.

EDIT: I suggest changing the title to "Mundane Invisibility Negation in a likely vacant room with two or more participants"

Person_Man

2013-05-07, 08:16 AM

1) Listen check.

2) Area of effect attack (fireball, breath weapon, etc).

3) Profit!

If you're incapable of making an area of effect attack or negating Invisibility (which can be done with various cheap items), then you're probably Tier 4 or lower, and should commit suicide. If that's not an option, then consider Grapple checks instead. You'll miss a couple, but once you succeed, there is no longer a miss chance for you for further Grapple checks, and all of your allies will know where the enemy is located.

Seffbasilisk

2013-05-07, 08:17 AM

Bags of flour. Marbles to slip and show movement. Tripwires set to bells and deadfalls. Mud patches. Sprayer. Chalk dust. Scent. Hearing the air. Gambit.

Of these, one can be pillaged from peasants and rural villages.

Well two, but mud is everywhere. That's how you can tell adventurers aren't kings.

SSGoW

2013-05-07, 09:03 AM

While in melee (ie the enemy is actively fighting) they are making noise. It is a DC 0 listen check to locate which square they are in.

DC 0

DC 0

:D

Invisibility is not as powerful as what people think it is. Heck Invisibility gives a bonus against sight not sound so even in PF it isn't that powerful while in combat. The 50% miss chance is negated easily too.

Outside combat while sneaking/flying is another story....

awa

2013-05-07, 09:06 AM

action economy wise this is terrible.
Are you assuming that the invisible creature is just going to sit there while you do all this wont the invisible creature be busy attacking you?

Keep in mind a run action leaves you flat footed and requires a full rnd action while a trip attempt requires an attack so you can't trip anything doing that. A dm might make a house rule allowing it but logical holding a rope like that is quite awkward so massive penalties are in order and at best you find what square hes in.

if you holding two ropes that means both hands are occupied so your in a bad position defensively.

also how are you holding a rope taut 2 feet and four feet above the ground and running is fast as you possibly can?

This plan is flawed on virtually every level both using game mechanics and real world logic, its more dangerous, it's less effective, it's more complicated, it's more time consuming.

Der_DWSage

2013-05-07, 09:46 AM

I'm gonna side with everyone else on the side of 'needlessly complicated' here. I mean, besides falling prone as a free action and the fact that it's not as difficult to dodge those two ropes as you think, what if the invisible creature is short-like a Halfling? All he has to do is a little limbo action, and suddenly your fancy rope tricks are useless.

What you want is something that's a single, fluid action-and I'm not talking action economy here. Something that will cover the room from left to right-like a bucket of mud that gets thrown. Or a modified 'Create Water' powered spray. Maybe give the Fighter a really -big- bag of flour to throw.

Alternatively, if you're certain they can't fly, instead do something where they can't pass without being seen. Instead of using those ropes and running up, set them up as tripwires. Walk to the 5 foot doorway, and become a human wall. Use your flour packets to cover a section of floor around you.

Remember, the more working parts it has, the more likely it is your plan is going to fall apart at one of those junctions.

ZamielVanWeber

2013-05-07, 09:46 AM

While in melee (ie the enemy is actively fighting) they are making noise. It is a DC 0 listen check to locate which square they are in.

DC 0

DC 0

So melee combatants who spam invis use spring attack so you only have a clue for one part of a round. Casters just use spells without verbal components/silent spells. Done.

SSGoW

2013-05-07, 10:38 AM

So melee combatants who spam invis use spring attack so you only have a clue for one part of a round. Casters just use spells without verbal components/silent spells. Done.

That would work with greater invisibility but with normal invisibility... Well that guy is toast.

Casters? Well Invisibility is not the problem, the caster flying or whatever is more of a problem. Or the caster using the million of better spells to take out the melee combatant (dominate person/monster you then get a new familiar)

Also some of my favorite feats

Pierce Magical Protection
Pierce Magical Concealment
Mage Slayer (no casting defensively)
Blind Fight (need it for the above)

DC 0 listen check for the caster being in melee (has nothing to do with casting spells, this represents hard breathing or moving in your 5 foot square since no one is actually standing still). There are ways to get listen/perception on the fighter's list or enough of a cross class skills to always make a DC 10. Also your caster won't have every spell stilled and silent, but again they have a ton more ways to screw over melee/ranged.

Use the above feats and yeah your spring attacker is not doing so well since the fighter will break the invisibility each round thus the spring attacker will need to put it up again

You can do this with PF barbarian in a way.

ZamielVanWeber

2013-05-07, 10:49 AM

awa

2013-05-07, 10:53 AM

its actual a dc 20 listen check to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature with a listen check not dc 0 which is only to know that an invisible creature is in the area not where it is.

It also would not be unreasonable to declare a pc in the middle of combat distracted jumping the dc up by 5

SSGoW

2013-05-07, 11:19 AM

The assumption here would be some sort of long term invisibility. Otherwise the OP could block the doorways and wait patiently. Also the PILE of feats you listed is useless in this scenario, since you have no clue what square that caster is even in.

Also that DC 0 represents more than hard breathing. The talking DC is 0 and breathing, aside from gasping, is not nearly so loud. (Also the caster could just make a move silently check. A wizard's Dex tends to be higher than a Fighters Wis).

Ok so I'm guessing you never been in a fight or boxing match or kendo match before.... When in combat you do not just breathe normally.

Again as I said, casters have a crazy ton other ways to mess over the fighter in this instance, invisibility isn't as great as what people say it is.

The DC 20 is not in combat though, while in combat

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

DC 0

ZamielVanWeber

2013-05-07, 11:33 AM

Abaddona

2013-05-07, 11:38 AM

Hmmm... if listen check is free action and pin pointing the location of moving creature (in combat) is DC 0, then you just need to ready an action - even if your enemy can move after attacking you, you should still be able to attack him when he is near you. So if I understand correctly - spring attack is not really a problem when your enemy wants to take things personal. Spellcasters may make things ugly (but then again that fireball is not invisible so you should be able to see from which direction spell was casted).

SSGoW

2013-05-07, 11:44 AM

In melee range does not mean in combat. Someone in melee fighting is in combat. Someone you happen to be standing next to is not until you start swinging at them. And you keep assuming that the invisible person will not make any attempt to using Move Silently (which Listen itself says is permissible), since that would jack up the DC massively.

What happened to your original spring attacker?

I've shown proof that invisibility is mundanely defeated by listen check. In combat is DC 0. +
1/10 ft (forgot about that one). Since you want to use casters... I'll be a cleric get listen as a class skill, max out my wis (duh) and go Clericzilla. Move silently won't help since my wis will be higher than your dex. I originally used fighter as a default combatant name, not to make this a caster vs mundane argument.

If you move silently you move half speed or take huge penalties to move silently.

Casters don't need more silently, they have the spell silence. But this isn't a "magic is
Broken" argument now is it.

In combat invisibility is not that great of an ability. Hell get blind sight/sense or whatever from a mundane source.

Miranius

2013-05-07, 11:56 AM

awa

2013-05-07, 12:04 PM

its dc 0 to detect that there is an invisible person dc 20 to pinpoint them

"A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location"

0+20 = 20

you have to read the whole thing

SSGoW

2013-05-07, 12:14 PM

The posted listen check can arguably be taken against an immobile invisible enemy.
As a DM, i`d for example grant the full round action to "whirl" around with a reach weapon like the longspear and listen for dodging enemies in the radius with a reduced DC.

Then I houserule that to continue being invisible you must loudly fart every round or else the spell fails.

*sigh*

Also "in combat" actually means something. It means you rolled initiative and you are fighting/having a conflict and is measured in rounds and turns.

Just because you don't move in one turn doesn't mean you are standing perfectly still. You are dodging stray arrows, multiple attacks, and other stuff. Combat in D&D is simplified to turns but actually a lot more stuff is going on.

***

Edit: I don't need to pin point an invisible creature just locate them. As a cleric I'm sure I have an AoE damage or debuff spell that will mess them up.

Again I don't need to pinpoint to defeate invisibility.

ZamielVanWeber

2013-05-07, 12:35 PM

Also "in combat" actually means something. It means you rolled initiative and you are fighting/having a conflict and is measured in rounds and turns.

ALL DnD is measured in rounds and turns. You just do not see it out of combat. Also, you are saying that, if I decide to randomly roll initiative I automatically shave 20 off of Listen checks to find invisible creatures, because I want to fight them. Aside from it being the illusion wars all over again, that is ludicrous from a logic perspective.

And I am not saying invisibility is god-tier. I have had invisible foes defeated by a gnome's racial dancing lights. You are arguing that invisibility is readily defeated by level one commoners, which it is not (especially since, unless this fight is one on one, that +5 to the DC).

Finally, that DC to pinpoint is 20 (assuming the in combat/no distractions). That 0 is only to know that they are somewhere in detection range. 20 tells you where.

SciChronic

2013-05-07, 01:03 PM

i feel like the OP is disregarding the fact that his opponent has eyes and can in fact move.

that said, it really wouldn't be that hard to dodge 2 ropes, even if it was by going between them. I did similar things in dodgeball back when i was in middle school when multiple people would throw at me at the same time. lean to the side and jump, put spin into to so you land on your feat, essentially doing a corkscrew sideways, i'm not even an athletic person.

flour pouch is superior in wall ways beside the fact that it's a one-use, and its an extremely cheap and easily replaceable one-use. Keep it in a handy haversack, move action to get, standard action to throw = one round. if you're super cheap, keep it in a belt pouch, still one round to use, they don't get to react since its a splash and you only have to target their square.

Rope takes 2-3 rounds minimum, requires communication between team, is completely evident what is coming towards you, and you need a very specific set of circumstances to be able to even use it. also, if they just cut your rope, guess which is more expensive to replace, rope or flour. Then you only have an idea of where he was when he cut your rope, where as flour will tell you where he is for a few rounds since he is currently covered in flour. If he spends his own full-round to remove the flour thats a full round where you can beat him into paste or throw yet another packet of flour.

Menzath

2013-05-07, 01:04 PM

after reading the first 20 posts I just decided to skip the rest and post this.

What DM wouldn't allow a reflex save to go prone to avoid the rope?
And it just isn't very effective as a tactic since you need,
1move action to pull out rope.
1free action to hand it to someone adjacent to you
1 move action from two people to get on opposite sides of a room
1 MORE move action (or if you run a full round action) to both run across the sides of said room.
Total of 3 turns(can be 2 full turns with prep) of 2 people.
So... what invisible creature is going to stand around for that?

where as the flour/chalk dust is
1 move action to draw
1 free action to listen check
1standard action to throw.
Total of 1 turn for 1 person.

and for finding invisible objects.... take 20 on search checks after you clear or when you aren't in any danger/have time.

And the water thing is great since water splashes you can get a huge bonus on your listen check from it, and you know, see their feet.

Der_DWSage

2013-05-07, 01:35 PM

EDIT: By the by, regardless of everything said below, this trick will most certainly ALWAYS work against invisible non-floating objects in the room.

To reflect OP's change in tone...

Er. Nope, still invalid. Still too many things that could invalidate your fancy ropework when you could instead be dusting the room.

1)The object is shorter than two feet.
2)The object is not merely invisible, but intangible. (Ethereal, shadowy, etc.)
3)The object is porous. (Gelatinous cube, rope will go right through.)

And the fact that this is a really, weirdly specific method to find invisible objects in an otherwise empty, square room.

Vizzerdrix

2013-05-07, 01:45 PM

The proper way to use a bag of flour is to throw a tindertwig into it the next round after dispersal.

AWiz_Abroad

2013-05-07, 02:00 PM

Are you trying for a dust explosion? You'd need a LOT more particulates in the air.

But good thought though.

awa

2013-05-07, 02:02 PM

also don't they need to be in a confined space of some sort to concentrate them or something

SciChronic

2013-05-07, 02:11 PM

ALL DnD is measured in rounds and turns. You just do not see it out of combat. Also, you are saying that, if I decide to randomly roll initiative I automatically shave 20 off of Listen checks to find invisible creatures, because I want to fight them. Aside from it being the illusion wars all over again, that is ludicrous from a logic perspective.

And I am not saying invisibility is god-tier. I have had invisible foes defeated by a gnome's racial dancing lights. You are arguing that invisibility is readily defeated by level one commoners, which it is not (especially since, unless this fight is one on one, that +5 to the DC).

Finally, that DC to pinpoint is 20 (assuming the in combat/no distractions). That 0 is only to know that they are somewhere in detection range. 20 tells you where.

As a heads up you guys are all wrong about pinpoint. The DC isnt 20, you have to EXCEED the DC by 20 or more to pinpoint. so the effective Listen DC is Move Silently Check + 1/10ft + 20 + 5(if distracted)

The DC is 0 + Move Silently + 1/10ft + 5(if distracted) just to DETECT an invisible target. meaning you can tell something you can't see is around you, but you don't know which squares

ZamielVanWeber

2013-05-07, 03:20 PM

The default DC is 0 to detect, so 20 to pinpoint. If the target chooses to make a move silently check (which they often, but not always will) you use that INSTEAD of the 0 to detect and 20 on top to pinpoint.

Gavinfoxx

2013-05-07, 03:32 PM

Things which can defeat invisibility:

-Visible Clutter in the areas where characters would walk or fly
-Swarms
-Area of effect spells (fireball and such)
-Area of effect alchemical substances
-Fairy Fire
-Torch Bug Paste
-Scent
-Glitterdust
-Dawnburst
-Invisibility Purge
-See Invisible
-Flour bombs or dust bombs or other such things
-Arcane Sight
-Detect Magic
-Detect Invisibility
-True Seeing
-Blindsight
-Blindsense
-Mindsight
-Lifesense
-Touchsight
-A very high listen score can pinpoint invisible creatures
-Spot can actually be used to see invisible
-There is a skill trick which can help spot see invisible
-Large numbers of enemies with nets
-Any sort of light fog or water or snow or whatever which can show movement in the substance could defeat invisibility.
-Cast light on some glue or tar or something in a method that is throwable as a splash weapon, and throw it: the light will stay in the glue, and it will stick to whatever it hits, even something invisible (this is a jury rigged version of Torch Bug Paste).

A DM can also make being invisible not an automatic win condition for the group, ie, the group has to protect something which is not invisible, or the group is in cramped quarters and invisibility isnt a great asset, things like that.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-05-07, 05:34 PM

I said "run"... as in a run action. That's pretty damn fast.Not really. You also said something about checking for bends in the rope -before- taking the run action, implying two passes through the room. If that's not what you meant you should probably rephrase.

Not when it's not your turn, and even so, it's a DC 32 jump check to jump 4ft straight up without a running start.32 is the DC to jump straight up at a full extension and have your feet clear 4ft. What I'm talking about is simply diving over the rope. Probably something in to the effect of a dc 10 tumble check or more appropriately a dc 10-15ish reflex save.

I covered that in the OP. Since readying an action can include a 5ft step after the sunder attack, you didn't cover it sufficiently.

The thread is about MUNDANE invisibility negation. The very first line of the OP says "if you don't have access to magic"! Besides, a listen check would have to beat DC of the invisible foe's move silently check by 20 to pinpoint it. As others have pointed out, unless the foe actually makes a move silently check that's just a flat dc 20; not a particularly difficult check at around 5th level if it's a class skill.

To whit: ranger 5, 8 ranks in listen, +2 wis (wis 14), +2 aid another from animal companion; a +12 total for a 75% success rate. The +5 for distraction is only appropriate if there is one or more visible foes to distract you.

-------------

Come to think of it, you can do this trick with one person, a length of rope, and a quarterstaff or club by tying the rope to the end of the quarterstaff (or club) and using it to swing the rope out into the room like a whip (admittedly, then it would make sense to allow a reflex save since you only are swinging one rope).

If you're going to be doing it this way, you could probably just tie a weight-knot in the end of the rope or use the rope with the grappling hook on the end (you've got one of those, right?)

awa

2013-05-07, 08:27 PM

the dc to avoid swinging a rope around the room like that would be so low even a drunken commoner should be able to make it more often then not

Der_DWSage

2013-05-07, 09:45 PM

To whit: ranger 5, 8 ranks in listen, +2 wis (wis 14), +2 aid another from animal companion; a +12 total for a 75% success rate. The +5 for distraction is only appropriate if there is one or more visible foes to distract you.

Emphasis mine. Just to play devil's advocate here-I don't think aid another works like that, not for listen checks. Also, your math is off on the percentage. (Of course, that's still a +10 from being mildly competent, so a 55% success rate every round. And even at 1st level, when you'd be the most incompetent, that's a 35% success rate every round. So, 50/50 to 1 in 3 chance-not bad for such impenetrable invisibility, assuming they're moving around.)

But then, if you have an animal companion, why aren't you just telling him 'Sic 'im, boy?' :smalltongue:

EDIT:Wait. The original math was off, so mine was too. Derp. Fixed.

Boci

2013-05-08, 07:28 AM

As others have pointed out, unless the foe actually makes a move silently check that's just a flat dc 20; not a particularly difficult check at around 5th level if it's a class skill.

Wouldn't you have to beat their dexterity check by 20?

Kelb_Panthera

2013-05-08, 03:52 PM

Emphasis mine. Just to play devil's advocate here-I don't think aid another works like that, not for listen checks. Also, your math is off on the percentage. (Of course, that's still a +10 from being mildly competent, so a 55% success rate every round. And even at 1st level, when you'd be the most incompetent, that's a 35% success rate every round. So, 50/50 to 1 in 3 chance-not bad for such impenetrable invisibility, assuming they're moving around.)

But then, if you have an animal companion, why aren't you just telling him 'Sic 'im, boy?' :smalltongue:

EDIT:Wait. The original math was off, so mine was too. Derp. Fixed.

How the heck did I do that? :smallconfused: You're right, of course. That should've been 65% with the aid another. Whether the AC can simply 'sic 'em' would depend on its capabilities. If it's got scent or some other ability that would allow it to bypass the invisibility then having it point out the enemy would definitely be preferable.

@ roci:

only if the invisible foe actually makes the untrained move silently check and takes the associated penalties should it move more than half its speed.

Boci

2013-05-08, 07:11 PM

@ roci:

only if the invisible foe actually makes the untrained move silently check and takes the associated penalties should it move more than half its speed.

Which they have very little reason not to. DM/Player ignorance is generally going to be the only cause. 15ft is generally going to be enough mid-combat, and even if it isn't, 1d20+dex-5 is going to be more than 0 most of the time.

jindra34

2013-05-08, 07:48 PM

Which they have very little reason not to. DM/Player ignorance is generally going to be the only cause. 15ft is generally going to be enough mid-combat, and even if it isn't, 1d20+dex-5 is going to be more than 0 most of the time.

True. Common sense and such would dictate that. But this is DnD 3.5, the designers apparently had issues with logic.

Curmudgeon

2013-05-08, 09:27 PM

Consider this though:
Delay action as-needed so that you both act on the same initiative.
At the same time, you both hold the rope taut and... run to the other end of the room! (creating effectively two fast-moving tripwires)

While several reasonable objections have been raised in response to this "plan", there are some other basic assumptions at odds with the D&D rules.

Unless you're already in combat, there aren't any rounds. You don't have a Delay option until initiative has been rolled.

If you are in combat, Delay just changes your initiative number. It doesn't allow simultaneous actions. D&D remains a turn-based game.
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

ericgrau

2013-05-08, 09:37 PM

The plan in the OP takes too long to set up, most fights will be done by then. Even 1 non-invisible creature will get in the way of the rope too, so it isn't even reliable.

Invisibility rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility
Just make the listen check to pinpoint. It is usually DC 20 when the foe is "in combat or speaking". The DC 20 + move silently check is only when the foe is tip-toeing around. You still have the 50% miss chance but at least you know which square to attack. If a foe attacks you that's also an easy way to find him, unless he has reach or moves afterwards. You don't even need to make a check.

Fitz10019

2013-05-09, 07:22 AM

Those claiming that it's only DC20 to pinpoint are assuming the creature is moving. A DM could jack that DC up if the lurking creature were just standing quietly, observing the party.

The OP's suggestion, while not foolproof, would at least require a move action from the lurker in response, thus enabling a decent shot at the listen check. The lurker might even giggle, which should lower the DC by 5.

I suggest storing the rope in a bag with ground-up chalk, so it leaves a mark on anything it touches.

Adding to my rope collection:
rope-rope (when you just need rope)
knotted rope (easier climbing, but less length)
leafy/mossy rope (disguised as vine, harder to climb)
oil-soaked rope (make a ring of fire, impossible to climb)
chalk-caked rope (marks what it touches, harder to climb)

Boci

2013-05-09, 11:02 AM

Just make the listen check to pinpoint. It is usually DC 20 when the foe is "in combat or speaking".

Unless they only need a standard action to attack/cast a spell, then they have no reason not to move after doing so. Even if they are full attacking, they can still take a 5ft step afterwards.

SciChronic

2013-05-09, 11:21 AM

Unless they only need a standard action to attack/cast a spell, then they have no reason not to move after doing so. Even if they are full attacking, they can still take a 5ft step afterwards.

if they take the 5 ft step, a flour pouch still works, as it has splash.
Also listen checks are free actions so i could still pull out a flour pouch and throw it before they get to move.

HalfQuart

2013-05-09, 11:27 AM

Edit: Missed a few posts in there.

Boci

2013-05-09, 11:31 AM

Also listen checks are free actions so i could still pull out a flour pouch and throw it before they get to move.

Only with a readied action, otherwise they're moving on their turn before you can throw the pouch. Its works, but its limited.

ericgrau

2013-05-09, 03:06 PM

Unless they only need a standard action to attack/cast a spell, then they have no reason not to move after doing so. Even if they are full attacking, they can still take a 5ft step afterwards.
That is when you need to ready an action, yes. Or for melee they often need to blow their move coming to you. Or if they move at full speed then it's still a -5 to their move silently.

It's a narrow range of foes who have move silently as a class skill, attack at range, have a big effect at range, have greater invisibility and aren't extra fragile themselves. Usually one of those is a weakness you can exploit.

Boci

2013-05-09, 03:25 PM

That is when you need to ready an action, yes. Or for melee they often need to blow their move coming to you. Or if they move at full speed then it's still a -5 to their move silently.

It's a narrow range of foes who have move silently as a class skill, attack at range, have a big effect at range, have greater invisibility and aren't extra fragile themselves. Usually one of those is a weakness you can exploit.

But they don't need all of those. A dexterity check can often be enough if the enemy has to beat yours by 20, so they don't need move silent as a class skill. Melee does reduce the problem of finding them, unless of course the creature has reach or is wielding a reach weapon. Even a 10ft reach makes it significantly harder to guess their location.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-05-09, 04:23 PM

if they take the 5 ft step, a flour pouch still works, as it has splash.
Also listen checks are free actions so i could still pull out a flour pouch and throw it before they get to move.
Reactive listen checks are a free action. It's a move action if you're actively listening to try and find something you missed on the reactive check.

But they don't need all of those. A dexterity check can often be enough if the enemy has to beat yours by 20, so they don't need move silent as a class skill. Melee does reduce the problem of finding them, unless of course the creature has reach or is wielding a reach weapon. Even a 10ft reach makes it significantly harder to guess their location.

A larger natural reach or a reach weapon won't save them from the splash of the flour pouch. Both together will though.

Boci

2013-05-09, 04:44 PM

A larger natural reach or a reach weapon won't save them from the splash of the flour pouch. Both together will though.

Or 1 and a 5ft step.

ericgrau

2013-05-09, 05:17 PM

But they don't need all of those. A dexterity check can often be enough if the enemy has to beat yours by 20, so they don't need move silent as a class skill. Melee does reduce the problem of finding them, unless of course the creature has reach or is wielding a reach weapon. Even a 10ft reach makes it significantly harder to guess their location.

The creature is still likely to be either fragile or have a low power range attack. Either way you can ready actions and poke at DC 20 listen.

Reach only prevents the auto-success against melee, it doesn't change the DC from 20. And then you don't need a readied action on the turns it moved towards you.

Getting one of those on the list is not enough. Finding a way around a 2nd one is also not enough. You need to address more than that. The point was that most creatures have one of those problems and dealing with 2 of the problems does not address the whole list. There are still one or more problems remaining.