Variant of Sneak Attack Fighter: Balanced?

[Matticussama]

One of my party members have discussed wanting to play the Thug and Sneak Attack variants of the Fighter. However, he asked if instead of sacrificing every Fighter bonus feat if he could give up only some for partial Sneak Attack progression. He has suggested giving up 1/2 of the Fighter bonus feats for 1/2 of the standard Rogue sneak attack progression.

Given that neither Fighters and Rogues are particularly top tier, I am considering allowing it. However, I wanted feedback from the Playground: do you see any major problems with allowing it?

Edit: Oh, I should mention: I have house-ruled that Fighters get access to maneuvers and stances as a Warblade of their level - 3. This is why the player is even considering going Fighter for multiple levels, versus another better class. Does this change whether or not giving them 1/2 feat and 1/2 sneak attack progression is out of balance?

[Daftendirekt]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's not much different from simply switching between rogue and fighter levels, except he's not getting the extra stuff that rogues get like evasion, uncanny dodge, 8+int skill points...

[Matticussama]

That was pretty much my first thought, which is why I'm leaning towards approving it. The player prefers pure Fighter for d10 and full BAB rather than multiclassing Rogue, which seems a fair trade for the class features he would be missing out on by not multiclassing Rogue for evasion, trapfinding, etc. However, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't ignoring some potentially game-breaking combo that could be used with it. I seriously doubt there is, but it never hurts to ask.


Oh, I should mention: I have house-ruled that Fighters get access to maneuvers and stances as a Warblade of their level - 3. This is why the player is even considering going Fighter for multiple levels, versus another better class. Does this change whether or not giving them 1/2 feat and 1/2 sneak attack progression is out of balance?

[Drelua]

Yeah, that certainly wouldn't be overpowered. I'm not sure what the best way to space them out would be, but I'm sure that won't be too hard to work out.

Now I'm wondering, though; would it even be overpowered to give them a full progression of both?

Edit: That would still be okay with the Warblade stuff added in, but I think in that case a full progression of both would be OP.

[Daftendirekt]

Oh, I should mention: I have house-ruled that Fighters get access to maneuvers and stances as a Warblade of their level - 3.

Huh, that's an interesting idea. I think delayed maneuvers and choosing SA or fighter bonus feats is probably a decent tier 4. Not at all OP.

[eggynack]

I can't really think of too many parties in which a slow progression warblade with fighter feats and sneak attack would be overpowered. However, as is always the case, matters of balance cannot be determined in a vacuum. Therefore the answer to your question is reliant on party composition before anything else. Without any party information though, I'm inclined to give this the pass.

[Elric VIII]

What if you just give him normal fighter feats, the Thug variant, and allow him to choose +1d6SA in place of a Fighter feat whenever he wants? That way he will be getting the same amount of "things" while allowing him to tailor it to his exact desires?

[Larkas]

Just let him select an extra dice of Sneak Attack as a Fighter bonus feat! Done!

EDIT: Eeeep, swordsage'd by, like, 3 hours. Ehm, to keep this reply relevant, I don't see how this could affect balance. The only "broken" thing he can do with that is probably early entry into some martial PrC. Nothing over the top, as far as I can remember.

[Icewraith]

Trade full sneak attack for 4th, 10th, and 16th level fighter feats. There are enough things that negate sneak attack already, and you can't pick up the rogue ACF that fixes this by flanking. To stop dip stupidity you could change those around and include the 1st level feat, say maybe 1st, 8th, 16th level feats.

Also, give everyone 2 or more additional skill points per level. Just cause there's never enough skill points to grab cross-class ranks in spot etc, and I get tired of the rogues being the only people who make spot checks.

[eggynack]

If the party is of a sufficient power level, you could probably pull a straight up fighter rogue gestalt without causing any problems. Like, if there's a wizard in there, the fighter//rogue is probably going to be a drop in the bucket in terms of balance.

[Larkas]

Also, give everyone 2 or more additional skill points per level. Just cause there's never enough skill points to grab cross-class ranks in spot etc, and I get tired of the rogues being the only people who make spot checks.

I sympathize with this. Though I'd only give this boon to non-spellcasters. I'd actually go more in-depth with this if I were to do this, but I'd probably give four more skill points to non-casters and two to half casters (ranger, palading, maybe bard). Are we looking at rangers with 12 skill points/level? Yes. Yes we are. :smallamused: Of course, more thought would have to go towards this, but this would be the basis of it.

[mangosta71]

A character with fighter bonus feats, warblade maneuver progression, and rogue SA progression would be a solid tier 3 if you're trying to figure out where on the power scale it is.

I sympathize with this. Though I'd only give this boon to non-spellcasters. I'd actually go more in-depth with this if I were to do this, but I'd probably give four more skill points to non-casters and two to half casters (ranger, palading, maybe bard). Are we looking at rangers with 12 skill points/level? Yes. Yes we are. :smallamused: Of course, more thought would have to go towards this, but this would be the basis of it.
Do you mean rogues with 12 skill points per level? Because rangers get 6, and 2 for half-caster brings it up to 8.

[Larkas]

Do you mean rogues with 12 skill points per level? Because rangers get 6, and 2 for half-caster brings it up to 8.

Eeeyup. I don't have anything against it a priori. Like I said, this have to be better thought out, see if things get too ridiculous. Still, full casters shouldn't have the buff, and a Fighter with 6 skills/level (and a decent list of class skills) would be very nice.

[Matticussama]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I will probably go with the common suggestion of letting a Fighter choose to trade out any fighter bonus feat for +1d6 sneak attack progression. In the grand scheme of things, it seems a fair trade-off and allows the character to customize as he wants. I assume he plans on using the fighter bonus feats he does get to TWF + Sneak Attack, so this build will let him do it slightly easier than going Rogue.


Also, give everyone 2 or more additional skill points per level. Just cause there's never enough skill points to grab cross-class ranks in spot etc, and I get tired of the rogues being the only people who make spot checks.

To handle the skill problem I houseruled that: (1) all non-caster classes with 2+Int get 4+Int instead, and (2) cross-class skills only cost 1 skillpoint instead of 2, but still are limited to 1/2 ranks of a class skill. This lets people invest in cross-class skills without being ripped off.