Splitting the Party & other questions

[John Joe Johnso]

Hi, I've been DM'ing D&D 3.5 on again off again for about a year. I finally joined a D&D forum and I'd like to get some questions/rulings cleared up. Feel free to answer any or all of the questions or point me in the right direction (book and page number.)

1) Splitting the party. I had a situation where the PCs split up and it completely caught me off guard. Half of the PCs went the wrong way while the other half fought the boss encounter that was designed for the entire party. For an hour, half of the PCs watched in boredom as the rest of the PCs got slaughtered by a vampire. We ended up ditching the campaign after the slaughter.

Since then, I've obviously prepared a variety of challenge ratings in case the PCs decide to split, but what do you do with the other half of the party? Ask them to play video games?

2) Bear's Endurance. I used this once as a PC and we weren't sure if the +2 CON modifier gave you +2 HP per Hit Dice & +2 Fort or simply gave you +2 HP & +2 Fort. We ruled that it only gave you +2 HP & some Fort. Are we mistaken? It seems like a really weak buff compared to say, Aid. <__>

3) Identifying Monsters. I just recently figured out the individual knowledge checks to identify monsters, but I need some help with the individual DC checks. The way I've been doing it so far is a Knowledge (Nature for example) DC10 let's you know the monster's name and type. A DC15, for example, would let you know the monster's main strengths or it's main weaknesses. Any pointers on the DC checks?

4) Flurry of Blows. How the heck does this work when you multiclass?! I've been treating it as "Rapid Shot, but with fists." Exampple: what is the full attack for a level 5 Fighter/level 2 Monk with a Kama? If I had to guess it'd be +4/+4/-1.

Even worse, what is the full attack for a level 5 Fighter/level 2 Monk using Two-Weapon Fighting with two kamas (with TWF feat?) My guess is +2/+2(flurry'd kama)/+2(offhand)/-3

Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

[Xervous]

bears endurance yields +4 con. This increases your fort save by 2 and your HP by 2 * HD, as every +1 of Con contributes 1 hp PER HD.

Its a DC of 10+ a monster's HD to identify the monster as a bare minimum, for every 5 points above this, give the player some more information about the creature.

As for flurry.... it looks like you got it about right

[Deaxsa]

1. yes, that's exactly what you do. maybe break out some uno cards and say "go to that other room and have non-DnD fun"

2. as Xervous said

3. i did not know that, thanks Xervous. got a citation though? (more for my curiosity than anything, i'm gonna use it no matter either way, just want to know if it's RAW). ALSO, as an addition to this question, what happens when you have a progressed monster? like, why would a 5-headed hydra have a DC 15 K. Arcana chek, but a 12-headed hydra have a DC 22 K. Arcana check?

4. let's see.. bab of +6, so normal attack routine would be +6/+1. with FoB, though, would make it +4/+4/-1, and with dual-wielding, it depends how many feats you have. we'll assume you have every last one, and so here's how it looks: +2/+2/-3 for the main hand, +2/-3 for the off-hand(-2 for twf, -2 for flurry) (remember, FoB does not give an extra attack PER WEAPON... just an extra attack. ) (also, you could technically choose whichever hand the flurried attacks are coming from, if you liked, i do not think it specifies that you have to do it with the main had. why this is relevant: different enchantments)

[Snails]

Ultimately the players need to avoid splitting, primarily because it can screw with the fun of all players. It can also be hard on the DM and precipitate both DM and player errors that lead to sudden PC death(s).

You can hint. But they need to take responsibility for being respectful about sharing a precious limited resource -- the DM's time and attention.

[drax75]

Might i add to the splitting the party insight?

If the party chooses to split, thats up to them. I would suggest you keep running your campaign the way you have been running it when it come to encounters. The people playing your game will learn, how bad a tactical mistake they are making by splitting the party in a survival situation (like a dungeon crawl).

That or they will learn to purchase items or plan ahead for making either a retreat or calling for reinforcements. Also keep in mind this

"For an hour, half of the PCs watched in boredom as the rest of the PCs got slaughtered by a vampire"

Why? Why didn't the party fighting him run? if they were trapped in a pit with it, why didn't they scout the pit better? Why didn't the other group make listen checks to go help their friends? Did you not have a mage with the group fighting the vampire? If you did, did they not cast message to call for help from the other group?

To me it seems like a failure on the part of the party not the DM. Sometimes you make poor decisions and you die, thats just how it is. The party just has to learn not to make the same mistakes.

Just my .02 on the situation.

[prufock]

1) Splitting the party. I had a situation where the PCs split up and it completely caught me off guard. Half of the PCs went the wrong way while the other half fought the boss encounter that was designed for the entire party. For an hour, half of the PCs watched in boredom as the rest of the PCs got slaughtered by a vampire. We ended up ditching the campaign after the slaughter.

Since then, I've obviously prepared a variety of challenge ratings in case the PCs decide to split, but what do you do with the other half of the party? Ask them to play video games?

Your mistake was having a "wrong way." What did they do, go to a dead end? What if ALL the PCs decided to go the "wrong way?"

Solutions
1. Have something interesting regardless of which path they take. There is no "wrong way," but some ways are better than others.
2. PCs are given some way to keep in touch with each other. Clapping your hands or hitting the walls with a hammer can have a good echo in a cavern, and keep your other party members informed. You can use morse code or work out your own system. Rings of Communication are quite useful.
3. The villain "escapes" (secret passageway, magic, whatever) only to run into the other half of the party. The original combatants give chase.
4. Just give them something else to do! No one wants to wait around for an hour doing nothing just because of an arbitrary choice of direction. Give them screen time to roleplay, stumble upon a secret door to something, find a hidden box, trip a big trap.


In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Providing the full Knowledge check quote for clarification on q3.

[Amnestic]

1) Splitting the party. I had a situation where the PCs split up and it completely caught me off guard. Half of the PCs went the wrong way while the other half fought the boss encounter that was designed for the entire party. For an hour, half of the PCs watched in boredom as the rest of the PCs got slaughtered by a vampire. We ended up ditching the campaign after the slaughter.

Since then, I've obviously prepared a variety of challenge ratings in case the PCs decide to split, but what do you do with the other half of the party? Ask them to play video games?

Because you're only one person and you're being asked to deal with two groups at the same time, you have a few options.

You could:
Set time limits on how long you're going to deal with each group at a time. Say...15 minutes for one, 15 for another. Tell the other group that they've got downtime to go do 'whatever' but they need to be back, ready and prepped when it's their turn. Maybe have exceptions for combat so as not to break the flow, though since combat can take a while...eh, I dunno. I don't think there's an easy solution.

Convince someone to co-DM for you if/when the party splits. That way you can separate the two groups and have them both act at the same time. Problems arise when the groups are meant to 'meet up' again but they're not aware of it due to being separated, so communication between you and your co-DM is super important. Does also raise the quesiton of what your co-DM does when there isn't a party split (does he play a character? What happens to them when he's DMing? How much do you tell him of your plans if he is a player?)

Tell them never to split the party, ever (not recommended as it kills player agency, especially for sneaky characters/scouts). You could at least recommend against it and after their last experience with splitting the party, I doubt they'll do it again any time soon.




2) Bear's Endurance. I used this once as a PC and we weren't sure if the +2 CON modifier gave you +2 HP per Hit Dice & +2 Fort or simply gave you +2 HP & +2 Fort. We ruled that it only gave you +2 HP & some Fort. Are we mistaken? It seems like a really weak buff compared to say, Aid. <__>

They got +2 HP per Hit Dice and +2 Fort. Sadly, your group ruled wrong. It's cool, it happens. Just correct it and move on.



3) Identifying Monsters. I just recently figured out the individual knowledge checks to identify monsters, but I need some help with the individual DC checks. The way I've been doing it so far is a Knowledge (Nature for example) DC10 let's you know the monster's name and type. A DC15, for example, would let you know the monster's main strengths or it's main weaknesses. Any pointers on the DC checks?

10+HD reveals basic info (name, type, subtype), every +5 over the (10+HD) reveals more (abilities, habits, habitats, personality quirks if any).

[John Joe Johnso]

Thanks for all the replies they were very helpful!



"For an hour, half of the PCs watched in boredom as the rest of the PCs got slaughtered by a vampire"

Why? Why didn't the party fighting him run? if they were trapped in a pit with it, why didn't they scout the pit better? Why didn't the other group make listen checks to go help their friends? Did you not have a mage with the group fighting the vampire? If you did, did they not cast message to call for help from the other group?

They weren't trapped: they simply refused to run. Hell, even the Cleric NPC insisted on fleeing (and if that's not dropping hints then I don't know what is.) I believe the party mage was with the other group. -shrug-



Your mistake was having a "wrong way." What did they do, go to a dead end? What if ALL the PCs decided to go the "wrong way?"

There wasn't really a "wrong way," but one way led to the objective, the vampire, and the other led to a minor encounter. It should have been obvious, but I didn't expect them to split up. :smalleek: Thanks for the ideas by the way.

[drax75]

Thanks for all the replies they were very helpful!


They weren't trapped: they simply refused to run. Hell, even the Cleric NPC insisted on fleeing (and if that's not dropping hints then I don't know what is.) I believe the party mage was with the other group. -shrug-


There wasn't really a "wrong way," but one way led to the objective, the vampire, and the other led to a minor encounter. It should have been obvious, but I didn't expect them to split up. :smalleek: Thanks for the ideas by the way.

Then it sounds like you did all you could, i will bet they learn from this.

[Deox]

but I didn't expect them to split up.

Ahh, there's your problem.

Players really do have a tendency to do what you don't expect. Plan for 10, they'll do the 11th.

[prufock]

They weren't trapped: they simply refused to run. Hell, even the Cleric NPC insisted on fleeing (and if that's not dropping hints then I don't know what is.)
...
There wasn't really a "wrong way," but one way led to the objective, the vampire, and the other led to a minor encounter. It should have been obvious, but I didn't expect them to split up.

I think you did what you could, but why was the other party doing nothing for an hour? Shouldn't they have been dealing with the minor encounter? You could have switched back and forth, having them all roll initiative at the same time, so that you were running 2 encounters at once.

Sometimes players think they're invincible. This would have been a great time for a tactical retreat to regroup. They really should have figured that out.

Also, why did the encounter take so long? Combat in D&D, unless you're dealing with a large number of enemies, rarely take more than 5 rounds or so. Ten rounds is a lot. Was it a matter of both the vamp and the cleric healing?

[Esgath]

Originally Posted by SRD
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

This got changed in Monster Manual V to 10 + Monster's CR. Generally a check of 15 should give all information about type and subtype traits as defined in the MM glossary except on specific monsters. All of this is from MM V, page 7.

[TuggyNE]

This got changed in Monster Manual V to 10 + Monster's CR. Generally a check of 15 should give all information about type and subtype traits as defined in the MM glossary except on specific monsters. All of this is from MM V, page 7.

Does that apply to all monsters, or only MM V monsters? (Strict RAW suggests MM V isn't the primary source for this, but I'm not gonna go all Curmudgeon here. :smalltongue:)

If you want to go deeper down this rabbit hole, I suggest investigating the various problems with Knowledge checks to identify creatures.

[angry_bear]

I won't say never split to the party... Honestly it's lead to some of the funnest encounters for me as a PC, and a GM. Yeah it can be difficult, but if the characters are built well enough to even suggest they want to split the party, they should be able to back it up... If they can't, it's their own fault they're in a fight or flight situation.

However, in a situation like what you described; there are two things you should have done. The first is run both encounters at the same time so that you don't have half the party napping. The second thing is, after the hints failed, and that section of the party still wasn't running, flat out tell them "So guys, I should probably tell you that I made this boss specifically for the entire group to fight. As it is now, there's a good chance you're going to die if you don't try to run." It breaks immersion yeah, but not as badly as when half the group roll up new characters for the following session. PC's can be weird, they can catch the smallest detail in a description, figure out the most complex riddle you can think of; but a lot of the time they'll fail to notice when it's time to run.