1E Animate Armour?

[Lvl45DM!]

Animate Object (6th level cleric spell) applied to an opponents suit of plate mail. What would be the results do you guys reckon? I was kinda thinking either a straight saving throw or every round I make it do something its a Wisdom vs Strength of the guy wearing the armour roll. Could I use it to make them my puppet even? Just thoughts or any official rules would help. Its going to be in a Player vs Player deathmatch (there's good reason behind this one trust me) so I don't wanna just win the match, but I also don't want my 6th level spell slot going to waste on a save, since in 1st Ed against high level opponents its just not the smart play.

Alternatively, if I animated the holy symbol (its a drow cleric, so a spider) would that make it unusable for spells? And would an animated spider get poison?

[Lord Torath]

Well, there's always Heat Metal on either his (her? since it's a drow cleric?) armor or holy symbol. But I really do like the idea of her holy symbol wandering off, or her armor fighting her (or pulling itself off her). But yes, you are better off targeting her equipment rather than her. Drow get amazing magic resistance.

Are you allowed to use spells from the Tome of Magic? There are some great doozies in there.

[Premier]

You should really specify exactly which edition you're talking about. "1E" means the 1st edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, but many newer players who started playing in the WotC era incorrectly use it to refer to all editions before the 3rd; and your question is one of those where the answer might be "depends".

As for 1st ed. AD&D, the spell description states that specific situations will be adjudicated by the DM, so you should just ask him - if you can cast the spell, and especially if you've cast it before, it would make sense for your character to have at least a general idea of what would happen.

Lord Torath: If he IS talking about 1st ed. AD&D, he won't have Heat Metal as it's a druid-only spell. And no Tome of Magic, either.

[Lord Torath]

Ah, right. This is Lvl45DM. Assuming this is the same character as your previous thread (stopping teleports), ToM is definitely out. And 2E clerics have minor access to the Elemental Sphere (including 3rd level spells), but not in 1st Ed. :smallredface:

So, yeah, ask your DM. :smallsigh: And then start expecting high level clerics to use it on you. :smallannoyed:

[Lvl45DM!]

Same guy, same character, different fight.
See i would argue it would only work on plate, plate mail having a stronger form than chain, chain mail being much easier to overpower. And I wear chain so not worried. And my holy symbol is a volcano painted on my shield so again not worried about it getting used on me.

[Rhynn]

Definitely "ask your DM" territory. The spell targets multiple objects in an area, so you might be able to animate the armor and the holy symbol. I'd definitely let it work (animated suits of armor being rather a staple that I, as a DM, wouldn't want to rule out for myself!), maybe with a save vs. paralyzation (or spell) every round to move/act normally while wearing the armor, and maybe another save every time the holy symbol attacks (probably ignoring armor, since it's being gripped in the hand) and deals damage in order to not drop it.

[LibraryOgre]

Alternatively, if I animated the holy symbol (its a drow cleric, so a spider) would that make it unusable for spells? And would an animated spider get poison?

I would rule that a drow would get his MR against an animate attempt on his armor, and likewise his holy symbol (unless first disarmed). Given that MR allows you to walk through a Wall of Iron, I see this as reasonable.

I would not make an animate holy symbol immediately unavailable for spells, though you could certainly instruct it to get away from him.

If you do animate his armor, I'd say he has to fight it every round, and it would be pretty easy to immobilize him.

[Rhynn]

Oh, also:


And would an animated spider get poison?

Absolutely not, unless it had a built-in poison reservoir connected to the "fangs" of the holy symbol (an idea that I am so using for my drow from now on!). You're not turning it into a spider, you're just making a spider-shaped object move.

[Lvl45DM!]

I would rule that a drow would get his MR against an animate attempt on his armor, and likewise his holy symbol (unless first disarmed). Given that MR allows you to walk through a Wall of Iron, I see this as reasonable.

I would not make an animate holy symbol immediately unavailable for spells, though you could certainly instruct it to get away from him.

If you do animate his armor, I'd say he has to fight it every round, and it would be pretty easy to immobilize him.

PC Drow don't get MR. I'm also thinking of scrapping the holy symbol idea. She's a fighter/cleric, I'd be better off if she was chucking spells since my saves rock than forcing her to go toe to toe

[Lord Torath]

In that case, animate her favorite weapon?

[Rhynn]

In that case, animate her favorite weapon?

Or all the weapons on her, since you can affect multiple items.

Heck, you can almost certainly animate everything: weapons, armor, holy symbol, her clothes, etc.

[Greylond]

One thing to keep in mind is that most "Suits of Armor" are not one piece items. So, casting Animate on a pile of pieces of armor isn't going to do much, IMO.

[Rhynn]

One thing to keep in mind is that most "Suits of Armor" are not one piece items. So, casting Animate on a pile of pieces of armor isn't going to do much, IMO.

It absolutely will. I keep saying that you can animate all the opponent's items at once for a reason.

AD&D 1E PHB, p. 51:

Animate Object (Alteration)
...
Range: 3"
...
Area of Effect: 1 cubic foot/level
"... to imbue innimate objects..." "The cleric can animate 1 cubic foot of material for each level... i.e. a large statue, two rugs, three chairs, or a dozen average crocks."

It doesn't matter how many individual objects a suit of armor is comprised of. You can even figure out its volume from its weight. Plate mail weighs 45 lbs. (1E DMG appendices). You divide that by between 484 and 503 (the density of steel, in lb/cu ft), and get a volume of between ~0.0895 and ~0.0929 cu ft. An 11th-level cleric (minimum to cast a 6th-level spell like animate object) can animate approximately 122 suits of plate mail if they are in range. (It's probably safe to say Gary did not think of this use of the spell in making it work off volume, and such huge volume at that!)

Granted, this may be an overestimation, because the plate mail probably includes padding in its weight. Padded armor has a weight of 10 lbs., so I guess if someone can figure out the density of quilted armor we could re-calculate. I really doubt this difference will chance whether a single suit of plate mail can be animated, though.

Edit: Also, granted, the spell may assume that empty space is included in the volume (despite saying "volume of material" rather than "volume of the object" or similar). In that case, it's still perfectly doable. The human body has a density very close to water - or close enough for our purposes - and a 155 lbs. person has a volume of about 2.5 cubic feet.

[Greylond]

However, typically each item animated acts on its own. The spell is pretty vague on if the items can work in close concert such as the pieces of a suit of Armor acting as a single unit. Up to the DM ruling on the situation really.

Also, most spells cast on objects carried or worn by a PC/NPC means that the character gets a Save so it would be best to try it on armor that isn't being worn.

The kind of questions are best asked of your DM... ;)

[Lord Torath]

Edit: Also, granted, the spell may assume that empty space is included in the volume (despite saying "volume of material" rather than "volume of the object" or similar). In that case, it's still perfectly doable. The human body has a density very close to water - or close enough for our purposes - and a 155 lbs. person has a volume of about 2.5 cubic feet.
You skipped a critical sentence in your quote:
Thus, a 14th-level priest could animate one or more objects whose solid volume did not exeed 14 cubic feetThat quite clearly shows that empty space is not included in the volume.

On the other hand, almost the entirety of the spell description says that your DM will tell you how fast your animated objects move, how often they attack, and how hard they hit. And if the objects are on the person of another creature (like armor or weapons) they get a saving through to resist.

It doesn't say anything about the priest needing to maintain concentration on the animated objects, however.

This is a pretty neat spell! I'm going to have to play around with it a bit!

[Jay R]

I wouldn't let you move him to attack - too many separate decisions. But you might have a better chance just lifting it all up thirty feet (with the enemy inside) and letting go.

Also, just lifting his shield would keep it from protecting him.

[Lord Torath]

I don't think it gives flight to anything that doesn't have wings. (The pedestal mentioned in the description has to "lurch" side to side as it advances). So while you can't just have the armor fly up, you could have it "fight" any movements the wearer tries to make, and have her weapons twist in her hands. And I love the idea of having her holy symbol skitter away.

You'll probably want to hit her with a Prayer spell to lower her saving throws (and increase your own), but she'll probably hit you back, and add a Blight as well. Which you can then counter with a Bless. But you can hit her with Continual Light, which should have her at -2 to hit, and give a -2 penalty to her Dex and a +2 bonus to your saving throws. (Does it go to +/- 3 if both she and her target are within Light or Continual Light?)

[Greylond]

How would separate pieces of armor "Stand Up"? Each piece of armor would have to "Fly" to stay in one coherent unit. Again, armor isn't a single unit but a bunch of pieces strapped together. The spell doesn't give an object the ability to stand if it is not already standing, i.e. a bed sheet can't stand up like a ghost.

[Rhynn]

The armor could crawl off, yeah.

I think animated armor is too much of a staple to make it such a big hassle, though. Call it a special case, or whatever, but if I can't animate suits of armor (even if 122 of them is a bit much!), I don't want to live in this crystal sphere anymore!

[Greylond]

That's one of the great things about having a DM who isn't shackled to hard/fast spell effects. If the DM likes the idea, then there's nothing stopping him from interpeting the spell that way... :)

[Lord Torath]

How would separate pieces of armor "Stand Up"? Each piece of armor would have to "Fly" to stay in one coherent unit. Again, armor isn't a single unit but a bunch of pieces strapped together. The spell doesn't give an object the ability to stand if it is not already standing, i.e. a bed sheet can't stand up like a ghost.I would tend to allow any "joints" in the animated object to get invisible muscles. The straps connecting the various pieces of the suit of armor could flex, links of chain mail could push off each other, etc. A chain could do anything a snake could do. I don't know how much sense this makes, I'm just thinking while my fingers move...

Think Night at the Museum...