Luffy VS Naruto VS Ichigo at Theoretical Absolute Peaks

[DiscipleofBob]

If you keep up with One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, or really most shounen manga, you may notice a significant amount of power creep over the course of the story, especially if there's a timeskip involved.

There used to be a time when Luffy was just a stupid Mr. Fantastic, Naruto was the world's worst ninja in swarm-form, and Ichigo didn't even know what a Shikai was. Now they've gotten to absolute ridiculous levels. Not quite Dragonball Z ridiculous yet, but there's still time.

We could measure these characters over various points in their careers: pre-timeskip, post-timeskip, at the end of their first or second arcs, etcetera, but we end up with arbitrary cutoff dates. We can't even go all the way to the present because these storylines are STILL going on, and Shounen authors can always make up some new way for their powers to grow.

So here's the rule:

Take three of the munchkiniest munchkins of players. The type of people who look at Level 30 Batman Wizards and think "I can do better." The type of people who create things like the Tippyverse. The type of people who make characters like Old Man Henderson and win Call of Cthulhu.

Each munchkin is assigned one of the three contestants: Monkey D. Luffy, Uzumaki Naruto, and Kurosaki Ichigo. They are then given the ENTIRETY of their given universe's mechanics to assume potential growth. If it is even the least bit possible that Naruto can learn a particular jutsu or exploit some factoid of the world of Naruto, it's fair game. The same goes for the One Piece settings and Bleach settings. The goal is for the munchkins to exploit whatever in-universe mechanics to figure out the greatest possible potential for each character and determine who would win.

The only restrictions are as follows:

1. Each character is restricted to the mechanics of their own universe. Naruto cannot get a Zanpakuto. Luffy cannot learn jutsus. Ichigo cannot eat a Devil Fruit. Etcetera.
2. There is no transparency between mechanics. Chakra is not the same thing as Haki which is not the same thing as Reiryoku or Reiatsu or whatever else Bleach uses. A Naruto technique which shuts down Chakra would not work to negate Ichigo or Luffy's techniques, for example.
3. Ichigo is technically a spirit when he fights usually, but the purposes of this fight they're all corporeal, can be killed, etc.
4. The battleground is some barren moon somewhere with no collateral damage to worry about but enough atmosphere and other basic features that the fighters can still operate at their peak.
5. No outside help. Naruto doesn't get any ninja allies. Luffy doesn't get his crew.
6. Any and all equipment and items that they can carry with them from their respective universes are fair game. Full metagaming IS allowed to decide what each character wants to bring to the fight.
7. Typically these characters get stronger under duress or when fighting for their friends, or fighting a stronger opponent, or something or other. For the sake of this fight, each character gets their max possible bonus that they could get for this X factor, despite no one else being around.
8. Temporary strategic retreats (Ex: Naruto going for cover so he can pull some ninja clone gambit) are acceptable. Long retreats (Ex: Naruto somehow hiding or teleporting far enough away until his opponents kill each other or fall asleep) are not acceptable and count as forfeits.
9. If a character can't be killed but merely knocked unconscious or absolutely unable to continue in some other way, that counts as a loss. If a character can be killed but has a way to come back from the dead, still counts as a loss.

BONUS ROUND: Submit another character to participate in this battle royale, one who you'd think would fit. Rules are no Dragonball in any of its incarnations (too easy), no Mechs, preferably Shounen genre and preferably the main protagonist.

[LaZodiac]

I usually don't participate in these, because I'm not smart, but I'll put in my two cents here.

Condition 7 makes this Luffy's win, hands down. Naruto cares for his friends, and Ichigo does as well, but neither of them get the type of boost that Luffy gets from this. "Nakama" the concept of friendship, is essentially a meta game power in One Piece. The others can't compete with this.

[Raimun]

The winner of Bonus Round is Kamina.

Without mechas. :smallcool:

[Frozen_Feet]

Ichigo in his Final Getsuga form destroys his competition pretty thoroughly. Naruto wins in breadth of ability, but loses in plain speed, strenght and durability. Luffy is approximately on par with Non-kyubi Naruto and pre-final-getsuga Ichigo, but if we get to power-up stacking contest, One Piece universe doesnt offer combo-platter powers comparable to Kido or Ninjutsu.

[Flickerdart]

Naruto does pretty well on speed, given that he can literally teleport (the fourth hokage's technique). Ichigo can do it too, so I think they're pretty well matched on that front. Final Getsuga Tenshou doesn't seem to be terribly useful in this case, since it's one-shot.

[Starbuck_II]

If they aren't fighting near water Luffy wins because of Gum-Gum fruit is awesome.

[Frozen_Feet]

Both ninjutsu and Kido can create enough water to drown Luffy.

[DiscipleofBob]

From what I can tell, Luffy's definitely the slowest of the three even with Gear Second, but he can also take the most punishment. And with Observation Haki and Armor Haki, he stands a good chance of blocking, deflecting, or dodging a lot of attacks regardless of the speed of his opponent. He's also displayed the ability to keep fighting even after running the time on Gear Second or Gear Third, suffering the effects of using each but still getting back into the fight.

Naruto's definitely got the versatility advantage, since it's conceivable for him to learn and master a lot of the different jutsus in his universe. His biggest problem is that once he runs out of MP chakra he's screwed. He's also the only potential source for water in this environment with a Water Release technique which could really hurt Luffy, but Luffy's also demonstrated that while water cripples him, it doesn't necessarily spell the end of the fight for him.

Ichigo tops the other two in raw power and raw speed, especially with Final Getsuga, or one of his many other forms. Also with current Bleach events there are likely a wide variety of abilities he could potentially access, though nothing like what would be available to Naruto. He also suffers the problem of once he runs out of steam.

[Grinner]

After the week-long shouting match, the sheer amount of awesome concentrated in such a tiny area would cause the local space-time continuum to implode, ripping asunder all logic and reason in a twenty-mile radius.

[The Troubadour]

Condition 7 makes this Luffy's win, hands down. Naruto cares for his friends, and Ichigo does as well, but neither of them get the type of boost that Luffy gets from this.

Except when Ichigo went from "I broke my hand swinging a sword at Kenpachi" to "I hurt him with my regular attack" because he felt Chad nearly dying. Or when he went from "Grimmjaw is kicking my ass" to "sorry, can't let you hurt me anymore, I'm gonna beat you up now" because Inoue begged him not to die. And so on and so forth.

Assuming all theoretical conditions, I'm thinking Ichigo would win this fight on sheer power. He already has the powers of a Captain-level Shinigami (so super-speed, super-reflexes, super-strength, super-resistance, and energy projection on the level of a Dragon Ball [not Z] attack) enhanced by his Fullbringer and Vizard powers (so even more speed, strength, etc.), plus Quincy/Vandenreich powers (so far, he's only increased his defense, but at his theoretical peak, he could choose betwen increasing defense or strength).

I imagine Ichigo at his theoretical peak would combine the powers of Final Getsuga Tensho and either Letzt Stil (the super-Quincy form Ishida used) or Vollständig (the super-Quincy form the Stern Ritter use). So he could either increase his physical abilities to a level which I don't think even Naruto with the Nine-Tails' power can match, or he could basically absorb all ambient spirit energy and combine it with his own vast reserves of spirit energy to deliver an attack which would probably cover the entire area of the fight.

As for characters from other series, if they could also be at their theoretical peak, I think it would be interesting to have Dio Brando (from "JoJo's Bizarre Adventure") face those guys. Oh, physically I don't think he'd be a match for them... But at his theoretical peak, Dio could stop time indefinitely, and he would also have all of his vampiric powers, meaning he could inject them with mind-controlling spores, drain all of their body heat and freeze them, or simply drain all of their blood while they're frozen in time. Of course, his timestop power still has an activation time (even if it's small), so they could still beat him... But they'd have to destroy his body completely with a single attack, otherwise he could still come back.

[PlusSixPelican]

Clarify no outside help. Can Naruto still use Summon Jutsu?

[Prime32]

Under these conditions I'd have to give it to Naruto. If he knows every technique it's theoretically possible for him to learn, that means he's trapping people in illusions, summoning indestructible super-zombies, destroying souls, and all kinds of crazy stuff. Not to mention what would happen if he unlocked a Rinnegan. Heck, even the basic Transformation skill would be useful for tricking the other combatants.


As for characters from other series, if they could also be at their theoretical peak, I think it would be interesting to have Dio Brando (from "JoJo's Bizarre Adventure") face those guys. Oh, physically I don't think he'd be a match for them... But at his theoretical peak, Dio could stop time indefinitely, and he would also have all of his vampiric powers, meaning he could inject them with mind-controlling spores, drain all of their body heat and freeze them, or simply drain all of their blood while they're frozen in time. Of course, his timestop power still has an activation time (even if it's small), so they could still beat him... But they'd have to destroy his body completely with a single attack, otherwise he could still come back.Better: Use Cars, and have him eat Dio and Vanilla Ice and gain their powers. :smalltongue:

[DiscipleofBob]

Clarify no outside help. Can Naruto still use Summon Jutsu?

He could use the summon jutsu to retrieve equipment, but no frogs.

EDIT:


Under these conditions I'd have to give it to Naruto. If he knows every technique it's theoretically possible for him to learn, that means he's trapping people in illusions, summoning indestructible super-zombies, destroying souls, and all kinds of crazy stuff. Not to mention what would happen if he unlocked a Rinnegan. Heck, even the basic Transformation skill would be useful for tricking the other combatants.

The zombies would qualify as outside help and don't count here. The other stuff is viable though. Illusions alone might win it for Naruto, I'm not certain what, if any, defenses Luffy and Ichigo would have besides your basic Shounen trope of breaking out of illusions with your fighting spirit or something.

[Olinser]

If Naruto is allowed to use his Kurama form, which is arguably receiving outside help, he wins easily. (Although he MAY have competition from Ichigo's final Hollow form - which is most definitely not allowed by the rules posted as it was an entirely different entity in control).

If he's relegated to Sage Mode, Ichigo wins just as easily, especially if we are talking Ichigo after his pre-Aizen powerup.

Luffy is a distant 3rd. He simply doesn't have the speed, power, or versatility to stand up to the other 2.

Which actually makes sense. Both Bleach and Naruto are building towards their conclusion.

One Piece is barely half over.

[DiscipleofBob]

If Naruto is allowed to use his Kurama form, which is arguably receiving outside help, he wins easily. (Although he MAY have competition from Ichigo's final Hollow form - which is most definitely not allowed by the rules posted as it was an entirely different entity in control).

If he's relegated to Sage Mode, Ichigo wins just as easily, especially if we are talking Ichigo after his pre-Aizen powerup.

Luffy is a distant 3rd. He simply doesn't have the speed, power, or versatility to stand up to the other 2.

Which actually makes sense. Both Bleach and Naruto are building towards their conclusion.

One Piece is barely half over.

To clarify, Naruto has Kyuubi, and Ichigo has his hollow form and Zangetsu available. I don't consider those outside help.

[Olinser]

And for the bonus round, I hereby propose Issei or Vali from High School DxD.

Issei doubles his power every 10 seconds.

Vali cuts yours in half and adds it to his own every 10 seconds.

[Olinser]

To clarify, Naruto has Kyuubi, and Ichigo has his hollow form and Zangetsu available. I don't consider those outside help.

Not his Vizard form, when he actually fully transformed into the horned Hollow, when he killed Ulquiorra.

[DiscipleofBob]

Not his Vizard form, when he actually fully transformed into the horned Hollow, when he killed Ulquiorra.

I consider that to be completely Ichigo. Even if it was berserk hollow Ichigo.

Unless it turns out that the form that killed Ulquiorra was completely due to some outside force, it's valid for the fight.

[Prime32]

I propose Kamen Rider Decade with access to the full power of every Kamen Rider. This includes Kuuga's atomic kicks, Kabuto's control (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzcbVdw0QIo) over time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lebcaavtGVo), OOO's ability to destroy things made out of desires, J's ability to grow to the size of a skyscraper, Ryuki's ability to travel through mirrors, Fourze's ability to create wormholes, Double's access to all forms of knowledge, and Wizard's ability to travel inside peoples' souls and destroy them (albeit if he tried that on Naruto he'd have to fight Kurama). Oh, and multiple sources of flight and self-replication.

[Sith_Happens]

Have to give this to Naruto, because under these engagement conditions he actually IS a level 30 Batman Wizard. Ichigo probably still has about an order of magnitude or so more raw power, but there have been plenty of jutsu shown over the years that, when properly utilized, let the user stand up to an otherwise stronger opponent based solely on what they do.

[Kato]

Well we could add somebody from Dragonball... Okay, okay, we'll leave some amount of challenge. This also basically removes Alucard from the equation, Medaka, and all other ridiculous over the top heroes. I guess one could argue to add a powerful Fairy Tail (manga, not guild) mage but with the poor consistency in power level there it might not be the best idea.

As I'm 99% unfamiliar with Bleach I cn only agree that Naruto is pretty far ahead of Luffy at this point. No idea if he will ever catch up to that level but right now from what we know Naruto beats him with his hands behind his back, I guess.

[PlusSixPelican]

Kurama isn't outside help, he's inside help, so he counts.

I give it to Naruto. He was able to beat Kurama into submission without any outside help (but with inside help). With all his crazy new stuff, he can make a clone army that doesn't poof after one hit (Tailed Beast Mode is insaaaane) and then just fling Planetary Rasengans everywhere. Everything dies, he regens if he gets hit, dusts himself off, then goes off to have filler adventures.

Although Naruto v. Alucard would be VERY fun to watch.

[Olinser]

I consider that to be completely Ichigo. Even if it was berserk hollow Ichigo.

Unless it turns out that the form that killed Ulquiorra was completely due to some outside force, it's valid for the fight.

Have you read the recent Bleach chapters? While it isn't confirmed,

An identical Hollow appears to have 'bonded' onto Ichigo's mother. Full implications haven't been revealed - but the obvious answer is that the Hollow is now bonded onto Ichigo. Which of course makes it a completely separate entity.

[DiscipleofBob]

Well we could add somebody from Dragonball... Okay, okay, we'll leave some amount of challenge. This also basically removes Alucard from the equation, Medaka, and all other ridiculous over the top heroes. I guess one could argue to add a powerful Fairy Tail (manga, not guild) mage but with the poor consistency in power level there it might not be the best idea.

As I'm 99% unfamiliar with Bleach I cn only agree that Naruto is pretty far ahead of Luffy at this point. No idea if he will ever catch up to that level but right now from what we know Naruto beats him with his hands behind his back, I guess.

There's a reason I said preferably Shounen characters, to cut out guys like Alucard. Alucard's on a tier all his own, with only a couple other guys from Hellsing and maybe Black Butler's Sebastian as far as I can tell.

I'd argue that One Piece is that far "behind" either Bleach or Naruto. While he's not as fast as the other two, Observation Haki gives him limited precog abilities so he can see incoming attacks before they happen, and Armament Haki gives Luffy some pretty significant armor and damage. I could see Observation Haki and an Impact or Reject Dial doing substantial damage in this fight.

[DiscipleofBob]

Have you read the recent Bleach chapters? While it isn't confirmed,

An identical Hollow appears to have 'bonded' onto Ichigo's mother. Full implications haven't been revealed - but the obvious answer is that the Hollow is now bonded onto Ichigo. Which of course makes it a completely separate entity.

First of all, Full implications haven't been revealed is important there.

Second of all, the implication is that said hollow ended up influencing Ichigo's birth. It's the same as Kurama being sealed inside Naruto. Yes it's technically a separate entity, but it's an established part of Ichigo's character and powerset.

It counts.

[Traab]

Naruto has an edge here that hasnt been mentioned. All three characters have insane durability and can take mountain shattering hits and keep fighting, but I am pretty sure naruto is the only one that has an actual healing factor which means he not only has the usual hero durability, he can actually partially recover while in mid battle. Its one thing to take a massive day ruining hit from a big bad and struggling back to your feet to keep fighting. Its something else when after struggling to your feet you start healing. Combine this with his top end speed easily matching the best the other two can come up with, AND the sheer unbridled versatility of the naruto universe, as well as more than his share of one hit game enders, and I have to give the edge to him. I

[Somewhere]

I'd probably give it to Naruto. Got Kyuubi chakra? Use it! Hide somewhere (or just keep running around), pump out clones, spread them out, and have them spam the Temple of Nirvana jutsu until Luffy and Ichigo stay asleep. Or even if they don't stay asleep, constantly fighting it off takes away concentration. In the meantime, he could probably set up earth walls around the place to form a box and use water jutsu to flood the enclosure.

[The Troubadour]

Better: Use Cars, and have him eat Dio and Vanilla Ice and gain their powers. :smalltongue:

Heh, I know it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, but that would be an interesting idea. I just don't think Cars would be able to gain their Stands, though.

[Traab]

Yeah thats the biggest problem with the entire naruto verse being at his fingertips. There are just SO FREAKING MANY ways that naruto could combine jutsus and just obliterate everyone else. I mean, just as an example, what stops naruto from pulling off that great water shockwave technique where kisame basically creates a lake, then slamming that lake with luffy and ichigo inside it with a kirin to straight up insta kill them both? Even if only luffy gets hammered by it, thats one guy down and done.

There was a story I read once with a super powerful naruto where he had this special ability that for the life of me, I cant figure out a way to claim it as impossible in this scenario. Basically, he infuses his chakra into the wind around luffy and ichigo. They inhale that wind, and he proceeds to turn it into wind blades inside their lungs. All it takes is a buttload of chakra control and practice, both of which would be within the limits set here. Something he could theoretically learn to do.

[Istari]

Naruto has an edge here that hasnt been mentioned. All three characters have insane durability and can take mountain shattering hits and keep fighting, but I am pretty sure naruto is the only one that has an actual healing factor which means he not only has the usual hero durability, he can actually partially recover while in mid battle. Its one thing to take a massive day ruining hit from a big bad and struggling back to your feet to keep fighting. Its something else when after struggling to your feet you start healing. Combine this with his top end speed easily matching the best the other two can come up with, AND the sheer unbridled versatility of the naruto universe, as well as more than his share of one hit game enders, and I have to give the edge to him. I

Ichigo would get access to Kido though, including the healing ones. Though he's never actually used any there isn't anything mentioned in the manga preventing him other than lack of training (which isn't a factor here).

[Olinser]

Yeah thats the biggest problem with the entire naruto verse being at his fingertips. There are just SO FREAKING MANY ways that naruto could combine jutsus and just obliterate everyone else. I mean, just as an example, what stops naruto from pulling off that great water shockwave technique where kisame basically creates a lake, then slamming that lake with luffy and ichigo inside it with a kirin to straight up insta kill them both? Even if only luffy gets hammered by it, thats one guy down and done.

There was a story I read once with a super powerful naruto where he had this special ability that for the life of me, I cant figure out a way to claim it as impossible in this scenario. Basically, he infuses his chakra into the wind around luffy and ichigo. They inhale that wind, and he proceeds to turn it into wind blades inside their lungs. All it takes is a buttload of chakra control and practice, both of which would be within the limits set here. Something he could theoretically learn to do.

Just because the technique exists in the Naruto world doesn't mean he can automatically use it.

Only somebody with a Rinnegan can use all 5 elemental schools. Right now Naruto can use exactly 1 - Wind.

Thus, any discussion of Naruto using water, fire, earth or lightning techniques has no place until he acquires a Rinnegan or another jutsu affinity.

Even Kakashi with a Sharingan that can copy any technique he can see can only use 3 - Lightning, Water and Earth.

[Somewhere]

Hiruzen used fire and earth techniques.
Wind affinity doesn't prevent Naruto from using other elements, it just makes it tougher for him to learn. And he can cheat with clone training (really, anything that can be brute forced with time can be cheated this way).

[DiscipleofBob]

Just because the technique exists in the Naruto world doesn't mean he can automatically use it.

Only somebody with a Rinnegan can use all 5 elemental schools. Right now Naruto can use exactly 1 - Wind.

Thus, any discussion of Naruto using water, fire, earth or lightning techniques has no place until he acquires a Rinnegan or another jutsu affinity.

Even Kakashi with a Sharingan that can copy any technique he can see can only use 3 - Lightning, Water and Earth.

That's not actually true. Kakashi can use all five elements, and in fact any ninja CAN use all five elements. They just have a special affinity with one particular element and it's much easier for them to master jutsus of their particular element. Unless they have a Bloodline Limit, when they have an affinity with two elements and can combine them for jutsus. Kakashi has used Fire Release techniques in the past.

[Traab]

Just because the technique exists in the Naruto world doesn't mean he can automatically use it.

Only somebody with a Rinnegan can use all 5 elemental schools. Right now Naruto can use exactly 1 - Wind.

Thus, any discussion of Naruto using water, fire, earth or lightning techniques has no place until he acquires a Rinnegan or another jutsu affinity.

Even Kakashi with a Sharingan that can copy any technique he can see can only use 3 - Lightning, Water and Earth.

He has also used ice. The sandaime has been seen using multiple elements as well. I dont recall reading any official information that says it is impossible to learn to use all 5 basic elements with enough effort. I know one of the benefits of the rinnegan is to let you use all 5 easily, but with enough effort I dont see why naruto couldnt do his shadow clone training for all the basic elements. Even if some are weaker than others.

[DiscipleofBob]

He has also used ice. The sandaime has been seen using multiple elements as well. I dont recall reading any official information that says it is impossible to learn to use all 5 basic elements with enough effort. I know one of the benefits of the rinnegan is to let you use all 5 easily, but with enough effort I dont see why naruto couldnt do his shadow clone training for all the basic elements. Even if some are weaker than others.

I don't think he's used ice outside of the non-canon movies. I could be wrong though. And I think that while using more than one element isn't uncommon, using two elements combined in one jutsu is supposed to be unique to Bloodline Limits.

Bottom line is: due to the scenario setup, Naruto can very well conceivable learn all five elements.

[Macros]

Ichigo would get access to Kido though, including the healing ones.

Not sure he needs healing kido. If we're giving him all the abilities of his previous forms, that should include his complete hollow form... which managed to regenerate his heart. Somehow, I doubt kido could give him better results.

Now, I'm not sure who would get the edge between Ichigo and Naruto. At their peaks, as shown in their stories, I'd give it to Ichigo. With access to pretty much every power sources of their verses... Well, there is crazy jutsus out there.

[Olinser]

That's not actually true. Kakashi can use all five elements, and in fact any ninja CAN use all five elements. They just have a special affinity with one particular element and it's much easier for them to master jutsus of their particular element. Unless they have a Bloodline Limit, when they have an affinity with two elements and can combine them for jutsus. Kakashi has used Fire Release techniques in the past.

No, he can't.

Jiraiya said flat out that Nagato's learning of all 5 technique types was an unheard of feat in the world of ninja. Even the Kage can only use at most 3 elemental types. Even the Tsuchikage, who is older than dirt, only has 3 (Fire, Wind, Earth).

Kakashi's fire jutsu were anime-only, and thus, not canon. And even in the anime he has never used Wind. Canonically, he has the 3 that I already stated.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have to give it to Naruto, as per the conditions of battle if it is really feasible that Naruto could gain any technique or whatever we can assume he will. In that case Naruto has both the Rinnegan AND the Sharingan and there is nothing that can prevent him to.

Besides the only theoretical limit to the power of an implanted Dojutsu (stupidly high Chakra drain) is a moot point since Naruto has virtually limitless Chakra thanks to both Kurama and Sage mode (if he looses too much sage mod rapidly, he forms two Kurama-enhanced clones to deal with Ichigo & Luffy while he retreats temporally to meditate and re-enter Sage Mode).

Curiously enough there are two great (IMO) fanfics that deal with a post-series Naruto going into the Bleach universe and the One Piece universe, while Naruto does have some non-cannon* advantages his is stronger than the Strawhats, the shinigami. They are called "True Warriors never die" and "Shinobi of the High Seas" I highly recommend them.

Spoiler for those who want to read the stories*
He does have the Rinnegan; but save a few selected battles he mostly sticks to Sage mode/normal jutsu

[DiscipleofBob]

No, he can't.

Jiraiya said flat out that Nagato's learning of all 5 technique types was an unheard of feat in the world of ninja. Even the Kage can only use at most 3 elemental types. Even the Tsuchikage, who is older than dirt, only has 3 (Fire, Wind, Earth).

Kakashi's fire jutsu were anime-only, and thus, not canon. And even in the anime he has never used Wind. Canonically, he has the 3 that I already stated.

Source please?

The only thing I can find on the subject so far is where Jiraiya says that MASTERING all five elementals PLUS Yin and Yang separate and combined at the age of 10, which was indeed unprecedented, and I am unable to find anything which confirms that Kakashi only has access to three elements.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Wiki notes that he has used Lighting (natural affinity) high level water techniques (vs. Zabuza) fire and earth; but it notes that he is knowledgeable enough of wind techniques to help naruto develop his own.

[Starwulf]

There's a reason I said preferably Shounen characters, to cut out guys like Alucard. Alucard's on a tier all his own, with only a couple other guys from Hellsing and maybe Black Butler's Sebastian as far as I can tell.

I'd argue that One Piece is that far "behind" either Bleach or Naruto. While he's not as fast as the other two, Observation Haki gives him limited precog abilities so he can see incoming attacks before they happen, and Armament Haki gives Luffy some pretty significant armor and damage. I could see Observation Haki and an Impact or Reject Dial doing substantial damage in this fight.

Issue with "limited precog abilities" is if you're allowing Naruto access to pretty much ANYTHING in the Narutoverse, he therefore has access to Mangekyo Sharingan AND the Rinnegan. The MS gives him a significant precog ability, and the ability to trap people into nearly unbreakable illusions. Rinnegan allows him to absorb jutsu, repel people and objects with a word(two, sorry. Shinra Tensei), summon non-intelligent(entirely under his control, which might bypass the non-ally clause, since it's technically just a creation of his chakra) creatures, revive himself if he makes a clone with the Path of Life ability(or just fully heals up what the fox doesn't, making it that much harder to do any significant amount of damage to slow him down), etc etc. Luffy is outclassed a thousand to one just by those two eyes alone, not to mention the absurd amount of jutsus that he would have access to in this kind of fight.

I'd have to say the entire battle goes to Naruto, though I do believe he might suffer a small amount of damage from Ichigo in the end, maybe even damage that the fox couldn't regenerate, it just wouldn't be enough. Naruto is rapidly approaching Cell-era powerlevels of DBZ, and god only knows what kind of insane power-ups might still be in the wings before all is said and done. A fully powered Rasenshuriken would obliterate Frieza, I can safely say that. Probably even cell, since it destroys things on a cellular level.

[gooddragon1]

Ichigo hands down. Ichigo can move faster than light and destroy mountains with a single swing of his sword. He can withstand effects that warp gravity and get some burns from what looks like a nuke going off in his face. If we combine the hollow healing factor he can take this punishment all day. He stopped a projectile that decimated the landscape barehanded in hollow form. He's not even on a three dimensional power level scale according to aizen. He need not use mugetsu to win this. And apparently he now has a new set of powers to play around with. The only series I would put above him in power level are dbz and tengen toppa.

[Starwulf]

Ichigo hands down. Ichigo can move faster than light and destroy mountains with a single swing of his sword. He can withstand effects that warp gravity and get some burns from what looks like a nuke going off in his face. If we combine the hollow healing factor he can take this punishment all day. He stopped a projectile that decimated the landscape barehanded in hollow form. He's not even on a three dimensional power level scale according to aizen. He need not use mugetsu to win this. And apparently he now has a new set of powers to play around with. The only series I would put above him in power level are dbz and tengen toppa.

Nagato from the Narutoverse was shown to have virtually obliterated Konoha, one of the 5 Great villages with just his Gravity jutsu, Shinra Tensei, all by itself. Now imagine that powered up to insane levels with 9 tails of Fox Chakra behind it. Mountain? Try Mountain Range and have the surrounding countryside.

[gooddragon1]

Nagato from the Narutoverse was shown to have virtually obliterated Konoha, one of the 5 Great villages with just his Gravity jutsu, Shinra Tensei, all by itself. Now imagine that powered up to insane levels with 9 tails of Fox Chakra behind it. Mountain? Try Mountain Range and have the surrounding countryside.

Similar effect with a lesser villain. (http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=euqpuA9ojr8#/3891;3920) That would have taken out a whole lot had there been anything to take out.

And he blocks it. (http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=euqpuA9ojr8#/4037;4046) With... his hand.

Ichigo has fought with villains who could potentially kill their incarnation of a deity.

[Somewhere]

Is Ichigo 'moving faster than light' literal or hyperbolic? As there's a character from another WSJ series who I'd think would win against the three here by virtue of explicitly being able to reach a speed of Mach 20 and has damaged the moon such that it is a crescent.

Come to think of it, given the premise of the series I'm thinking of, he does qualify for planet-buster level.

[gooddragon1]

Is Ichigo 'moving faster than light' literal or hyperbolic? As there's a character from another WSJ series who I'd think would win against the three here by virtue of explicitly being able to reach a speed of Mach 20 and has damaged the moon such that it is a crescent.

No longer sure. I thought that flash steps was named that because they move faster than light. I've heard of some characters moving vast distances so fast it seemed as though they'd teleported. Ichigo in his form is faster than even that.

[Fan]

Good Dragon, Ichigo isn't faster than light, his attacks aren't even faster than light.

Here's the math I've done with associated (and marked) scans. Keep in mind this IS a repost of calc's I've done in the past, and posted here and in other places like KMC. I've said this before, but it bears repeating.

Here we have the super climatic battle between Aizen (Ascended), and Ichigo (Dangai), in which we see his sword strike destroy a good portion of a near by hill, here's a nice little scan from a later page taken from this resource here (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=14758).


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1199/bleachv48c41718.png



Using the conversions provided in there we see can see this:

Height of the Rock near the hill is 41 pixels.

Height of the hill top is 399 pixels

Width of the hill top is 578 pixels

height/rock ratio = 9.73

width/rock ratio = 14.1

Height = 53.52 meters

Width = 77.55 meters

and from we know that the average density of continental crust is 2700 kg/m^3, and we'll be using 20 KWH for the crushing of rock into fine power. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_crust - "Consisting mostly of granitic rock, continental crust has a density of about 2.7 g/cm3" ), now we just need to convert this into joules for proper mathing.

http://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-e...-kWh-to-J.html
20 kwh = 72000000 J
907 kg / 2700 kg/m^3 = 0.3359 m^3 = 335900 cm^3
72000000 J / 335900 cm^3 = 214.35 J/cc

With this, we can now calculate the average force exerted by the shockwave.

10,655,595,720,000 / 45.75 = 232,909,196,065.6 N, the average force exerted by the shockwave.

Now we need to find the pressure.

So 3.14 * 22.875 * 38.775 = 2,785.111 m^2, the area affected by the shockwave.

P = F/A

232,909,196,065.6 / 2,785.111 =83,626,539.86 N/m^2 / 1,000 = 83,626.54 Kpa, the pressure exerted by the shockwave.

With our pressure in Kilopascals, we can now find the speed of the shockwave.

Pt = Pressure total, 83,626.54 Kpa
P1 = Atmospheric pressure, I'll be using 101.325 Kpa here.
Y = Specific heat Ratio, here I'll be using 1.4, which is basically something for perfect conditions.

Pt / P1 = ( ( y + 1)^2 M^2 / 4y M^2 - 2 (y - 1) ) y / y - 1 (1 - y) + 2y M^2 / y + 1


83,626.54 / 101.325 = ( (1.4 + 1)^2 * M^2 / 4 * 1.4 M^2 - 2 (1.4 - 1) ) 1.4 / 1.4 - 1 (1 - 1.4) + 2 * 1.4 M^2 / 1.4 + 1.

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4)+(2.8 * M^2) / .4

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4/.4)+(2.8 * M^2 /.4)

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-1+(7 * M^2)

X = 10.3187, or 10.32.

Dangai Ichigo, using his best feats in attack speed is Mach 10.32.

He has NO mountain busting feats, and NO ONE in Bleach is FTL.

[Olinser]

I don't think he's used ice outside of the non-canon movies. I could be wrong though. And I think that while using more than one element isn't uncommon, using two elements combined in one jutsu is supposed to be unique to Bloodline Limits.

Bottom line is: due to the scenario setup, Naruto can very well conceivable learn all five elements.

The POINT is that he doesn't have anything other than Wind, and without serious training, he won't (and will never learn all 5 - we just don't know which ones he CAN learn). Are we going to give him a Rinnegan or Sharingan because it 'could' happen?

Are we going to let Ichigo have any Bankai shown in the story because the Quincy have something that can steal Bankai? Or use any Kido shown, even though he hasn't yet used a single Kido ability? Or give him a Hogyuko, Aizen style?

Or Luffy have a 2nd Devil Fruit power because Blackbeard managed to steal Whitebeard's and add it to his own?

If so, then Ichigo takes Aizen's Zanpakuto, and wins. Period.

[Dusk Eclipse]

<snip>
Each munchkin is assigned one of the three contestants: Monkey D. Luffy, Uzumaki Naruto, and Kurosaki Ichigo. They are then given the ENTIRETY of their given universe's mechanics to assume potential growth. If it is even the least bit possible that Naruto can learn a particular jutsu or exploit some factoid of the world of Naruto, it's fair game. The same goes for the One Piece settings and Bleach settings. The goal is for the munchkins to exploit whatever in-universe mechanics to figure out the greatest possible potential for each character and determine who would win.
<snip>


The POINT is that he doesn't have anything other than Wind, and without serious training, he won't (and will never learn all 5 - we just don't know which ones he CAN learn). Are we going to give him a Rinnegan or Sharingan because it 'could' happen?

Are we going to let Ichigo have any Bankai shown in the story because the Quincy have something that can steal Bankai? Or use any Kido shown, even though he hasn't yet used a single Kido ability? Or give him a Hogyuko, Aizen style?

Or Luffy have a 2nd Devil Fruit power because Blackbeard managed to steal Whitebeard's and add it to his own?

If so, then Ichigo takes Aizen's Zanpakuto, and wins. Period.

As per the rules stated in the OP Naruto can get all those techniques, since there isn't any rule in the narautoverse that actually prevents Naruto from trying to learn techniques outside of Wind based-ones; but in the Bleach-verse there are rules that prevent a Shinigami from taking another's Zampaktou (since Ichigo is now part Quincy he could, again based on the thread's rules learn the ability to steal Bankai, though it wouldn't do anything since the OP also states there is no transparency) Luffy also can't get another Devil's fruit; but he could learn all the C-Poll techniques for example.

[gooddragon1]

Good Dragon, Ichigo isn't faster than light, his attacks aren't even faster than light.

Here's the math I've done with associated (and marked) scans. Keep in mind this IS a repost of calc's I've done in the past, and posted here and in other places like KMC. I've said this before, but it bears repeating.

Here we have the super climatic battle between Aizen (Ascended), and Ichigo (Dangai), in which we see his sword strike destroy a good portion of a near by hill, here's a nice little scan from a later page taken from this resource here (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=14758).


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1199/bleachv48c41718.png



Using the conversions provided in there we see can see this:

Height of the Rock near the hill is 41 pixels.

Height of the hill top is 399 pixels

Width of the hill top is 578 pixels

height/rock ratio = 9.73

width/rock ratio = 14.1

Height = 53.52 meters

Width = 77.55 meters

and from we know that the average density of continental crust is 2700 kg/m^3, and we'll be using 20 KWH for the crushing of rock into fine power. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_crust - "Consisting mostly of granitic rock, continental crust has a density of about 2.7 g/cm3" ), now we just need to convert this into joules for proper mathing.

http://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-e...-kWh-to-J.html
20 kwh = 72000000 J
907 kg / 2700 kg/m^3 = 0.3359 m^3 = 335900 cm^3
72000000 J / 335900 cm^3 = 214.35 J/cc

With this, we can now calculate the average force exerted by the shockwave.

10,655,595,720,000 / 45.75 = 232,909,196,065.6 N, the average force exerted by the shockwave.

Now we need to find the pressure.

So 3.14 * 22.875 * 38.775 = 2,785.111 m^2, the area affected by the shockwave.

P = F/A

232,909,196,065.6 / 2,785.111 =83,626,539.86 N/m^2 / 1,000 = 83,626.54 Kpa, the pressure exerted by the shockwave.

With our pressure in Kilopascals, we can now find the speed of the shockwave.

Pt = Pressure total, 83,626.54 Kpa
P1 = Atmospheric pressure, I'll be using 101.325 Kpa here.
Y = Specific heat Ratio, here I'll be using 1.4, which is basically something for perfect conditions.

Pt / P1 = ( ( y + 1)^2 M^2 / 4y M^2 - 2 (y - 1) ) y / y - 1 (1 - y) + 2y M^2 / y + 1


83,626.54 / 101.325 = ( (1.4 + 1)^2 * M^2 / 4 * 1.4 M^2 - 2 (1.4 - 1) ) 1.4 / 1.4 - 1 (1 - 1.4) + 2 * 1.4 M^2 / 1.4 + 1.

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4)+(2.8 * M^2) / .4

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4/.4)+(2.8 * M^2 /.4)

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-1+(7 * M^2)

X = 10.3187, or 10.32.

Dangai Ichigo, using his best feats in attack speed is Mach 10.32.

He has NO mountain busting feats, and NO ONE in Bleach is FTL.

Well, you need to take a few things into account:
Neither ichigo nor aizen wanted to blow up the planet
-Ichigo is trying to protect people
-Aizen wants to make a key

Look at the damage the 4th espada did. Note that they're not allowed to release their form inside the dome or they'll destroy it. Ichigo and aizen are on a power level that's dimensionally greater than that. With ichigo being even higher than than aizen by 1 more dimension. They're concentrating their attacks to minimize damage to the surrounding area. It's been stated that shinigami compress their swords lest they be swinging around mountains. These are captain level shinigami, not the craziness that ichigo is at. I would not put planetary or perhaps even galactic level destruction past ichigo if he really tried since I can only imagine that's how big his zanpakuto would be if we're going by scale.

Also, I regret having to argue against you. You're not exactly a nice guy the further we get into an argument.

[Fan]

Well, you need to take a few things into account:
Neither ichigo nor aizen wanted to blow up the planet
-Ichigo is trying to protect people
-Aizen wants to make a key

Look at the damage the 4th espada did. Note that they're not allowed to release their form inside the dome or they'll destroy it. Ichigo and aizen are on a power level that's dimensionally greater than that. With ichigo being even higher than than aizen by 1 more dimension. They're concentrating their attacks to minimize damage to the surrounding area. It's been stated that shinigami compress their swords lest they be swinging around mountains. These are captain level shinigami, not the craziness that ichigo is at. I would not put planetary or perhaps even galactic level destruction past ichigo if he really tried since I can only imagine that's how big his zanpakuto would be if we're going by scale.

Also, I regret having to argue against you. You're not exactly a nice guy the further we get into an argument.

I don't see any of that evidence as having any concrete basis beyond speculation.

Even The Captain Commander's Bankai that Aizen was terrified of enough to make a Hollow just to seal his abilities wasn't on the level you're describing, and while I acknowledge that they are supposed to be greater than that it's only to a certain degree that we can only define through what they did rather than through statements that might be exaggeration.

We can however, deduce that both were fighting their hardest at the end there though, because Aizen was defeated at the end, he was facing permanent imprisonment without hope of parole for his actions, and Ichigo was fighting to protect his friends who would die without question if he didn't give it his all, including a final attack that completely drained him of his powers.

[gooddragon1]

I don't see any of that evidence as having any concrete basis beyond speculation.

Even The Captain Commander's Bankai that Aizen was terrified of enough to make a Hollow just to seal his abilities wasn't on the level you're describing, and while I acknowledge that they are supposed to be greater than that.

I have counter points but they've already been stated and you seem to have glossed over them. I concede because this will turn ugly otherwise (and I have a feeling you're just here to be contrary*).

*Not so certain of this now.

[Soras Teva Gee]

No longer sure. I thought that flash steps was named that because they move faster than light. I've heard of some characters moving vast distances so fast it seemed as though they'd teleported. Ichigo in his form is faster than even that.

The fastest claimed speed in Bleach I'm aware of it Gin's bankai which could extend at a rate of 171,500 m/s while the c is 299,792,458 m/s so...

299,792,458
vs
171,500

And apparently Gin was lying about that, its not even that fast. And this was the attack that took Aizen unawares.

So yeah.

This doesn't even get into my pet peeve that any writer making a claim about "faster then light" amounts to a schoolchild boast about how they are "infinity times two" better at something. Its not actually impressive.

But that's not the case here. Anime has been using the flash step for years. All it really means is faster then the onlooker can follow with a bit of stylized nonsense like afterimages.

And note if you wave your hand in front of you face you can make it disappear which doesn't say much for the speeds involved in the grand scheme of things.

[Olinser]

As per the rules stated in the OP Naruto can get all those techniques, since there isn't any rule in the narautoverse that actually prevents Naruto from trying to learn techniques outside of Wind based-ones; but in the Bleach-verse there are rules that prevent a Shinigami from taking another's Zampaktou (since Ichigo is now part Quincy he could, again based on the thread's rules learn the ability to steal Bankai, though it wouldn't do anything since the OP also states there is no transparency) Luffy also can't get another Devil's fruit; but he could learn all the C-Poll techniques for example.

Aizen's Zanpakuto manipulates the senses of anybody that sees it. 'Transparency' was referring to abilities that shut down riatsu, chakra or haki. (i.e. an 8 Trigrams 64 Palm tenketsu strike from the Naruto 'verse wouldn't even slow Ichigo or Luffy down, because they don't have chakra to shut down, or even though the Rinnegan can absorb any ninjutsu doesn't mean it will stop Kido, Haki, or Bankai abilities).

That's the point. If we're pretending they can acquire any ability that exists in the universe, then Ichigo takes a Quincy medallion, learns how to use it, goes off, steals Aizen's bankai, and wins. Hell, even Shinji's is pretty close to an instant win as well, assuming that his bankai keeps his shikai abilities.

If we're talking about abilities they actually have, Naruto wins without a fight. If we're talking about abilities that exist in their 'verse, then Ichigo wins just as easily.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Aizen's Zanpakuto manipulates the senses of anybody that sees it. 'Transparency' was referring to abilities that shut down riatsu, chakra or haki. (i.e. an 8 Trigrams 64 Palm tenketsu strike from the Naruto 'verse wouldn't even slow Ichigo or Luffy down, because they don't have chakra to shut down, or even though the Rinnegan can absorb any ninjutsu doesn't mean it will stop Kido, Haki, or Bankai abilities).

That's the point. If we're pretending they can acquire any ability that exists in the universe, then Ichigo takes a Quincy medallion, learns how to use it, goes off, steals Aizen's bankai, and wins. Hell, even Shinji's is pretty close to an instant win as well, assuming that his bankai keeps his shikai abilities.

If we're talking about abilities they actually have, Naruto wins without a fight. If we're talking about abilities that exist in their 'verse, then Ichigo wins just as easily.

If there's no transparency in mechanics then Luffy can probably beat Kyoka Suigetsu with Observation Haki. For example "oh punch here its an illusion, sword comes from behind instead" and act accordingly. Can't fool a sense that doesn't exist in your own universe.

At anything even loosely potentially from the universe in true munchkin abuse, Luffy uses Blackbeard's trick, eats the Pika Pika no Mi too, and is now invincible to boot. And even aside from absuing DF at speculative max he could go with toe to toe with guys that cut mountains in a swing, tilt islands, or are living ice ages and volcanoes... on sheer badass alone.

[DiscipleofBob]

The POINT is that he doesn't have anything other than Wind, and without serious training, he won't (and will never learn all 5 - we just don't know which ones he CAN learn). Are we going to give him a Rinnegan or Sharingan because it 'could' happen?

Are we going to let Ichigo have any Bankai shown in the story because the Quincy have something that can steal Bankai? Or use any Kido shown, even though he hasn't yet used a single Kido ability? Or give him a Hogyuko, Aizen style?

Or Luffy have a 2nd Devil Fruit power because Blackbeard managed to steal Whitebeard's and add it to his own?

If so, then Ichigo takes Aizen's Zanpakuto, and wins. Period.

Yes, these are ALL viable options. Eye transplants are a thing in the Narutoverse, so getting a Sharingan or Rinnegan is a possibility. Because we don't know HOW Blackbeard managed a 2nd Devil Fruit, it is still an (albeit unlikely) possibility that others could get more than one Devil Fruit as well. I hadn't even thought about the potential of the Bankai stealing Quincy items, but that's admittedly a possibility. Fullbrings too, for that matter, are stated to be able to be transferred to other people. Though Aizen's Bankai was never shown, and the Shikai only works if the opponent views it being released, so I'm not certain it would help much here.

Remember, the initial scenario ENCOURAGES ridiculous amounts of preparation and abuse of in-universe mechanics, because frankly in the actual stories, the characters aren't going anywhere but up.

[Frozen_Feet]

Kubo has never claimed anyone in Bleach to be faster than light, and Shunpo is not teleportation - both are examples of fan exaggeration.

Still, Ichigo in his Super-Hollow form or Final-Getsuga form is on another level entirely than either Naruto or Luffy. As noted, when his Hollow form peaked, he stopped what amounts to a nuclear warhead with his bare hands. That was weaker than his ultimate form.

Sure, Naruto's breadth of superpowers, as per limits of the thread, is over nine thousand! But once you add Kido to the mix, Ichigo doesn't come off much worse. One of the two confirmed cases of teleportation in Bleach involved a spell, Jinkanteishi, that could transcend time and space.

[Starwulf]

Kubo has never claimed anyone in Bleach to be faster than light, and Shunpo is not teleportation - both are examples of fan exaggeration.

Still, Ichigo in his Super-Hollow form or Final-Getsuga form is on another level entirely than either Naruto or Luffy. As noted, when his Hollow form peaked, he stopped what amounts to a nuclear warhead with his bare hands. That was weaker than his ultimate form.

Sure, Naruto's breadth of superpowers, as per limits of the thread, is over nine thousand! But once you add Kido to the mix, Ichigo doesn't come off much worse. One of the two confirmed cases of teleportation in Bleach involved a spell, Jinkanteishi, that could transcend time and space.

I think you may be forgetting of the Hirashin no Jutsu that is specifically a Time/Space Jutsu, allowing the user to teleport near instantaneously from one point to another with the use of a special tri-pronged Kunai with a seal on it. Naruto's father, Minato aka The Yellow Flash demolished an entire army in the span of minutes using this jutsu. He was given an SS-rank in the Bingo books as "Flee on Sight".

[Frozen_Feet]

Jikanteishi, meanwhile, halts time over an area, and can transport everything within that area, including active spell effects, to another location. That single ability trumps pretty much all time-space-jutsu seen in Naruto.

EDIT: Also, when it comes to triumphing an army: Aizen was strong enough to almost single-handedly win over Captains of Gotei 13; said Captains represent majority of the whole organization's military might. Ichigo, after his Dangai training, could curb-stomp this guy. And we're talking about piling additional power-ups on him!

Ichigo, as per rules of this thread, is on a level where he's vaporizing hills by accident. Which is infact what he's shown doing when he fights Aizen.

[Flickerdart]

Vaporizing hills isn't even moderately impressive in Naturo; a whole bunch of random guys who aren't even the main characters do lots of that.

[Frozen_Feet]

You should put the two comics side by side. Bleach was already comparable to Naruto in terms of blowing the landscape up since the Soul Society art. The scene I'm referring to as "vaporizing hills" tops that. Ichigo blocks Aizen's blows, and just like that, landmarks quite a distance from them are reduced to nothing. No rubble, no nothing. Bijuu bombs, Shinra Tensei and Deidara's not-quite-nuke are the only things in Naruto that approach that kind of destruction. And those are quite deliberate, ultimate-technique style feats. Ichigo is just blocking.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe the correct answer is Luffy, as he is the weakest. They are all set in shounen world's where the underdog heroically overcomes better opponents, so it is only logical that the weakest one wins.

[Macros]

I believe the correct answer is Luffy, as he is the weakest. They are all set in shounen world's where the underdog heroically overcomes better opponents, so it is only logical that the weakest one wins.

You might be onto something here. :smallwink:

[Sotharsyl]

I think the answer to this one is not Luffy, both the Naruto and Bleach Universe have their share of illusionist characters those who use powers to target the mind, in their respective universe counters have been developed but for Luffy it would be the first time dealing with these kind of subtle powers if he were say paralysed for 5 seconds that would be enough to behead him.

[Frozen_Feet]

Not to mention, mind-affecting abilities have historically been Luffy's Achilles' Heel.

[Sith_Happens]

That's the point. If we're pretending they can acquire any ability that exists in the universe, then Ichigo takes a Quincy medallion, learns how to use it, goes off, steals Aizen's bankai, and wins. Hell, even Shinji's is pretty close to an instant win as well, assuming that his bankai keeps his shikai abilities.

Assuming "no transparency" means both that the tricks for countering genjutsu don't apply to Kyoka Suigetsu and that Naruto can't sense spirit energy, I indeed see no other feasible way for him to beat it. Sakanade would barely slow him down though, seeing as Kabuto was able to fight while under a jutsu that changes which nerves signal which muscles. "Everything I'm seeing is actually a mirror image" is a piece of cake compared to that.

[Cespenar]

Six Paths of Naruto?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think the answer to this one is not Luffy, both the Naruto and Bleach Universe have their share of illusionist characters those who use powers to target the mind, in their respective universe counters have been developed but for Luffy it would be the first time dealing with these kind of subtle powers if he were say paralysed for 5 seconds that would be enough to behead him.

Observation Haki.

Since its a precognitive sense that works on mundane feats not some respective spiritual energy (Haki itself is a rare ability in OP) unlike Naruto/Bleach so.... Luffy is actually the strongest here against illusions since he can see what's going to happen before it does and act accordingly. He doesn't have to pierce them he can simply ignore them outright.

Now something more suggestion based might do better since Luffy does fall comically for hypnotism... but its hard to judge where comedy and seriousness ends in OP. Which had a pervert nose bleed as a medical emergency afterall. Also we haven't seen any hypnotists since the timeskip to see how it works now.

Of course on good old heroic willpower Luffy has actually weaponized his.


Six Paths of Naruto?

With arms lined with Sharingan to use for Izanagi save-scumming.

People are focusing too much on raw power here, need to think outside the box more.

[Traab]

Vaporizing hills isn't even moderately impressive in Naturo; a whole bunch of random guys who aren't even the main characters do lots of that.

This. Remember the naruto versus orochimaru fight? 4 tailed beast ball shattered three of his ultimate defenses and created a crater larger than karakura town. Or whatever ichigos home is called. That was at 4 tails. Or how about what pein did at the start of their showdown? He pretty much literally oneshot an entire village, reducing most of it to less than rubble. Since eye transplants ARE allowed, naruto could be doing that himself, AND having all 5 basic elements. He could literally create a gravitational singularity, and create an effing MOON that sucks ichigo and luffy into it like a black hole, smashing them under thousands of tons of rock.

Then we bring in fuinjutsu and HOLY *^%*&^% are they screwed. We already see insanely strong barriers that can block pretty much anything, seals that can tear your soul out and have it devoured by a death god. (Honestly, I wonder how that would work against ichigo) Seals that can contain and later release attacks, Explosive tags, storage seals that could literally hold anything from any elemental attack, to any weapon, to poison gas or acid. Hell, I bet naruto could use one of those bijuu seals and lock them away in a freaking teapot or something.

If naruto can theoretically learn any jutsu, how about this for a game changer? Orochimarus body barf technique. Even if ichigo or luffy get a lucky lethal hit in on him, /BLARRRRGH! And there is a fully healed naruto, ready to go again. Yeah it isnt really spammable, but its still a virtual reset button on someone who has kage level reserves by himself, AND nature chakra, AND kyuubi juice.

[maximus25]

What happens when Ichigo dies, though?

Does he go back to the Soul Society and gate back to the moon, "Hey guys what did I miss?"

See, it's like the Goku vs Superman fight. Goku's universe has a revolving door policy on the afterlife, and Ichigo is basically the same.

He'll just keep coming back, while he just has to kill Naruto or Luffy once.


But he probably wouldn't die anyway. If we're talking his peak, that would be his final fight against Aizen, which is where he destroys a mountain range by just blocking one sword strike. Without even trying.

Now that he has his Quincy powers, he's even stronger. He could steal Gin's Bankai and lolonecut matter disintegration poison.

Even if they figured out how to kill him, he could just go full hollow mode and destroy them. His Cero would annihilate Luffy and Naruto.

[DiscipleofBob]

What happens when Ichigo dies, though?

Does he go back to the Soul Society and gate back to the moon, "Hey guys what did I miss?"

See, it's like the Goku vs Superman fight. Goku's universe has a revolving door policy on the afterlife, and Ichigo is basically the same.

He'll just keep coming back, while he just has to kill Naruto or Luffy once.


Addressed in the OP. One of the rules forbids getting killed and coming back. It counts as a loss.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not really, so far nobody who has died in Shinigami/hollow form has returned after being killed in that state, heck they treat a all deaths as final. Even if we assume that a dead shinigami's soul return to the flow of souls for reincarnation we don't know how long it takes and it would be a completely different soul for what we know (the theory that Ichigo might have been Kaien was jossed when it was revealed he was his uncle).

Meanwhile Naruto does have a revolving door in the form of the 6 paths.

[Traab]

Not really, so far nobody who has died in Shinigami/hollow form has returned after being killed in that state, heck they treat a all deaths as final. Even if we assume that a dead shinigami's soul return to the flow of souls for reincarnation we don't know how long it takes and it would be a completely different soul for what we know (the theory that Ichigo might have been Kaien was jossed when it was revealed he was his uncle).

Meanwhile Naruto does have a revolving door in the form of the 6 paths.

And even if he COULD come back, that would only happen once before naruto uses fuinjutsu to seal his soul in a handy object and leave him trapped on the moon or wherever this place is forever.

[Somewhere]

Going by the current rules of Bleach, Ichigo would probably be split apart after death. The shinigami part should be starting, or entering the queue for, reincarnation on the living side. The human part should be sticking around waiting for a shinigami to perform konsou on it and in the meantime risk torturing itself into a hollow. The hollow part... if he isn't killed by a zanpakutou, that part should be destroyed and contribute to the global soul unbalancing? And now I don't even know what would happen with the Quincy part.

---

Still going with the pump out clones -> spread them out -> spam Temple of Nirvana plan. Its range is the ill-defined 'all ranges'. Just keep targeting the area after the battle starts, even if Kyouka Suigetsu makes you think Ichigo's a buddy, or not even there. Izanagi save-scumming and Hashirama cells (so easily found apparently!) provides the backup opportunities and longevity. Either Luffy and Ichigo fall asleep eventually, or their concentration will at least split the whole time resisting the bombardment of sleepy feathers.

Now, the min-max Naruto could've sought out the various clans and somehow persuade them to teach their hidden techniques (the ones that aren't restricted by bloodline but instead just plain ol' secrecy) and cheat the learning with clone training. Because putting the clone training cheat in the same world as 'things which can be learned without genetic restriction' is just asking for it.
Get something to cast shadows about the place (I dunno, make a mini-moon to hover over the place or something). Pump out more clones and have them spam the Nara shadow techniques. Keep abusing Naruto's clones for multiple actions in a time period to attempt to deny the enemies' own actions.

And in the meantime throw out some direct attacks every now and then for attention. Because Naruto has the spare actions.

[Fan]

What happens when Ichigo dies, though?

Does he go back to the Soul Society and gate back to the moon, "Hey guys what did I miss?"

See, it's like the Goku vs Superman fight. Goku's universe has a revolving door policy on the afterlife, and Ichigo is basically the same.

He'll just keep coming back, while he just has to kill Naruto or Luffy once.


But he probably wouldn't die anyway. If we're talking his peak, that would be his final fight against Aizen, which is where he destroys a mountain range by just blocking one sword strike. Without even trying.

Now that he has his Quincy powers, he's even stronger. He could steal Gin's Bankai and lolonecut matter disintegration poison.

Even if they figured out how to kill him, he could just go full hollow mode and destroy them. His Cero would annihilate Luffy and Naruto.

DBZ.. doesn't have a revolving door policy without Dragon Balls being used. In fact, even in GT this remains true.

In Bleach they also don't have a revolving door policy as NO ONE who has actually died has ever come back, it's just been regeneration from things that SHOULD have killed them.

Also, I feel that people are underrating Luffy here characters Luffy has beaten, and he himself have destroyed entire islands with mountains as one of their defining features.

However, he's not even nearly fast enough to keep up with Ichigo.

Also, the Kunai technique is limited by A: How many of the seal tagged Kunai you are carrying, and B: How fast the kunai can go by merit of it's design and material. Here's a hint: It's slower than Mach 10. The seal would ignite and burn up before you could use it at Mach 10, given what Kunai tags are typically written on.

HOWEVER, that aside. With recent chapter feats Naruto is around Mach 28-32, going by his ability to evade the Bijuu Bomb from the Juubi that crossed a seven KM mountain range in the span of 2 seconds, the range is given for a generous interpretation of the distance crossed in the mountain range.

He wins by speed blitzing, assuming he can see Ichigo.

Though my knowledge of one piece feats is apparently lacking

[Radar]

Regretably I'm not familiar with One Piece, but if we are talking full munchkin mode, then there are still a few details left out:

1. Bleach-verse: whatever the two main mad scientists could come up with including heavy body modification, regeneration serum and Hōgyoku, which can amplify person's durability and regenerative abilities even further. It almost reaches Dragonball Z levels of healing factor, where limb loss or decapitation is but a flash wound and easily repaired (at least, when you are the bad guy). In terms of survivability it will be very hard to top that.

2. Naruto-verse: not only eyes can be grafted. As was proven with Yamamoto and Danzo, other bloodline limited abilities can be grafted as well (even if most test-subject turn out dead or worse). This opens quite a few additional options, although most of them aren't as high on the power scale as Rinnegan and Sharingan. Granted, most of those wouldn't put a dent in tricked out Ichigo, but Particle Style might do the trick (if it connects obviously). Also Tobi's ability to be intangible or Suigetsu's ability to change into water at will would come in handy.
Besides, this is the universe where you can go crazy with template stacking considering all the weird medical experiments that somehow worked. It was never clearly stated, but Hidan's immortality was most likely aquired, so it's fair game as well. The only flaw he had, was his inability to put himself back together if diced, but Naruto can form hands out of Nine Tails chakra.
Also: Treasured Tools of the Sage of the Six Paths or Sword of Totsuka might be able to seal even the most powerful people away if only Naruto menages to connect an attack and all this is before you start tinkering with the idea of fusing all tailed beasts together.

In essence we have two monsters, who can only be killed by point blank annihilation, which both of them could in theory deliver.

[Fan]

Regretably I'm not familiar with One Piece, but if we are talking full munchkin mode, then there are still a few details left out:

1. Bleach-verse: whatever the two main mad scientists could come up with including heavy body modification, regeneration serum and Hōgyoku, which can amplify person's durability and regenerative abilities even further. It almost reaches Dragonball Z levels of healing factor, where limb loss or decapitation is but a flash wound and easily repaired (at least, when you are the bad guy). In terms of survivability it will be very hard to top that.

2. Naruto-verse: not only eyes can be grafted. As was proven with Yamamoto and Danzo, other bloodline limited abilities can be grafted as well (even if most test-subject turn out dead or worse). This opens quite a few additional options, although most of them aren't as high on the power scale as Rinnegan and Sharingan. Granted, most of those wouldn't put a dent in tricked out Ichigo, but Particle Style might do the trick (if it connects obviously). Also Tobi's ability to be intangible or Suigetsu's ability to change into water at will would come in handy.
Besides, this is the universe where you can go crazy with template stacking considering all the weird medical experiments that somehow worked. It was never clearly stated, but Hidan's immortality was most likely aquired, so it's fair game as well. The only flaw he had, was his inability to put himself back together if diced, but Naruto can form hands out of Nine Tails chakra.
Also: Treasured Tools of the Sage of the Six Paths or Sword of Totsuka might be able to seal even the most powerful people away if only Naruto menages to connect an attack and all this is before you start tinkering with the idea of fusing all tailed beasts together.

In essence we have two monsters, who can only be killed by point blank annihilation, which both of them could in theory deliver.

Naruto can just deliver it 2-3 times faster than Ichigo can react.

And yes, acting in multiples of the speed of someone else is a HUGE factor, and it wins fights.

F=MA after all.

[Traab]

Naruto can just deliver it 2-3 times faster than Ichigo can react.

And yes, acting in multiples of the speed of someone else is a HUGE factor, and it wins fights.

F=MA after all.

Im not so sure that applies here. After all, if something like say, hirashin applied that formula, the 4th would have been delivering the equivalent of supermans infinite mass punch with every rasengan or whatever he hit the iwa nins with. There would have been nothing but bloody mist everywhere he went.

[DiscipleofBob]

Since we're talking extreme theoretical optimization, and we still don't know if whatever trick Blackbeard pulled is limited to two Devil Fruits, Luffy has a few tricks as well...

Bara Bara no Mi - Gets immunity to slashing attacks and can separate himself at will.

Bomu Bomu no Mi - Every one of Luffy's attacks gets explosive damage and Luffy himself is immune to explosions.

Hana Hana no Mi - Can generate parts of his own body from any surface, and even clone himself.

Baku Baku no Mi - Can eat anything and merge with it. Possibly even some of the oncoming attacks.

Noro Noro no Mi - Slows hit targets down with a special beam.

Doa Doa no Mi - Can slip in and out of dimensional spaces with doors.

Awa Awa no Mi - Creates bubbles which can sap an opponent's strength.

Sabi Sabi no Mi - Can rust objects or people with a touch.

Kage Kage no Mi - Can manipulate own shadow for various attacks, but also attack the opponent's shadow as well.

Horo Horo no Mi - Creates intangible "ghosts" which drain targets of willpower with their presence.

Nikyu Nikyu no Mi - Allows user to repel anything they touch, including abstract concepts like fatigue and pain.

Horu Horu no Mi - Can inject self with healing hormones or other types of hormones.

Gura Gura no Mi - Can control tremors and create earthquakes, even in mid air.

Ope Ope no Mi - Can create a blue spherical area where he can freely swap body parts and modify things inside.

Pika Pika no Mi - Can turn body into light and move at the speed of light with appropriate force.

Then there are all the other logia type fruits.

[PlusSixPelican]

Im not so sure that applies here. After all, if something like say, hirashin applied that formula, the 4th would have been delivering the equivalent of supermans infinite mass punch with every rasengan or whatever he hit the iwa nins with. There would have been nothing but bloody mist everywhere he went.

And this is why there's a flee-on-sight order regarding him, ne?

[Fan]

Im not so sure that applies here. After all, if something like say, hirashin applied that formula, the 4th would have been delivering the equivalent of supermans infinite mass punch with every rasengan or whatever he hit the iwa nins with. There would have been nothing but bloody mist everywhere he went.

It doesn't apply to teleportation because Naruto Teleportation doesn't function like acceleration, there is no conservation of momentum, or of movement. You are simply "shifted" to that location, moving at the same speed you were when you teleported. By removing the "mass" part of the equation they make all results 0, which is why you don't see someone using teleport jutsu's to attack in Naruto.

Teleportation is not the same as combat speed, but it has certain other advantages like allowing for an instant shift in location, but your attacks and movements once you are at that location are limited by your own abilities outside of teleporting. This is supported by his fight with Madara and the Kyuubi.

Also, if it was an Infinite Mass Punch every time there wouldn't be a bloody mist, there'd by a crater the size of a city at bare minimum.

Also I'm being told that the Mach 28-32 feats are low end One Piece feats pre time skip, as well mountain range being low end for One Piece which typically deals with Multi Island / Island some with mountains as prominent features destruction feats, with things like the Pika Pika no Mi allowing SOME conservation of momentum in strikes with it being one of the Admirals primary methods of attack (Though even that is just Island level destruction).

[Radar]

Nikyu Nikyu no Mi - Allows user to repel anything they touch, including abstract concepts like fatigue and pain.
This is so hilariously abusable, since most attacks would count as touching. :smallbiggrin:

Get this one: anyone dying is effectively touching death, so Iron Heart Surge it away! He could even preemptively repel his mortality among other things.

This ability has the potential to enter into reality warping league, which might push Luffy way above merely invincible opponents.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Since we're talking extreme theoretical optimization, and we still don't know if whatever trick Blackbeard pulled is limited to two Devil Fruits, Luffy has a few tricks as well...

Its fascinating to note that Luffy has effectively the weakest DF power. The Gomu Gomu is the only completely passive fruit we've seen.. Everything he's done with it is running on pure Charles Atlas Badass.


Ope Ope no Mi - Can create a blue spherical area where he can freely swap body parts and modify things inside.

Don't forget the body/mind swaping. Bring along two hamsters, or whatever.


Pika Pika no Mi - Can turn body into light and move at the speed of light with appropriate force.

Yeah all of none, but lasers that make things explode and effective teleportation are nothing to sneer at either

Especially with standard Logia invincibility and no obvious elemental counter to use.

Must be nice for decapitation being no big deal.

Some others of crazy awesome:

Fuwa Fuwa no Mi - Effectively telekinesis. No Weight Limit. Doesn't work on people but you can just chuck islands effortlessly until they run out of juice instead.

Doku Doku no Mi - A Green Lantern Ring only made of deadly poison. More like stone melting acid at its worse. Also toxic gases.

Gasu Gasu no Mi - Gas Logia fruit, any gas. Now you are the damn atmosphere. Your opponents need to breathe well too bad for them.

[Frozen_Feet]

That list becomes considerably less impressive when you rememer Naruto and Ichigo can acquire similar breadth of ability without breaking laws of their universes, while Luffy would need never-hinted-at ability to consume arbitrary amount of Devil fruits.

Also, if we allow Ichigo the Hogyoku, he becomes de facto indestructible. Aizen survived a hit from Mugetsu, an attack that is two orders of magnitude abova a Bijuu bomb.

[Fan]

That list becomes considerably less impressive when you rememer Naruto and Ichigo can acquire similar breadth of ability without breaking laws of their universes, while Luffy would need never-hinted-at ability to consume arbitrary amount of Devil fruits.

Also, if we allow Ichigo the Hogyoku, he becomes de facto indestructible. Aizen survived a hit from Mugetsu, an attack that is two orders of magnitude abova a Bijuu bomb.

Bijuu Bomb was Mountain Range level destruction from The Hachibi, and Naruto has the Nine Tails who is an order of magnitude stronger.

I don't see how anything done in Bleach is on that level.

[DiscipleofBob]

That list becomes considerably less impressive when you rememer Naruto and Ichigo can acquire similar breadth of ability without breaking laws of their universes, while Luffy would need never-hinted-at ability to consume arbitrary amount of Devil fruits.

The potential for multiple Devil Fruits comes from Blackbeard acquiring two Devil Fruits. We still don't know how or why Blackbeard was able to accomplish this other than knowing something about the nature of Devil Fruits that we as readers are still unaware of. Therefore, the potential, however small, for Luffy to accomplish the same exists.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To be honest I always assumed it was his Yami Yami no mi, it goes with the analogue of a Black Hole consuming everything

[DiscipleofBob]

To be honest I always assumed it was his Yami Yami no mi, it goes with the analogue of a Black Hole consuming everything

That's definitely a possibility, but until Oda confirms it we can't make assumptions.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That list becomes considerably less impressive when you rememer Naruto and Ichigo can acquire similar breadth of ability without breaking laws of their universes, while Luffy would need never-hinted-at ability to consume arbitrary amount of Devil fruits.


The jury is literally still out on this one. We know two fruits is possible for Blackbeard. We also have a mention that the Blackbeards are hunting DF users to steal their powers. At the moment that there's a way to flat out beat the one fruit limit is completely plausible.

In a perfectly reasonable discussion I am the first to note this could just mean they are hunting for all DF users to have the best possible selection for every member but San Juan to pick from to optimize their builds. And that Blackbeard ability really is unique to him.

This isn't a perfectly reasonable discussion however.

And even by that standard theres still the hypothetical like what Luffy had eaten a different fruit or say could have the Gomu Gomu removed. And even if Luffy personally is screwed well he has the tools to counter any DF so it becomes a matter of which person from OP could act in his stead.


Also, if we allow Ichigo the Hogyoku, he becomes de facto indestructible. Aizen survived a hit from Mugetsu, an attack that is two orders of magnitude abova a Bijuu bomb.

You mean this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwlwj3XjrxQ) While not bad... honestly I'm not sure Bleach leveled up as much as its competitors. Course it was higher off to start with. That looks to me to be about the scale of a lesser Bijuu attack. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1eYgHkC2eA)

And for an ultimate self-sacrificing attack its not that far from what Mihawk does on a miss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2yONMr9V4Y&feature=player_detailpage#t=92s). And he doesn't even have officialy superpowers just raw sexy badasss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeik56f0tiM).

And if Luffy is say up to that yet he's getting there. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQaWUfS3wHk)

[gooddragon1]

http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/images/3/3a/Hogyoku.jpg (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/H%C5%8Dgyoku)

Got bored, sorry.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The jury is literally still out on this one. We know two fruits is possible for Blackbeard. We also have a mention that the Blackbeards are hunting DF users to steal their powers. At the moment that there's a way to flat out beat the one fruit limit is completely plausible.

In a perfectly reasonable discussion I am the first to note this could just mean they are hunting for all DF users to have the best possible selection for every member but San Juan to pick from to optimize their builds. And that Blackbeard ability really is unique to him.

This isn't a perfectly reasonable discussion however.

And even by that standard theres still the hypothetical like what Luffy had eaten a different fruit or say could have the Gomu Gomu removed. And even if Luffy personally is screwed well he has the tools to counter any DF so it becomes a matter of which person from OP could act in his stead.



You mean this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwlwj3XjrxQ) While not bad... honestly I'm not sure Bleach leveled up as much as its competitors. Course it was higher off to start with. That looks to me to be about the scale of a lesser Bijuu attack. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1eYgHkC2eA)

And for an ultimate self-sacrificing attack its not that far from what Mihawk does on a miss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2yONMr9V4Y&feature=player_detailpage#t=92s). And he doesn't even have officialy superpowers just raw sexy badasss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeik56f0tiM).

And if Luffy is say up to that yet he's getting there. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQaWUfS3wHk)

As much as I like Mihawk we are not sure of the powers of the Black Sword, it is after all the most powerful sword in the One Piece world, so I am sceptical that is just a good quality sword. Perhaps it works as an amplifiers of the wielder's powers? Not sure really.

Watching those AMV made me realize that Luffy is lacking in ranged attacks, he has to actually be in contact with his enemy to damage them and that is a bad thing as his battle with Magellan showed us. If the four tails cloak could burn someone I shudder to think what the 9 tails cloak could do.

Also the Bijuu Dama attack becomes horribly gruesome when you remember that despite the cloak Naruto is still a human being...

[Socratov]

Ichigo: he gets the hogyoku which is explicitly a wishing machine. Endless wishingmachinei might add. With it ichigo becomes pun-pun and wins.

[Mato]

Current caps? Ichigo.
Theoretical cap? Ichigo.

2nd Resurrection Ulquiorra uses what appears to among to 100 megaton bombs as a sword. Which currently amounts to Naruto's ten-tails, which in one attack forces Naruto to dump is full Kyuubi mode in a not quite full defense again it (technique wasn't stopped, everyone was knocked down, beaten up and amazed to be alive).

1st Resurrection Ichigo thought he was cakewalk, then Ichigo mastered his powers and was at least at a bare minimum comparable level. Then he burns his powers out and squares off with Kugo. Kugo is surprised by Ichigo's power boost suggesting it was either strong than the fight against Aizen on earth, or then his Final Form, depending on how informed Kugo is. Given the Kugo mastered a Hallow/Shinigami well enough he didn't need to summon a Mask, and augmented an unknown number of Fullbrings, for Ichigo to so royally hand him his rear DBGT Goku couldn't keep up. And he has Quincy powers, specifically Blut Vein, which since he uses Shinigami powers to attack would never turn off.

Theory cap plays the same way. Sure Naruto can pick up the Rinngan, but under the rules it doesn't absorb anything Ichigo uses making Preta Path worthless. And Naruto using Genjutsu is silly, he has zero desire or aptitude for it. On the other hand, Ichigo, by way of the Stern Ritters, has stolen every single Bankai in Bleach. Which by extension, since Aizen could regain his sword and achieve Bankai. Ichigo can complete the Moon's Eye Plan without needing a single Tailed Beast.

Luffy is there for comic relief.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As much as I like Mihawk we are not sure of the powers of the Black Sword, it is after all the most powerful sword in the One Piece world, so I am sceptical that is just a good quality sword. Perhaps it works as an amplifiers of the wielder's powers? Not sure really.

Be aware that green stuff in the clips... artistic license by the anime.

And while "possible" in the can't disprove that idea sense, there's no actual evidence of magical swords a la Ex-CAIBUR and we have things like Sanji's Diable Jamble officially being "air friction" for an explanation.

One Piece lacks thus far any comprehensive magic system to tie everything together. Haki is a rare skill and heck we can't even conclude Mihawk was using it thanks to Buggy... surviving.


Watching those AMV made me realize that Luffy is lacking in ranged attacks, he has to actually be in contact with his enemy to damage them and that is a bad thing as his battle with Magellan showed us. If the four tails cloak could burn someone I shudder to think what the 9 tails cloak could do.

Meh since Luffy can Falcon Red Hawk punch underwater now I'm not sure fire is that big a concern to him anymore. And his durablity is just crazy as shown by fighting Magellan among other things.

I'm not even sure for all their fireyness Naruto's SSJ Nine Tails modes are actually burning anything. Little foggy there though. Seems to me that would be related to the self injury portion of the cloak and taken care of by mastery. And Kurama I think would have less trouble with wood if he was on fire all the time.

[Frozen_Feet]

Fan, look up Ulquiorra's Lanza de Relampago. It displays destructive power equal to, or exceeding, Kyubi's Bijuu bomb. Ichigo no-sells this attack with his bare hands in his super-hollow form.

This super-hollow is slightly weaker than Hogyoku-Aizen. Aizen, meanwhile, is a whole dimension of power away from the Espada, that is, Ulquiorra. Only Ichigo can even properly sense him.

In his Final Getsuga form, Ichigo tops Aizen so hard Aizen can't sense him. He is literally a whole dimension away.

Keep this in mind when comparing Mugetsu with the Bijuu bomb. Sure, the former doesn't look like much, but it is two exponents above Lanza de Relampago, which in turn is a near-perfect analogy to Bijuu bomb.

[DiscipleofBob]

As far as I can tell, the little gizmo the Stern Ritters use to steal Bankais can only do that: steal Bankai. It cannot steal Shikai. And a character's Shikai is not always similar to their Bankai.

Aizen has never used his Bankai. Any guesses as to what it might be are just that: wild guesses. As far as I can tell, there is no way to steal a character's Shikai, as weird as that seems. So I don't see for a way for Ichigo to get Aizen's abilities.

The Hogyoku could really tip things in Ichigo's favor though. But there's a countermeasure Luffy COULD conceivably do. Ope Ope no Mi. Step one: pick up a rock. Step two: swap the rock with Ichigo's Hogyoku (doesn't really matter if it's inside Ichigo or not as the canon user of the Ope Ope no Mi has already taken out and replaced people's hearts.) Luffy now has the Hogyoku.

I'm honestly not sure if that should count as breaking the initial rules or not since it's just stealing an object that Ichigo already brought into the fight.

[Frozen_Feet]

Gin tried to steal the Hogyoku. Spoiler alert: it didn't work. The master of the orb can immediately rematerialize around it, as shown by Aizen.

[ventoras]

I know this a touch late, but the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi could possibly be used to push whatever weirdness Blackbeard has with devilfruit into Luffy.

[maximus25]

Well seeing as how we can't decide, let's bring in another character.

Black*Star, from Soul Eater. The strongest character barring the Kishin,
http://25.media.tumblr.com/842579b06edb8da504970942494adceb/tumblr_mmi0r0z8Gh1r927geo1_500.png

the boy who can hit you so hard your body disintegrates,
Warning, slightly nsfw.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/f92d90f7089cc7c8d6014fe92a597b54/tumblr_mmi15dQhFF1r927geo1_500.png

he ate a soul beam from said Kishin then spat it back out,
http://24.media.tumblr.com/91a7df53abd359ff840a41eff7e74054/tumblr_mmi1c32gwm1r927geo1_500.png
http://25.media.tumblr.com/1146b9dd796052f1363eb6155ccf85d7/tumblr_mmi1d37B8Z1r927geo1_500.png

he picked up the moon's tooth and threw it like it was nothing.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/7da48c723f64b5ebcb025f30bbaac4ed/tumblr_mmi0xlgXIP1r927geo2_500.png
http://25.media.tumblr.com/ab924d3794eba908e91bdd5000182838/tumblr_mmi0yaZwKU1r927geo1_500.png

Not to mention all of Tsubaki's weapon forms (I assume this counts, since technically she's outside help but she is also a weapon. Kind of like Zangetsu, except she can turn into a human. She's no slouch either.)

I think we all know who wins.

[Fan]

Fan, look up Ulquiorra's Lanza de Relampago. It displays destructive power equal to, or exceeding, Kyubi's Bijuu bomb. Ichigo no-sells this attack with his bare hands in his super-hollow form.

This super-hollow is slightly weaker than Hogyoku-Aizen. Aizen, meanwhile, is a whole dimension of power away from the Espada, that is, Ulquiorra. Only Ichigo can even properly sense him.

In his Final Getsuga form, Ichigo tops Aizen so hard Aizen can't sense him. He is literally a whole dimension away.

Keep this in mind when comparing Mugetsu with the Bijuu bomb. Sure, the former doesn't look like much, but it is two exponents above Lanza de Relampago, which in turn is a near-perfect analogy to Bijuu bomb.

I am VERY familiar with the Lanza de Relampago, and Las Noches was the size of a large city, not of a mountain range, and given the amount it dwarfed it by it's not close.

The same can be said of Mugen, going by what it did, it's still not as strong as the casual, spammable, multi mountain buster that is The Juubi's Bijuu dama.

Which is also Mach 28-32, around 5 times faster than the Lanza going by the fact that Ichigo dodged it (Mach 5.5 in Hollow L2.).

Soul Eater isn't even on the right scale for this, sorry to say.

[Flickerdart]

In his Final Getsuga form, Ichigo tops Aizen so hard Aizen can't sense him. He is literally a whole dimension away.
The dimension thing is meaningless - since the other characters don't use reiatsu, it's merely so much technobabble.

[Somewhere]

I'm curious about how/where we got the 7 kilometers for the mountain range in the calculation of Naruto's peak speed. And the 2 seconds for the bijuu bomb to cross it. I simply don't recall remarks on time of travel.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm curious about how/where we got the 7 kilometers for the mountain range in the calculation of Naruto's peak speed. And the 2 seconds for the bijuu bomb to cross it. I simply don't recall remarks on time of travel.

So help wasn't me that Fan doing his "calculation" thing by counting pixels and working using perspective rules to find the scale and therefore time things to get speed.

Personally while that would be fine for say actual IRL footage of actual events it gets to me to be well beyond any creative intent on the part of those actually making this stuff...

[Fan]

So help wasn't me that Fan doing his "calculation" thing by counting pixels and working using perspective rules to find the scale and therefore time things to get speed.

Personally while that would be fine for say actual IRL footage of actual events it gets to me to be well beyond any creative intent on the part of those actually making this stuff...

It's admittedly not the most accurate form of measurement, but it's the best ballpark one can have in order to have a concrete area to work with to determine these kinds of things.

However, when I say not the most accurate it's because it IS on the part of the artist when they draw up whatever happens.

However, in this case in particular the characters later explicitly say "It was less than 2 seconds." without giving a specific ballpark, and THAT is part of the reason I gave it the range it was given for time. Hence, Mach 28- Mach 32.

HOWEVER, My knowledge of One Piece (And desire to read it to find out) are admittedly at the rock bottom of the barrel, but the people I know who do read it and know calc's are saying that Mach 28- Mach 32 are completely low end for theoretical peaks in One Piece.

Luffy in this case, has access to the Pika Pika no Mi, which isn't limited by the speed he can throw a Kunai for combat speed, and then he hits MUCH harder physically.

Such a this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY9Mo9CPdEM) where he drop kicks an Island out of existence on top of breaking through the defenses of a fruit user. Now accelerate that with whatever momentum is gained from coming out of the Pika Pika no Mi and he at least has the mass, and durability, to keep up in this fight.

However, this is.. all I really have for one piece as it's not my show. I do try to give all sides their fair say though.

[maximus25]

Soul Eater isn't even on the right scale for this, sorry to say.

But I worked so hard, and made all these pictures.


Is taking out the God of Madness and Fear not the same as defeating an organization trying to steal your tailed beast from inside you, or beating the guy who thinks he will defeat your version of God and become him, or travelling around the world collecting treasure?

[Fan]

But I worked so hard, and made all these pictures.


Is taking out the God of Madness and Fear not the same as defeating an organization trying to steal your tailed beast from inside you, or beating the guy who thinks he will defeat your version of God and become him, or travelling around the world collecting treasure?

Conceptually? Yes.

In demonstrative strength, speed, durability, and energy projection? No.

Does it make Soul Eater any less cool? No.

It just means that this isn't the right arena for it.

At the same time though, I really respect you more for going out of your way to find hard proof rather than going by who you THINK would win.

[Frozen_Feet]

The dimension thing is meaningless - since the other characters don't use reiatsu, it's merely so much technobabble.

Wrong. Reiatsu has direct effect even on those unable to sense it. Aizen's power was such that even when he deliberately scaled it down, it disintegrated both matter and soul of people around him. No-one in Naruto or One Piece has demonstrated metaphysical impact of such magnitude. In Naruto, imprisoning souls is a big feat. Bleach goes from that to destroying them or making them dance polka.

[Fan]

Wrong. Reiatsu has direct effect even on those unable to sense it. Aizen's power was such that even when he deliberately scaled it down, it disintegrated both matter and soul of people around him. No-one in Naruto or One Piece has demonstrated metaphysical impact of such magnitude. In Naruto, imprisoning souls is a big feat. Bleach goes from that to destroying them or making them dance polka.

However, that just gives them strength in a different arena, not a better fighting chance in an Arena where everyone is at these theoretical heights.

It means that they will have to be working at a certain level to even approach Bleach characters, and anything beneath it they don't even have to raise a finger to touch.

[Frozen_Feet]

Then I argue Luffy and Naruto are just too short for this ride. Spiritual power can only reliably be countered by spiritual power, and under Bob's non-transparency clause, we must assume Naruto and Luffy still have essentially human souls. This means they'll simply cease to exist if Ichigo brings his Reiatsu down on them.

[Fan]

Then I argue Luffy and Naruto are just too short for this ride. Spiritual power can only reliably be countered by spiritual power, and under Bob's non-transparency clause, we must assume Naruto and Luffy still have essentially human souls. This means they'll simply cease to exist if Ichigo brings his Reiatsu down on them.

Correction. Reiatsu exerts a certain amount of pressure that does damage to things around it constantly when exerted as a conscious force.

Anyone who can resist this force can stand up to the Reiatsu in question. It is not a spiritual force because rocks do not have souls in the physical world, and they were only destroyed by Aizen level spiritual pressure that no one else could detect. This is an example of purely physical force being exerted by the spiritual energy, and proof positive that it is not a direct soul based attack.

It is a matter of the materials in question not being durable enough to resist the forces applied to them, not a matter of soul pressure being applied through the body directly to the soul.

[Starwulf]

Then I argue Luffy and Naruto are just too short for this ride. Spiritual power can only reliably be countered by spiritual power, and under Bob's non-transparency clause, we must assume Naruto and Luffy still have essentially human souls. This means they'll simply cease to exist if Ichigo brings his Reiatsu down on them.

Doesn't the OP state that they can harm each other, they just can't nullify their respective power(I'm imagining this was in respect to stuff like the Byakugans ability to close off Tenketsu spots to eliminate a persons ability to use Chakra). It wouldn't make a lick of sense for the OP to start the topic only for it to be nullified by your odd idea that only "Spirital Power can damage a spirit". While true in the shows canon, in this fight I'd imagine Chakra users and Devil Fruit users can inflict damage on Ichigo just as though they were wielding spiritual power.

[Red_Lava]

Ichigo in his Final Getsuga form destroys his competition pretty thoroughly.

But Ichigo sucks ass at everything!

[Flickerdart]

The OP explicitly states that Ichigo is a physical creature for the purpose of the battle, so damaging him won't be a problem.

[Frozen_Feet]

Luffy and Naruto don't need spiritual power to harm Ichigo - physical force is enough to damage spirits in Bleach. What I'm questioning is whether they have appreciable defences against metaphysical threats. Immense Reiatsu is the most immediate threat, but Ichigo might as well shunt them out of their bodies with Urahara's pimp cane.

Fan, you are forgetting a scene where Aizen strolls through Karakura town and a man approaches him. The pavement and other inanimate things are undamaged by Aizen's presence, but the man is disintegrated. Aizen makes it pretty clear it was the soul that gave up.

[Somewhere]

Reiatsu shouldn't protect Ichigo from being put to sleep though, no?

[Frozen_Feet]

That I don't know. I faintly recall Shinigami do not follow a normal sleep rhythm, but they are physically capable of sleep. On the other hand, Ichigo's body has moved autonomously while unconscious and apparently dead. Assuming no surprise Hollow resurgence or Kido as a counter, Genjutsu should be able to affect Ichigo.

[Fan]

That I don't know. I faintly recall Shinigami do not follow a normal sleep rhythm, but they are physically capable of sleep. On the other hand, Ichigo's body has moved autonomously while unconscious and apparently dead. Assuming no surprise Hollow resurgence or Kido as a counter, Genjutsu should be able to affect Ichigo.

Except at another point it vaporizes rock, and at another it vaporizes a molotov cocktail's flames as they touch him.

And at OTHER time's it's been shown to have a visual effect, or environmental effects like changing the temp, evaporation water, or making the room cooler.

It's clearly a physical pressure, and Aizen has been known to lie about important things blatantly to his comrades, especially in exposition to throw readers and the main cast off.

[Traab]

Chakra has been shown to effect the environment around it. Hell, the 4 tail bijuu dama made a fairly large crater just by forming. Naruto even early on as the chunin exams was able to make dirt and rocks move just by calling on his chakra after neji shut him down iirc. Also, things like killing intent. That stuff is so powerful it may not disintegrate you, but it will make you take out the sharpest edge you can find and kill yourself with it unless you are strong enough to resist it. And considering these guys are each the main heroes, with the whole unbreakable wills etc etc etc, I think we can handwave the whole spiritual pressure versus killing intent, versus anything luffy might have along those lines and say, "They might get caught off guard at first, but it wont end the fights."

Another interesting thing I would like explained. The first VotE fight. Final attack, one tail rasengan versus black chidori. They clash head on and a giant black orb forms around them, virtually erasing everything it touches? Was that explained in the manga? Or is it just the literal backwash of those jutsus colliding?

[maximus25]

But Ichigo's reishi/reaitsu does have weight to it. Just by being near Kenpachi in the Soul Society arc, they all commented that it felt like they were being crushed, I think Hinatoro fainted from the pressure.

In the Ulquiorra fight when he went Segunda Etapa, his reishi came down like rain. I think Orihime said it felt like she was drowning.

Ichigo is leagues above them both now.

It'd be like if Naruto suddenly strapped on Rock Lee's leg weights and tried to fight in them. It might not be much, but it would slow him down a lot, comparatively.

[Traab]

But Ichigo's reishi/reaitsu does have weight to it. Just by being near Kenpachi in the Soul Society arc, they all commented that it felt like they were being crushed, I think Hinatoro fainted from the pressure.

In the Ulquiorra fight when he went Segunda Etapa, his reishi came down like rain. I think Orihime said it felt like she was drowning.

Ichigo is leagues above them both now.

It'd be like if Naruto suddenly strapped on Rock Lee's leg weights and tried to fight in them. It might not be much, but it would slow him down a lot, comparatively.

But thats ok because if naruto is effected that badly by spiritual pressure, than by unleashing some kyuubi backed killing intent, ichigo may just cut his own damn head off to escape the bowel loosening terror. Just as an example, orochimaru in the forest of death, he blasted sasuke and sakura with so much killing intent neither of them could move. Sasuke had to stab himself nice and deep right in the leg to escape the feeling. Naruto has to be well above that level of potential killing intent at his peak, since I doubt orochimaru was going full out either.

[Soras Teva Gee]

But Ichigo's reishi/reaitsu does have weight to it. Just by being near Kenpachi in the Soul Society arc, they all commented that it felt like they were being crushed, I think Hinatoro fainted from the pressure.

Frankly unless you've got a reference that its up to say cratering the ground, the force of the effect no matter how "crushing" they describe it as does mean all that much. Whether its chakra, reiastsu or haki clearly the scouter read <9000 and suicided long ago. I for one don't care what their in universe arbitrary power level is.

Master Roshi's mere 100 has them all beat, HE blew up the Moon.

Even if there's a physical effect that can carry over between realities for the sort of power all three franchise swing around its simply inconsequential next to the scale of the attacks shown.

[tyckspoon]

Another interesting thing I would like explained. The first VotE fight. Final attack, one tail rasengan versus black chidori. They clash head on and a giant black orb forms around them, virtually erasing everything it touches? Was that explained in the manga? Or is it just the literal backwash of those jutsus colliding?

I don't believe any particular explanation was ever given, no. I think it was just to add some drama and impact to the Sasuke/Naruto resolution at that point; other head-on impacts of jutsu on jutsu resolve mostly the way you think they would and don't create weird barrier-shells like that.

(So far the most useful thing this thread has done has reminded me that I should catch up on Soul Eater. -_- Also, here's a new contestant for ya- Negi, of Negima, with any magic he has seen in the series plus access to any of his contract-partners' artifacts.)

[DiscipleofBob]

I don't think the raw reiatsu of Ichigo or raw chakra/killing intent of Naruto is going to be enough here.

By that logic, Luffy can just use his Emperor Haki and one-shot them with his aura.

My running thesis is still that no one character severely outclasses the other two. It's a close match that goes to epic proportions no matter how you slice it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't think the raw reiatsu of Ichigo or raw chakra/killing intent of Naruto is going to be enough here.

By that logic, Luffy can just use his Emperor Haki and one-shot them with his aura.

My running thesis is still that no one character severely outclasses the other two. It's a close match that goes to epic proportions no matter how you slice it.

Pretty much my thoughts. While I'd like to think we can all agree the series had very distinct tiers of power to start (OP < Naruto < Bleach) the latter two I feel have more then leveled up enough to eliminate any clear definitive distinction.

Special emphasis to how One Piece while a bit more low key in appilcation is totally up there. (http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/wyh2mrbl/laserkick.jpg) There's over half a dozen blokes like that guy running around. I don't think it can quite win except by Logia invinciblity being in play, but Luffy is the comic relief he's the crazy awesome in this fight.

If I had to pick for sure then with 2/3 winding down I suspect that Naruto will be having a bigger finale then Bleach what with fighting a giant monster while Bleach will probably have a sword fight... but I'd really not like to pick. And One Piece ten years from now who knows.

Have to see what Fairy Tail gets up to to keep up the pressure.

[Traab]

I don't think the raw reiatsu of Ichigo or raw chakra/killing intent of Naruto is going to be enough here.

By that logic, Luffy can just use his Emperor Haki and one-shot them with his aura.

My running thesis is still that no one character severely outclasses the other two. It's a close match that goes to epic proportions no matter how you slice it.
__________________

I agree too about the conflicting pressure/intent/haki stuff, my main point was just that if its as effective as is said, (and it is), then in all honesty, all three should die just from the passive effects of the others, because according to the setup of this fight, their abilities wont be clashing and conflicting, so none of them have a defense against it. You need chakra to hold off killing intent I believe, you need spiritual pressure to stand against spiritual pressure, etc. So in this case I vote its all a kludge that basically equalizes out. Otherwise its almost like each person is sitting on a claymore and they all hold the triggers for each others explosive. Whoever pulls it first wins.

[Bezzerker]

I think it would be hilarious if the Doctor ended up on this moon.

And by coming up with a cunning plan involving a rock, Silly String, the rotational period of the moon itself, and a banana, the Doctor manages to get all three to sit down at a table and enjoy a nice cuppa tea.

"Jelly baby, anyone?"

[Sith_Happens]

I think it would be hilarious if the Doctor ended up on this moon.

And by coming up with a cunning plan involving a rock, Silly String, the rotational period of the moon itself, and a banana, the Doctor manages to get all three to sit down at a table and enjoy a nice cuppa tea.

"Jelly baby, anyone?"

Well, looks like this thread's over. Nice run everyone.:smalltongue:

(Actually, I'm suddenly getting the image in my head of Naruto, Ichigo, and Luffy cutting through a horde of Daleks. And it's awesome.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

To be fair given their personalities I don't doubt Naruto and Luffy hitting of really well and doing something silly (probably a food eating contest or something like that) while Ichigo just looks at them with exasperation.

[Traab]

To be fair given their personalities I don't doubt Naruto and Luffy hitting of really well and doing something silly (probably a food eating contest or something like that) while Ichigo just looks at them with exasperation.

"If I wanted to deal with idiots I would have stayed in high school with Keigo."

[Mato]

Aizen has never used his Bankai.A lot of people have never used their Bankais. It's not because their characters can't, but the author is a moron.

Shinji for instance has a backwards Shiki, and inherent to his captain status should have a Bankai. What is it? Urahara & Isshin are flat out referred to as having Bankai but didn't use them again Aizen. Why not? Etc.


I am VERY familiar with the Lanza de Relampago, and Las Noches was the size of a large city, not of a mountain range, and given the amount it dwarfed it by it's not close.What city are you talking about? O.O

Hallows/Shinigami don't actually sleep and it takes three days to reach the city inside this "city-sized dome" from one of the gates. If their average walking speed is three miles an hour that's a 216 mile walk, which explains why after running until they were tired Ichigo's bag of rag-tags were tired without any real change in scenery. So excluding the size of the buildings, Las Noches is at least 432 miles wide. That's around half the size of Texas.

[DiscipleofBob]

A lot of people have never used their Bankais. It's not because their characters can't, but the author is a moron.

Shinji for instance has a backwards Shiki, and inherent to his captain status should have a Bankai. What is it? Urahara & Isshin are flat out referred to as having Bankai but didn't use them again Aizen. Why not? Etc.

The point being it's impossible to refer to Ichigo using Aizen's or other characters' Bankai when we have no idea what those abilities do.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Besides Kubo has given himself a way out potentially applying to everyone we've not seen use a bankai. For that matter hasn't Mayuri used his bankai again?

Because its broken.

[Fan]

A lot of people have never used their Bankais. It's not because their characters can't, but the author is a moron.

Shinji for instance has a backwards Shiki, and inherent to his captain status should have a Bankai. What is it? Urahara & Isshin are flat out referred to as having Bankai but didn't use them again Aizen. Why not? Etc.

What city are you talking about? O.O

Hallows/Shinigami don't actually sleep and it takes three days to reach the city inside this "city-sized dome" from one of the gates. If their average walking speed is three miles an hour that's a 216 mile walk, which explains why after running until they were tired Ichigo's bag of rag-tags were tired without any real change in scenery. So excluding the size of the buildings, Las Noches is at least 432 miles wide. That's around half the size of Texas.

Assuming they don't sleep, assuming they don't stop for breaks, assuming that they aren't interrupted with lesser hollow fights along the way or get lost in the endless sand dunes on the way there.

Then yes, however, because there are scenes with them doing all those things in the episode while they travel then.

Assuming an 8 hour sleep schedule, and only accounting 2 hours a day to meals, and ignoring everything else. That's 242 miles.

Which while admittedly double my estimate, it's still not even mountain range level destruction, which is what it'd need to be to be on par with Naruto heights.

[Frozen_Feet]

242 miles of at least 1 mile tall structure is a pretty reasonable mountain range, actually.

[Fan]

242 miles of at least 1 mile tall structure is a pretty reasonable mountain range, actually.

Not even a tenth of any respectable mountain range.

Applachain's are 737,000 sq miles, and they aren't even the biggest.

The scope we're dealing with here isn't even remotely close to anything Bleach has demonstrated, and aside from Captain Genocide's Bankai we don't see any of them do anything even remotely on the same scale.

[Mato]

Hallows/Shinigami don't actually sleep and it takes three days to reach the city inside this "city-sized dome" from one of the gates.Assuming they don't sleep, assuming they don't stop for breaks, assuming that they aren't interrupted with lesser hollow fights along the way or get lost in the endless sand dunes on the way there.

Then yes, however, because there are scenes with them doing all those things in the episode while they travel then.A Hallow states 3 days trip. They don't sleep and wouldn't encounter anything. Nor do they eat anything other than souls. And Orhima should be carrying a lot more pots and pans for those 2 hour gourmet meals.

Also, you are aware that Ichigo's blocked sword stroke destroys a mountain right? It's literally one of Aizen's bragging points when he thinks he did it.

[Fan]

A Hallow states 3 days trip. They don't sleep and wouldn't encounter anything. Nor do they eat anything other than souls. And Orhima should be carrying a lot more pots and pans for those 2 hour gourmet meals.

Also, you are aware that Ichigo's blocked sword stroke destroys a mountain right? It's literally one of Aizen's bragging points when he thinks he did it.

A full days meals, including breakfast, lunch, dinner. Alloting only time for them to sit down and scarf it down, is generously 2 hours. They are not automatons.

It is in fact, a specific plot point that those with spiritual power need to eat, drink, and sleep.

Orihime also wasn't with them during that trip because they were who she was going to rescue.

You haven't seen the episode have you? Also, it's an Arrancar, and an Espada who was on that trip, and they are shown to eat things other than souls.

Also, Hollow.

[Mato]

A full days meals, including breakfast, lunch, dinner. Alloting only time for them to sit down and scarf it down, is generously 2 hours. They are not automatons.

Orihime also wasn't with them during that trip because they were who she was going to rescue.

You haven't seen the episode have you?So if they went there to rescue her, how did she get there? :smalltongue:

Yeah, they probably teleported right in but it's still an amusing thought picturing her loaded down with an entire kitchen to keep Yammy fed. Obviously at 2 hours, a bowl of cereal and sandwiches isn't going to work. Must be bacon and eggs, and maybe a couple cows in tow for fresh hamburger.

[Frozen_Feet]

Except at another point it vaporizes rock, and at another it vaporizes a molotov cocktail's flames as they touch him.

And at OTHER time's it's been shown to have a visual effect, or environmental effects like changing the temp, evaporation water, or making the room cooler.

It's clearly a physical pressure, and Aizen has been known to lie about important things blatantly to his comrades, especially in exposition to throw readers and the main cast off.

Reiatsu does have physical element - not disputing it. But it also has spiritual element, and judging by what actually happens to the poor people imploded by Aizen's presence, there's zero reason to doubt Aizen is being truthful in this particular case.


Chakra has been shown to effect the environment around it. Hell, the 4 tail bijuu dama made a fairly large crater just by forming. Naruto even early on as the chunin exams was able to make dirt and rocks move just by calling on his chakra after neji shut him down iirc. Also, things like killing intent. That stuff is so powerful it may not disintegrate you, but it will make you take out the sharpest edge you can find and kill yourself with it unless you are strong enough to resist it. And considering these guys are each the main heroes, with the whole unbreakable wills etc etc etc, I think we can handwave the whole spiritual pressure versus killing intent, versus anything luffy might have along those lines and say, "They might get caught off guard at first, but it wont end the fights."


The environmental damage caused by Reiatsu, as seen in the simple action of certain characters merely releasing their swords, is equal or greater than the damage caused by any known "battle aura" application of Chakra.

Also, Killing Intent is a) decoupled from Chakra and b) exists in Bleach as well. Ichigo has shown immense resistance to killing intent, as shown in his fight against Kenpachi.

Conqueror's Haki, in this case, is just Killing Intent V 2.0. It is shown to be possible to resist without Haki, with just willpower. Which Ichigo has lots of.

So Ichigo can be presumed to be reasonably resistant to "battle auras" of both of his opponents, but his opponents don't have appreciable defense against Reiatsu under the "no transparency clause". If we assume partial transparency where Chakra and Haki count as forms of spiritual power for purposes of resisting Reiatsu, things get much more even, but Ichigo still has the most powerful "battle aura" effect by far. Reiatsu does everything Chakra, Killing Intent and Haki do, and then some.

---

Also, Fan, you stressing Mugetsu is "not spammable" (a dubious assumption given premises of this thread) misses my original point: it was not about Ichigo's offense, it was about defense. Hogyoku-Aizen was hit by perhaps the most powerful on-screen attack of Bleach, and despite being completely overpowered, still got back up barely a minute later. In Bleach, he is assumed to be de-facto immortal. If we give Ichigo (who is more powerful than Aizen to start with) access to the Hogyoku, we can pretty safely presume he will be unkillable. This makes discussion of destruction-based offence somewhat moot, as Ichigo is more likely to be defeated by some sort of sealing technique. Naruto universe has abundance of these, but One Piece is pretty SOL when it comes to binding someone's spirit.

[Fan]

Reiatsu does have physical element - not disputing it. But it also has spiritual element, and judging by what actually happens to the poor people imploded by Aizen's presence, there's zero reason to doubt Aizen is being truthful in this particular case.



The environmental damage caused by Reiatsu, as seen in the simple action of certain characters merely releasing their swords, is equal or greater than the damage caused by any known "battle aura" application of Chakra.

Also, Killing Intent is a) decoupled from Chakra and b) exists in Bleach as well. Ichigo has shown immense resistance to killing intent, as shown in his fight against Kenpachi.

Conqueror's Haki, in this case, is just Killing Intent V 2.0. It is shown to be possible to resist without Haki, with just willpower. Which Ichigo has lots of.

So Ichigo can be presumed to be reasonably resistant to "battle auras" of both of his opponents, but his opponents don't have appreciable defense against Reiatsu under the "no transparency clause". If we assume partial transparency where Chakra and Haki count as forms of spiritual power for purposes of resisting Reiatsu, things get much more even, but Ichigo still has the most powerful "battle aura" effect by far. Reiatsu does everything Chakra, Killing Intent and Haki do, and then some.

---

Also, Fan, you stressing Mugetsu is "not spammable" (a dubious assumption given premises of this thread) misses my original point: it was not about Ichigo's offense, it was about defense. Hogyoku-Aizen was hit by perhaps the most powerful on-screen attack of Bleach, and despite being completely overpowered, still got back up barely a minute later. In Bleach, he is assumed to be de-facto immortal. If we give Ichigo (who is more powerful than Aizen to start with) access to the Hogyoku, we can pretty safely presume he will be unkillable. This makes discussion of destruction-based offence somewhat moot, as Ichigo is more likely to be defeated by some sort of sealing technique. Naruto universe has abundance of these, but One Piece is pretty SOL when it comes to binding someone's spirit.

Hogyokou is countered by The Zombie Jutsu from Naruto though, and he gains far more in action economy (More bodies, more hands, more attacks.), and use Six Paths of Pain to also become pretty much unkillable thanks to his chakra batteries in the form of Zombies who can transfer their chakra to him infinitely.

At theortical heights of munchkinry given prep time it just comes down to who can stay unkillable longer.

And with Naruto being 2-3 times faster, it's hard to be in Ichigo's favor.

[Frozen_Feet]

Please explain how Edo Tensei is even remotely useful against Bleach powers. The reason why Edo Tensei is such a threat is because Naruto universe is notably lacking in effects that can directly harm someone's soul, which forces them to resort to binding. Meanwhile, Ichigo with Quincy powers has a basic attack with the explicit power to harm and destroy a soul.

If anything, I'd argue Edo Tensei'd Shinobi are going to be more vulnerable against Ichigo simply due to the virtue of what Ichigo is. It would not be stretch to assume Ichigo can just use Konsou on such targets - sending grudgeful souls to afterlife against their will is the most basic of Shinigami abilities.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Reiatsu does have physical element - not disputing it. But it also has spiritual element, and judging by what actually happens to the poor people imploded by Aizen's presence, there's zero reason to doubt Aizen is being truthful in this particular case.

Okay lets see here:

1) Evidence of physical destruction on the scale of the actual attacks slung around please. I mean something like cratering the ground and the the like actively destroying the shrubbery passively. Otherwise its simply inconsequential.

2) The OP of this thread has already stated that as far as he's concerned these all cancel out. Because either everyone can resist everyone else or no one can and its just a mexican stand-off of who fires first.

3) The spiritual effects are rather meaningless between universes. Master Roshi has a pathetic power level next to Raditz having people shaking in their boots miles away and can blow up the moon. They're completely arbitrary genetalia measurements of who's bigger in universe... that's it.

Seriously you might as well argue about how Ichigo is an invisible invincible spirit and the weakest Soul Reaper could school everyone from the other universe. Its lovely but its besides the point because it applies so broadly to Bleach it ends up dramatically meaningless. There's no argument or debate, you either assume they can or you don't bother with discussion.


Also, Fan, you stressing Mugetsu is "not spammable" (a dubious assumption given premises of this thread) misses my original point: it was not about Ichigo's offense, it was about defense. Hogyoku-Aizen was hit by perhaps the most powerful on-screen attack of Bleach, and despite being completely overpowered, still got back up barely a minute later. In Bleach, he is assumed to be de-facto immortal. If we give Ichigo (who is more powerful than Aizen to start with) access to the Hogyoku, we can pretty safely presume he will be unkillable. This makes discussion of destruction-based offence somewhat moot, as Ichigo is more likely to be defeated by some sort of sealing technique. Naruto universe has abundance of these, but One Piece is pretty SOL when it comes to binding someone's spirit.

Unkillable is not unbeatable as Aizen rather demonstrated. I mean cripes we can arrange for an Aizen style immortal, an Edo-zombie, and a Logia user and they can all smash each other until I guess the Logia user dies of old age several decades later. Doesn't really mean that much to me.

And the Hogyoku isn't really definable as an attribute. If it can really literally grant any wish then why wasn't Aizen the strongest since that's was what he wanted right? Plus shows a fair bit of having a mind of its own thus isn't nessecarily controllable by any party relevant here. It did betray the one guy that seriously tried to use it afterall. Maybe it decides well Ichigo sucks it wants to be King of the Pirates.

[Somewhere]

If Ichigo is unkillable, then him being rendered unconscious counts as his loss as per condition 9.
And here I say <stuff about spamming jutsu to put people to sleep and/or incapacitated via other means>.

[Frozen_Feet]

Okay lets see here:

1) Evidence of physical destruction on the scale of the actual attacks slung around please. I mean something like cratering the ground and the the like actively destroying the shrubbery passively. Otherwise its simply inconsequential.


Here's Ichigo releasing his Bankai for the very first (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16xropWj-g) time on-screen. See what happens to the hill he's standing on? The only reason that doesn't happen every time is because he holds back.

For reference of what immense Reiatsu does to people, see Bleach Chapter 409 (http://www.mangareader.net/94-54486-23/bleach/chapter-409.html). Do note that Aizen's words are backed up in the very next chapter when he confronts Keigo and Tatsuki. Tatsuki, the only one with any spiritual power to speak of, is forced to her knees. Keigo, who has no spiritual power, is utterly clueless of the threat Aizen's presence constitutes. A few chapters later, Aizen talks of how he deliberately lowered his power so people like Tatsuki could still feel it.

Chakra has been shown cracking the ground, and Conqueror's Haki causes people to faint, but neither Chakra or Haki users have been shown killing anyone by merely being present.


2) The OP of this thread has already stated that as far as he's concerned these all cancel out. Because of separated either everyone can resist everyone else or no one can and its just a mexican stand-off of who fires first.

I already explained why it is not a mexican stand-off, and why they don't cancel out under the non-transparency clause. You're ignoring important parts of my argument. When comparing their respective battle auras, Ichigo wins, because a) he's physically durable to withstand physical effects of Chakra and b) has enough mental fortitude to ward off Killing Intent and Conqueror's Haki. Meanwhile, Naruto and One Piece universes are lacking in defense against spiritual threats. Ichigo has the edge in this particular field even when you assume the other two don't just cave in under Reiatsu.


3) The spiritual effects are rather meaningless between universes. Master Roshi has a pathetic power level next to Raditz having people shaking in their boots miles away and can blow up the moon. They're completely arbitrary genetalia measurements of who's bigger in universe... that's it.

But I'm not talking in abstract about how their "power-level is over 9000!" I'm talking about what Reiatsu is seen doing. And Reiatsu does everything Chakra and Haki do, and then some.


Seriously you might as well argue about how Ichigo is an invisible invincible spirit and the weakest Soul Reaper could school everyone from the other universe. Its lovely but its besides the point because it applies so broadly to Bleach it ends up dramatically meaningless. There's no argument or debate, you either assume they can or you don't bother with discussion.

This is a rather feeble strawman you're making. Weakest Soul Reapers in Bleach are just invisible humans. The reason why I have not brought Ichigo's invisibility up is because, while it would appropriate for him to be so, it's unlikely to matter when his opponents have precognition and eyes that see everything.

If Ichigo is invincible in this exercise, it's because we're stacking some really freaky things on him in addition to his already formidable base-stats, including a near-literal Deus ex Machina.


Unkillable is not unbeatable as Aizen rather demonstrated.

Good thing that's not what I claimed, no? :smalltongue:


And the Hogyoku isn't really definable as an attribute. If it can really literally grant any wish then why wasn't Aizen the strongest since that's was what he wanted right? Plus shows a fair bit of having a mind of its own thus isn't nessecarily controllable by any party relevant here. It did betray the one guy that seriously tried to use it afterall. Maybe it decides well Ichigo sucks it wants to be King of the Pirates.

I've only brought up effects the Hogyoku is demonstrably capable of causing for this very reason. It could have more powers, but it can be presumed to have at least these effects for the purposes of this exercise.

[DiscipleofBob]

But I'm not talking in abstract about how their "power-level is over 9000!" I'm talking about what Reiatsu is seen doing. And Reiatsu does everything Chakra and Haki do, and then some.

This right here sums up what's wrong with your argument. You are working under the assumption that Reiatsu is somehow more effective and powerful than Chakra and Haki, despite the fact that the three are fundamentally different forces. Assuming that raw Reiatsu would shut down Naruto or Luffy while Ichigo can fend off their respective forces is deliberately ignoring the transparency clause in favor of Ichigo. By that logic, I could claim that because Haki does not exist in the Bleach universe, Ichigo cannot possibly have any sort of defense against it and instantly loses to Emperor Haki. The reason I intentionally left out Emperor Haki when describing Luffy's use of Haki in this fight is because Emperor's Haki, raw reiatsu, killing intent, etc. effectively cancels each other out since they do the exact same thing of overwhelming weaker opponents with pure auras. Most Shounen Protagonists have a similar feature where weaker opponents are OHKO'd by a character's mere presence, and to compare them really is a fruitless gesture.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This right here sums up what's wrong with your argument. You are working under the assumption that Reiatsu is somehow more effective and powerful than Chakra and Haki, despite the fact that the three are fundamentally different forces. Assuming that raw Reiatsu would shut down Naruto or Luffy while Ichigo can fend off their respective forces is deliberately ignoring the transparency clause in favor of Ichigo. By that logic, I could claim that because Haki does not exist in the Bleach universe, Ichigo cannot possibly have any sort of defense against it and instantly loses to Emperor Haki. The reason I intentionally left out Emperor Haki when describing Luffy's use of Haki in this fight is because Emperor's Haki, raw reiatsu, killing intent, etc. effectively cancels each other out since they do the exact same thing of overwhelming weaker opponents with pure auras. Most Shounen Protagonists have a similar feature where weaker opponents are OHKO'd by a character's mere presence, and to compare them really is a fruitless gesture.

Even if its somehow not its not a terribly meaningful argument for victory. Oh boy there aura has super special extra effects the Kishi and Oda felt would be too grim for their manga.

Its really an Ichigo is a spirit style argument. It doesn't say anything about real ability it just says their universe has special rules that let them win from the get go.

Which is alright maybe when its a special limited ability in universe that lets the user punch way above your ostensible weight class in universe (like say Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions) but not when its just a glorified statement of how badarsed you are.

[Frozen_Feet]

This right here sums up what's wrong with your argument. You are working under the assumption that Reiatsu is somehow more effective and powerful than Chakra and Haki, despite the fact that the three are fundamentally different forces.

No, I'm talking of the effects these things causes. Reiatsu has been shown doing all the things Chakra, Killing Intent and Haki, and then some. The problem is that while Chakra and Killing Intent / Haki have been shown to be resistable by sheer physical and mental fortitude, respectively, Reiatsu isn't even detectable without having Reiatsu yourself. This is the reason why your transparency clause favors Ichigo. Bleach is the only universe to explicitly state "only magic can fight magic", and if our premise is that Chakra and Haki are not the right kind of magic, then they offer no defense against Reiatsu.

Also, I state again: no Haki or Chakra user has killed people by merely being present. Aizen has. So I stand by my claim that Bleach does, indeed, have the strongest "battle aura" effect, even if that effect won't win the fight.

[Mato]

Per One Peace, Haki originates from an individual's spirit, IE spiritual energy.
Kenbunshoku is a spiritual based Spider Sense.
Busoshoku is using ones spirit to enhance their defense.
Haoshoku is literately noted as "the ability to overpower the will of others."
To scale, a very adapt user can focuse Haki can knock people unconscious.

Per Naruto, Charka is produced by mixing spiritual energy and physical energy.
This in turn is shaped and possible given an elemental trait to produce Ninjitsu. It can also be augmented with natural energy drawn from the nearby area and when done so it is called Senjutsu Chakra. To scale, raw Chakra can be let loose like "Emperor's Haki" except in stronger users it can tear apart buildings and affect the physical world.

Per Bleach, Reiryoku is a person's spiritual energy.
Reiryoku is the energy pool all Kido/Cero/Zanbaktos pull from.
As Shinigami are spiritual beings, Reiryoku takes on the role of endurance and stamina, IE physical energy. Reiatsu is spiritual pressure, essentially Reiryoku pouring out from the user either consciously or not. When two spiritual forces interact the one with a weaker pressure (applies less force to the other) collapses. To scale, Stark and Aizen are both shown to have such an immense presence that unrestrained spiritual energy exerts enough pressure to crush souls.

Technically, all three stem from the same exact source. Spiritual Energy. Haki is the lowest form, raw under utilized spiritual force used in the most basic ways, enhancing senses, force, and applying your will unto others. Naruto's world takes this one step forward and augments spiritual energy with physical. As a result their spiritual power and directly interact with the world. And they turned it into an art form, creating dozens of specific shapes, functions, and elements. Naruto is essentially One Peace after the oceans receded a thousand years ago drying up all the devil fruit and the secrets of Haki were perfected and taught to others. Tangent, See the Legend of Kora. Lightning was a rare and elite form of Fire Bending, now it's a day job.. Bleach takes place after the Ten-Tail's destruction which obliterates the world. The world has cursed Ninjitsu, the only remnants of this forgotten art is used by the long living undead in a boiled down form known as Kido. The living world advances purely in technology while the overload of extremely powerful Ninjas in the afterlife have breached the Living/Dead barrier from the dead side. A causality of which has lead to the existence of Hollows and the necessity of Ninjas, now referring to them selves as Shinigami, to cleanse them.

[DiscipleofBob]

Per One Peace, Haki originates from an individual's spirit, IE spiritual energy.
Kenbunshoku is a spiritual based Spider Sense.
Busoshoku is using ones spirit to enhance their defense.
Haoshoku is literately noted as "the ability to overpower the will of others."
To scale, a very adapt user can focuse Haki can knock people unconscious.

Per Naruto, Charka is produced by mixing spiritual energy and physical energy.
This in turn is shaped and possible given an elemental trait to produce Ninjitsu. It can also be augmented with natural energy drawn from the nearby area and when done so it is called Senjutsu Chakra. To scale, raw Chakra can be let loose like "Emperor's Haki" except in stronger users it can tear apart buildings and affect the physical world.

Per Bleach, Reiryoku is a person's spiritual energy.
Reiryoku is the energy pool all Kido/Cero/Zanbaktos pull from.
As Shinigami are spiritual beings, Reiryoku takes on the role of endurance and stamina, IE physical energy. Reiatsu is spiritual pressure, essentially Reiryoku pouring out from the user either consciously or not. When two spiritual forces interact the one with a weaker pressure (applies less force to the other) collapses. To scale, Stark and Aizen are both shown to have such an immense presence that unrestrained spiritual energy exerts enough pressure to crush souls.

Technically, all three stem from the same exact source. Spiritual Energy. Haki is the lowest form, raw under utilized spiritual force used in the most basic ways, enhancing senses, force, and applying your will unto others. Naruto's world takes this one step forward and augments spiritual energy with physical. As a result their spiritual power and directly interact with the world. And they turned it into an art form, creating dozens of specific shapes, functions, and elements. Naruto is essentially One Peace after the oceans receded a thousand years ago drying up all the devil fruit and the secrets of Haki were perfected and taught to others. Tangent, See the Legend of Kora. Lightning was a rare and elite form of Fire Bending, now it's a day job.. Bleach takes place after the Ten-Tail's destruction which obliterates the world. The world has cursed Ninjitsu, the only remnants of this forgotten art is used by the long living undead in a boiled down form known as Kido. The living world advances purely in technology while the overload of extremely powerful Ninjas in the afterlife have breached the Living/Dead barrier from the dead side. A causality of which has lead to the existence of Hollows and the necessity of Ninjas, now referring to them selves as Shinigami, to cleanse them.

The only thing I would argue against in this explanation is the implication that Haki is somehow a step back from Chakra, even if that is perhaps not what you meant. Haki in the One Piece world is a very powerful force only able to be utilized by an elite few. Whereas Chakra is extremely common to the point where most 10-year olds can perform basic applications of it. I sincerely doubt that any Chuunin or lower rank (Typical examples. Not counting the very strong exceptions to the rule that Naruto usually focuses on) would be able to lay a finger on a Haki user from One Piece.

I do like how you tied the three worlds together. I'm sure there are holes in the theory somewhere, but it's very interesting nontheless.

[danzibr]

Shinji for instance has a backwards Shiki
A backward what?


A HallowAlso, Hollow.
It's ironic that one little typo can *totally* change the meaning.

Anyway, to throw my two cents in, we barely saw what Ichigo can do in his final Getsuga Tenshou form. He just swung once. And even before he actually went into that form he was owning Aizen, the Aizen who owned everyone else. I think between Ichigo at full power v. Naruto at full power Ichigo would win (can't say about One Piece, haven't read/watched it).

[Mato]

Haki in the One Piece world is a very powerful force only able to be utilized by an elite few. Whereas Chakra is extremely common to the point where most 10-year olds can perform basic applications of it.Hence why I mention the Avatar/Kora example.

In these style of manga (brain farting on their term) dozens of tend to people rapidly gain in power. Legend of Kora is an example of causality. In the Avatar the Fire nation breeds for benders and fields hundreds of them as a Fire Bender army. A result of which has stockpiled the earth with thousands of "unique" elementalists. The royal family holds the secrets of producing Lightning as a trump card that makes them a cut above a standard Fire Bender. In Legend of Kora this rare gift (fire bending) and even more rare technique (lightning) has become a day job. Fire Benders pour lightning into batteries to power their steampunk devices.

In One Peace, Haki is not noted as super rare. Anyone can train it, and you already see the same beginnings. It's an unexplained power of Luffy's at the start, post time skip everyone and their mother has it to a point even unnamed NPCs use it (the Kuja pirates). Emperor's (Haoshoku) is the only one that cannot be learned (supposedly) and is cited as to appear once per one million people. And there is 7 people shown that can use it already, and that's discounting people born with it but never train to use Haki. What you are seeing is the very beginning of what amounts to the Fire nation learning how to bend fire. In the One Peace world this will only continue to grow without a global cataclysm.


I do like how you tied the three worlds together. I'm sure there are holes in the theory somewhere, but it's very interesting nontheless.Isn't it? It'd be some awesome fanfic material. With cross-overs like Edo Tensei summoning Luffy or the Spirit King is actually the Six of Six Paths and Ichigo is the reincarnated ten-tails.

Edit - Hmm, toying with the concept.
It actually explains Ichigo better than Tite does. Luffy and the gang square off powerful Transformation Devil Fruit user which is a world altering event. World dries up killing off the Devil's Fruit for inexact reasons. The big bad returns and one man makes a break through in the old artificial devil's fruit research. The man, dubbed later as the Sage of Six Paths, heralds in the second age, he defeats the nearly immortal monster by splitting it up and teaching others what he discovered. Centuries later in a plot to dominate the world the huge beast is reanimated and several cities are reduced to ashes for a second time. Civilians and veterans alike swear off "magic". Fast forward some more and you've got Ichigo. He is a reincarnated ten-tails with untold amounts of spiritual power. He is a remnant of the old Uchiha bloodline, which has diluted to a point he cannot manifest the Sharigan however the he maintains the quickly learning aptitude by watching traits of it. His brain also releases even more spiritual energy when his friends are in danger, which results in several power ups near the moments of his failure to protect his friends.

Also, all Qunicies are Sage Ninajs. :smallcool:

[Fan]

A backward what?

It's ironic that one little typo can *totally* change the meaning.

Anyway, to throw my two cents in, we barely saw what Ichigo can do in his final Getsuga Tenshou form. He just swung once. And even before he actually went into that form he was owning Aizen, the Aizen who owned everyone else. I think between Ichigo at full power v. Naruto at full power Ichigo would win (can't say about One Piece, haven't read/watched it).

Except, again, Naruto is 2-3 times faster at a mach scale.

Imagine that you can move around in a fight at around 3-5 MPH. You can dodge punches slightly faster by seeing them coming before hand and learning muscle tells, but anything more than 15-30 MPH is likely going to be luck on your part simply because it's beyond capability.

That is what we're dealing with here combined with Naruto having an easier to preform OHKO and the ability to preform it faster at a range beyond that which Ichigo can respond to.

Obviously sound based Genjutsu's can't work here because none of these people are going to be "hearing" anything immediately when they're moving at this many multiples of sound.

This is a battle of 3 402.9 m / s (In Final Getsuga form) V.S. 10 889.28 m / s from Naruto.

Even if Konso is an OHKO for the Edo Tensei Zeds, Ichigo can't do jack about it because he's that much slower.

It's like an Olympic sprinter competing with a hypersonic jet with perfect 360 degree motion control, teleportation, and the ability to shut down all his senses.

Combined with, again, a multi tier advance in destructive power and range, it's not even a contest. Naruto can just sit outside the small (by this scale) range of his reaitsu, even assuming that the Ten Tails as a powerful Spirit doesn't have spiritual power (In this scenario Naruto is it's Jinchurriki.), can create a moon to seal Ichigo in from miles away, and has a soul eating technique of his own with Asura Path.

The only thing Ichigo has, is a debatable battle aura that only applies if you believe that it can't be resisted as a physical thing that effects in-animate objects as well as things that are alive all the time.

Aside from that, Naruto has range (mountain range level range), better sensory abilities (Sensory jutsu), better ability to act at that range, better speed, and better damage dealing capability along with sealing techniques that can be applied faster than Ichigo can react. Then he has Save Scumming with Sharingan, and the ability to completely recover from the worst injuries up to and including being torn in half with Tsunades Infinite Healing Jutsu.

Allow me to clarify though, I HATE Naruto. This isn't me showing favoritism, Bleach is the only one out of the Big 3 that I even bother to read and that's just to see it end because I started with it when it started.

[Mato]

Speed wise, I can't believe you're suggesting Naruto keeps up.

Naruto's Nine-tails mode only just keeps up with A's speed. Seeing how the 4th is using a literal teleportation technique. A & Naruto are the fastest ninja's presented in cannon.

During A's fight with Sasuke he was able to create a single after-image, however said image was a bit transparent.

Ichigo? Against Ginjo up to five fully opaque after-images are shown on screen. The angel suggests there is at least another 2~3 more out of shot.

You don't have to measure pixels to know Ichgo's bursts of speed are easily five times faster than the best the Naruto world has to offer.

[Fan]

Speed wise, I can't believe you're suggesting Naruto keeps up.

Naruto's Nine-tails mode only just keeps up with A's speed. Seeing how the 4th is using a literal teleportation technique. A & Naruto are the fastest ninja's presented in cannon.

During A's fight with Sasuke he was able to create a single after-image, however said image was a bit transparent.

Ichigo? Against Ginjo up to five fully opaque after-images are shown on screen. The angel suggests there is at least another 2~3 more out of shot.

You don't have to measure pixels to know Ichgo's bursts of speed are easily five times faster than the best the Naruto world has to offer.

After images mean jack squat. That you're comparing them to calc's is a joke.

After images can be a specific technique learned, or just a use of sonido / flash step to actually be in those 5 places at once for a brief flit of time.

That wouldn't even require Mach 5, let alone Mach 10.

You clearly have no actual understanding of how speed, or after images work. You can create after images by shaking your hand really fast and looking at your hand.

Now normal people can't do it with their entire body though, so that's why you don't see it happening in real life beyond single body parts.

Here's more math to show you why you're wrong:

So, lets say you are staring straight ahead, and a 0.25 meter wide person runs past. If they can move that 0.25 meter in 1 millisec, then they will effectively be “invisible”. Or about 250 m/s. Then, by the time your eye catches up, the person has moved aready, so there is no overlap.

and


1 mile = 1609.344 meters
1 hour = 3600 seconds

First we find out how many meters per hour:

(250 meters / 1 second) * (3600 seconds / 3600 seconds)
900,000 meters seconds / 3600 seconds^2
900,000 meters / 3600 seconds
900,000 meters / 1 hour

Convert our total meters into miles:

900,000 meters * (1 mile / 1609.344 meters) = 559.235 miles

Therefore 250 meters/sec = 559.235 miles/hour

so if something moved at 559.235 miles/hour it would be able to create as many after images as it wanted because your eye would be lagging behind it so much that you'd be seeing them in a different place with no overlap.

This would effectively be maintaining "Infinite" After images mind you, and someone doesn't even need Mach 1 to do that. This of course changes with bigger objects because it takes longer for the object to pass you, and thus it would take something going MUCH faster at larger sizes with every increment you increased it by.

Also, angle.

[maximus25]

Remember the good old days, when Ichigo's whole shtick was being the fastest Shinigami?

Now he can barely compare to Naruto who, although being admittedly very powerful, is just a normal boy. Whereas Ichigo is an immortal god of death.

How the mighty have fallen.

[Somewhere]

Although Kubo does his best to remove the mystique of shinigami, by making them dead people who've trained at an academy and received a sword made by one particular dead person. As well as his best to further complicate Ichigo's makeup, as he is now part dead person, part different tortured dead person modified from yet another dead person, part some other living person turned into a doll, and part elf (what, I like the Quincies are elves joke from the Bleach thread).

Oh, yea, does Ichigo need to breathe in order to stay conscious?

[Mato]

You clearly have no actual understanding of how speed, or after images work. You can create after images by shaking your hand really fast and looking at your hand.

So, lets say you are staring straight ahead, and a 0.25 meter wide person runs past. If they can move that 0.25 meter in 1 millisec, then they will effectively be “invisible”. Or about 250 m/s. Then, by the time your eye catches up, the person has moved aready, so there is no overlap.Exactly!

Naruto's top speed can be seen as flash of orange. So he is slower than the maximum your eye can see. A's speed is a blurry hand trick and even Lee without weights and several Charka Gates opened didn't become more than a blurry black line. Even the puff of smoke vanish is noted as a special technique rather than anything related to speed. Ninjas in Naruto are not really that fast. So whatever you're coming up with is incorrect and in contradiction of the source material. It sounds nice, but just doesn't hold up.

Ichigo does an easy 5 clone trick with no visible movement between each as a feint. He goes from zero to more than five-hundred miles an hour and to zero a half dozen times in less than a single second. You see him when he is stationary but not when he is moving which creates those blur-less opaque copies. Not only does this mean he is so fast you can't see flashes of color like Naruto but he accelerates and decelerates several times in the time it takes your eye to process even a single frame.

[Bezzerker]

The only issue with the logic in estimating the speed based on what is shown is that what we as the audience sees, is likely what the other combatant that is fighting sees as well.

I have watched/read very little of either Naruto or Bleach, but the training between the two is very different as far as I can tell.

In Bleach, the Shinigami are more swordsmen. In training for them, they would more likely train to spot the muscle tells of the opponent, as the sword will not go anywhere without the user moving it there. Generally, this would mean reaction times are geared to watching the slower body than the faster blade.

In Naruto by contrast, a ninja's body is their weapon. They train to be incredibly fast in all aspects, including in their seals. Thus, your opponent's muscle tells will usually be that much harder to spot, unless you have a comparable reaction time. This doesn't include that Naruto ninjas would also likely be trained to be more observant than the Shinigami, as they have to contend with traps as well as their opponents hiding in ambush far more often.

This means, that Ichigo creating several afterimages against his opponents in Bleach, doesn't necessarily mean that he could do the same to a Naruto ninja.

Just my two cents on that though.

[Mato]

And really that's another reason to favor Bleach, not Naruto. The enhanced vision people (sharangan/byakugan) make special note of said muscle movement. Bleach however is full of guys that zip around shooting lasers. Both Urahara and Yoruichi display the ability to analyze and copy their opponent's exact energy structure. Urahara against a Bala and Yoruichi vs Sui-Feng's Shunko. In the Bleachverse, muscle movement isn't the only think you look at nor is it particularly useful.

And I mean really. When everything is said and done about Ichigo speed this and speed that, Naruto this and Naruto that. Gin Ichimaru is still waiting on the side lines like a trump card. Ichigo dodges a sword extending five hundred times the speed of sound multiple times. Yeah, he can dodge an incoming sword thrust at three hundred and eight thousand miles an hour. It's unreal, even Fan coming up with an imaginary Mach 5 for Naruto clocks in at a mere 1% of Ichigo's speed. And Ichigo has since gotten a lot stronger.

[Fan]

Exactly!

Naruto's top speed can be seen as flash of orange. So he is slower than the maximum your eye can see. A's speed is a blurry hand trick and even Lee without weights and several Charka Gates opened didn't become more than a blurry black line. Even the puff of smoke vanish is noted as a special technique rather than anything related to speed. Ninjas in Naruto are not really that fast. So whatever you're coming up with is incorrect and in contradiction of the source material. It sounds nice, but just doesn't hold up.

Ichigo does an easy 5 clone trick with no visible movement between each as a feint. He goes from zero to more than five-hundred miles an hour and to zero a half dozen times in less than a single second. You see him when he is stationary but not when he is moving which creates those blur-less opaque copies. Not only does this mean he is so fast you can't see flashes of color like Naruto but he accelerates and decelerates several times in the time it takes your eye to process even a single frame.

You don't seem to understand what was said.

The speed I gave is for a human being to maintain INFINITE after images. They never stop making them so long as they keep moving at that speed.

Your idea of what is in contradiction of source material, is also wrong. Like you have been about everything so far.

You don't understand math, you don't understand after images, you don't understand the source material.

The feat for Naruto is him evading a projectile that destroyed a mountain range (Going from Low -> high end Mountain ranges) in less than 2 seconds.

This puts him at Mach 28 AT LEAST. Mach 30 is an even middle ground.

Ichigo's feat is from a Dangai sword swing attack, swinging your sword is easier than moving your entire body, attributing it to his move speed is being generous towards Ichigo.

My calc's are more valid than your assumptions, and I'd like to back up my claims by offering anyone here to try and fight someone who moves 3 meters for every meter they are allowed to move.

Try it, this includes arm motions on both sides. You will lose to that person, every time.

Now imagine that person can make hundreds of himself that all punch harder than you do.

Also Gin was lying about his sword, and even if he wasn't.

Even if the tip of Gin's fully extended sword is only as slow as 120 mach it doesn't mean Ichigo is able to react to such speed.

If Ichigo stands in front of Gin, Gin extends his sword to his right and swings it towards Ichigo it's (considering Ichigo stands 13 km from Gin) 20,5 km of distance tip of the sword has to travel. So even though the tip is so fast the distance it has to travel is also huge, which gives us exactly the same time to react for Ichigo, as if he stood 1 m, 10 m, or 1 km, because t= S/V.

[BlackDragonKing]

Hm. This is an interesting thought experiment.

There are very few people in manga that can outstrip Ichigo in terms of power levels, and at his theoretical absolute power based on the fact that he has literally every form of superpower currently revealed in the universe he comes from, he's far and away the most powerful character going in there, but his trump card, the Final Getsuga Tenshou, is a one-round gun; he's got one shot with Mugetsu if he's pressured to use it, at which point he's a normal-ass human if either combatant dodged.

Naruto is the fastest of the three; Luffy and Ichigo have flash steps, max power Naruto has instantaneous movement. You just can't get around that in terms of speed. His max power is probably his energy being form, no disrespect to his Sage mode, but that has more of a time limit and the conditions aren't likely in this situation.

Luffy is in all likelihood the toughest of the three, and I'd probably give him the most creative as well. Since we are not putting a transparency into effect on chakra/reiatsu/haki, there is no level of blunt force trauma that can hurt Luffy in this fight, let alone kill him. Naruto and Ichigo are also rather unskilled but strong characters; Ichigo's predictable and Naruto's neglected his movelist, and I think their absolute power levels would still be vulnerable to this. Luffy at his theoretical absolute power isn't quite as limited; his fights have shown he can be chaos incarnate when he wants to be, and his Haki maxed out in the same manner as giving Ichigo control of his gazillion superpowers or Naruto mastery of his super mode could theoretically mean that Luffy is clairvoyant as well as having fully realized "armament" Haki that allows him to strike incorporeal beings or shatter armor without any difficulty. Ichigo and Naruto are probably strong enough to withstand the automatic knockout the King's Disposition would give Luffy, though.

So, going into this, there is a huge advantage if we're considering Ichigo as the master of all his abilities. He has his sword, which makes him the second-fastest in this equation, he could theoretically have hollow high-speed regen, hierro, AND the Quincy's blut powers to bolster his defenses, and as was mentioned before, he's already the king of the hill when it comes to sheer power output. His primary weapon is bladed, which is a weakness of Luffy's, and in a good ol' DBZ blast-off he's got Naruto's number. There are some things working against him, though; both his opponents are more unpredictable and stubborn than him, and Ichigo's got a long history of struggling when an opponent throws something he's not ready to deal with at him. He's as big a fan of just going at the problem head-on as the other two, but he's not as good at changing up his game when he can't just overwhelm the enemy with sheer power. If he gets pressured badly enough, his breaking point is lower than the other two on most things, and his trump card might actually be his undoing here, as both our other boys have the capacity to dodge a Mugetsu at their limit, taking Ichigo out of the equation. Even so, I'd say Ichigo wins the fight most of the time just because he's stupid powerful even within the context of his universe.

Rasenshuriken and Flying Thunder God are really Naruto's only hope of sticking this fight; even at his absolute peak, he'll have the shallowest "move list" of the group and Rasenshuriken's all he's got to cut Luffy up. Its particle-destroying blast is one of the only tricks he's got that's going to hurt Luffy's Haki-armored rubber body that much, and probably his only prayer of circumventing Ichigo's armor and regeneration. At his peak, Naruto can probably do Rasenshuriken without any clones, which is good, because adding any windup to it means he's all but doomed; Luffy, remember, will be able to sense his attacks coming, and Ichigo is able to keep up with him in terms of speed unless Naruto teleports and will beat him every time if it becomes a "my blast versus your blast" situation. Naruto's healing factor ought to help him be less "fragile" versus the other two, but he's in for a rough time no matter how you slice it; Luffy is no pushover in a punch-up, which is usually Naruto's last resort when all's said and done, he's too dumb to fool in some situations and too unexpectedly clever in others for normal ninja trickery to work as well on him as it would on a more normal person, and while Naruto can heal off a lot of things at this point, he is kinda more vulnerable to a straight-up knockout punch that manages to connect than the other two, and even at his best, Naruto's unlikely to have any sort of genjutsu to help him out. His best bet is to bait out a Mugetsu from Ichigo, teleport away from it, and then hope he can just overwhelm Luffy with clones and shurikens.

Luffy is the least "lul powerlevel"-oriented of the characters, but fights in One Piece thrive on chaos and unpredictability. You never know WHAT the enemy's bringing, and typically an unpredictable opponent is beaten by being even more surprising. Luffy's not mister smarty-pants, but he's an uncannily sharp operator where combat's concerned, and you can bet most of the surprises in this fight are coming from him. His fully realized Haki is likely as big a factor as his Gum-Gum abilities in this fight; Ichigo and Naruto are both going to have to adjust to a foe with no predictable attack pattern and an uncertain level of reach and durability, and during that adjustment period Luffy's got a MEAN punch and some quick movements of his own. The element of surprise is on Luffy's side here, but he is going to have the hardest time winning the fight outright since he's not long on explosive supermoves compared tom making his stretchy punches, kicks, and headbutts do way more than a less creative author would imagine. Victory for Luffy is probably by knockout; stay in the fight with Haki clairvoyance to dodge what he can't tank, and then armament-Haki Jet Gatling gun Ichigo and Naruto until their brains just give up; even regen isn't going to help you if your opponent rattles your skull like a maraca with his fists until your brain goes to sleep. Most of the time, Luffy's probably going down first, but he'll give the others a hell of a fight before he does so.

[Mato]

Also Gin was lying about his sword.So let me get this straight.

On your word I'm supposed to ignore printed Bleach material.
Supposed to believe fighter jets leave infinite after-images in the sky.
And Naruto is faster then Ichigo.

I can save us both some time. I don't believe you. And I'm not even sure what projectile you're talking about. I *think* it's the ten-tails's bomb. But Naruto never dodges it so that can't be what you're talking about.

[Fan]

So let me get this straight.

On your word I'm supposed to ignore printed Bleach material.
Supposed to believe fighter jets leave infinite after-images in the sky.
And Naruto is faster then Ichigo.

I can save us both some time. I don't believe you. And I'm not even sure what projectile you're talking about. I *think* it's the ten-tails's bomb. But Naruto never dodges it so that can't be what you're talking about.

You again, clearly misunderstand everything that is said. At this point it's either ignorance, or deliberate.

I said that a 0.25 meter wide person leaves infinite after images at that speed, and explained exactly why Fighter Jets don't leave after images because it's also relevant to distance away from the observer, and the size of the object in question. For a PERSON who is within sword swinging distance at that speed they leave infinite after images.

And it doesn't even matter that Gin has a 13 KM sword because his sword still has to move all that way due to it's size, all things taken into account Ichigo would have 0.32 seconds to react before the sword even crossed the distance it needs to make up for the difference in it's size. It's hillariously ineffective BECAUSE of the distance it extends out to even giving it a favorable speed calc. Anyone who was even Mach 1 could easily dodge that sword in that time. So it is again, not a decent feat for Ichigo.

This is again, putting the sword's speed at Mach 120, and ignoring the fact that Gin out and out said that he lied about what his bankai did.

Also, apparently the site I was using was a few chapters behind. Here's a new Naruto calc from someone more up to date than me.

Here. (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18936)

Naruto has the Juubi in this, that's where the calc is coming from, but it's out dated.

To summarize, the Jubbi's recent BB is set at 160.2 Terratons, and flies at a speed of Mach 160.6 covering an area of 169828240957.578 m^2.

Or, to put it simply, a country buster.

[Mato]

This is again, putting the sword's speed at Mach 120, and ignoring the fact that Gin out and out said that he lied about what his bankai did.Yes/No. He lied when he told Aizen about his Bankai. There is nothing saying he lied when he told Ichigo. And it's true size is believably close to that 13km & 0.08 second fire time, simply because Aizen and Ichigo believed him.

What is shown his a bunch of sliced buildings and an easy three block view of hit sword hitting the ground. Ichigo does remark Gin cut through half the town (the other half would be behind him) which could provide some insight. In made up number land, Karakura Town has a Karasu River, the smallest city on this very real river is 25.86km2. So from the center, you'd be 12.93 meters from city limits. But if you want a more accurate number;
http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/images/archive/3/33/20120703142929!Karakura_Town-1-.jpg
You can try counting pixels.

Also you *are* talking about the ten-tails bomb. Naruto never dodged it. Four shots are fired, 613:9, 613:11, 613:12/13, and 615:12. The Eight-Tails blocks it, there is no super speed Naruto. And in 614:13 Naruto's long recovery on a Rasenshuriken while in normal mode gets Neji killed. That's kind of the exact opposite of a speed claim.

Instead you're talking about raw power. Didn't we already have this discussion? You kept clipping Los Noches's size with silly excuses like Hollows need to stop to sleep and eat, and then cited the size to be 242 miles wide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15203055&postcount=133). 351:5 shows a blast radius about 1/4 the size of the dome (copy/paste it your self if you disbelieve it). Even under cutting the size of the dome as you did that comes out 60 miles. Your link on the Ten-Tails Beast Bomb says it had a 99km blast radius. That's 61 miles. I hope we get to see a fully fused tailed beast, otherwise the best Naruto has to offer is a Lanza del Relampago.

[Fan]

Again, I was talking about the speed of the ten tails bomb, but as I said. It's out dated.

Also the best Naruto feat is in the Juubi bomb, which converting to Miles Squared is 65 571.0504 miles^2 area covered and destroyed, at a speed of Mach 160.6. To put that into perspective that is 2/3rds of the surface area of the North American continent. It's in the spoiler.

Please read the link, and stop throwing out assumptions.

The Naruto calc is with the Nine Tails blocking the Pre- Full Release Ten Tails Bomb along with the Hachibi.

But again, it was out done in later chapters by the above feat. In this hypothetical scenario even giving Ichigo the speed of Gin's blade (Which by the way, it doesn't. It just gives him Mach 1 reactions due to it's size.) HE IS STILL SLOWER.

[Sith_Happens]

You know, all of this talk about attack strengths and dodging speeds is starting to get old.

One word: Kamui.

Even if someone hits Naruto, they don't. Do not pass "Go," do not collect $200.

[Mato]

And I already pointed you to the manga entry where is the was the Eight-tails, no nine at all, that blocked it. And it wasn't blocked in mid-shot either. The Eight tails climbed on the ten-tail's face and fired while the ten-tails as still charging. You'll also note said post is ten-tails vs eight-tails, no Naruto in there at all. So again, nothing there on speed. Just power. And as noted, you downsized Lanza del Relampago, which is something Ichigo can stop with his bare-hand during a 1st level resurrection.

Secondly, if you're aiming for the TO side, or ten/nine+Naruto vs Ichigo then you have to deal with Ichigo's TO. All of it. Immorality/regen/blut vein/fire shield/slashes-your-weapon-instantly-trained-with-you-all-his-life/etc aside, like a Superman vs Goku fight there is a throw away ending argument that sides with Ichigo in their fundamental design. Naruto cycles in and out of helping and being helped by his friends. Ichigo is a walking rear-pull. Every time he came close to being killed he got a power boost. Later on, he does in fact get killed. What'd that do? Power boost. Burned out his powers? Invents a new power source so it can be stolen away so he comes back even more powerful. They even tried to seal him away, a result of which just let him use even more powers.

Speaking of that. Everyone needs to spam Death Battle for a Naruto vs Ichigo fight.


One word: Kamui.Has to be activated before the attack, and consumes the eye no matter what. It's even worse than the Final Getsuga Tensho as it provides no offensive increase, just a few seconds of immortality.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You know, all of this talk about attack strengths and dodging speeds is starting to get old.

One word: Kamui.

Even if someone hits Naruto, they don't. Do not pass "Go," do not collect $200.

Not quite.

IIRC that the technique while quite fast does show it needs to be activated conciously. IE you have to be aware of an attack, and Minato beat it in speed with proper use of Flying Thunder God letting him take Tobito unaware.

Given it being another emogan tech that includes a pretty decent package for tracking and perceiving attacks, but that's been pretty chump change for awhile now against the combatants we're still supposed to take seriously.


Has to be activated before the attack, and consumes the eye no matter what. It's even worse than the Final Getsuga Tensho as it provides no offensive increase, just a few seconds of immortality.

You are thinking of Izanagi

Kamui has been spammed and spammed and is Tobito's entire fighting style.

[Mikeavelli]

I'm not wrong, people just don't understand what I'm talking about.



You're counting pixels in a perspective shot, you're mix-and-matching 2-dimensional kinematic equations with 3-dimensional pressure equations. I'm not even sure where you got the pressure to speed equation from, is it still from the specific case of a Jet plane in supersonic flow?

You're assuming a sword swing is the maximum possible power level of a character when dialogue and context of the scene clearly indicates it's nowhere close.

You can't create after-images you moving your hand back and forth really fast, you create a blur. Manga-style afterimages aren't possible in real life through simple speed, it's silly to base your conclusions off of them.

Please.. Please stop doing what you're doing. You're obviously quite bright, but the arrogance is holding you back, and the time you spend here arguing is probably hopefully distracting you from studying for finals or something. You strike me as the sort of person who's studying to be a physicist or engineer or something, and I hope you do, because you'd be really good at it with the proper mindset.

[Starwulf]

You're counting pixels in a perspective shot, you're mix-and-matching 2-dimensional kinematic equations with 3-dimensional pressure equations. I'm not even sure where you got the pressure to speed equation from, is it still from the specific case of a Jet plane in supersonic flow?

You're assuming a sword swing is the maximum possible power level of a character when dialogue and context of the scene clearly indicates it's nowhere close.

You can't create after-images you moving your hand back and forth really fast, you create a blur. Manga-style afterimages aren't possible in real life through simple speed, it's silly to base your conclusions off of them.

Please.. Please stop doing what you're doing. You're obviously quite bright, but the arrogance is holding you back, and the time you spend here arguing is probably hopefully distracting you from studying for finals or something. You strike me as the sort of person who's studying to be a physicist or engineer or something, and I hope you do, because you'd be really good at it with the proper mindset.

Not going into whether or not his math is right, but you accuse Fan of being arrogant, but your last statement just SCREAMS arrogance. Arrogance and condescension, talking down to him as though he's just a simple college student out to prove how smart he is with some mathematics he's just picked up. That's worse, imo, then his refusal to use anything but mathematics to argue versus threads. While it's annoying, at least he's using simple logic and real world mechanics to the best of his ability to argue his point. You're using emotion, and bullying tactics to argue your side.

[Fan]

You're counting pixels in a perspective shot, you're mix-and-matching 2-dimensional kinematic equations with 3-dimensional pressure equations. I'm not even sure where you got the pressure to speed equation from, is it still from the specific case of a Jet plane in supersonic flow?

You're assuming a sword swing is the maximum possible power level of a character when dialogue and context of the scene clearly indicates it's nowhere close.

You can't create after-images you moving your hand back and forth really fast, you create a blur. Manga-style afterimages aren't possible in real life through simple speed, it's silly to base your conclusions off of them.

Please.. Please stop doing what you're doing. You're obviously quite bright, but the arrogance is holding you back, and the time you spend here arguing is probably hopefully distracting you from studying for finals or something. You strike me as the sort of person who's studying to be a physicist or engineer or something, and I hope you do, because you'd be really good at it with the proper mindset.

I'm in Medical School actually, did a year of police academy before I decided I couldn't be part of that system.

And you're right on the after image thing, I was being slightly disingenuous about it by relating it to the closest equivalent. If something were to move that fast in front of you though you'd experience a delay in perception and with something going as fast as say.Humming Bird wings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8s3iA4iq4I) you'd experience something similar enough with the same net effect (Though much more transparent.) with someone's full body going that fast.

It is relevant to distance, and size of the object being perceived but it IS possible.

Though if you have anyway to improve on my equations, go ahead. I'd be happy to learn how to do what I do better.

I'm not assuming it's the maximum level of power, I'm saying it's the fastest he can attack. Something like Mugetsu would obviously do more damage, and is something around a multi-city buster in of itself.

Also Mato:


http://i49.tinypic.com/w81b8h.jpg



Scans say otherwise. The Ten Tails repelled both attacks and both the Nine Tails and the Hachibi avoided the beam. Though not entirely unscathed.

All my claims are backed up by in series evidence AND mathematics.

Though up until the 10 tails Arc, Bleach roflstomped Naruto.

[Mato]

Also Mato:That was before it took city destroying shape. I didn't even check there because the Ten-Tails has less power in that stage.

Anyway. I have no idea how they got 99km and apparently still haven't paid enough attention because the linked post links to another post and neither one put things to scale. What I mean is there is a bunch of fancy numbers and you're talking A is several kilometers without any justification. Curiosity sat in, armed with Windows Paint I made thesehttp://s23.postimg.org/4v0l1bvk7/Tailed_Beast_Crater.png (http://postimg.org/image/4v0l1bvk7/)
Really just tossed in the created over the explosion for the heck of it.

http://s23.postimg.org/yyf3t9ytj/Ten_Tails_Body.png (http://postimg.org/image/yyf3t9ytj/)

http://s23.postimg.org/u2bh1kyo7/Ten_Tails_Head.png (http://postimg.org/image/u2bh1kyo7/)
The little line on the Ten-Tail's head is Madara.
21 Madaras to a Head
5 Heads to a Body
21 Bodys to a Crater
Quick google skim for average Japanese man's height is 5'5", or 65 inches.
65*21*5*21/12=11943.75
So the crater is 11,943 feet wide at it's widest point.
Which is 3.64046km.
Which is 0.036% of 99km.

Pause for thought.

Next up, Bleach!

http://s18.postimg.org/x11umxo39/Bleach.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/x11umxo39/)

No spiffy comparison there. The towers on that thing are immeasurably tall. Instead, "Las Noches is easily the largest structure in the Bleach universe, appearing as large as (if not larger than) Seireitei in Soul Society. Due to its immense size, Ichigo Kurosaki once speculated that it could be an illusion as he, Chad, and Uryū Ishida did not seem to make any progress getting closer to it, despite running until they were exhausted.[11] Also, according to the Arrancar Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck, it takes about three days to move from one spot to a gate" Which looking back on, "a spot" is pretty ambiguous. However 248:3 has Ichigo breaking through the outer wall, so she must be referring to a Gate of the outer wall. 351:11ish (depending on fan art), the original of the Bleach Image, shows no such gates however they could just be to tiny to see, after all those towers are huge in person.

But let's be mean and say there is exactly one gate to the entire thing and Ichigo was exactly as far away as he could be from it. Hollows don't really sleep or eat and so they wouldn't just decide to stop and do it despite Fan's ideas otherwise imo. At an average 3mph walking pace that's 216 for 1/2 the circumference of the dome. So 216*2/3.14=137.57 miles in diameter. The dome is roughly 3.5 times bigger than the explosion so the big boom is around 39 miles wide or 62.76km.

The second-form Ten-Tail Beast Bomb is 0.05% the size of a Lanza del Relampago.

Now you can sit there with your fancy Adobe Shop measuring tools if you want, you're entirely welcome too. I really don't think you'll come up with a 99km crater. Likewise there is zero justification for saying the three day trip to the gate includes sleeping and have you even seen the inside of that thing? Desert with dozens of huge buildings so far apart you can't even render a map with the few landscape shots you do get. But anyway, that's my copypasta.

[Sith_Happens]

I still say that this thing would be decided by breadth, not strength, of abilities.

[gooddragon1]

I still say that this thing would be decided by breadth, not strength, of abilities.

Well, it's turning out interestingly. Though on that aspect: The hogyoku. Absolutely anything Ichigo desires as an ability. Seriously. He could probably stop time if he wanted to as one of the abilities and I would not be even slightly surprised.

[Macros]

I'm feeling a bit unconfortable about bringing the Hogyoku into this. No one can really understand its thought-process, not even its creator, so I'm not sure it is entirely reliable (after all, Aizen lost, didn't he ?). Now, if it turns out that Ichigo's greatest desire is "stomp in the ground those two weirdos", okay, he probably wins. But that seems a bit shallow, as far as dreams go.

[Fan]

That was before it took city destroying shape. I didn't even check there because the Ten-Tails has less power in that stage.

Anyway. I have no idea how they got 99km and apparently still haven't paid enough attention because the linked post links to another post and neither one put things to scale. What I mean is there is a bunch of fancy numbers and you're talking A is several kilometers without any justification. Curiosity sat in, armed with Windows Paint I made thesehttp://s23.postimg.org/4v0l1bvk7/Tailed_Beast_Crater.png (http://postimg.org/image/4v0l1bvk7/)
Really just tossed in the created over the explosion for the heck of it.

http://s23.postimg.org/yyf3t9ytj/Ten_Tails_Body.png (http://postimg.org/image/yyf3t9ytj/)

http://s23.postimg.org/u2bh1kyo7/Ten_Tails_Head.png (http://postimg.org/image/u2bh1kyo7/)
The little line on the Ten-Tail's head is Madara.
21 Madaras to a Head
5 Heads to a Body
21 Bodys to a Crater
Quick google skim for average Japanese man's height is 5'5", or 65 inches.
65*21*5*21/12=11943.75
So the crater is 11,943 feet wide at it's widest point.
Which is 3.64046km.
Which is 0.036% of 99km.

Pause for thought.

Next up, Bleach!

http://s18.postimg.org/x11umxo39/Bleach.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/x11umxo39/)

No spiffy comparison there. The towers on that thing are immeasurably tall. Instead, "Las Noches is easily the largest structure in the Bleach universe, appearing as large as (if not larger than) Seireitei in Soul Society. Due to its immense size, Ichigo Kurosaki once speculated that it could be an illusion as he, Chad, and Uryū Ishida did not seem to make any progress getting closer to it, despite running until they were exhausted.[11] Also, according to the Arrancar Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck, it takes about three days to move from one spot to a gate" Which looking back on, "a spot" is pretty ambiguous. However 248:3 has Ichigo breaking through the outer wall, so she must be referring to a Gate of the outer wall. 351:11ish (depending on fan art), the original of the Bleach Image, shows no such gates however they could just be to tiny to see, after all those towers are huge in person.

But let's be mean and say there is exactly one gate to the entire thing and Ichigo was exactly as far away as he could be from it. Hollows don't really sleep or eat and so they wouldn't just decide to stop and do it despite Fan's ideas otherwise imo. At an average 3mph walking pace that's 216 for 1/2 the circumference of the dome. So 216*2/3.14=137.57 miles in diameter. The dome is roughly 3.5 times bigger than the explosion so the big boom is around 39 miles wide or 62.76km.

The second-form Ten-Tail Beast Bomb is 0.05% the size of a Lanza del Relampago.

Now you can sit there with your fancy Adobe Shop measuring tools if you want, you're entirely welcome too. I really don't think you'll come up with a 99km crater. Likewise there is zero justification for saying the three day trip to the gate includes sleeping and have you even seen the inside of that thing? Desert with dozens of huge buildings so far apart you can't even render a map with the few landscape shots you do get. But anyway, that's my copypasta.

You continue to not read, so..



http://i.imgur.com/iNVIIto.png

there are a bunch of rocks launched, decided to use this one, there are 2 bigger ones, but they look weird and using smaller one is a safer low-end

will treat it as an ellipsoid

369 px (red diameter line) = 328.81 km

11 px = 11/369*328.81 = 9.80 km
5.5 px = 5.5/369*328.81 = 4.9 km

Volume = 4/3*pi*(9800/2)*(4900/2)^2 = 123201744700.73 m^3

Mass = 123201744700.73*2700 = 332644710691971 kg

80 px = 80/369*328.81 = 71.2867 km - launched rock altitude

PE = 332644710691971*9.81*71287 = 232626918647676644801 J

cross-section area (ellipse) = pi*A*B = pi*(9800/2)*(4900/2) = 37714820 m^2

J/m^2 = 232626918647676644801 / 37714820 = 6168050613729 J/m^2

dome surface area gotten earlier = 169828240957.578 m^2

Total yield = 6168050613729*169828240957.578 = 1047509185866905477553388 J = 250,360,704 MT = 250 Teraton



Naruto also has the most breadth, because as far as we can see each Quincy can only handle one of the discs at a time (We've never seen anyone, even Bach use more than one.), so Ichigo gets to have one bonus disc, which admittedly, includes Yammamoto's bankai. Which while powerful, has it's own difficulties in use and handling. Though in this scenario he OHKO's Luffy barring infinite logia loop.

However, Blut Vein only barely stood up to Ichigo's bankai, and we're talking about attacks with hundreds of thousands times more power than a Lanza Del Relampago.

Also, I did do some counting:



http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8664/bleach2402627.jpg

Building Height = 30 pixels

Lanza Del Relampago Explosion Diameter = 320 pixels

Lanza Del Relampago Explosion Diameter/Building Height = 10.667

Building Height = 530.639 meters

Lanza Del Relampago Explosion Diameter = 5,660.326 meters

Now I'm admittedly not a Nuclear Physics expert so I decided to use A little help (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html) ,(Showing people how they can do this too, if interested.), and putting it in to that I came up with

1.05 Megatons as the yield.

Lanza Del Relampago isn't even a 100,000th of the Juubi Bomb, and this is ignoring that it probably exploded on ground contact which would've increased the size of the airburst due to some of the energy being reflected giving it merely the APPEARANCE of a larger yield.

Saying the Hogyokou can do anything is a no limits fallacy, especially given that it's proven to unanimously betray anyone who uses it too much.

[Rater202]

Hello, I would like to give my two bits. If the Characters can do any thing demonstrated to be possible in their source martials, including both Manga and Anime Canon, and filler, and movies.

Starting with one piece, Luffy uses black beards trick to combine the powers of all the Devil's Fruit we have seen so far. he trains with them to the point were his abilities are at least as versatile as the Canon wielders of the powers were at their peak. Assume that he has eaten every weapon that has appeared in the series using The Munch Munch fruit. Let's also assume that he has Trained All known types of Haki to the highest level proficiency demonstrated in canon.

Now Naruto. Let's say that someone perfected Orochimaru's bloodline splicing, and other genetic modification techniques. Give Naruto All the bloodlines, to their Highest ability, as well as Kakuzu's black thread and five hearts ability, and Hidan's Immortality. Then allow for him having separated the ten tails back into the Tailed Beasts, than sealed all of them into himself. after words he tamed all 9 of them, and mastered use of their chakra and special abilities. then he used their chakra to re create the ten tails and tamed it, again mastering its chakra and use of it's abilities.

Now, Bleach: Have Ichigo use the Hogyoku to alter his hollow powers to give himself the abilities of the Ninth Espada. The ninth Espada's unique Hollow ability allowed him to use the powers and memories of any soul he consumed. then have Ichigo use The Mod soul filler villain guys technology to create reigai with the powers of all the captains, plus his father, Aizen Gin and Touzen, plus the Vizards, and the Espada. and throw in Ginjo and the Filler arch Shinigami while we are at it. Have Ichigo's hollow self eat those reigai, thus gaining all of their powers. then make him the avatar of hell again, and teach him Vollstandig.

For the actual fight Naruto would be using All ten Tailed beast chakra Simultaneously, giving him effectively and infinite amount of demonic chakra of godlike potency. Ichigo would now have aces to, in addition to his own bankai, hollow form, and Vollstandig, all used simaltainiusly of course, 19 Bankai, and 11 resurrections( I am counting Ulquiora twice, because he has two). Discounting Hollow masks and the unique abilities off individual released states, each bankai and Resurrection multiplies the weilders power by 10. So if Ichigo's bankai+hollow form + Vollstandig= X than Ichigo's power is Equal to X times (10^30) or 1e+30X. his power is so massive that it's in scientific notation. then we assume that ichi is using the Hogyoku to replenish his Reiatsu.

the combined effect of Ichigo's Reiaatsu and Naruto's demonic chakra would ock out Luffy from the get go, but his Infinate Logia Loop would keep him from Dieing. Naruto and Ichigo, boh possessing infinite Amounts of Godlike Power and Incredible versatility, would keep fighting until one of them got boared, or they realized that they were both good guys. In the event of the second possibility, they would return Luffy to consciousness and then the three of them would seek us out for making them fight. We would be So Boned.:smallbiggrin:

[The Troubadour]

Well, it's turning out interestingly. Though on that aspect: The hogyoku. Absolutely anything Ichigo desires as an ability. Seriously. He could probably stop time if he wanted to as one of the abilities and I would not be even slightly surprised.

ZA WARUDO!
Sorry, couldn't resist. :-P

You know who could be an interesting opponent for those three, if at his theoretical limit? Yusuke, from "Yu Yu Hakusho" (anyone else remember this manga/anime)?

[Rater202]

ZA WARUDO!
Sorry, couldn't resist. :-P

You know who could be an interesting opponent for those three, if at his theoretical limit? Yusuke, from "Yu Yu Hakusho" (anyone else remember this manga/anime)?

Yes, and if he had some how had the ability to gain infinite Human, demon, and sacred spirit energy, and learned every supper broken technique from his series, than he might stand a chance in my above mentioned theory. however, once they realize that they are all good guys we would be even more Boned than we already would be.

[AtlanteanTroll]

One Punch Man.

/thread

[Prime32]

One Punch Man.

/thread:smallfrown: Alright, let's go home everyone. Show's over.

[Mato]

@Fan, is that really tree in the background or just more dirt? And how did you come up with Los Noches being 530ish meters tall? I didn't see anything that could be used as a real comparison.



I still say that this thing would be decided by breadth, not strength, of abilities.Non-TO Naruto has Shadow Clone and a Rasenga. Sure there is 10,00 variants but most are punches and the newer ones can be thrown. Ichigo has his own blast, but also Flash Step, flight, & Blut. And is probably moments away from obtain Vollstandig as well. If this were D&D Ichigo already won.

TO side, pro-Narutos are give him a Sage+Ten-Tails cloak (despite not showing the ability to combine with the nine-tails cloak), Mangekyou Sharingan & Rinnegan, and the Six Pathes of Pain. Then of course every basic elemental technique and Hashirama's genetic cells. But people can resist Deva's powers, Preta by combat rules doesn't affect Ichigo etc. The Sharingan is more of a threat then the Rinnegan. Amaterasu burns fire, Susanoo is a summonable Super Saiyen, and Kamui when I'm not mixing it up with eye consuming fate-changers.

Ichigo breaks the bank. Quincy side gives him Vollstandig which is Super Saiyen II or so. Quilge was significantly weaker than Ichigo but a Vollstandig enhanced Blut is capable of totally negating Ichigo's Getsuga. Ishida's outdated version that strips him of his powers was shown to take this first lieutenant level or less Quincy to utterly dominating a captain level Shinigami. It cannot be underestimated and doesn't stop there. Sklaverei would ripe the undead bodies up and merge them with Ichigo granting him access to everything Naruto has on top of augmented his power. Ichigo would get at least one extra Bankai as yet another Quincy haxxors, Yamamato's being top choice as it provides a flame shield so hot it'd burn a Rasenshuriken away and the ridiculous flame output prevents Amaterasu from hitting him and worse yet Amaterasu would augment it. It'd also give Ichigo's sword a deletion property. Nothing can block it and it can be used to cut through even a Tailed-Beast bomb.

Fullbring side, thanks to being a Substitute Shinigami he can steal any in existence. Prime pick? Tsukishima, who in a teaser is off training somewhere in Soul Society. Tsukishima's ability has been shown that he can slice the ground to insert him self into the past just to plant a trap despite the ground coming into assistance mere moments ago. So Ichigo can obtain an entire life time of training and learn every single ability an opponent has by slicing even a simple projectile weapon used by Naruto since they take the knives everywhere and can instantly prepare any battle field with traps & support items at a moment's notice. Since Ninijutsu is a learned ability, this is a second means for Ichigo to pick up Narutoverse's abilities at the drop of a hat.

Hollow side doesn't give much. Resurrection if killed, rapid healing. It's greatest trait is seen used by Yammy. Yammy can suck up near by souls and in Narutoverse, a Nine-Tails Naruto can only slow down attempts to rip his soul out. To interrupt anything Naruto is preparing Ichigo can try yawning.

Then you have the Hogyoku. Grants anything you wish. In the case of Aizen if hollowfied him and granted him both a 1st and 2nd resurrection. When defeated it turned on him. So that'll prevent Ichigo's Hollow from taking over on defeat, but until that moment it does at least empower Ichigo and give him teleportation. In theme, it would rip the barriers between Bleachverse and Narutoverse, granting Ichigo his own Rinnegan. So like Sklaverei, Ichigo has a second way of obtaining the method to block all chakra based attacks and a third means to obtain Ninjitsu.

Also Kamui is comparable to Blut. If your not counter-attacking then the attack won't work. While Blut can be overcome, Kamui on a counter-attack is worthless and it's both absorb able (above) and dealing with a guy that from a world that uses interdimentional travel as both a bus and a prison.

[The Troubadour]

Yes, and if he had some how had the ability to gain infinite Human, demon, and sacred spirit energy,(...)

Sacred spirit energy? Is that Seikouki, the golden energy aura Sensui had? If so, I don't think even Yusuke at his theoretical peak could have acquired, since it was implied to require an inborn talent instead of just training.
On the other hand, I figure TP Yusuke would be capable of combining Reiki and Youki (so, human and demon spirit energy) and, thanks to his mastery of Reikou Hadouken (Genkai's technique), reach an energy output superior to anyone else in his own series and (I believe) comparable to Bleach and Naruto feats. Plus, Yu Yu Hakusho had just as much of a variety of spirit techniques as Naruto does, so presumably he could put all that energy to an incredible amount of uses.

[Fan]

Sacred spirit energy? Is that Seikouki, the golden energy aura Sensui had? If so, I don't think even Yusuke at his theoretical peak could have acquired, since it was implied to require an inborn talent instead of just training.
On the other hand, I figure TP Yusuke would be capable of combining Reiki and Youki (so, human and demon spirit energy) and, thanks to his mastery of Reikou Hadouken (Genkai's technique), reach an energy output superior to anyone else in his own series and (I believe) comparable to Bleach and Naruto feats. Plus, Yu Yu Hakusho had just as much of a variety of spirit techniques as Naruto does, so presumably he could put all that energy to an incredible amount of uses.

Yuske Urameshi near the end of the series had Gigatons of force just in his base punches, let alone his spirit gun.

He's also as fast as Naruto is, though he gets outclassed by Naruto when we use high end calc's.

Juubi Naruto beats him no contest, but without TO he beats Ichigo without trying.

Mato:

There's another calc that shows size, I was crossposting the part of the calc that mattered. Can you PLEASE read the thread and the corresponding links? Pretty please? Just once?

Also Ichigo doesn't have chakra or Haki, so he can't learn the Narutoverse, or Onepiece verse abilities.

[Rater202]

Sacred spirit energy? Is that Seikouki, the golden energy aura Sensui had? If so, I don't think even Yusuke at his theoretical peak could have acquired, since it was implied to require an inborn talent instead of just training.
On the other hand, I figure TP Yusuke would be capable of combining Reiki and Youki (so, human and demon spirit energy) and, thanks to his mastery of Reikou Hadouken (Genkai's technique), reach an energy output superior to anyone else in his own series and (I believe) comparable to Bleach and Naruto feats. Plus, Yu Yu Hakusho had just as much of a variety of spirit techniques as Naruto does, so presumably he could put all that energy to an incredible amount of uses.

Sacred energy is a combination of Human and demon Spirit energy. Yussuke was able to use it by the end of the Series. it was gold but I don't know if that was what Sensui had.

[danzibr]

Sacred energy is a combination of Human and demon Spirit energy. Yussuke was able to use it by the end of the Series. it was gold but I don't know if that was what Sensui had.
I seem to recall reading it was the same thing. Usually it takes however many years to learn it, Sensui did it in like 1/7 the time because of his multiple personalities. Dunno how Yusuke was supposed to be able to do it so quickly.

[Mato]

There's another calc that shows size, I was crossposting the part of the calc that mattered. Can you PLEASE read the thread and the corresponding links? Pretty please? Just once?

Also Ichigo doesn't have chakra or Haki, so he can't learn the Narutoverse, or Onepiece verse abilities.I hate to say this but it isn't highlight EVERY single time I check this thread like a bad omen something pulls my attention away. And even looking a second time you simply go from saying the building is 30 pixels to it's 530 meters and linking to a Star War vs Star Trek calculator.

Also to use Charka one needs to learn how to use Spiritual and Physical Power together. Ichigo has the first part easy enough, but what about the second? I feel there is two ways to go with this. Ichigo's badge is draining his Reiatsu to Soul Society is the reason he cannot manifest his Shinigami powers as a human. And if he is treated as being human then why not bring his human body along? If this seems like some lame cop-out, recall he was in his human body against Ginjo and even fast-timed trained his human body to endure his Fullbring so it's entirely feasible. Plus keeping his body gives him that stamina pool to pull off of and the second coolest body double ever.

The other is the unexplained characteristic of the Edo Tensei. The technique summons a dead spirit to a dead body that is apparently made out of paper during the duration of the spell and yet they, and not the caster is supplying, have infinite chakra. How exactly does that work? Is it a magical hand-wave or side affect of spirits interacting with the physical world? The latter would grant Ichigo infinite chakra, so I'd doubt you like that idea but it's there hanging up for grabs.

Also as noted Haki is also a learn-able trait and spiritually based. Only the Emperor version is unique. If it makes a difference to you Naruto's Sharingan can learn the Kido. Provided Ichigo doesn't use Bakudo #26 (Kyokko) or Noren Mekuri to turn invisible before hand. :smallsmile:

[Fan]

I hate to say this but it isn't highlight EVERY single time I check this thread like a bad omen something pulls my attention away. And even looking a second time you simply go from saying the building is 30 pixels to it's 530 meters and linking to a Star War vs Star Trek calculator.

Also to use Charka one needs to learn how to use Spiritual and Physical Power together. Ichigo has the first part easy enough, but what about the second? I feel there is two ways to go with this. Ichigo's badge is draining his Reiatsu to Soul Society is the reason he cannot manifest his Shinigami powers as a human. And if he is treated as being human then why not bring his human body along? If this seems like some lame cop-out, recall he was in his human body against Ginjo and even fast-timed trained his human body to endure his Fullbring so it's entirely feasible. Plus keeping his body gives him that stamina pool to pull off of and the second coolest body double ever.

The other is the unexplained characteristic of the Edo Tensei. The technique summons a dead spirit to a dead body that is apparently made out of paper during the duration of the spell and yet they, and not the caster is supplying, have infinite chakra. How exactly does that work? Is it a magical hand-wave or side affect of spirits interacting with the physical world? The latter would grant Ichigo infinite chakra, so I'd doubt you like that idea but it's there hanging up for grabs.

Also as noted Haki is also a learn-able trait and spiritually based. Only the Emperor version is unique. If it makes a difference to you Naruto's Sharingan can learn the Kido. Provided Ichigo doesn't use Bakudo #26 (Kyokko) or Noren Mekuri to turn invisible before hand. :smallsmile:

Sorry, thought I had Linked this. (http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=727269)

There's your calc for you. The links in it are out dated, but to be fair One Manga did drop out of the blue on everyone. It does list page numbers though, so you can check those.

The calculator was linked so other people could have the resources I used and check my math using them.

And Ichigo developing Chakra is like Naruto developing spiritual power due to being infested with what equates to a Vasto Lorde Hollow. Saying his spiritual power / Reitasu is an equivalent in a specific non transparency scenario is yet another fallacy in your argument. You sure seem to like these No Limits Fallacies.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The other is the unexplained characteristic of the Edo Tensei. The technique summons a dead spirit to a dead body that is apparently made out of paper during the duration of the spell and yet they, and not the caster is supplying, have infinite chakra. How exactly does that work? Is it a magical hand-wave or side affect of spirits interacting with the physical world? The latter would grant Ichigo infinite chakra, so I'd doubt you like that idea but it's there hanging up for grabs.

Nope. The explanation is that Edo Tensei repairs the body of the soul summoned. And chakra reserves come from the body. Depleting them is thus considered "damage" to the body and repaired accordingly. Hence endless (though presumably not unlimited) chakra reserves letting Madara spam Meteor all he likes among other things.


Also as noted Haki is also a learn-able trait and spiritually based. Only the Emperor version is unique. If it makes a difference to you Naruto's Sharingan can learn the Kido. Provided Ichigo doesn't use Bakudo #26 (Kyokko) or Noren Mekuri to turn invisible before hand. :smallsmile:

This assumes a level of similarity between universes that is explicitly against the ground rules established here. Its frankly ALWAYS an open question whether any magic system overlaps because the simple reality is that no matter how similar they appear to a third party observer they do not exist in any reality but their own.

Presuming any overlap is always an assumption.

Now then you can return to attempting to estimate exact values from artistic depictions. :smallwink:

[The Troubadour]

I seem to recall reading it was the same thing. Usually it takes however many years to learn it, Sensui did it in like 1/7 the time because of his multiple personalities. Dunno how Yusuke was supposed to be able to do it so quickly.

In the manga, Sensui says no matter how long Yusuke trained, he would never be able to develop Seikouki. On the other hand, that's a matter of quality, not quantity; Raizen, for instance, had so much more spiritual energy than Sensui, that he curbstomped him even with his comparatively "lower quality" energy.

But yeah, even without Seikouki, Yusuke was already a powerhouse by the end of the series, going nearly toe-to-toe with Yomi and almost winning. Imagine how much stronger he would be at his theoretical peak.

[Rater202]

In the manga, Sensui says no matter how long Yusuke trained, he would never be able to develop Seikouki. On the other hand, that's a matter of quality, not quantity; Raizen, for instance, had so much more spiritual energy than Sensui, that he curbstomped him even with his comparatively "lower quality" energy.

But yeah, even without Seikouki, Yusuke was already a powerhouse by the end of the series, going nearly toe-to-toe with Yomi and almost winning. Imagine how much stronger he would be at his theoretical peak.

All adding Yusuke at his theoretical peak to the mix would do, is add a pissed of formerly human demonic spit detective/demon lord to the fight, make Luffy pass out twice as fast, and when they realize that they are all good guys, we would be even more boned ten otherwise when they come after us for making them fight

[The Troubadour]

All adding Yusuke at his theoretical peak to the mix would do, is add a pissed of formerly human demonic spit detective/demon lord to the fight, make Luffy pass out twice as fast, and when they realize that they are all good guys, we would be even more boned ten otherwise when they come after us for making them fight

Nah, Yusuke loves a good fight, he'd probably be thrilled at fighting Naruto or Ichigo. :-P

[Vknight]

This is a easy fight
Toriko wins hands down, the power of food man the power of food
Also this really helps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHp7lse9dc)

But thinking on it

Naruto just has a lot of energy and can be clever in combat. Started training at a young age was not good at it
Ichigo has a lot of energy, but was a brawler
Luffy well he started younger then Naruto, was training harder, is a natural in a fight

Also as noted, Luffy is really hard to hurt without slashing or piercing attacks because his body is rubber
Combo with Haki and that is a steel bar instead of a sword

[Rater202]

Nah, Yusuke loves a good fight, he'd probably be thrilled at fighting Naruto or Ichigo. :-P

Go to the previous page and read what I posted, adding yusuke to the scenario only prolongs the fight and make it more destructive. then they come after us, and we are Boned.

[gooddragon1]

This is a easy fight
Toriko wins hands down, the power of food man the power of food
Also this really helps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHp7lse9dc)

But thinking on it

Naruto just has a lot of energy and can be clever in combat. Started training at a young age was not good at it
Ichigo has a lot of energy, but was a brawler
Luffy well he started younger then Naruto, was training harder, is a natural in a fight

Also as noted, Luffy is really hard to hurt without slashing or piercing attacks because his body is rubber
Combo with Haki and that is a steel bar instead of a sword

I see your video and raise you a relevant collaboration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=4sk0_1ecmiY).

[Ronnoc]

I hate to say this but assuming we go full munchkin mode I don't see anyway for this not to go to Ichigo due to the hogyoku. We do not know the full extent capabilities but it is at the very least capable of giving Orihime her powers.

The only reason Orihime doesn't just no-sell every attack and delete any opponent from reality is her self esteem issues which Ichigo in munchkin mode would not have. I have to give him the win.

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, it's turning out interestingly. Though on that aspect: The hogyoku. Absolutely anything Ichigo desires as an ability. Seriously. He could probably stop time if he wanted to as one of the abilities and I would not be even slightly surprised.

Ichigo doesn't need Hogyoku to stop time. There is a Kido spell for that, Jikanteishi. For that matter, that same spell allows teleportation, so teleportation can not be held as an unique advantage to Naruto.

Hogyoku allows teleportation as well, as demonstrated by Aizen, so Ichigo has not one, but two different versions of instant movement.


I'm feeling a bit unconfortable about bringing the Hogyoku into this. No one can really understand its thought-process, not even its creator, so I'm not sure it is entirely reliable (after all, Aizen lost, didn't he ?). Now, if it turns out that Ichigo's greatest desire is "stomp in the ground those two weirdos", okay, he probably wins. But that seems a bit shallow, as far as dreams go.

If we give Ichigo the Hogyoku, we can assume he will have access to all powers Aizen demonstrated. These include teleportation, greatly improved speed, strenght and durability, soul-shattering battle aura and de facto immortality. At least the last one (immortality) persisted even after Hogyoku "betrayed" Aizen.

---

Regarding Kamui: Kamui is not invulnerability. It has a cool-down of several seconds even, which is why Konan could hurt Obito with her bazillion-explosive-tags gambit.

As far as physical invulnerability goes, Ichigo wins hard. As noted, Bleach defensive abilities have been shown to block attacks from completely overpowering foes. Aizen survived Mugetsu; Kirge Opie survived Tensa Zangetsu; Yhwach's body double survived Zanka-no-Tachi's heat, which comparable to sun being shoved on your face.

[Rater202]

I hate to say this but assuming we go full munchkin mode I don't see anyway for this not to go to Ichigo due to the hogyoku. We do not know the full extent capabilities but it is at the very least capable of giving Orihime her powers.

The only reason Orihime doesn't just no-sell every attack and delete any opponent from reality is her self esteem issues which Ichigo in munchkin mode would not have. I have to give him the win.

The Hogyoku did not give Orihime her powers. Her powers were gained when she was exposed to Ichigo's reiatsu. All the Hogyoku did was shape those powers based on her wish to not be useless.

[Mato]

Sorry, thought I had Linked this. (http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=727269)For what it's worth, I like the nuke link :p

I'll dig in that post in a bit and comment on it.
Edit
idk why but Mangareader won't display their comics to me on this comp. Had to try finding some of them using Mangapanda. The posts in a gist are measurements, contradictory measurements, more new measurements, and Tite doesn't know what the word "consistency" is. And I agree he don't.

However, he has always fully intended it to be f'ing huge. I feel 244:10/11 carries his full intent rather than his artistic skills. There is Ichigo standing at a small building looking at what appears to be another small building. Then run until they are tired and the building hasn't changed size at all. Then they ride a snake for a bit and bust in the wall.

Ichigo we know by his own exaggerated claims he could run on a Reiatsu-sucking exercise machine for three days. But as a group you only move as fast as your slowest member (probably Chad). And how long did they ride the snake? Where those dotting buildings that appear to just be a stairway down the "gate" Nel spoke of being three days from the wall? Los Noches is massive, that's probably the only real thing that can be said.


Nope. The explanation is that Edo Tensei repairs the body of the soul summoned. And chakra reserves come from the body. Depleting them is thus considered "damage" to the body and repaired accordingly. Hence endless (though presumably not unlimited) chakra reserves letting Madara spam Meteor all he likes among other things.That statement also entails that the people of Narutoverse have infinite spiritual power as chakra is a combination of both physical and spiritual energy. This however is in total contradiction to Senjitsu. Natural energy needs to be balanced against those two, if it becomes the greatest amount you risk turning into [an animal] statue. This implies that spiritual energy cannot be infinite.

Of course, I still want an awesome Hashirama vs Madara fight. And given that physical side with an immortal body is infinite that'd disable Sage Mode, I find my self hoping Naruto butchers it's own cannon.


The Hogyoku did not give Orihime her powers. Her powers were gained when she was exposed to Ichigo's reiatsu. All the Hogyoku did was shape those powers based on her wish to not be useless.Or she is a Fullbringer. I mean, Chad was insightful enough to realize his powers were Hollow-like, Orihime had to be told. Which is more cannon than anything else.

No really. Tite first explains Chad & Orihime's powers as Ichigo's power leak (data book or urahara's comment? forgot which) even through none of his other classmates or friends manifest any powers. Tite changes this to the Hogyoku granting them, while it was sealed away in what is Urahara's best out hiding spot and apparently Aizen has never heard of the first Substitute Shinigami or the history of Fullbringers in all his research over the last couple hundred years. Tite then changes Chad's power to a Fullbring, so he has always had it, neither Ichigo nor the Hogyoku had anything to do with it. What's to see Orihime didn't get kicked over to the Fullbringer explanation as well? Not wanting to join an occult club?

[Rater202]

For what it's worth, I like the nuke link :p

I'll dig in that post in a bit and comment on it.
Edit
idk why but Mangareader won't display their comics to me on this comp. Had to try finding some of them using Mangapanda. The posts in a gist are measurements, contradictory measurements, more new measurements, and Tite doesn't know what the word "consistency" is. And I agree he don't.

However, he has always fully intended it to be f'ing huge. I feel 244:10/11 carries his full intent rather than his artistic skills. There is Ichigo standing at a small building looking at what appears to be another small building. Then run until they are tired and the building hasn't changed size at all. Then they ride a snake for a bit and bust in the wall.

Ichigo we know by his own exaggerated claims he could run on a Reiatsu-sucking exercise machine for three days. But as a group you only move as fast as your slowest member (probably Chad). And how long did they ride the snake? Where those dotting buildings that appear to just be a stairway down the "gate" Nel spoke of being three days from the wall? Los Noches is massive, that's probably the only real thing that can be said.

That statement also entails that the people of Narutoverse have infinite spiritual power as chakra is a combination of both physical and spiritual energy. This however is in total contradiction to Senjitsu. Natural energy needs to be balanced against those two, if it becomes the greatest amount you risk turning into [an animal] statue. This implies that spiritual energy cannot be infinite.

Of course, I still want an awesome Hashirama vs Madara fight. And given that physical side with an immortal body is infinite that'd disable Sage Mode, I find my self hoping Naruto butchers it's own cannon.

Or she is a Fullbringer. I mean, Chad was insightful enough to realize his powers were Hollow-like, Orihime had to be told. Which is more cannon than anything else.

No really. Tite first explains Chad & Orihime's powers as Ichigo's power leak (data book or urahara's comment? forgot which) even through none of his other classmates or friends manifest any powers. Tite changes this to the Hogyoku granting them, while it was sealed away in what is Urahara's best out hiding spot and apparently Aizen has never heard of the first Substitute Shinigami or the history of Fullbringers in all his research over the last couple hundred years. Tite then changes Chad's power to a Fullbring, so he has always had it, neither Ichigo nor the Hogyoku had anything to do with it. What's to see Orihime didn't get kicked over to the Fullbringer explanation as well? Not wanting to join an occult club?

I think that Ichigo's power leak awakened Dormant powers that Chad and Orihime already possessed, and the Hogyoku Shaped those powers as they developed. that ties all the explanations together in a way that fits

[Flickerdart]

Regarding Kamui: Kamui is not invulnerability. It has a cool-down of several seconds even, which is why Konan could hurt Obito with her bazillion-explosive-tags gambit.
It has a cooldown of several seconds after a long duration of use. The only reason Konan managed to do anything was because she knew about that weakness, which Ichigo has no way of learning - and even then, stupid Uchiha hax took care of that. What's the general consensus on implanting sharingans all over the place for Naruto?

[Frozen_Feet]

Naruto will, in the context of this thread, likely have a combo-platter of Sharingan, Rinnegan and Byakugan for good measure. Likely a large but limited supply of extra sharingans in addition to Senju cells.

Theoretically, it's possible Naruto could have the Sage's stated ability to use Izanagi at will. Which is not as neat as it sounds, as Izanagi has only been shown to be particularly useful in averting death, and still has to be activated and reactivated by the user. So theoretically at will Wishes, practically immunity to death. Which is similar to Hogyoku in this regard.

[Mato]

It has a cooldown of several seconds after a long duration of use. The only reason Konan managed to do anything was because she knew about that weakness, which Ichigo has no way of learning - and even then, stupid Uchiha hax took care of that. What's the general consensus on implanting sharingans all over the place for Naruto?Naruto having Kamui is a TO Naruto.

A TO Ichigo has Book of the End and with it can instantly learn everything about an opponent. And as mentioned it doesn't stop there. By slicing the ground Ichigo can instantly insert a million Quincy bombs as a trap, and like Konan use them to exceed that delay.

Book of the End is one of those powers that must be accompanied by an Idiot Ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall), such as Tsukishima being way over confident and playing with his opponent rather than trying to win, otherwise it's just way to overpowered to use in any sort of story.

[Fan]

Naruto will, in the context of this thread, likely have a combo-platter of Sharingan, Rinnegan and Byakugan for good measure. Likely a large but limited supply of extra sharingans in addition to Senju cells.

Theoretically, it's possible Naruto could have the Sage's stated ability to use Izanagi at will. Which is not as neat as it sounds, as Izanagi has only been shown to be particularly useful in averting death, and still has to be activated and reactivated by the user. So theoretically at will Wishes, practically immunity to death. Which is similar to Hogyoku in this regard.

What can Ichigo do to counter Kamui, and being imprisoned within another dimension with no canon way to escape?

Or Kotoamatsukami?

Neither of which require any sword swings, but just a glance to initiate. Though Kotoamatsukami doesn't even require that, as Danzo used it without removing the bandages covering the eyes.

[Radar]

(...) What's the general consensus on implanting sharingans all over the place for Naruto?
I'd say if Danzo could pull it off, Naruto could just as well. Combined with his demon cloak Naruto could make a spiffy Alucard impression. :smalltongue:

[gooddragon1]

Ichigo doesn't need Hogyoku to stop time. There is a Kido spell for that, Jikanteishi. For that matter, that same spell allows teleportation, so teleportation can not be held as an unique advantage to Naruto.

I did not remember that...

So, Ichigo stops time, learns everything about his opponent with book of the end. Makes traps that exploit the opponent's weakness with book of the end. Sets the traps off while still in stoppage time? Is that legal within the rules?

Isn't that kind of like a long retreat?

[Traab]

Izanagi is an interesting technique. It can literally alter reality for yourself. So why the *&%$*% does it only ever get used to no sell a deathblow? You could izanagi your sword swing having been 6 inches to the left when ichigo dodged it so it actually carved off a chunk of his skull. As a bit of a munchkin fan of loophole searching, this actually sounds like something that would be permissible under the stated description of how this technique works. Thats just one way out of thousands of variations that would allow any near miss to turn into a deathblow for the price of one sharingan eye.

[Frozen_Feet]

What can Ichigo do to counter Kamui, and being imprisoned within another dimension with no canon way to escape?

Garganta. Ichigo has the ability to travel through dimensions on his own. Garganta can even pierce into the Dangai, granting Ichigo time travel, of all things.

EDIT: Also worth noting is that while Ichigo has not displayed ability to create Garganta in canon, he has been shown perfectly capable of navigating the intervening dimension so precisely as to sneak-attack Aizen out of nowhere. I wouldn't put it past Ichigo to be able to break planar barriers with sheer badassery, because, for the lack of better description, that is exactly what he is seen doing.


Or Kotoamatsukami?

Neither of which require any sword swings, but just a glance to initiate. Though Kotoamatsukami doesn't even require that, as Danzo used it without removing the bandages covering the eyes.

For this technique, I'm going to refer to how B and Hachibi defended against Tsukiyomi, another ultimate genjutsu granted by Mangekyo Sharingan:

Double-teaming the user.

Depending on weather and time of the day, Ichigo has two to three distinct entities inside his head that could be used to work around such mindcontrol technique. Hogyoku is another. Finally, if Ichigo goes berserk in his Hollow form, no-one, not even his friends, will be safe. Kotoamatsukami is of dubious use in such occasion.

[Mato]

Kotoamatsukami is of dubious use in such occasion.Kotoamatsukami is dubious anyway. Recall it's Mangekyo effect is currently on a ten year cool down (and burned to nothing) and requires eye to eye contact. So even if you ignore the delay and the fact the eyes are gone, Ichigo apparently has Matrix Code Vision when blinded so it's not like it'd hit.

And even if it did, the Naruto-Wiki notes it works by falsifying memories. Book of the End anyone? Byakuya shows it how easy it is to ignore memories and this is a "they must fight!" scenario. Plus Edo Tensi isn't absolute and Kotoamatsukami's daily effect is totally countered if the target in so much realizes he isn't thinking like he normally would, a "Protect Konoha" command issued to a guy willing to murder his family and die for his country would be extremely super effective. It's too circumstantial to claim it's some kind of trump card.

[AtlanteanTroll]

:smallfrown: Alright, let's go home everyone. Show's over.

At least someone knew what I was talking about.

[Traab]

So seriously, is there any detail I am missing about izanagi that would preclude my idea? At first I just thought, "Poof, a sword appears inside his skull, but then I read the details on narutopedia and saw it was self only. The way I picture it happening is this. Naruto swings his sword at ichigo, who sways to the left, letting it just miss him. One of narutos sharingan eyes closes, and we see his extended arm has changed position. Suddenly a line of red goes down ichigos face, a look of shock appears on him, and a third of his skull slides off cleanly cut through. He didnt actually miss after all.

[Frozen_Feet]

Izanagi's wish-granting function is mostly ignored for the same reason as Hogyoku's wish-granting function is - we don't have sufficient knowledge of how it works. As such, Izanagi and Hogyoku should best be restrained to those things they've been shown doing in canon.

Beyond that, your plan is perfectly valid, Ichigo of this exercise just won't give a damn about his skull being split in half. Aizen was cleaved in half, he stitched himself back together in matter of seconds. Ichigo of this exercise will have even crazier level of regeneration. (Though it should be noted Ichigo himself has not been a slouch in this department either. He got a good chunk of his torso blown up and recovered just fine. After he beat the enemy who wounded him, that is.)

[Traab]

Izanagi's wish-granting function is mostly ignored for the same reason as Hogyoku's wish-granting function is - we don't have sufficient knowledge of how it works. As such, Izanagi and Hogyoku should best be restrained to those things they've been shown doing in canon.

Beyond that, your plan is perfectly valid, Ichigo of this exercise just won't give a damn about his skull being split in half. Aizen was cleaved in half, he stitched himself back together in matter of seconds. Ichigo of this exercise will have even crazier level of regeneration. (Though it should be noted Ichigo himself has not been a slouch in this department either. He got a good chunk of his torso blown up and recovered just fine. After he beat the enemy who wounded him, that is.)

Hmm, then honestly, whats even the point? Meh, I bring it right back to the start. Naruto seals him away using fuinjutsu and ends with a witty quip like, "Lets see you regenerate from THAT!" (He sucks at witty quips, and would probably be tired by now anyways) You can seal anything in naruto land. Even the most powerful incarnations of pure energy fall before a sufficiently powerful seal. There is honestly no reason to think it wouldnt work against ichigo.

*EDIT* As for regen, naruto did, over the course of a single fight, get an electrified arm shoved through his lungs at least once, and had his neck snapped like a dried twig and healed that up in seconds. He then proceeded to come back fighting even harder. That was after being set on fire I think. I am honestly unsure what his level of damage regen is currently, or where it can go with enough munchkinnery.

[Mato]

Izanagi has no affect on external probabilities like that.

If it you manipulate events to such an extent like that, Danzo could have killed Susake by tossing a knife and choose the outcome of him not blocking or dodging it.

Instead it's a defensive trait controlling internal probabilities. The user avoids any outcomes that would kill or otherwise harm him by reducing him self into a falsified state controlled by the Genjitsu.

[Traab]

Izanagi has no affect on external probabilities like that.

If it you manipulate events to such an extent like that, Danzo could have killed Susake by tossing a knife and choose the outcome of him not blocking or dodging it.

Instead it's a defensive trait controlling internal probabilities. The user avoids any outcomes that would kill or otherwise harm him by reducing him self into a falsified state controlled by the Genjitsu.

Yes, internal probabilities, like, "Did my arm go here? Or here?" The danzo fight was an exercise in eye rolling stupidity. Danzo didnt hold the idiot ball, he cut it up into pieces and devoured every last shard of the idiot ball, then got punched in the face by whatever god might control that aspect of reality. So him not being smart enough to use it for anything but no selling deathblows wouldnt surprise me. Besides, this is about muchkin behaviors to make things as powerful as we can, and according to RAW, izanagi effects reality on a personal level, so there is nothing to say that you couldnt use izanagi to make your arm have actually moved a bit to the left.

[Frozen_Feet]

Hmm, then honestly, whats even the point?

I noted that both Naruto and Ichigo have immunity to death at least a page ago. Naruto's is slightly less automatic, but it is there.

Bleach also has abundance of sealing Kido - most notably, the one used to trap Aizen. So on this field, Naruto and Bleach are pretty much equal.

[Fan]

Garganta. Ichigo has the ability to travel through dimensions on his own. Garganta can even pierce into the Dangai, granting Ichigo time travel, of all things.

EDIT: Also worth noting is that while Ichigo has not displayed ability to create Garganta in canon, he has been shown perfectly capable of navigating the intervening dimension so precisely as to sneak-attack Aizen out of nowhere. I wouldn't put it past Ichigo to be able to break planar barriers with sheer badassery, because, for the lack of better description, that is exactly what he is seen doing.



For this technique, I'm going to refer to how B and Hachibi defended against Tsukiyomi, another ultimate genjutsu granted by Mangekyo Sharingan:

Double-teaming the user.

Depending on weather and time of the day, Ichigo has two to three distinct entities inside his head that could be used to work around such mindcontrol technique. Hogyoku is another. Finally, if Ichigo goes berserk in his Hollow form, no-one, not even his friends, will be safe. Kotoamatsukami is of dubious use in such occasion.

Incorrect.

Danzo used it without removing the bandages that covered his face, and it works by giving the user false experiences and has been shown to override even things like Edo Tensei, which even ultra powerful ultra willful people like Senju Hasirama haven't been able to override.

There is no period of Naruto being in his head at this point, it makes the user believe that they are doing it of their own free will.

It's like a ranged Book of the End as far as person to person things go, and what's to stop Naruto from using it to make Ichigo believe that he truly wants to die, and wants to die as pitifully as possible?

As many "Entities" are in his head, they can only "act" so fast, and if the user wishes to die the Hogyokou works against Ichigo in this respect.

[gooddragon1]

Yes, internal probabilities, like, "Did my arm go here? Or here?" The danzo fight was an exercise in eye rolling stupidity. Danzo didnt hold the idiot ball, he cut it up into pieces and devoured every last shard of the idiot ball, then got punched in the face by whatever god might control that aspect of reality. So him not being smart enough to use it for anything but no selling deathblows wouldnt surprise me. Besides, this is about muchkin behaviors to make things as powerful as we can, and according to RAW, izanagi effects reality on a personal level, so there is nothing to say that you couldnt use izanagi to make your arm have actually moved a bit to the left.

RAW we have the hogyoku doing this:
However, its true power lies in its ability to sense the hearts of those around it and materialize their deepest desire.

What we can observe it doing is other stuff. Apparently RAW isn't good enough. Somewhere in this thread it must have been determined that you can only go with what you observe and not what is stated RAW. So you can only observe izanagi used protectively. Furthermore, it's why yin-yang release can't be stated to do anything (even though by RAW it can) because that's a "no limits fallacy".

[Traab]

RAW we have the hogyoku doing this:
However, its true power lies in its ability to sense the hearts of those around it and materialize their deepest desire.

What we can observe it doing is other stuff. Apparently RAW isn't good enough. Somewhere in this thread it must have been determined that you can only go with what you observe and not what is stated RAW. So you can only observe izanagi used protectively. Furthermore, it's why yin-yang release can't be stated to do anything (even though by RAW it can) because that's a "no limits fallacy".

There is a limit, it can only be used on yourself. I can no more use izanagi to make your head explode than I can use it to create a big bowl of ramen. I have to be physically doing something that I can use the eye to adjust. If it helps, think of it like aizens swords ability to fool the senses only its actually changing reality instead of just an illusion. So when I swing my sword and it misses, with aizens sword you only THOUGHT it missed, with izanagi, it did, then I used my eye to change where it actually went and because it passed through where you dodged, well, /slice Its an interesting twist on its ability, and just because you dont see it used that way explicitly, doesnt mean it shouldnt work.

[Frozen_Feet]

Danzo used it without removing the bandages that covered his face, and it works by giving the user false experiences and has been shown to override even things like Edo Tensei, which even ultra powerful ultra willful people like Senju Hasirama haven't been able to override.

I didn't claim otherwise. Okay, I'm going to claim now that Senju Hashirama actually can override Edo Tensei, because that's what he's been shown doing in later chapters.


There is no period of Naruto being in his head at this point, it makes the user believe that they are doing it of their own free will.

It's like a ranged Book of the End as far as person to person things go, and what's to stop Naruto from using it to make Ichigo believe that he truly wants to die, and wants to die as pitifully as possible?

As many "Entities" are in his head, they can only "act" so fast, and if the user wishes to die the Hogyokou works against Ichigo in this respect.

This tactic doesn't require Naruto to actually be in Ichigo's head at any moment - only for his split personaes to disagree with him and shake him out of it. Considering at least one of these entitites has the explicit agenda of "Protect Ichigo", I'm not convinced mindcontrol will do the trick here.

[Rater202]

I didn't claim otherwise. Okay, I'm going to claim now that Senju Hashirama actually can override Edo Tensei, because that's what he's been shown doing in later chapters.



This tactic doesn't require Naruto to actually be in Ichigo's head at any moment - only for his split personaes to disagree with him and shake him out of it. Considering at least one of these entitites has the explicit agenda of "Protect Ichigo", I'm not convinced mindcontrol will do the trick here.

Bt that is assuming that Tensa Zangetsu is a separate being from Ichigo. they fused when he used final getsuga, how do we know that they separated?

[Fan]

Bt that is assuming that Tensa Zangetsu is a separate being from Ichigo. they fused when he used final getsuga, how do we know that they separated?

This is a good point, Dangai eliminates these seperate entities and thus makes him more vulnerable to mind control.

[The Troubadour]

Suddenly a line of red goes down ichigos face, a look of shock appears on him, and a third of his skull slides off cleanly cut through. He didnt actually miss after all.

Assuming Naruto even has the strength to damage Ichigo, much less deal a fatal blow with just one attack.


Even the most powerful incarnations of pure energy fall before a sufficiently powerful seal. There is honestly no reason to think it wouldnt work against ichigo.

Ichigo overcame a spell that twisted space and time around him by sheer spiritual force, though.

[Traab]

Assuming Naruto even has the strength to damage Ichigo, much less deal a fatal blow with just one attack.



Ichigo overcame a spell that twisted space and time around him by sheer spiritual force, though.

Yes and naruto managed to destroy an opponent capable of obliterating the largest ninja village in the elemental nations with a single attack. One doesnt have anything to do with the other. A seal has already been seen capable of confining a mass of sentient energy so potent its mere presence is capable of creating storms and earthquakes. (I believe kyuubi was stated at being able to basically casually do those things) And there is no reason to expect that that was the upper limit on what seals could be capable of doing. Nor is there really any reason to expect that if it somehow came down to will versus will between them in some way that ichigo has the advantage. Remember both are the heroes of their universe, both have ludicrously powerful wills, unbreakable resolves, the ability to come back from utter defeat stronger than ever and crush the guy who 30 seconds earlier was spanking them like a disobedient child. You cant just say, "Oh ichigo would just fight his way out of it by sheer willpower" because his willpower would be matched against the willpower of another guy with the same basic willpower stat of "more than the other guy"

[Fan]

Assuming Naruto even has the strength to damage Ichigo, much less deal a fatal blow with just one attack.



Ichigo overcame a spell that twisted space and time around him by sheer spiritual force, though.

Yes.. he does.

His Bijuu Bomb (which he can spam) is 250 Terratons.

That's over 1 million Mugetsus.

Which means he has the power, a million times over, to 1 shot Ichigo like Ichigo one shotted Aizen.

"Kill" may not be possible, but like the Wolverine principle you can knock his lights out and he goes unconscious with enough damage done to his brain.

Remember, Bleach regeneration explicitly can't replace vital organs, and in this case, Ichigo will be working against himself for the period that the damage is dealt in thanks to the Sharingan.

[gooddragon1]

Aizen was completely disintegrated. He came back.

Aizen believed himself strong enough to kill the ruling deity of his setting but was stopped by the efforts of someone who surpassed him though strange power and some tactical genius on the part of urahara.

Not just a beast of mythic proportions. A god.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, with TO Ichigo could reasonably attain the power Aizen was shooting for. Deific power over everything.


to stand atop of the world in the heavens and take the place of the absent gods

[Traab]

Aizen was completely disintegrated. He came back.

Aizen believed himself strong enough to kill the ruling deity of his setting but was stopped by the efforts of someone who surpassed him though strange power and some tactical genius on the part of urahara.

Not just a beast of mythic proportions. A god.

True, and the narutoverse has already shown itself capable of summoning an actual god, the true god of death itself no less, to seal away the soul and power of whatever the user wants. Clearly aizen was deluded. He thought he was powerful enough to kill god, and in turn was curb stomped by another decidedly NOT godly being. Just because you are stronger than pretty much everyone you know, doesnt mean you are strong enough to tackle god. Thats like saying the world champ in the flyweight division should be able to stand up to the heavyweights. It doesnt matter if you are clearly the superior being in your weight class, when you start talking about fighting those that are clearly several ranks above that, you are just fooling yourself.

[gooddragon1]

True, and the narutoverse has already shown itself capable of summoning an actual god, the true god of death itself no less, to seal away the soul and power of whatever the user wants. Clearly aizen was deluded. He thought he was powerful enough to kill god, and in turn was curb stomped by another decidedly NOT godly being. Just because you are stronger than pretty much everyone you know, doesnt mean you are strong enough to tackle god. Thats like saying the world champ in the flyweight division should be able to stand up to the heavyweights. It doesnt matter if you are clearly the superior being in your weight class, when you start talking about fighting those that are clearly several ranks above that, you are just fooling yourself.

They wouldn't have tried to stop him so hard if it weren't possible. The soul king would just have said "bring it" or ordered his troops to let him come and try.

[Soras Teva Gee]

They wouldn't have tried to stop him so hard if it weren't possible. The soul king would just have said "bring it" or ordered his troops to let him come and try.

Why guards at all then? Because clearly the Soul King is an inscrutable deity who's whims are not to be questioned.

Frankly with being broadly implied to be a giant tool and/or eldritch abomination bothering him at all doesn't sound like a good idea.

Also for that matter its a little unclear whether Yamamoto could have gone and consulted with the Soul King even if he wanted to. Knowing where the key is not the same as being able to use it after all. It could literally be a sort of hopeless "The Key is in the Royal Guard's bones" and that was the end of it.

Plus unless Aizen was just given an open door to walk through there was the little issue of the collateral damage to some minor Japanese real estate and some of its residents.

[gooddragon1]

Why guards at all then? Because clearly the Soul King is an inscrutable deity who's whims are not to be questioned.

Frankly with being broadly implied to be a giant tool and/or eldritch abomination bothering him at all doesn't sound like a good idea.

Also for that matter its a little unclear whether Yamamoto could have gone and consulted with the Soul King even if he wanted to. Knowing where the key is not the same as being able to use it after all. It could literally be a sort of hopeless "The Key is in the Royal Guard's bones" and that was the end of it.

Plus unless Aizen was just given an open door to walk through there was the little issue of the collateral damage to some minor Japanese real estate and some of its residents.

Maybe the soul king is more vulnerable then he lets on? Maybe he's just a linchpin and they decided not to have more power but if someone beat him they could easily have all the power they wanted (which sounds like that's what aizen was after).

Also, I just read the name of the death god of naruto: Shinigami. That's interesting.

Lastly, I'm interested on a lower level about how Naruto can counter bleach's time stop or book of the end revealing his weakness.

[Dr.Epic]

Hiei sweeps in and slaughters them all mercilessly in seconds!:smallwink::smalltongue:

[Fan]

Maybe the soul king is more vulnerable then he lets on? Maybe he's just a linchpin and they decided not to have more power but if someone beat him they could easily have all the power they wanted (which sounds like that's what aizen was after).

Also, I just read the name of the death god of naruto: Shinigami. That's interesting.

Lastly, I'm interested on a lower level about how Naruto can counter bleach's time stop or book of the end revealing his weakness.

They have their own time stop.

There's also the "Creation of Everything" Jutsu, which allows him complete control over life and a beings spiritual energy.

It's what the Sage of Six Paths used to seperate the Ten Tails into the 9 tailed beasts, and what allowed him to make the MOON.

The Time Stop also requires a chant and a has a Obvious build up even after (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100107013616/bleach/en/images/a/ab/Jikanteishi%26K%C5%ABkanten%27i.gif), and Kido are perfectly capable of being interrupted.

Especially when you're constantly being told to kill yourself, by yourself, and being disentergrated every time you come back.

The Hogyokou also occupies a very visible space on a person's body. What's to stop Naruto from Kamui'ing it, and his entire upper body out of existence?

Naruto can also sit across the continent and do this.

[gooddragon1]

They have their own time stop.

There's also the "Creation of Everything" Jutsu, which allows him complete control over life and a beings spiritual energy.

It's what the Sage of Six Paths used to seperate the Ten Tails into the 9 tailed beasts, and what allowed him to make the MOON.

The Time Stop also requires a chant and a has a Obvious build up even after (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100107013616/bleach/en/images/a/ab/Jikanteishi%26K%C5%ABkanten%27i.gif), and Kido are perfectly capable of being interrupted.

Especially when you're constantly being told to kill yourself, by yourself, and being disentergrated every time you come back.

The Hogyokou also occupies a very visible space on a person's body. What's to stop Naruto from Kamui'ing it, and his entire upper body out of existence?

Naruto can also sit across the continent and do this.

Well, let's see where it goes this time.

What time stop would that be?

Also, we've only seen creation of all things split the tailed beasts up (the moon thing was his gravity manipulation). We don't really know what other things it can do.

Though you might want to remember that particularly adept users of kido can use them without an incantation. I think naruto might not even have a chance to use his ability on ichigo. Also, where is that mind control ability shown to function over such distances? I'm thoroughly enjoying your earlier logic as you can see. If you extrapolate more out of it I will gladly extrapolate that the hogyoku can find a way to prevent that.

[Traab]

Well, let's see where it goes this time.

What time stop would that be?

Also, we've only seen creation of all things split the tailed beasts up. We don't really know what other things it can do.

Though you might want to remember that particularly adept users of kido can use them without an incantation. I think naruto might not even have a chance to use his ability on ichigo. Also, where is that mind control ability shown to function over such distances? I'm thoroughly enjoying your earlier logic as you can see. If you extrapolate more out of it I will gladly extrapolate that the hogyoku can find a way to prevent that.

Possibly he means tobitos eye of the moon plan? An infinite genjutsu over the entire world that traps everything in his illusion. As for the whole no incantation thing, thats true, its also true that jutsu masters can cut down on or even eliminate handsigns for their techniques through training. So there is really no advantage either way with that.

On the other hand, the time stop having a build up and chant and all that, while true, you also know it only takes a few seconds breathing space to pull off a technique like that. Luffy and naruto start punching each other and he would have all the time he needs to activate it. So while it isnt an instant win, its also not a technique he wont be able to pull off in a fight.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Maybe the soul king is more vulnerable then he lets on? Maybe he's just a linchpin and they decided not to have more power but if someone beat him they could easily have all the power they wanted (which sounds like that's what aizen was after).

Perhaps but unconfirmable.


Also, I just read the name of the death god of naruto: Shinigami. That's interesting.

Not really, shinigami is just a word in Japanese for "god of death/death god" and is their vision of the Grim Reaper lifted from the Portuguese a couple of centuries back.

I first encountered it well before either series. Pretty common really.

Why my favorite soul reaper is Duo Maxwell.

[gooddragon1]

Possibly he means tobitos eye of the moon plan? An infinite genjutsu over the entire world that traps everything in his illusion. As for the whole no incantation thing, thats true, its also true that jutsu masters can cut down on or even eliminate handsigns for their techniques through training. So there is really no advantage either way with that.

On the other hand, the time stop having a build up and chant and all that, while true, you also know it only takes a few seconds breathing space to pull off a technique like that. Luffy and naruto start punching each other and he would have all the time he needs to activate it. So while it isnt an instant win, its also not a technique he wont be able to pull off in a fight.

They're on the moon. There isn't any stated celestial object outside of that at the moment.

Also I'd like the name of the time stop jutsu. I've never heard of it.

Furthermore, some users of kido are shown to produce the effect faster than normal by stripping it down (kurohitsugi first time and second time). All ichigo needs to do is create it for himself. This is an extrapolation unfortunately, but so would the idea of using anything but the ten tails prison for the eye of the moon plan.

We're probably going to need results of damage resilience to call this without extrapolation. Pretty much everything else is going to be extrapolation. Though that's not likely to happen as there's disagreement on exactly the size of various objects which have no stated size.

My feeling on that is: 3 days with the sonido speed should be more than enough to cover mountains with ease.

[Traab]

They're on the moon. There isn't any stated celestial object outside of that at the moment.

Also I'd like the name of the time stop jutsu. I've never heard of it.

Furthermore, some users of kido are shown to produce the effect faster than normal by stripping it down (kurohitsugi first time and second time). All ichigo needs to do is create it for himself. This is an extrapolation unfortunately, but so would the idea of using anything but the ten tails prison for the eye of the moon plan.

We're probably going to need results of damage resilience to call this without extrapolation. Pretty much everything else is going to be extrapolation.

Unfortunately, I dont think we can really do accurate damage resilience or mitigation, especially for bleach. So much of it seems to revolve around relative power levels. You cant just say, "It take x newtons of force to injure ichigo" because of that whole spiritual pressure thing. I may be remembering wrong, but in the first fight he had against kenpachi, he literally gave ichigo his best shot free of charge to hurt him and it didnt even leave a slight mark. Not because ichigo was physically weak, but because his spiritual pressure or whatever wasnt strong enough to counter kenpachis ability to reinforce himself with it.

And considering all power sources are mutually exclusive, its like trying to determine how many inches of chakra it will take for naruto to match ichigos ounces of reiatsu. The units of measurement just dont translate. You cant even really guess by comparing effects because both power sources work so differently, the fact that one might be capable of hitting harder doesnt necessarily mean its more potent energy than the other, it just means its more focused on damage.

*EDIT* As for the moon, meh, there might be a useable celestial body nearby the move can be used with. And if not, its also possible that with that much raw power, naruto could do the same technique over a more limited area, like say, JUST the main landmass instead of the entire world. :p

[gooddragon1]

Unfortunately, I dont think we can really do accurate damage resilience or mitigation, especially for bleach. So much of it seems to revolve around relative power levels. You cant just say, "It take x newtons of force to injure ichigo" because of that whole spiritual pressure thing. I may be remembering wrong, but in the first fight he had against kenpachi, he literally gave ichigo his best shot free of charge to hurt him and it didnt even leave a slight mark. Not because ichigo was physically weak, but because his spiritual pressure or whatever wasnt strong enough to counter kenpachis ability to reinforce himself with it.

And considering all power sources are mutually exclusive, its like trying to determine how many inches of chakra it will take for naruto to match ichigos ounces of reiatsu. The units of measurement just dont translate. You cant even really guess by comparing effects because both power sources work so differently, the fact that one might be capable of hitting harder doesnt necessarily mean its more potent energy than the other, it just means its more focused on damage.

*EDIT* As for the moon, meh, there might be a useable celestial body nearby the move can be used with. And if not, its also possible that with that much raw power, naruto could do the same technique over a more limited area, like say, JUST the main landmass instead of the entire world. :p

As much as it would be nice to say a limited area it won't work without guesswork. I'd just say that bleach time stop on a limited area is instantaneous with TO ichigo's level of skill and that Naruto never gets a chance to do it.

[Fan]

They're on the moon. There isn't any stated celestial object outside of that at the moment.

Also I'd like the name of the time stop jutsu. I've never heard of it.

Furthermore, some users of kido are shown to produce the effect faster than normal by stripping it down (kurohitsugi first time and second time). All ichigo needs to do is create it for himself. This is an extrapolation unfortunately, but so would the idea of using anything but the ten tails prison for the eye of the moon plan.

We're probably going to need results of damage resilience to call this without extrapolation. Pretty much everything else is going to be extrapolation. Though that's not likely to happen as there's disagreement on exactly the size of various objects which have no stated size.

My feeling on that is: 3 days with the sonido speed should be more than enough to cover mountains with ease.

They weren't running, they were riding Bawa Bawa, and masking their reaitsu.

Hogyokou has only been shown to provide Aizen's transformations, so we can't give Ichigo anything more than that.

Creation of all things is stated to take Life Force and Spritiual Energy to CREATE the tailed beasts, he then took the 10 tails chakra and split it up into each of them as he was dying.

He created the Moon with Chibaku Tensei, yes, but data books say that it creates form form nothingness. As an exact word for word quote.

[gooddragon1]

They weren't running, they were riding Bawa Bawa, and masking their reaitsu.

Hogyokou has only been shown to provide Aizen's transformations, so we can't give Ichigo anything more than that.

Creation of all things is stated to take Life Force and Spritiual Energy to CREATE the tailed beasts, he then took the 10 tails chakra and split it up into each of them as he was dying.

He created the Moon with Chibaku Tensei, yes, but data books say that it creates form form nothingness. As an exact word for word quote.

Okay, he can create the moon and split up chakra's. Not stated to do anything else.


However, its true power lies in its ability to sense the hearts of those around it and materialize their deepest desire. (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/H%C5%8Dgyoku)

Can't have it both ways Fan.

EDIT:


Also, according to the Arrancar Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck, it takes about three days to move from one spot to a gate. (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Las_Noches)

For the other part.

EDIT2:

And if we do go all the way then Ichigo gets to


stand atop of the world in the heavens and take the place of the absent gods (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/S%C5%8Dsuke_Aizen)

[Sith_Happens]

I might be misremembering, but I thought Danzo did use Izanagi to fix his aim once or twice? Or at least tried to at the end with the last eye he thought he had left.

Anyways, not that it's terribly important if Ichigo can teleport too, but I figure the smartest way for Naruto to open the fight would be by sending out a few thousand clones to plant Hiraishin seals basically everywhere. If he could get one onto Ichigo himself then that would obviously give a huge advantage, or at the very least turn the fight into the two of them just 'porting around rapidly with their blades locked together. At which point Luffy knocks them both out with the old "stick your arm in their way" trick (I know basically nothing about One Piece, would Observation Haki let you know where someone's about to teleport to in absence of any normally observable signs of what they're doing at all?).

[Soras Teva Gee]

And considering all power sources are mutually exclusive, its like trying to determine how many inches of chakra it will take for naruto to match ichigos ounces of reiatsu. The units of measurement just dont translate. You cant even really guess by comparing effects because both power sources work so differently, the fact that one might be capable of hitting harder doesnt necessarily mean its more potent energy than the other, it just means its more focused on damage.


Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.

You sir are correct. The best that can be hoped for is a sort of top end achievement in scale we can argue everybody in universe above that is at least as good as... but how much better is an undefinable thing.

Even that's vague unless you can establish a the writer behind it actually did the math. Intending that no that explosion is ten sticks of dynamite and this explosion is thirteen sticks of dynamite. And in comparison you need both parties to do that too.

So here at least all three parties meet a certain common "nuclear weapons" reshaping the landscape tier of pure power. And all three also have character that can fight that the characters slinging that power, without all the collateral damage.

[Fan]

Okay, he can create the moon and split up chakra's. Not stated to do anything else.



Can't have it both ways Fan.

EDIT:



For the other part.

EDIT2:

And if we do go all the way then Ichigo gets to

Y..You're the one trying to have it both ways.

I was using your logic flipped to show you why it was wrong.

*sigh*

Anyways, his deepest desire will be to kill himself thanks to Naruto's Sharingan abilities, "snapping him out of it" or otherwise the Hogyokou will still see that he wished from the bottom of his heart to die, and in his mind, had been doing so for decades.

There is a point of depression where you can't be snapped out of it anymore.

[gooddragon1]

Y..You're the one trying to have it both ways.

I was using your logic flipped to show you why it was wrong.

*sigh*

Anyways, his deepest desire will be to kill himself thanks to Naruto's Sharingan abilities, "snapping him out of it" or otherwise the Hogyokou will still see that he wished from the bottom of his heart to die, and in his mind, had been doing so for decades.

There is a point of depression where you can't be snapped out of it anymore.

No, I think his deepest desire before the fight will be "immunity to mind-affecting effects". Among other things since that's not a no limits deal it's just an extrapolation (part of the TO buildup and whatnot). Also, did you ever manage to get a range increment on that ability fan? Or is that an...

(•_•).
( •_•)>⌐□-□.
(⌐□_□)

...extrapolation?

EDIT: And no fan, I'm merely showing how ridiculous this strain of logic is and that I'm willing to play it either way.

[Fan]

No, I think his deepest desire before the fight will be "immunity to mind-affecting effects". Among other things since that's not a no limits deal it's just an extrapolation (part of the TO buildup and whatnot). Also, did you ever manage to get a range increment on that ability fan? Or is that an...

(•_•).
( •_•)>⌐□-□.
(⌐□_□)

...extrapolation?

EDIT: And no fan, I'm merely showing how ridiculous this strain of logic is and that I'm willing to play it either way.

Both Kamui, and Kotoama-whatever is line of sight range.

So long as he can see you, he can hit you with it. But it can't work through sensory jutsus.

Also, Ichigo wouldn't know about Genjutsu or the Sharingan pre fight.

[The Troubadour]

Yes and naruto managed to destroy an opponent capable of obliterating the largest ninja village in the elemental nations with a single attack.

In Narutoverse, unlike most other shonen stories, great spiritual energy doesn't automatically translate into an equivalent increase for ALL physical abilities; unless you have a defensive technique of some kind (like Kakuzu's stoneskin technique or Sasuke's Susano'o) or somehow break the rules (like the previous Raikage's iron skin, which is explicitly noted as an exceptional ability), you're still a regular human (notice how most fighters in the series focus on dodging attacks, instead of tanking them).
Bottom line: Pain was exceptionally powerful, but a direct hit with a Rasengan could (and did) take him out since he still had a human body. Meanwhile, in Bleachverse, the stronger your spiritual energy, the faster, stronger and more resistant your spiritual body will be.


You cant just say, "Oh ichigo would just fight his way out of it by sheer willpower" because his willpower would be matched against the willpower of another guy with the same basic willpower stat of "more than the other guy"

Who's talking about "willpower"? I was talking about pure spiritual energy.

[Fan]

In Narutoverse, unlike most other shonen stories, great spiritual energy doesn't automatically translate into an equivalent increase for ALL physical abilities; unless you have a defensive technique of some kind (like Kakuzu's stoneskin technique or Sasuke's Susano'o) or somehow break the rules (like the previous Raikage's iron skin, which is explicitly noted as an exceptional ability), you're still a regular human (notice how most fighters in the series focus on dodging attacks, instead of tanking them).
Bottom line: Pain was exceptionally powerful, but a direct hit with a Rasengan could (and did) take him out since he still had a human body. Meanwhile, in Bleachverse, the stronger your spiritual energy, the faster, stronger and more resistant your spiritual body will be.



Who's talking about "willpower"? I was talking about pure spiritual energy.

Demon Cloaks, and Sussanoo get around that though.

Given the Sussanoo have tanked Bijuu bombs in the past and been unbroken (from the Hachibi, which has had a recent Bijuu bomb measured at 2.5 Gigatons), that means it can still weather anything that the Bleachverse can put out.

Bleach simply doesn't have the firepower here.

Especially since Hogyokou hacks get shut down right at the start by Kamui taking it, and half of Ichigo's chest into another dimension.

[Mato]

Danzo used it without removing the bandages that covered his face, and it works by giving the user false experiences and has been shown to override even things like Edo Tensei, which even ultra powerful ultra willful people like Senju Hasirama haven't been able to override.Do you read the Manga or just watch the anima? Because months ago...
http://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/620/naruto-3911479.jpgChapter 620:13ish if image fails to show up.

It's explained that Oro limited their power on top of sealing their personalities and will when he fought against the 3rd. Plus now we've learned Oro can use Senjitsu, what's more is Kabuto's Sage Mode grants him the same skin/eyeshadow/pupils as Oro's true form.

So a possible Senjitsu enhanced Oro is using an enhanced version of Edo Tensei and it still requires Oro's full effort to restrain Tobirama. And it's still 100% totally ineffective against Hasirama.

Also. No. Just no. Kotoamatsukami's daily effect is a passive believable suggestion. If the target even so much as questions his choice Kotoamatsukami fails. It's Mangekyou version is more powerful, but it was cast a an already nearly free willed powerful ninja under control of a weaker Edo Tensei. Who mind you embraces the order "protect konaha" so well he murdered his family and became an outlaw willing to die for his country.


Yes, internal probabilities, like, "Did my arm go here? Or here?"If you so much as googled Izanagi;
"While the user remains physically real while fighting, this technique is capable of turning any occurrence including injuries and even death inflicted upon themselves while the technique is active into mere "illusions". Whenever the user receives a fatal injury, he or she automatically fades away as though they were an illusion all along and then returns back to reality; physically real and unscathed." ~Naruto wiki
You wouldn't have even gotten as far as hitting submit on your first post in this matter.


That's over 1 million Mugetsus.Citation needed. Recall, your thread link proves Tite continually displays the size and even design of Las Noches incorrectly. Measuring it by counting pixels is next to impossible unless you take the word of the characters within the story.


I might be misremembering, but I thought Danzo did use Izanagi to fix his aim once or twice? Or at least tried to at the end with the last eye he thought he had left.Nope. Izanagi has no affect on the Sharingan(s) used for it. The caster cannot reimagine him self more Chakra or undo the Sharingan's sealing them selves. "Tobi" is even shown to be damaged from Kohon's explosions, which would he affected him between Kamui timing out and the activation of Izanagi, so it cannot heal any injury sustained prior to activation either.


Also, Ichigo wouldn't know about Genjutsu or the Sharingan pre fight.They are on the moon right? Ichigo can slice the ground and learn it's a seal to hold the ten-tail's body. He would also learn who did it and who tried freeing it :p



Lastly, somewhere in there someone tried saying Narutoverse & Bleachverse may use two entirely different scales of spiritual energy. That's true, so Naruto probably couldn't use Kido. But Sklaverei is a real Quincy ability and I'm not going to ignore it for your sake. Ichigo can simply choose to absorb Naruto and Luffy. He gains all their abilities and augments him self with the stolen power for some time. Hogyoku aside, Ichigo can use any power he wants.

And if you've pay attention to the writing style of Bleach, that is literately Ichigo. It is the defining trope in Bleach. Ichigo gets every single power type or source in Bleachverse even if it's direct opposites of each other. And every single BBEG is jealous and seeks to obtain powers they shouldn't have. From Aizen having Shinigami and wanting Hollow and his followers the the Arrancars being Hollow and gaining Shinigami. To Ginjo being a Substitute and wanting Fullbring. Even the Vandenreich Quincies obtaining Shinigami. The entire plot boils down to who is attempting to obtain what, and Ichigo already beat them to it.

[gooddragon1]

Both Kamui, and Kotoama-whatever is line of sight range.

So long as he can see you, he can hit you with it. But it can't work through sensory jutsus.

Also, Ichigo wouldn't know about Genjutsu or the Sharingan pre fight.

True, but ichigo's been subject to mind affecting effects before. No reason not to make himself immune to them. And immune to every other thing he's come into contact with.

[Fan]

That sounds like assumption city.

Also, calc's are always more valid than your opinion of them, "Measuring Pixels" is far more accurate than your assumptions and I'll be believing a well mathed calc over your idea of what Las Noches "should" be.


Hogyokou hasn't been shown to make people immune to attacks, just resistant, and in this case it doesn't really matter how much defense someone has if it's only on Aizen tier.

Because the Hogyokou sure as heck didn't make him immune to Shinji's Shikai.

We are talking Terraton constant annhilations. Constantly. All the time.

The scan I had of the Ten Tail (Stage 2) Bijuu bomb is still valid. And it measures in at 250.6 terratons, and is spammable.

Even if Mugetsu was 100 times a Lanza, in pure multipliers alone, it would still be less than a 1 millionth of the Ten Tails bomb.

It's on a scale that exceeds what the Hogyokou was designed for, who it was designed by, and what it has been restrained by (The Reiatsu seals that put Aizen out of comission permanently.), that it is a no limits fallacy to assume it can tank it endlessly.


Especially with Hogyokou, and say, the sword wielding half of Ichigo in another dimension. If Naruto can't get all of Ichigo into an escapeless dimension.

Ichigo is still 3 times slower here, in Dangai where he was more powerful than the Hogyokou, even doubling it he's still only 2/3rds as fast.

He doesn't even get a shot off.

So let's get this straight.

You want me to believe someone who is:

2/3rds slower, giving him a DOUBLING thanks to Hogyokou and TO and not increasing Naruto.

1 Million Times weaker in terms of raw destructive power

In possession of a weaker OHKO, that requires a sword swing rather than LOS.

Significantly weaker in raw durability, all TO aside. Naruto did survive the Bijuu beam from the Juubi.

In possession of a more easily removed / destroyed immortality element.

And has his only edge as a time stop Spell that has a significant casting delay even without an incantation (When you're moving in excess of Mach 160 even 1 second is an eternity.)

Is going to beat his opponent who surpasses him in all categories that hard?

Because the hogyokou isn't going to be in this fight. Naruto doesn't even have to know about it, he just has to try to Kamui Ichigo's chest while he's busy "Snapping out" of the Amakoto-whatever through an internal shounen monologue.