Neutral followers of evil deities

[Jon_Dahl]

If I described a character who is not sadistic, brutal or clearly evil, and then I continued describing him to be devoted an evil deity, following its dogma and doctrine, most likely most playgrounders would call this character evil. Right?

The question is, how should one play a neutral character devoted to an evil deity? I think this is an important question because "most" DMs ban evil characters, but few ban evil patron deities.

Think about these combinations:
Chaotic Evil god, bad to the bone, such as Erythnul. The PC is a CN cleric of Erythnul.
Lawful Evil god, tyrannical sadist, such as Hextor. The PC is a LN cleric of Hextor.

[John Joe Johnso]

A half-orc Barbarian might revere Gruumsh, but he isn't necessarily hellbent on killing the party's Elf Wizard because of their religion (though he still might be suspicious of the Elf to say the least.)

I dunno about Clerics. A Cleric of Gruumsh (evil or non-evil) would most likely have an agenda for advancing Gruumsh's own agenda... since that's kinda what clerics do. I find it hard to believe that a Cleric of Gruumsh and any Elf type to ever get along in a party.

[Iktus]

The easiest way to go is, of course, to devote your character only to one aspect of the deitie's portfolio. For example, a cleric of calistria could be a CG prostitute, devoting herself entirely to the ''lust'' part of calistria's portfolio, while another one could be a CE avenger with an extremely short temper, and devote herself to the ''vengeance'' part of calistria's portfolio.
A cleric of erythnul could be chaotic neutral and worship destruction as a way of attaining true freedom and thus, chaos: he could strongly oppose tyranny, seeking to destroy the shackles of enslavement everywhere he comes across them, be it under the regime of a LE tyrant or the oppressiveness of a bureaucratic LG one
This cleric is still true to erythnul, he simply sees his god differently as another, more evil-inclined cleric for whom destruction is embodied solely by slaughter.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Chaotic Evil god, bad to the bone, such as Erythnul. The PC is a CN cleric of Erythnul.

Okay, you're probably not going to get a neutral cleric of Erythnul or the like, because Erythnul is a mass-murdering nutjob with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. There's no Orthodox Church of the Sacred Slaughter that everyone goes to on Pelorsday, just a bunch of crazy killers that worship a god that is also a crazy killer.


Lawful Evil god, tyrannical sadist, such as Hextor. The PC is a LN cleric of Hextor.

This though, is pretty believable. You could have a neutral cleric that grew up in the Great Empire where the state religion is the church of Hextor. He's worshipped Hextor all his life, doesn't really see what's wrong with that, and has been sheltered from the bloodier parts of Hextor's worship.

A good example of this is the Blood of Vol from Eberron, which is a LE religion that managed to go "mainstream". They have plenty of neutral worshippers and even some good ones. Their ultimate aims are sinister, because of course they are, but most people see them as relatively benign.

[Telonius]

Here's a possibility: the character is neutral, but sees a lot of the deity's work in the world. They worship the evil deity to ask to refrain from eviscerating themselves and their family.

[Failed Phantasm]

"The Dark Churches" on page 27 of Complete Champion briefly covers the topic of non-evil clerics of evil deities. And it does specifically call out Erynthul as "having the fewest non-evil members of all the dark faiths".

[Duke of Urrel]

What Iktus wrote makes a lot of sense. I would add, in regard to Gruumsh in particular, that since he is the patron deity of orc-kind, many characters who are at least part orkish may worship Gruumsh for that reason alone, even if they are not Evil themselves.

That having been said, I think there's a problem, not from the player's point of view, but from the deity's point of view, when a morally Neutral character worships an Evil deity, particularly as a religiously devoted character, such as a cleric. It is easy to understand how a Good deity tolerates morally Neutral worshipers; tolerance and even generous indulgence are a part of Goodness. And it's not too hard to understand how a morally Neutral deity tolerates both Good and Evil worshipers; either they assume that the Law-Chaos axis is more important than the Good-Evil one, or they consider the acceptance of both Good and Evil worshipers as part of a balancing act that ultimately favors their own "middle way."

Neither one of these arguments applies to Evil deities. Tolerance and generosity are not features of an Evil personality, and from the standpoint of Evil, it's not advantageous to dilute one's pool of steadfastly Evil worshipers with morally Neutral ones who are less reliably devoted to Evil. So I have to believe that when Evil deities accept morally Neutral worshipers – which I'm sure they readily do – their goal is always, and I do mean always, to corrupt these worshipers and to turn them toward Evil, just as it is the ultimate aim of Good deities to turn their morally Neutral worshipers toward Goodness. The only difference would be that Evil deities pursue this goal with less patience, less tolerance, and absolutely zero forgiveness for inexcusably Good actions.

So the more a morally Neutral worshiper of an Evil deity grows in experience and power, the less I would expect this Evil deity to look indulgently upon the worshiper's failure to be seriously Evil, particularly if the worshiper is a cleric.

[CyberThread]

Okay lets make a list!!1


Erythnul god of hate, envy, malice, panic, ugliness, and slaughter.

CN Cleric of the disfigured, you have no good or bad, just merely what may be good for you at the moment, but you have no real evil tendacies. And it is a very juicy storyline.

Vecna Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue

Plenty of stuff you can do with that being true neutral , and stuff.


Gruumsh Orcs, conquest, strength, survival, territory

Some things a cleric of CN can do here, most of them being outcast or surviving in some sort of rough wildland.


Nerull Death, Darkness, Murder, the Underworld



Those don't have to be bad things, could be somber things, that are more emo or at least honored, instead of sought after for a true neutral character.

Hextor War, Discord, Massacres, Conflict, Fitness , Tyranny

lawful neutral cleric, that is your worlds richard simmons

[Zubrowka74]

In the Forgotten Realms, with the way followers fuel the god's power, an Evil deity can certainly let neutral creature worship an aspect of them because it strengthen them.

[Lvl45DM!]

I was writing a story where the BBEG was a follower of Erythnul. He genuinely believe that love was a lie to keep the masses in line, and that the next best thing to love was hate, a step up from apathy. He also had the Nordic idea that dying in battle was the best way to die, so his mass murder was geared towards giving people the best possible death. So he never murdered anyone without a weapon in their hand, who wasn't facing him. But he did walk into City Watch headquarters and kill a bunch of novices.
Not saying he wasn't evil, but thats one idea for Erythnul to have a lighter side.

[hamishspence]

Vecna Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue

Plenty of stuff you can do with that being true neutral , and stuff.
...
Nerull Death, Darkness, Murder, the Underworld

Those don't have to be bad things, could be somber things, that are more emo or at least honored, instead of sought after for a true neutral character.


Problem in these two cases, is that clerics, at least, may not be True Neutral unless their deity is True Neutral.

[137beth]

In Eberron, you can be a lawful good follower of a chaotic evil deity...

[hamishspence]

Same applies in any setting- it's being a cleric of an alignment radically opposed to that of the cleric's deity, that's restricted (except in Eberron).

In Eberron the phrasing is "A cleric's alignment need not remain within one step of that of the cleric's deity"- with the implication, that the usual rules apply at the start of the cleric's career.

[Duke of Urrel]

In the Forgotten Realms, with the way followers fuel the god's power, an Evil deity can certainly let neutral creature worship an aspect of them because it strengthen them.

This is indeed a benefit that Evil deities may draw from non-Evil worshipers, and it may help to lessen the conflict that I described in my last posting. Perhaps Evil deities are strongly motivated to tolerate non-Evil worshipers, because having more worshipers, even non-Evil ones, gives Evil deities more power to pursue their own Evil interests, for example more power to win victories in the ongoing wars they wage against their various immortal rivals.

But I think a much more interesting possibility is this: That the devotion given by non-Evil characters to Evil deities empowers the latter to intervene more directly in the affairs of the Material Plane itself. Should an Evil deity be happy that non-Evil worshipers use the deity's divine powers for their own purposes on the Material Plane without some compensatory benefit that enables the deity to advance the cause of Evil on this most central of battlefields? I should think not! And this "benefit" for Evil deities should eventually manifest itself in the form of unpleasant consequences for the mortal natives of the Material Plane, if not specifically for the Evil deity's own worshipers, whom the deity will spare – but for purely selfish and strategic reasons, or course.

Again, I'm not talking about consequences that would prohibit morally Neutral characters from worshiping Evil deities. I'm talking about consequences that would make clear what harm (mostly to innocent bystanders) you must accept as part of the bargain when you give power to an Evil deity in exchange for your own private benefit. I'm talking about consequences that would make for moral conflict, difficult dealmaking, and above all interesting and challenging adventures.

[Arbane]

Problem in these two cases, is that clerics, at least, may not be True Neutral unless their deity is True Neutral.

A cleric can be NN if the deity is Neutral-Something, right?

[Duke of Urrel]

A cleric can be NN if the deity is Neutral-Something, right?

I believe you are correct.

The rule is: "A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral." I believe this is just a restatement of the general rule that as a cleric, your alignment cannot differ from the alignment of your deity by more than one step. The nine alignments are arranged in such a way that it is always two steps from pure Neutrality to a composite non-Neutral alignment (LG, LE, CE, or CG), but only one step from pure Neutrality to a composite Neutral alignment (NG, LN, NE, or CN). The aforementioned rule is intended to underscore this point, I think.

[Gnaeus]

In my last campaign I played a CN cleric of a CE homebrew god.

He had been raised as an orphan by the church, and taught that his god had been wronged at the beginning of time by the good gods and only sought his just return to the world.

Philosophically, the character witnessed the more evil actions of his co-religionists, and attempted to guide them away from this direction. He followed the chaos portion of his god's alignment more strongly than the evil portion, and sounded like some kind of cross between a hippie, an anarchist, and something from a self help-book. "If we only bring down the state and its oppressive rules and laws, then everyone could achieve their maximum state of self-empowerment and achieve their full potential. Yes, some things might die or be hurt in the process, but the state of unlimited freedom will ultimately be the most beneficial for society as a whole. All we have to do is break the shackles of the (LG) government, and a new utopia will emerge from the fires." He then formed a splinter sect of his own religion with a predominantly neutral slant.

[Fyermind]

I do this frequently. I play darker character a lot. From the perspective of the deity, they are using a neutral character to advance their schemes. Hopefully they can tempt it into evil to take it's soul. Even if they don't, it is doing things that advance their causes. All publicity is good publicity and all.

[Devils_Advocate]

A cleric can be NN if the deity is Neutral-Something, right?
Nope! You can see this in books that explicitly list the allowable alignments for deities' Clerics, like Deities & Demigods.

They really should have named one of the alignment components "balanced" or something instead of calling two of them "neutral".

[Steward]

I like the idea of a neutral character paying homage to an evil deity as a way of appeasing it and preventing it from harming him or his community. In fact, that's probably the case in a lot of pantheon-based faiths that contain evil deities. You, neutral-aligned peasant, worship all of the gods in the pantheon. You might have more affection for the gods of the harvest, for instance, but you will pay homage to the grim goddess of death and disease because you don't want to tick her off.

[Duke of Urrel]

They really should have named one of the alignment components "balanced" or something instead of calling two of them "neutral".

In my Manual of the Planes, version 3.0, the Neutrality between Good and Evil is called morally Neutral, whereas the Neutrality between Law and Chaos is called ethically Neutral. I think that's a nifty solution, though I'm not sure that it was carried forward into the terminology of version 3.5. In all my previous postings on this thread, when I refer to "moral Neutrality," I mean the horizontal Neutrality between Good and Evil.

We shall have to agree to disagree on whether gods who are only partly Neutral themselves tolerate purely Neutral worshipers. I think it makes no sense at all that they should reject them. After all, if Lawful-Good deities can accept Lawful-Neutral clerics and Chaotic-Good deities can accept Chaotic-Neutral ones, why can't Neutral-Good deities accept purely Neutral clerics? A similar argument can be made from each of the other three directions on the alignment wheel. Since quite a lot of humans are purely Neutral, it would be impractical for gods who are at least partly Neutral themselves to turn up their noses at them.

[Duke of Urrel]

I like the idea of a neutral character paying homage to an evil deity as a way of appeasing it and preventing it from harming him or his community. In fact, that's probably the case in a lot of pantheon-based faiths that contain evil deities. You, neutral-aligned peasant, worship all of the gods in the pantheon. You might have more affection for the gods of the harvest, for instance, but you will pay homage to the grim goddess of death and disease because you don't want to tick her off.

I have no doubt that in any human community of mixed alignments, many people, particularly morally and ethically Neutral ones, behave exactly as you describe. But it is one thing to pray to an Evil deity so that it will leave you alone, and quite another to pray to an Evil deity so that it will grant you the power to cast divine spells. In the former case, you don't actually approve of what a deity of death does when it loses its temper, but in the latter case, you really have to feel that the power to cause death is kind of cool, or at least practical, and you have to want some of that power for yourself.

So it seems implausible to me that a cleric of Nerull, say, would worship him merely in order to avert violent or otherwise premature death from his own community. I think this cleric would be much more eager to cause death to befall some other community (or some enemy or rival in particular). And that is the kind of servant that Nerull himself would prefer, I think.

[Sylthia]

From an RP perspective, maybe they were a young priest from a small villiage who only knew about that particular god. They could devote themselves to a particular aspect of the god as mentioned before. Many of the evil gods have quite a few domains.

[Slipperychicken]

"The almighty Father works in mysterious ways. Mortals like us could never comprehend His divine wisdom."

=

"My deity does whatever the f*** he wants, don't question it."

[Steward]

I have no doubt that in any human community of mixed alignments, many people, particularly morally and ethically Neutral ones, behave exactly as you describe. But it is one thing to pray to an Evil deity so that it will leave you alone, and quite another to pray to an Evil deity so that it will grant you the power to cast divine spells. In the former case, you don't actually approve of what a deity of death does when it loses its temper, but in the latter case, you really have to feel that the power to cause death is kind of cool, or at least practical, and you have to want some of that power for yourself.

So it seems implausible to me that a cleric of Nerull, say, would worship him merely in order to avert violent or otherwise premature death from his own community. I think this cleric would be much more eager to cause death to befall some other community (or some enemy or rival in particular). And that is the kind of servant that Nerull himself would prefer, I think.

You make a great point. I was thinking more about generic followers than clerics per se when I said that. I agree, there's definitely less passivity involved in being a cleric or other divine spellcaster in service to a deity, especially if you have the deity's domains that relate directly to things like Evil, Murder, Corruption, etc.

[Bakeru]

Duke of Urrel, you seem very fixated on the point that every evil god needs to have "Evil for evil's sake" at least as part of his agenda. I'm not sure if that's even true.

I mean, sure, they have it as one of their domains, but it's just a thing they do, not a goal in itself, unless it's also part of their portfolio.
Gruumsh, for example, probably doesn't care if you're chaotic neutral. He doesn't care about evil itself, it just happens that his "take everything you want, crush every opposition and destroy the weak"-stance on politics make him evil, and is hard for others to follow without ending at the south end of the alignment scale. But as long as you're crushing your opposition (and are an orc), he'll congratulate you on a job well done. If you happen to be constantly attacked by enemies you can crush without mercy, then you don't need to be evil to get his approval, though helping others would probably get you a lower mark.
Or take Vecna: A true neutral spymaster set on learning every secret there is to know, without making them public, should have no trouble with worshipping Vecna. He's dealing in secrets, as is Vecna. He doesn't have to eat babies, even though Vecna wouldn't mind if he did.

[awa]

I think that's a good point particularly in regards to racial deities. I agree some people are putting to much emphasis on the evil and forgetting evil is usually the means not the end so corruption rarely benefits the deity unless it in some way improves the effectiveness of the cleric in question, and having a slightly less effective cleric is better then having no cleric at all.

take hextor he lawful evil and tyranny well you could have a guy who feels sure its sad that all those innocent people had to die to preserve the state but could you imagine what would happen with out a strong central authority it would be far worse. I might not like it but i will fight anyone who tries to bring it down because all the alternatives are worse.

are cleric is not doing evil himself he feels bad about the evil other people do but at the end of the day he will do his job and protect the evil overlord because he believe stability will grant the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

[Joe the Rat]

Funny, my DM and I were discussing negative-channeling Neutral clerics, and Evil gods were mentioned. I may see if he'd allow it if my goody-goody cleric bites it.

Regarding Neutral-Neutral Clerics:
A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.
This is called out after the whole one-step issue was mentioned, along with other exceptions (such as LN/LG only St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel Up His- er, moving on). Part of the issue is that one interpretation of Neutral is that it can border on "noncommittal." It is difficult to be an apathetic zealot. A True Neutral deity expects the other side of the coin: an ardent supporter of Balance. The Cleric restriction also contrasts with Druid requirements, who must be at least partially Neutral. (History lesson: these are both relaxations of the older editions, where clerics had to keep their deity's alignment, and druids had to be True Neutral)

So yeah, no True Neutral Clerics of Hades or such... as written. This is one I'd discuss with your DM if you have a good story for it. If you are the DM, roll with it. Everyone else can worship whomever the heck they like (within reason...).

[Zubrowka74]

It is difficult to be an apathetic zealot.

That'it : if I ever start a band, I'm going to name it "The Apathetic Zealots"

[Slipperychicken]

It is difficult to be an apathetic zealot.

Often, Neutral characters will strive for balance. Basically, they don't let any one alignment axis get out of control. If there's too much Evil, you help Good out. If there's too much Goodness in the universe, you join Team Evil for a bit, and so on. The idea being that cosmic balance is somehow necessary (maybe something spooky happens when it gets too far out-of-balance?).

[Joe the Rat]

Often, Neutral characters will strive for balance. Basically, they don't let any one alignment axis get out of control. If there's too much Evil, you help Good out. If there's too much Goodness in the universe, you join Team Evil for a bit, and so on.

They can strive for balance, which would be fitting (if not essential) for a TN cleric. I suspect the idea is that a Deity of Balance would be most amenable to their clerics acting this way. Otherwise they might object to the cleric actively thwarting his own deity's good/evil/lawful/chaotic interests for the sake of Balance. For other classes it would rather depend on how philosophical the character, player, or campaign.


The idea being that cosmic balance is somehow necessary (maybe something spooky happens when it gets too far out-of-balance?).The whole darn thing tips over and dumps reality into the Outer Realms? We make too much noise and Azathoth wakes up, negating existence? The axle snaps and everything stops, releasing us from the cycle of pain and reincarnation and allowing souls to leave the Outer Planes and achieve Nirvana? It becomes impossible to recenter, meaning the cosmos will never come to rest and allow souls to achieve Nirvana?

You could get some pretty epic storylines out of an Actively Neutral campaign.

[Slipperychicken]

They can strive for balance, which would be fitting (if not essential) for a TN cleric. I suspect the idea is that a Deity of Balance would be most amenable to their clerics acting this way. Otherwise they might object to the cleric actively thwarting his own deity's good/evil/lawful/chaotic interests for the sake of Balance. For other classes it would rather depend on how philosophical the character, player, or campaign.

It could be a sort of operation where the deity or his high Clerics sense whether the alignment axes are tilting too much in any one direction, then has his clergy work to negate it by pushing in the opposite direction to realign it (much like one re-allocates weight on a moving vessel to keep it from falling over). There might be a change in stance every aeon or so, since these things tend to move rather slowly. When they need Good and Law, the deity pushes "balance and tranquility", when they need Chaos, they push freedom more, when they need Evil, they push harshness and demand sacrifice.

[Duke of Urrel]

Duke of Urrel, you seem very fixated on the point that every evil god needs to have "Evil for evil's sake" at least as part of his agenda. I'm not sure if that's even true.

To explain where I'm coming from, let me confess first that I was inspired by a quotation that KillianHawkeye, a frequent commenter in the Playground, has often used as signature:

'Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.'

Original credit for that pithy statement comes from a commenter named Krellen.

We excuse a lot of questionable behavior on the part of morally Neutral characters – including, in some cases, the worship of Evil deities – and that's fine with me. But if morally Neutral behavior is as bad as this, then morally Evil behavior must be significantly worse. To my mind, this goes double for morally Evil clerics, triple for morally Evil Outsiders, and quadruple for morally Evil deities. You don't become a major player in a place like Hades or the Abyss without being seriously Evil.

[Bakeru]

I wouldn't dream of calling Gruumsh, Vecna or any of the other evil gods "nice guys". It's just that, while they definitely are looking out for number one while crushing number two, three, four as well as everyone else they can get their hands on without hindering their own ascent to even more power, they don't necessarily care if others do it the same way.

I'm sure Gruumsh would like it if all his orcs could wear fine leather armour made from flayed elf babies. But if his chaotic neutral warlord decides to only crush those who actually fight back, while leaving those who don't resist alive (and dirt poor, because he took all their treasure. Still, they're elves, they'll find something to eat)? Gets a passing grade.

Vecna would like it if his followers would ensure secrecy not only by not talking, but also by killing everyone else who might know or find out. But if all they do is keep silent about what they learn, and maybe burn the books after memorising them so no one else can learn the secrets? Still a passing grade.

As long as their followers are useful, that's enough. That Gruumsh-worshipping warlord is still weakening Gruumshs enemies, that Vecna cultist is still securing secrets for the cult. I don't think their gods have an active "corrupt our followers"-agenda.


That doesn't mean there isn't any corruption. It just isn't active.
If you're dealing with Gruumsh, there will be the constant reminder around that, hey, Gruumsh likes it if you slaughter elves. Maybe he'll give you even more luck if, instead of letting those who don't resist alive, you start only sparing those who don't run? It's their fault for not running, after all. You didn't even sneak up on them, they saw you coming. And those to sick to run? They're weak, anyway, they just hinder everyone else. And maybe pursuing those who run just a little...
Ten years later, his armies wear armour made from flayed elf babies. Gruumsh doesn't make you do this... but if you decide to be a bit more proactive, more power to you. He likes guys like that, they remind him of himself. But it's all your choice, and all your fault.

At least, that's the interpretation I would prefer. A god doesn't say "be like me in every aspect", it's just that it's far easier to get ahead in his church if you emulate him.

[russdm]

You are wrong. Followers are not the same as clerics. Followers (Non-clerics) can be whatever the heck they want, like a LG follower of Hextor. Clerics are more supposed to emulate their deity or follow their deity's code. Clerics receive power from their god to go out and serve them. They are expected to increase the god's (goddess's) power in the world/material plane. Thats why clerics even get power, frankly.

Evil deities are going to be less likely to allow continuing neutral clerics that only accomplish some of their god's desires. As a cleric, by rules as written, you are expected to further your god's goals because he can't do so in the material plane. So serving a god like Hextor means engaging in Trynny or helping spread it around. You can follow parts of the credo, but Hextor is going to start wondering why you are half-committed to him. You are not following the whole deal, and that upsets/annoys uncle Hextor who expects his regular clerics to follow suit.

If you follow Gruumsh and spare elves, Gruumsh will get angry with you. He can/could accept the whole "Those too weak to possess things, don't get to keep them" bit, but he expects his clerics to kill elves and take things by killing those who have it. After all, Gruumsh is constantly evaluating you in terms of whether he should let you remain a cleric of his.

Clerics function differently from just worshippers or followers. They are receiving a portion of their god's power to use in the world. So they are expected to live up to the god's demands.

[awa]

gods arnt stupid getting some of your goals foiled is better then getting none of your goals foiled a cleric only loses his powers if he

"Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description). "

making orcs stronger and killing elves (but not all the elves) is not a gross violation of a code of conduct.

clerics are held to a much tighter standard then paladins

grumnish knows that if he withdraws his favor from mr not quite murderous enough he loses a powerful warrior to know benefit having a cleric costs him nothing unless that cleric is opposing him or his other clerics.

[Bakeru]

You are wrong. Followers are not the same as clerics.Just in case that's referring to me, since it's right after my post without a quote and referring to Gruumsh:
In none of my posts do I make any reference to clerics, only to followers (the closest thing to a cleric would probably be the "vecna cultist", but cultists aren't clergy).

[hamishspence]

But if morally Neutral behavior is as bad as this, then morally Evil behavior must be significantly worse. To my mind, this goes double for morally Evil clerics, triple for morally Evil Outsiders, and quadruple for morally Evil deities. You don't become a major player in a place like Hades or the Abyss without being seriously Evil.

Deities can change alignment over time. In fact, sometimes a deity may be being competed over, by more powerful deities.

An "only just evil" deity is not all that implausible.

[awa]

particularly for gods whos focus is on other things.

I suspect most racial gods are more intrested in the dominace of their race then how they get there. so they may be evil but it's not evil for the sake of evil like a demon but evil becuase they belive that their evil acts are the most effective means of getting what they want

[Jon_Dahl]

Let's try to simplify this.


People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

A neutral cleric of an evil god could have any motives. The cleric could just want to be on the winning side, or maybe he/she admires evil, or simply likes evil more than good, or maybe perhaps think he/she is purely evil, even though it's not true.

As long as the cleric has compulsions against killing, maiming and torturing the innocent, he/she is neutral. If the god asks for 10 virgins to be sacrificed, the cleric would not sacrifice 11, and he/she would try at least the minimum effort to lessen their pain and horror. Afterwards he would not feel happy or proud about he/she has done.

[hamishspence]

That seems to me overly generous. Evil characters can have compunctions- the point is that, regardless of those, they still do Evil deeds.

Champions of Ruin goes into more detail on this- but a character who murders, even if it's only on the orders of their deity, is likely to become Evil fairly quickly, since Murder is an extremely corrupt act according to FC2.

A neutral character must have those compunctions- but having them doesn't make the character Neutral.

In the same way, a Good character must be altruistic- but altruism doesn't make a character Good- not if they do a lot of Evil as well.

[awa]

Ive seen it both ways ive seen it said that a soldier who obeys any order with out question is lawful neutral and ive also seen statements that that type of person would be lawful evil.

looking at lawful neutral outsiders it seems they at least imply as long as you kill with out malice it's okay.

[Duke of Urrel]

With apologies to everyone, but especially to Arbane, I am coming around to accept the rule that purely Neutral clerics are acceptable only to purely Neutral deities. This means I am coming around to accept Joe the Rat's claim that Neutral-Evil deities will reject Neutral-Neutral clerics.

But there's still the question of Lawful-Neutral clerics who may choose to worship Lawful-Evil deities and Chaotic-Neutral clerics who may choose to worship Chaotic-Evil ones. I can more easily imagine the latter relationship working out than the former, because Chaotic deities are less concerned with conformity generally. The example of Tiamat, a Lawful-Evil deity who is specifically described as rejecting Lawful-Neutral clerics, and of St. Cuthbert, a Lawful-Neutral deity whose tolerance extends only toward Goodness and not toward Evil, both demonstrate a Lawful tendency toward reduced tolerance that I do not find on the Chaotic side of the great wheel. (Of course, I'll yield to anyone who can quote Deities & Demigods to the contrary.)

I still believe you're asking for trouble if you're Chaotic-Neutral and you choose to worship somebody like Erythnul. But perhaps you can manage if Erythnul's slaughter quota is unspecific enough that you can manage to kill only enemies of yours and not innocent creatures. Still, avoiding Evil while you keep Erythnul happy with lots of bloodshed may become increasingly difficult for you, if only because it will increasingly require something that Chaotic-Neutral folk don't much enjoy, namely planning.

[awa]

i believe someone mentioned that Erythnul had an unusually small number of non evil clerics

[Slipperychicken]

But there's still the question of Lawful-Neutral clerics who may choose to worship Lawful-Evil deities and Chaotic-Neutral clerics who may choose to worship Chaotic-Evil ones. I can more easily imagine the latter relationship working out than the former, because Chaotic deities are less concerned with conformity generally. The example of Tiamat, a Lawful-Evil deity who is specifically described as rejecting Lawful-Neutral clerics, and of St. Cuthbert, a Lawful-Neutral deity whose tolerance extends only toward Goodness and not toward Evil, both demonstrate a Lawful tendency toward reduced tolerance that I do not find on the Chaotic side of the great wheel. (Of course, I'll yield to anyone who can quote Deities & Demigods to the contrary.)


Cuthbert is devoted to Law, but only very slightly favors Good over Evil (at least in what I read). His real enemy is Chaos.

A Lawful Neutral cleric could simply be following orders and does the absolute minimum of Evil required to keep getting his spells, but then tries to undo the Evilness with whatever good acts his deity will tolerate.

[Lord Vukodlak]

For my own campaign setting the God of Tyranny Hiraxis Blackhand tries to publicize Tyranny as a 'good' thing. The world is a place of chaos, disorder and suffering that only a tight grip can bring security and stability to the land. His power bases are often in places that had a history of civil war and political instability.

Among commoners he'll even have good aligned worshipers because they are devout in their belief that he's brought order and security to their home. While he certainly doesn't have good aligned clerics he does boast Lawful Neutral clerics but they aren't asked to do all the same tasks as a Lawful Evil Cleric.

His church requires Lawful Neutral Clerics to be a softer front for the public and whose loyalty would primarily be to the church and not there own position in the church.(a trait that would be common among the lawful evil clerics).

The thing to remember about worshipers vs clerics is. A Worshiper can be a zealot for his faith but be completely ignorant over what his god actually teaches. You'd expect a Cleric to have a bit more insider knowledge to the workings of the church. Worshipers can and often are sheep the Clerics are the shepherds.


Neither one of these arguments applies to Evil deities. Tolerance and generosity are not features of an Evil personality, and from the standpoint of Evil, it's not advantageous to dilute one's pool of steadfastly Evil worshipers with morally Neutral ones who are less reliably devoted to Evil.

I'd argue the opposite the primary concern of an evil deity is going to be its power and influence being to uptight about worshipers is going to greatly reduce that potential power and influence.


So yeah, no True Neutral Clerics of Hades or such... as written. This is one I'd discuss with your DM if you have a good story for it. If you are the DM, roll with it. Everyone else can worship whomever the heck they like (within reason...).
I don't have Deities and Demi-Gods on hand at the moment but I could have sworn Hades was listed as Neutral Evil.

[Joe the Rat]

The other side of the LN Cleric of a LE (Tyranny) God is the focus on the shared Lawful aspect. Tyranny can mean (excessively) strong rulers. In a world of uncertainty and foul magics and nasty chaotic beasties and murderhoboes of the blood cult of Eckespi, having the stability and protection of a strong, regimented society doesn't sound too bad. The LN Cleric represents that stability - the rule of law and need of order. He may not indulge in the abuses of power to the extent of his LE (and NE) brethren do.


I don't have Deities and Demi-Gods on hand at the moment but I could have sworn Hades was listed as Neutral Evil. If he isn't, he really ought to do something about the Plane with which he shares a name.

[DeltaEmil]

Disneyfication made Hades a bad guy like the Satan, and it seems that Deities and Demigods 3rd edition also paints Hades as a bad guy.

[Duke of Urrel]

I don't have Deities and Demi-Gods on hand at the moment but I could have sworn Hades was listed as Neutral Evil.

I think Joe the Rat agrees with you, and that was his point: There aren't any Neutral-Neutral clerics of Hades, precisely because Hades is Neutral-Evil and rejects Neutral-Neutral clerics (as all deities do, as a general rule, unless they themselves are Neutral-Neutral).

I think your Hiraxis Blackhand is an excellent example of what we call "repressive tolerance." Thanks for that!

But of course, even this tolerance should have limits. A Lawful-Neutral cleric of Hiraxis who advanced far enough to become a rival of his Lawful-Evil colleagues, and who developed an unhealthy interest in social justice, would find soon himself in violation of Hiraxis's Law, I should think.

Similarly, we can imagine how the tolerance of a Chaotic-Evil deity, such as Gruumsh, would observe certain limits. Far from being detail-obsessed, Gruumsh might tolerate a Chaotic-Neutral cleric for years without caring much about how Evil he was. After all, the cleric may be part orkish, and for Gruumsh, orkiness is just too cute for him not to be a little indulgent. He might start paying serious attention only when this cleric became famous and powerful. But then, if Gruumsh discovered that this cleric had been hanging around with elves, even calling some of them his friends and adventuring together with them as allies, the orc god might suddenly feel betrayed, lose his temper, and revoke the cleric's class features then and there, with no warning at all. For a Chaotic-Neutral ex-cleric of Gruumsh, I imagine it would be quite challenging (though not quite impossible) to track down another Chaotic-Neutral cleric of Gruumsh able to cast the Atonement spell – and even more challenging to find one who would be willing to overlook the ex-cleric's "elf problem." I should think that even the most sympathetic Chaotic-Neutral cleric of Gruumsh would require an apostate to complete some arduous quest for the benefit of orc-kind, if not specifically to the detriment of elf-kind, before agreeing to cast the Atonement spell.

In consideration of this, it seems to me likely that Chaotic-Neutral clerics may change deities rather more often than they change their alignment. And it seems to me likely that Chaotic deities are okay with that, particularly those that are Chaotic-Neutral. Olidammara, for example, would surely be pleased to welcome an ex-cleric who had formerly used the power of Gruumsh for years unnoticed while hanging out with elves.

My parting words on this topic will be these: Sure, it's okay to be the Lawful-Neutral or Chaotic-Neutral cleric of an Evil deity. But keep in mind that this career path may create more entertainment for your dungeon master, and more headaches for your character, than you bargained for.

[Marlowe]

I remember making a LN Cleric of Fierna who'd drifted into devil-worship as a result of a wild youth, was currently feeling a bit silly about it but wasn't going to back out, and was trying to grow out of of the "Pyromania and Wanton Hedonism" part of the brief, which had constantly just got her into trouble, and into "Dutiful service to seniors and proven allies"

I never got to develop her much, as my connection to the campaign was severely disrupted by moving to Tartary. I was planning on her developing a rather fatalistic attitude and being inclined toward self-sacrificing actions in defence of the rest of the party (in the absence of senior clerics of Fierna, the party members should be who you're loyal to, right?) She especially wasn't going to try to covert people to worshipping a Fiend while being too weak to defend them against all the other people who'd object to it, and she'd wind up in the Fourth Circle no matter what happens..

I sort of had an idea that about 12th level or so she'd bite the bullet and open a hot-springs resort.

Fierna being Fierna, it's likely she wasn't much aware she even had a Cleric in the first place.

[Jon_Dahl]

An amusing detail: A paladin can adventure with a CN cleric of Erythnul :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

With the proviso that they will not continue an association with someone who "consistantly offends against their moral code".

[Zubrowka74]

I like to represent the disparity between clergy alignment in terms of "churches" and "orders". That and mostly individual fluff, as in the previously cited example of Erythnul or Gruumsh where it is stipulated that the god does or does not have neutral follower / clergy.

If a portofolio has a domain that could be associated with a different alignment, then a spinoff church or order created around this element could exist. The deity might even enforce this by having a dedicated aspect of himself, with a different look and name. Relations between the splits could be goo or bad, this is mostly a setting-dependant situation. It gives you options to play with. Perhaps the main church of Bane view themselves as "pure" and will conflict with the Law-centered LN Order of the Dark Bureaucratic Whatnot. (Sorry for the FR reference, it was my setting of choice for decades.)

[Ettina]

Part of the issue is that one interpretation of Neutral is that it can border on "noncommittal." It is difficult to be an apathetic zealot. A True Neutral deity expects the other side of the coin: an ardent supporter of Balance.

TN isn't necessarily apathetic or obsessed with balance - it could also be someone who strongly cares about things D&D doesn't link with either alignment axis, such as learning as much stuff as possible, or trying to plant tons of trees. Many of those things could fall into the portfolio of a diety who isn't TN. (Wanting to learn everything works for a follower of Vecna.)

[Particle_Man]

There may be apathetic zealots but interestingly there are no true neutral crusaders, FWIW.

I think in some settings like forgotten realms where everyone needs a patron deity or they are screwed, it makes sense for evil deities to take on neutral worshipers (otherwise they will worship someone else and that shifts the deity power balance away from oneself).

Also, clerics usually only get 2 domains, so it seems permissible to worship only aspects of a deity. It might be a deity is not a single coherent personality, but some sort of higher-dimensional collection of super-personalities, each capable of granting spells. So one is a cleric of Hextor, but one is never a cleric of *all* of Hextor, because that would be impossible for a mortal. Hextor is vast and contains multitudes. A cleric worshipping a god is kind of like worshipping the face of a cube, never the whole cube. So gods are sort of the reverse of vestiges?

I do think it dangerous for a non-evil worshipper of an evil God because presumably one still goes to a bad afterlife, and one doesn't even have the fig leaf of "Ah, but I shall work my way up the evil outsider ladder and become a demon lord/devil prince Mwahahahaha!" :smallsmile:

I am curious as to whether any aligned deities lack alignment domains (like a LE deity without the law domain or without the evil domain or without either domain). I can't think of one.

[Marlowe]

TN isn't necessarily apathetic or obsessed with balance - it could also be someone who strongly cares about things D&D doesn't link with either alignment axis, such as learning as much stuff as possible, or trying to plant tons of trees. Many of those things could fall into the portfolio of a diety who isn't TN. (Wanting to learn everything works for a follower of Vecna.)

http://orig04.deviantart.net/c60c/f/2012/245/a/f/the_thread_necromancer_by_sirtiefling-d5dcf00.jpg

[Calthropstu]

I could see many ways for neutral followers of evil deities to exis. Worshipping the evil goddess of storms and paying homage to her in order to avoid her wrath at sea is something most sailors do as canon, regardless of alignment.
Worshipping the god of murder, a chaotic neutral person on a path of revenge trying to kill a great evil organization that the law simply can't handle might seek his favor to succeed.
Worshipping the god of tyranny... tyranny, believe it or not, can actually lead to a much safer environment. In a country overrun by chaos, a tyrant rising to power would be a significant boon. If you don't believe me, go look up what actual Syrians are saying from areas dominated by IS and the "rebels" that we backed.
As for death, many people are fascinated by death, and the idea of coming back after death could have appeal to many, especially people who have lost loved ones. So a good person might pay homage to a god of undeath in the hopes of seeinb the ghost of a loved one.

[Darth Ultron]

I could see many ways for neutral followers of evil deities to exist.

At the most basic the neutral people would ''just follow along'' or ''turn a blind eye'' and be just fine with an evil deity.

It's also the same with neutral people following a good deity.

[Vizzerdrix]

http://orig04.deviantart.net/c60c/f/2012/245/a/f/the_thread_necromancer_by_sirtiefling-d5dcf00.jpg

Love the pic. Quoting it to see where it came from

Anyways, I would love to know how Cas (minor diety fron Frostburn) fits into this for everyone. I've always found Cas to be interesting.

[Particle_Man]

The whole darn thing tips over and dumps reality into the Outer Realms? We make too much noise and Azathoth wakes up, negating existence? The axle snaps and everything stops, releasing us from the cycle of pain and reincarnation and allowing souls to leave the Outer Planes and achieve Nirvana? It becomes impossible to recenter, meaning the cosmos will never come to rest and allow souls to achieve Nirvana?

You could get some pretty epic storylines out of an Actively Neutral campaign.

I think there was a novel by Eve Forward called "Villains by Necessity" where the forces of Good (tm) had won, so the last 6 evil characters had to band together to restore balance to the world, led by a druid, or the world would literally be destroyed (turned into light or something). The main character was an assassin, there was also thief, the druid, a sorceress, a Black Knight, and I think a centaur.

[Clistenes]

Well, if you are a deity, it is in you best interest to have the greatest number of followers; even if you don't directly get power from faith and worship, you still get minions and agents...

So, if you are an evil deity, it is smart to promote a non-evil branch of your church that is dedicated to the most palatable aspects of your dogma. Like, Malarites would be interested in attracting non-evil hunters to their flock, Wee Jaas's church would be interested in attracting mages and morticians, the church of Hextor would be interested in attracting warriors and authoritarian rulers,... etc.