[3.5] Fixing shields and/or sword and board

[ddude987]

Hello all,
I know 3.5 pretty well (I like to think) and it is quite obvious that for fighter or martial classes a greatsword is generally the go to weapon. Are there any suggestions for making sword and board as viable as a greatsword?

suggestions:
-Allow shield offhand attack without two weapon fighting penalties?
-Add shield ac to touch
-feat for full strength bonus on both attacks?
-feats to force enemies to attack you, like goad but more effective.

Does anybody have any tried and worked fixes or just simply suggestions?

Thanks!

[Amiria]

I'd give shield AC bonus (including enhancement bonus) to

- touch attacks (but not incorporeal touch)
- reflex saves

I'd also improve the AC bonus of all shields

- large shield = 4
- small shield = 3
- buckler = 2

The fact that Animated Shields exist is always a problem for making sword and board viable. When you keep Animated Shields, I'd lower all the bonuses they give by 2, to a minimum of 0 (with the fluff explanation that they react a bit slower to dangers than someone who really wields his shield).

There are also too many Shield feats out there, with many of them quite weak. I'd combine/improve most of them and organize them into two feat trees (one for offense, one for defense).

In the offense tree, the shield bonus (including enhancement bonus) of small and large shields could e.g. be added to bull rush and overrun attacks. Maybe also half (round down) on trip attacks. Maybe add an extra +1 or +2 bonus for large shields since they are just more massive.

In the defense tree, the large shields could give Evasion (prerequisite BAB 6) and later Improved Evasion (prerequisite BAB 15). Small Shields only Evasion (prerequisite BAB 9) and never Improved Evasion. Oh yeah, only when wielded, not for Animated Shields.

[soveliss24]

I don't know that there's really a way to make sword and board EQUAL a greatsword from an optimization standpoint, but you can certainly make a fun/interesting sword and board character that can contribute meaningfully in most games.

Crusader seems to be the go-to option, though I've never tried it myself. The damage bonuses and extra effects of Strikes help make up for the weaker base damage of a one-handed weapon, and Crusaders can pick up some shield-block maneuvers that are apparently pretty sweet.

My personal preference is a Knight with Shield Specialization -> Shield Ward, Combat Expertise -> Allied Defense (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Allied_Defense), and a high Charisma (often prioritized over Strength) to make Knight's Challenge into a decent 'aggro' ability. However, this is much less optimized than a Crusader. I recommend it only for games without tier 1-2 characters, or where those characters are playing purely support roles.

[Spiryt]

Attacks with all effective weapons (or even not so effective TWF) scale with level, some very rapidly.

So in the very first place benefits from shield should to.

[Averis Vol]

In my game world I'm running I made a few changes I believe make it worthwhile to take a shield.

-shields grant their ac to touch attacks and reflex saves
-shields ac is bumped by one in all categories
-shields grant a scaling mundane miss chance; bucklers get 5%, light shields 10%, heavy shields 20% and tower shield 50%
-no more animated property.

simple things that have been said hundreds of times, but they both make sense to me and provide a way to get the survivability mundanes need. I also changed things like power attack so its a -1/+1 spread regardless of what weapon you're using; keeps one handed weapons the same, lets light weapons be power attacked with and reigns in two handed weapons.

[ddude987]

I'd give shield AC bonus (including enhancement bonus) to

- touch attacks (but not incorporeal touch)
- reflex saves

I'd also improve the AC bonus of all shields

- large shield = 4
- small shield = 3
- buckler = 2

The fact that Animated Shields exist is always a problem for making sword and board viable. When you keep Animated Shields, I'd lower all the bonuses they give by 2, to a minimum of 0 (with the fluff explanation that they react a bit slower to dangers than someone who really wields his shield).

There are also too many Shield feats out there, with many of them quite weak. I'd combine/improve most of them and organize them into two feat trees (one for offense, one for defense).

In the offense tree, the shield bonus (including enhancement bonus) of small and large shields could e.g. be added to bull rush and overrun attacks. Maybe also half (round down) on trip attacks. Maybe an extra +1 or +2 bonus for large shields since they are just more massive.

In the defense tree the large shields could give Evasion (prerequisite BAB 6) and later Improved Evasion (prerequisite BAB 15). Small Shields only Evasion (prerequisite BAB 9) and never Improved Evasion. Oh yeah, only when wielded, not for Animated Shields.

I like your suggestions and fluff too. Thanks. I'm thinking also making a mundane item, barbed shield spike or w.e when you deal damage with the shield your opponent bleeds for some con damage, or they fort save or take con damage. That would help shields I would think...

[Scow2]

Changes I'd make include giving Shield bonus to Reflex saves... but I'd rather not have S&B user be a TWFer as well. Then you get Confused Turtles dual-wielding shields, or asking "Why am I even using a sword?".

For those who use a shield strictly defensively - I'd add half the user's strength modifier to the shield bonus, and possibly as Damage Reduction as well - you trade off offensive power for defensive power, and someone with a stronger shield arm can block better than a less powerful character.

[Fyermind]

While you wield a shield (not animated) you can take a penalty to hit up to your base attack bonus to gain miss chance at a rate of 5% per point of penalty to a maximum of 25% miss chance for bucklers and light shields, 50% for heavy shields and tower shields. It only works for physical attacks unless you have shield ward or some other feat that makes your shield block touch attacks. This would be one of the feats in the defensive shield feat tree requiring combat expertise.

[Talionis]

Changes I'd make include giving Shield bonus to Reflex saves... but I'd rather not have S&B user be a TWFer as well. Then you get Confused Turtles dual-wielding shields, or asking "Why am I even using a sword?".

For those who use a shield strictly defensively - I'd add half the user's strength modifier to the shield bonus, and possibly as Damage Reduction as well - you trade off offensive power for defensive power, and someone with a stronger shield arm can block better than a less powerful character.

I like this take quite a bit. Makes sense that shield would help defense more than offense, but might get a bonus keyed off an offensive stat like strength. You might allow a buckler to key it's AC bonus off Dexterity.

One of the ways to make Animated Shields less good is that they do not get the Strength bonus that you get from normally having it on your person. This is another reason to make the bonuses from Stats significant.

An offensive feat tree might be appropriate. Make it less damage increasing than Power Attack however to balance it's increased

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd add on a flat miss chance for anyone using a held shield, similar to concealment. Something like nothing for a buckler, 10% for a small shield, 20% for a large shield, 30% for an extreme shield from RoS, and 40% for a tower shield. These of course would not stack with any other miss chance, such as for concealment. The tower shield miss chance wouldn't apply if you're using it for cover from a particular direction. These miss chances would not apply to animated shields, because it represents a character's ability to react to an attack by moving the shield to block it, and a shield hovering nearby doesn't do that. Flanking an opponent would allow you to completely ignore this miss chance.

Maybe even make a new shield enchantment that increases that miss chance. Lesser Blocking for +10% priced at +1, Blocking for +20% priced at +3, and Greater Blocking for +30% priced at +5. Joe Fighter or Mr. Crusader in the moderate-high levels with a +1 Greater Blocking tower shield would have a 70% chance for every attack against him to automatically miss, unless it's from an opponent that's flanking him.

[Sactheminions]

1. Remove the "animated" ability from shields. This is critical because if shields can have the animated ability, there is no reason to actually hold one past second or third level. At all.

2. Give shield bonus to Ref saves to both the character and (for tower shields) one adjacent ally.

3. Double the AC bonus granted by nonmagical shields.

4. Allow shields to grant Dex bonus to AC even in heavy armor (you're faster with the blocking).

Of course, none of this matters in a high-op party because the assumption is that the opponents will never be permitted to act, so who cares about AC or ref saves? But in most games I would think that does it.

[Chronos]

The best suggestion I've seen is that shields let you add your Dex bonus to AC again. Bucklers would have a base of +0, but no maximum Dex bonus; larger shields would give +1 or +2 AC automatically, but have a limited max Dex bonus. Last time I ran the numbers, this was enough to make sword-and-board worth just about as much as zweihanding (though obviously more defense-prioritized rather than offense).