How did Xykon become so powerful?(SoD spoilers)

[ShadowRudolph]

Hi, I just finished reading Start of darkness, first of all, I wanted to say it's an amazing book and one of the best fantays stories I've ever read, really awesome.

Anyway, I just wanted to ask something that has bugged me. Just how did Xykon become epic-level? I'm not very familiar with D&D, so I might be just asking a stupid question, but it seems like becoming epic-level is an extremely hard to do thing in the oots-verse. The only other epic characters we know of, other than Xykon, are the members of the Order of the Scribble, and they only became so after a many-year long epic quest to seal the Snarl. Xykon, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have done much with his life other than being a small-time villain randomly causing trouble (And at the start, he wasn't even good at that, getting thrown in jail and all that), nothing that would justify him gaining massive amounts of experience, and yet, even before becoming a lich, he's able to go toe-to-toe with Lirian, even overpower her, before the virus takes his magic. And then, he seems to get a really massive power boost after becoming a lich, which I guess is justified by shedding all the weaknesses of the mortal body, but still seems a bit weird to me. Anyway, where I want to go is, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of minor villains in the OOTSverse that do stuff like Xykon used to before he joined Redcloak, yet none of them seem to become epic-level threats capable of being a threat to the world like Xykon. Was this explained somewhere I missed or is Xykon's massive power level just something I have to accept for the sake of the story? It doesn't bother me too much, but if it was explained, I have missed it.

[ChristianSt]

We don't get a real explanation why Xykon could get so powerful, and we also don't get a real count how many epic level characters are in the OotSverse, there could easily some more epic guys hanging around, but with much smaller scales of business or awareness - and I don't think that will change (and I'm fine with that).

But you could easily ask the question on smaller scales and don't get much more of an answer (e.g. how got the Order/Miko/O-Chul/Redcloack to lvl XY?) - and showing enough Random Encounter to do so, isn't necessarily a good story, so I'm fine with not showing it. [And I think there aren't any special deeds you need to do to become epic, so you should be fine by finding enough encounters (but it could get harder and harder to earn XP thanks to Challenge Rating) - I haven't had the opportunity to play D&D, so If this isn't true, I hope I will be corrected]

[Scowling Dragon]

Hmmm. This is a good point. This bugged me too.

We kinda see him leap from smalltime to biggest-time quite quickly.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Experience. No literally. Experience points. When Xykon met RC, he was already an old codger and been doing the villain thing for several decades. The difference between Xykon-pre-main villain status was he survived. All his failings, ultimately, did not finish him off, so he still reaped the experience. I'd spit ball his level at near-epic when he first meets RC, and either on the cusp or very recently Epic when he first fought Lirian.

Now, post-Lichification, the reason the battle flipped so starkly was because Lirian's tatics were geared towards living foes. Her spell choice literally had no effect on him. Her big defense, the virus, didn't work on him. A lot of her good Druid spells couldn't work on him. Now I grant the fight was far more plot driven than the last, but the point is Lirian's strengths were useless against an undead assailant.

Now, surely, defeating Lirian and Dourokon granted him experience. They were challenges to be sure. How, exactly, he got to his current level (what that is, is not clear) is equally unclear. The Geekery thread is currently debating over what to peg him at. The main issue is, yes, there aren't many epic foes for him to encounter and thus gain experience. What we the readers can confirm as opponents should not warrant more than one level increase at best. But that is not here nor there. Xykon has shown to do adventuring off-panel (like creating his Astral Fortress) so its reasonable to assume he finds challenges (even weak ones) to get himself experience.

[factotum]

Xykon, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have done much with his life other than being a small-time villain randomly causing trouble

How do you know that? Apart from the one event mentioned in the main strip (his attack on Master Fyron to steal the crown) we know precisely nothing of what Xykon was doing in between being jailed as a young man and meeting up with Redcloak. That's a more than 50 year time period with absolutely no information, and chances are good he's well into the high teens in terms of level at the end of it. The rest can be explained by all the stuff he gets up to after meeting Redcloak--defeating Dorukan and Lirian, among other things.

[Snails]

X leveled at the speed of backstory.

It is really unclear how anyone can gain experience once hitting 20th level. We lack the data telling us how this is possible. That is not to suggest we should believe it is impossible -- it is a fair guess that the Scribblers hit 21stish level or maybe higher in their Five Gate Tour.

[Deepbluediver]

Xykon, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have done much with his life other than being a small-time villain randomly causing trouble (And at the start, he wasn't even good at that, getting thrown in jail and all that), nothing that would justify him gaining massive amounts of experience...

I don't think it's been explained anywhere, but we've really only seen Xykon for 5 brief 5 points throughout his life- as a teenager, as a lackey in service to some one else, fighting master Fryon, fighting Lyrian, and now as a Lich. There is literally DECADES of time in there where we have no idea what he was doing. He could easily have been off on one or more of the multiple-year long quests (of the evil variety) that gain people lots of XP.

Its kind of like saying some one drove from New York to San Francisco via Dallas, and then trying to extrapolate out the exact path they took. Maybe they've got some mardi-gras beads in there car, and we can assume they drove through New Orleans, and maybe they've got a "world's larget yarn ball" T-shirt, so we know they spent so time in Kansas.

Or maybe the beads are from a wild party in Miami and the T-shirt is from a thrift shop in Idaho; we just really don't have any idea so you can't say with any certainty where they might have passed through.


The Lich template on the SRD is LA +4, so it seems like Xykon could easily have been level 18-20 and his ECL is now 21+, even if he has less than that in HD. Also, has he actually used any real epic magic? We've only seen cloister as far as I know, but that had the Hippy Headband to go with it, and Xykon is a Sorcerer, so maybe it just required a UMD check to activate.

[Mantine]

I've just decided to assume he was already high-end by the time he met Redcloak and freshly epic as he fought Lirian.
After that... well, he became a lich.
Xykon himself said that he's awake 24/24h 7/7 days and doesn't know how to fill his time, and Redcloak noted many times that he tends to "just disappear and then come back with some new trick".

It's pretty clear that post-lichdom X simply decided to go and invest his free time with some experience grabbing, possibly on other planes (he's been shown buying scrolls and other magical items, plus planar fortress).

Everyone needs a bit of private life, world-conquering plans aside.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Also, has he actually used any real epic magic? We've only seen cloister as far as I know, but that had the Hippy Headband to go with it, and Xykon is a Sorcerer, so maybe it just required a UMD check to activate.

Cloister, along with Superb Dispelling, are both Epic Spells, and thus require Epic Spellasting, an Epic feat. So yes, Xykon is decidedly Epic.

[SaintRidley]

The Lich template on the SRD is LA +4, so it seems like Xykon could easily have been level 18-20 and his ECL is now 21+, even if he has less than that in HD. Also, has he actually used any real epic magic? We've only seen cloister as far as I know, but that had the Hippy Headband to go with it, and Xykon is a Sorcerer, so maybe it just required a UMD check to activate.

Cloister's focus doesn't cast Cloister but allow you to cast Cloister, so UMD wouldn't help. Also, we've seen him use Superb Dispelling, and O-Chul has some reason to think he has Epic Mage Armor as well.

Not to mention his various 10th and higher level slots, if we don't assume a metamagic rod or a Sudden Metamagic feat being used instead of the regular metamagic feat.

[Deepbluediver]

Cloister, along with Superb Dispelling, are both Epic Spells, and thus require Epic Spellasting, an Epic feat. So yes, Xykon is decidedly Epic.


Cloister's focus doesn't cast Cloister but allow you to cast Cloister, so UMD wouldn't help. Also, we've seen him use Superb Dispelling, and O-Chul has some reason to think he has Epic Mage Armor as well.

Not to mention his various 10th and higher level slots, if we don't assume a metamagic rod or a Sudden Metamagic feat being used instead of the regular metamagic feat.

I had forgotten about Superb Dispelling, so I guess that answers that. I wasn't certain about Cloister because it would mean Xykon (assuming he is following standard rules) spent one of his limited spell-know slots to learn a spell with a fairly specific use. I didn't know the rules for epic magic items very well, so I figured it could have been something else.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I had forgotten about Superb Dispelling, so I guess that answers that. I wasn't certain about Cloister because it would mean Xykon (assuming he is following standard rules) spent one of his limited spell-know slots to learn a spell with a fairly specific use. I didn't know the rules for epic magic items very well, so I figured it could have been something else.

Epic magic works differently. Sorcerers aren't limited in the number of Epic spells they know like regular spells. They are only limited by time, money, EXP and effort.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Cloister is an extremely powerful spell. It is only "fairly specific" in the sense that Fireball is fairly specifically for dealing damage.

[NerdyKris]

How do you know that? Apart from the one event mentioned in the main strip (his attack on Master Fyron to steal the crown) we know precisely nothing of what Xykon was doing in between being jailed as a young man and meeting up with Redcloak.

Yes we do. General villany. We saw him doing just that when he met Redcloak. Killing a random fort in the middle of nowhere just for kicks.

Xykon is smart. Really smart. That stint in jail was supposed to show that he made mistakes. He learned from them. He stopped taking on good guys he couldn't handle. The Xykon we see in Start of Darkness NEVER starts a fight he doesn't know he can win. He's the definition of a munchkin, in that if it's too powerful for him, he doesn't bother it. Lirian won because of a custom spell she made that nobody could anticipate.

Xykon spent 50 years learning. Subverting people's expectations to catch them off guard. Slowly and gradually leveling into the powerhouse we know today.


As for other evidence of people doing that, in Origin of PC's, Haley talks about exactly that. She tells V that being an adventurer will make you level up faster than anything else, if you're willing to take the risk of dying. We also see Bozzok leveling up in a similar manner to Xykon, taking out guild members that he can win against.


In a world catering to parties going out to kill level apporpriate monsters, it's not unreasonable to assume that someone can become epic level if they survive long enough.

[ShadowRudolph]

I guess we do not know what Xykon might have been up to during all the years we don't know anything about. Still, from his dialogue with Redcloak, we can assume a good portion of it has been spent building his own dungeons, commanding evil minions, etc... since he said he missed having minions when he found himself alone in his throne room when attacked by adventurers... I guess he could have lucked out during that time and defeated every party of adventurers that ever challenged him, which I guess must be a pretty good decent source of XP. i don't really see him having gone on a quest comparable in scope to what the Scribblers did, thiugh, he seems to be more of a lone wolf, and adventures of that scale usually require a party, and besides, I doubt that there are quests as important and central to the setting, with corresponding rewards, as what the OotScribble did.

[ShadowRudolph]

Yes we do. General villany. We saw him doing just that when he met Redcloak. Killing a random fort in the middle of nowhere just for kicks.

Xykon is smart. Really smart. That stint in jail was supposed to show that he made mistakes. He learned from them. He stopped taking on good guys he couldn't handle. The Xykon we see in Start of Darkness NEVER starts a fight he doesn't know he can win. He's the definition of a munchkin, in that if it's too powerful for him, he doesn't bother it. Lirian won because of a custom spell she made that nobody could anticipate.

Xykon spent 50 years learning. Subverting people's expectations to catch them off guard. Slowly and gradually leveling into the powerhouse we know today.


As for other evidence of people doing that, in Origin of PC's, Haley talks about exactly that. She tells V that being an adventurer will make you level up faster than anything else, if you're willing to take the risk of dying. We also see Bozzok leveling up in a similar manner to Xykon, taking out guild members that he can win against.


In a world catering to parties going out to kill level apporpriate monsters, it's not unreasonable to assume that someone can become epic level if they survive long enough.

I¡'d be inclined to agree, but then I don't understand why tarquin's party wouldn't be epic level too, after all they've been adventurers for quite a few years, went on a huge quest to conquer the entire western continent and have survived it all, so by that logic, they all should be epic level too, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that.

[WastedTalent]

I believe SoD mentions that when Xykon was turned into a lich he was lvl 16, implied by the 'six million dollar man' parody.

There's too much of a gap of information about the years before he met Redcloak, so there's no telling how exactly he got to that level. It might make for an interesting read, but it's not very relevant to the comic's main story, so it's unlikely we'll ever see all of Xykon's evil adventures from when he was still breathing (although if another prequel was made, I'd buy the hell out of it).

But even though Xykon might not have been the most intelligent character, he has always had a knack for survival, and people tend to underestimate him. So I don't find it much of a stretch for him to have made it to high level even before he met Redcloak.

[Reddish Mage]

I would note that Redcloak was only mid-level when they were trapped in the caves and has since leveled to about 17
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

I'm not sure this has anything to do on any restriction on Xykon's possible level, but note that Lirian kicked Team Evil's butts pretty easily. Afterwards, however, Xykon does trap her in the soul gem without much chance to level.

Anyway, we know that by now Xykon is epic from the discussions here and from this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

How can a lich sorcerer level get to be so high though? Xykon's ECL must be horrendous. If you ask me this is a big enough problem it can be considered a plot hole. Difficulty leveling has been mentioned multiple times in the strip itself (most recently by Malack who is a mere upper-mid to mid-high level vampire cleric), yet Xykon, an epic sorcerer lich, seems to be immune to the problem.

[Mutant Sheep]

I would note that Redcloak was only mid-level when they were trapped in the caves and has since leveled to about 17
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

I'm not sure this has anything to do on any restriction on Xykon's possible level, but note that Lirian kicked Team Evil's butts pretty easily. Afterwards, however, Xykon does trap her in the soul gem without much chance to level.

Anyway, we know that by now Xykon is epic from the discussions here and from this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

How can a lich sorcerer level get to be so high though? Xykon's ECL must be horrendous. If you ask me this is a big enough problem it can be considered a plot hole. Difficulty leveling has been mentioned multiple times in the strip itself (most recently by Malack who is a mere upper-mid to mid-high level vampire cleric), yet Xykon, an epic sorcerer lich, seems to be immune to the problem.I assumed that becoming King (ish) Goblin gave him plenty of story XP (Also, that silver dragon in Xykon's place) then Azure City got him up to 6th 7th level spells. His sudden grasp of implosion... I dunno, Darth V-same room syndrome.:smalltongue:

Xykon Dragon Slayer.:smalltongue: Malack may be powerful, but I don't see him being powerful enough (or willing) to go hunting for good level encounters. Team Tarquin seems to prefer vast wealth over being non-magical epic characters. (His magic friends, we just dont know)

[Anteros]

I don't think it's been explained anywhere, but we've really only seen Xykon for 5 brief 5 points throughout his life- as a teenager, as a lackey in service to some one else, fighting master Fryon, fighting Lyrian, and now as a Lich. There is literally DECADES of time in there where we have no idea what he was doing. He could easily have been off on one or more of the multiple-year long quests (of the evil variety) that gain people lots of XP.

Its kind of like saying some one drove from New York to San Francisco via Dallas, and then trying to extrapolate out the exact path they took. Maybe they've got some mardi-gras beads in there car, and we can assume they drove through New Orleans, and maybe they've got a "world's larget yarn ball" T-shirt, so we know they spent so time in Kansas.

Or maybe the beads are from a wild party in Miami and the T-shirt is from a thrift shop in Idaho; we just really don't have any idea so you can't say with any certainty where they might have passed through.


The Lich template on the SRD is LA +4, so it seems like Xykon could easily have been level 18-20 and his ECL is now 21+, even if he has less than that in HD. Also, has he actually used any real epic magic? We've only seen cloister as far as I know, but that had the Hippy Headband to go with it, and Xykon is a Sorcerer, so maybe it just required a UMD check to activate.

This post made me want to take a road trip.

[JackRackham]

I would note that Redcloak was only mid-level when they were trapped in the caves and has since leveled to about 17
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

I'm not sure this has anything to do on any restriction on Xykon's possible level, but note that Lirian kicked Team Evil's butts pretty easily. Afterwards, however, Xykon does trap her in the soul gem without much chance to level.

Anyway, we know that by now Xykon is epic from the discussions here and from this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

How can a lich sorcerer level get to be so high though? Xykon's ECL must be horrendous. If you ask me this is a big enough problem it can be considered a plot hole. Difficulty leveling has been mentioned multiple times in the strip itself (most recently by Malack who is a mere upper-mid to mid-high level vampire cleric), yet Xykon, an epic sorcerer lich, seems to be immune to the problem.
If he'd been level 20 when he Liched out, he'd need CR 17 or higher to get XP by game rules. In a world that's been shown to have so many Dragons
(just as an example), this would have been very doable over the decades. Besides which, he is in no way limited to the material plane.

Also, the comic doesn't follow the rules anymore, so no, it's not a plot hole.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Besides encounters, there's also roleplaying and story award XP. The last is nice, but the RP is probably the most important once you start getting up there in levels. Lots more people interested in talking to you then when you were a level five peon.

[Ellye]

I think the Astral Plane fortress is indeed a heavy clue to how Xykon earns his XP nowadays - he adventures in other planes.
Heck, he might even also be a BBEG for whole other off-screen adventuring parties.

[Olinser]

Xykon regularly fought and killed powerful foes in the course of his evil. Since quite a few of them were solo kills, that gives him a pretty nice chunk of XP.

He was willing to fight an extremely powerful caster (Fyron) just to steal a crown. Judging by how trigger happy he was at the Azure outpost, he definitely wanders around killing quite a lot of high-level people.

And then there's the fact that both he and Redcloak have lampshaded how many times adventurers storm wherever he is.

Given that Xykon's best ability is 'staying alive', adventurers seem to provide a steady stream of XP for him.

[Silkspinner]

To paraphrase that... guy, that had a problem with him: "It's a little something I like to call dragon slaying."

Seriously. Dragons seems to be a dime a dozen. A few encounters with most dragons of simply Mature age is enough to level him big time, and there are five levels of dragon above that. A great wyrm Red Dragon has a CR of 26+.

And those are just run of the mill, material plane dragons. Not even going into possible planar or Epic Level Handbook varities.

[Mantine]

Also, the comic doesn't follow the rules anymore, so no, it's not a plot hole.
The comic follows the rules loosely.

[Mage Paradox]

Xykon was level 19+ when he fought Lirian (in order to use two level 9 spells he'd need to be at least that high). Redcloak was level 10 (if I recall correctly).

How did he get that high? Well he was already a fairly high decent level as a kid, and he spent his whole (long) life fighting and killing people who annoyed him (a castle of Paladins he solos in SoD, 4 archmages named Fyron in one town in one year, etc). As he gradually lost minions, he would no longer have to share XP either.

I don't find his level unbelievable. For one thing he goes off on his own to fight people alot, leaving RC behind. And here's some of the stuff he'd done since he was level 19 (or higher):
- killed Epic Lirian (and her forces)
- killed Epic Dorukan (and his fleet of angels)
- defeated a tower of high level monsters including helping kill an Ancient Silver Dragon
- XP for battling Epic Soon and his host of Paladins
- Beat Darth V (a level right there)
- Years of having random foes randomly attacking (eg, "out of pot plants", etc)
- Story XP conquering a city

And it's been 28 years since he was level 19+

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

There are also methods of leveling besides XP gain. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) My theory is that being the story's primary antagonist and the final boss of a long campaign lets him be at least the level at which the story is intended to end.

Further, when a given story happens to end poorly for the good guys, he gets to advance his agenda to the point where the next story to feature him has a more epic scope, raising the villain's level appropriately. Tarquin seems to have undergone a similar process. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)

[Belkar<3]

Xykon regularly fought and killed powerful foes in the course of his evil. Since quite a few of them were solo kills, that gives him a pretty nice chunk of XP.

He was willing to fight an extremely powerful caster (Fyron) just to steal a crown. Judging by how trigger happy he was at the Azure outpost, he definitely wanders around killing quite a lot of high-level people.

And then there's the fact that both he and Redcloak have lampshaded how many times adventurers storm wherever he is.

Given that Xykon's best ability is 'staying alive', adventurers seem to provide a steady stream of XP for him.

Agreed. Xykon has been staying alive for 100+ yrs. killing people. He must have made some XP, right?

[Stormlock]

I¡'d be inclined to agree, but then I don't understand why tarquin's party wouldn't be epic level too, after all they've been adventurers for quite a few years, went on a huge quest to conquer the entire western continent and have survived it all, so by that logic, they all should be epic level too, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that.

There's plenty of evidence of that. Consider Malack's ECL, between his vampire and lizardfolk LA, his lizardfolk racial dice, and his cleric levels, easily pegs him over 20. Tarquin has a ring that heals hp on a round by round basis, which is generally an epic level item. He also has access to hundreds of thousands of gold pieces. And he pretty much single handedly spanked the OotS. He could easily be epic as well. And there's no reason to assume his other allies are any different.

[Living Oxymoron]

:redcloak: He does this sometimes. Disappears, only to return with some new trick.

Second page, panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

[NerdyKris]

And he pretty much single handedly spanked the OotS.

No he didn't. He was recieving aerial support from two flying spellcasters that couldn't be targetted, and the Order's primary caster was missing in action. They weren't beaten, they retreated to an area where the Linear Guild could no longer snipe at them, and then proceeded to pretty easily force the Linear Guild to flee.

If Tarquin was single handedly able to take them, he would have pushed the attack with Zz'dtri instead of retreating.

This whole arc has been about preventing the two teams from facing head on at full power.


:redcloak: He does this sometimes. Disappears, only to return with some new trick.

Second page, panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).


Also, when they went back to his tower to find good monsters living there, Redcloak commented that of course level appropriate monsters would move in. While the hard numbers rules are obfuscated, the world still operates on a D&D framework. And that framework says that level apporpriate encounters will always appear to allow someone to level up.

[Mage Paradox]

I don't at all get the feeling Tarquin is trying yet.

[Mike Havran]

I would like to add that Bozzok is a pretty low-key villain, yet he had at least 4 more rogue levels than Haley when they fought, so that's near-epic as well.

High-level characters aren't very rare, so Xykon could be easily one of them.

[Stormlock]

I don't at all get the feeling Tarquin is trying yet.

This, pretty much. He backed out of the fight indoors because his team was getting thrashed and it was obviously a trap. There was no need to press the fight while his team was deaf/banished/blind and likely to get themselves killed.

OTOH, when he fought outside, he took the attacks of the entire order on the chin at once, with no backup healing or anything, and he was barely injured. He has no help at all during 851 and 852 and is easily on track to kill them all (though V is absent, so it's 'only' 5 on 1). If that doesn't imply epic to you I don't know what would.

[Copperdragon]

Anyway, I just wanted to ask something that has bugged me. Just how did Xykon become epic-level? I'm not very familiar with D&D [...]

There's a very simple explanation: Rich needed a very superstrong caster as villain - and there Xkyon was in the form we now know him (aka "a few levels higher than he should be").
Rich stopped caring about the rules at one point and the narrative then decided how powerful Xykon had to be (like in any other narrative out there).

If we talk rules: Given what we saw in SoD Xykon should be in his high tens or low 20s, but now he's probably in the very high 20s or mid 30s. And, to address what you are actually asking, there's no way he could have achieved that "legally" - but as this does not matter at all, it matters not at all. :smallwink:

[Carl]

Whilst everyone else has hit on some good points, something else came up recently in a thread of mine. Xykon had, end developed further powers as a baby and then as a young child. He clearly wasn't gaining any XP during that period. We also know Samantha gained a very large amount of sourcourus powers very suddenly. There's a running theme in the OOTS world of such powers being natural gifts for some people to the point where they don't need XP to increase in power. Whilst i doubt it's the case it's totally possible that Xykon reached epic levels without a dot of XP just on that.

[Querzis]

There's a very simple explanation: Rich needed a very superstrong caster as villain - and there Xkyon was in the form we now know him (aka "a few levels higher than he should be").
Rich stopped caring about the rules at one point and the narrative then decided how powerful Xykon had to be (like in any other narrative out there).

If we talk rules: Given what we saw in SoD Xykon should be in his high tens or low 20s, but now he's probably in the very high 20s or mid 30s. And, to address what you are actually asking, there's no way he could have achieved that "legally" - but as this does not matter at all, it matters not at all. :smallwink:

I find it really funny that before you posted you got about 30 posts of people explaining in detail why it would be very easy for Xykon to be that high-level and you still decide to go with the «its impossible if we go by the rules» way. Yes it is. Very easely possible. Xykon hardly ever do anything with his time but kill things and there is still plenty of things that can give you XP at his level, not only in the mortal plane but also all the other planes.

And yes, you do still get XP for accomplishing stuff like conquering a city regardless of your level.

[ti'esar]

I would like to add that Bozzok is a pretty low-key villain, yet he had at least 4 more rogue levels than Haley when they fought, so that's near-epic as well.

High-level characters aren't very rare, so Xykon could be easily one of them.

I don't think high-level characters are particularly common in the OOTS world, so much as that the ones that do exist are always going to be important figures. Rich has made the point in the past that as dysfunctional as the Order is, they're still vastly more powerful than most of the NPCs they come across.

[gorocz]

Cloister is an extremely powerful spell. It is only "fairly specific" in the sense that Fireball is fairly specifically for dealing damage.

Well, you can use fireball to roast marshmallows too. :smallwink:


I¡'d be inclined to agree, but then I don't understand why tarquin's party wouldn't be epic level too, after all they've been adventurers for quite a few years, went on a huge quest to conquer the entire western continent and have survived it all, so by that logic, they all should be epic level too, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that.

Firstly, who says Tarquin and his band aren't Epic? :smallbiggrin:
Secondly, Tarquin isn't nearly as old as Xykon. Tarquin is maybe 50 years old? Xykon is more than 100 years old (SoD starts with him as a kid 103 years old before the beggining of the comic). That'd make him about 80-82 at the time of his lichification and we don't even know if he was Epic already.

[Copperdragon]

I find it really funny that before you posted you got about 30 posts of people explaining in detail why it would be very easy for Xykon to be that high-level and you still decide to go with the «its impossible if we go by the rules» way.

I can explain this:
I have no problems seeing Xykon hit "epic" according to the rules, none at all.
I have big problems seeing the massive XP gain after he hit the low epic levels to reach into the higher ones where we see him now. Most enemies Xykon met since the story runs after SoD were not high enough to give him xp and yes, he gets story-xp for all the things he does but I am hardly seeing more than two, three (max!) epic levels here. But he has them and he still has enough xp to burn on creating all his magic items.

So I reformulate: Xykon can easily make it to epic (level 21 +) but I'm not seeing he's legitly making enough xp to get into the high 20s where we are seeing him now (and yes, I know where Class and Level geekery lists him, but I'm not agreeing with that low entry - he simply needs too many epic feats for that).

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

to put this in perspective, I played in an evil 3.5 game (at the time I was playing a warlock/warblade) we started game at level 3. We ended game at level 27. Now we had some hombrew things (a Prestige class for me, one for another PC, and a hombrew feat or too for another, and we all had hombrew magic items) but we played pretty straight.

Our first few levels were like any other D&D game, dungeon crawls and killing monsters, around level 8 we sacked a city. We hit ninth in that city becuse that was when I picked up leadership (I got an archivast). When we were just pre epic we had our own evil kingdom. The DM created a religus order of palidens to oppose us.

I beat a tarasque single handed at level 19, well my cohort and another PC found a coven of Vampires to ally with.

After whiping out most of the knights of the holy fire, there leaders came after us, it was 2 saints both epic level, one paliden, one cleric, and they summoned a legion of Angels. That brought us up to level 22 or so.

The last few levels were spent hunting down a councle of archmages spread through out the planes.

If game hadhad continued, we would have faced a force dragon that was known for building golems... but we had a falling out before we got there.

Epic level is no harder then any other levels to grind through if you try to do stuff. Our Necromancer ended up having the Vampire template and was still and epic spell caster (Wiz/Clr/True necro/Mystic theurg)

[Copperdragon]

to put this in perspective, I played in an evil 3.5 game (at the time I was playing a warlock/warblade) we started game at level 3. We ended game at level 27.

But OotS is no grind, never was. Therefore, the xp-gain is much slower than in a group that puts more focus on getting levels and grind (read: fighting).

In the time the OotS runs (if it was a gaming group we're looking at what? A year of weekly sessions?) other groups would have levelled two groups to epic. The Order went from like level 8ish to 16ish.

It took Xykon a century of being pretty active to get to epic, Redcloak also needed decades to get to 17, Bozzok needed years of careful thief-guildering to get to 18+ (and he is exceptional).

We have to assume all that's exemplary for that world.

[factotum]

So I reformulate: Xykon can easily make it to epic (level 21 +) but I'm not seeing he's legitly making enough xp to get into the high 20s where we are seeing him now

Cool! Can you point me to the comic you've read where every single second of Xykon's time in the last 30 years has been spelled out? I bet it was a hell of a ride and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to read it.

[Copperdragon]

Cool! Can you point me to the comic you've read where every single second of Xykon's time in the last 30 years has been spelled out? I bet it was a hell of a ride and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to read it.

What's this?

We're down to speculate and if you do not like my speculation, there's still no reason to get overly aggressive.
We're all tied down to "what we saw". Given what we know, I really do not think he could legitly have gotten to the high 20s/low 30s where I put him now. I think he just "got the power because he needs it to, no matter where he could get it or even if could get it".
And given that my approach is the same as the one of the author of this comic (stated several times he does not bother too much with the rules but focusses on the narrative) I do not think that my approach here has a too bad standing. Even if you do not like it.

And yes, I also want to see that comic.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

But OotS is no grind, never was. Therefore, the xp-gain is much slower than in a group that puts more focus on getting levels and grind.

In the time the OotS runs (if it was a gaming group we're looking at what? A year of weekly sessions?) other groups would have levelled two groups to epic. The Order went from like level 8ish to 16ish.

We have to assume that's exemplary for that world.

the Order is not the optimized, but X seems to be. In that year or two of weekly sessions the in game time is about a year or two, lets say (just to be safe) 3 years the order has been togather, and Roy spent a year going from 3 to 8 with his last party. then we can assume his college was a 4 year program to get to level 3. So 8 years to go 16 level.

Tarquin could have 30 years (almost 4 times the order) adventureing, but diminishing retuerns, so he could be level 24 easy. X was 80 years old when he became a lich, and then spent years after that. So lets say that in the 50 years for SOD he made it to 21, in the time the order went from 8-16 he could have gone up 1/3 of that he would have gone he would be 24 now.

[Mage Paradox]

Xykon could have been Epic already when he fought Lirian the first time and lost. We know he was a minimum of level 19. I can see evidence of Xykon having the XP to have grown multiple levels just based off stuff we've seen in the comic, let alone the 28 years since he fought Lirian.

[KillianHawkeye]

Given that the first spell that Xykon, as a child, ever casts is animate dead (a 4th level Sorcerer spell), I would say that, yes, his power level is something you have to accept for the sake of the story.

[Mage Paradox]

Actually there is a lower level spell for animating animals.

[St Fan]

Given that the first spell that Xykon, as a child, ever casts is animate dead (a 4th level Sorcerer spell), I would say that, yes, his power level is something you have to accept for the sake of the story.

People keep reading what Xykon has done as a child in term of D&D rules, which is a big mistake in my book.

Xykon had no sorcerer level as a young child. Reanimating his dog was a complete freak magic accident which he had no control over. He didn't know what he was doing, he wasn't even casting a spell nor using any magical component. He just "wished it very hard and it happened".

Which is pretty much how every sorcerer in existence learned of their powers, just with differing details or age of the specific incident(s). Only after they grow up enough to gain control of their powers would they fit into the "sorcerer with class levels" mold.

Honestly, some people's insistence about adherence to the rules border on tunnel vision.

The rules aren't everything in a D&D campaign. Freak magic happenstances like this would be commonplace in any game I'm DMing. Trying to metagame everything is a good way to get entirely mistaken, and to get the universe lash back at you while laughing. Hard.

[Mage Paradox]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Arcane:Animate_Animal
Level 0.

[Living Oxymoron]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Arcane:Animate_Animal
Level 0.

Is it homebrewed? I think it is. It doesn't mention any source. Plus, I couldn't find it in Forgotten Realms Helps (http://www.realmshelps.net/), a website that is way more reliable than this D&D wiki.

[Mage Paradox]

Xykon's spell list on the geekery thread also lists him with an animate animal spell. I think that's generally agreed to be how he did it, with a cantrip spell. No more.

[SaintRidley]

Is it homebrewed? I think it is. It doesn't mention any source. Plus, I couldn't find it in Forgotten Realms Helps (http://www.realmshelps.net/), a website that is way more reliable than this D&D wiki.

Yeah, pretty much nothing on dandwiki is worth looking at.

[Querzis]

Or, you know, you guys could just read St Fan post. It was just his sorcerer powers manifesting, nothing more. Mind you, since sorcerers are born with great magical powers instead of having to learn them or train for them, I see absolutely no reason why a sorcerer coudnt litterally be born with a higher level then 1 (not saying thats what happened here but it would make sense).

[Bulldog Psion]

Or, see also "this is no longer a D&D comic, at all."

[King of Nowhere]

I am with those thinking that people coming to get revenge on xykon are an important part of his xp intake. Sure, killing half a village will not give him any xp, but among the survivors there will surely be some people seeking revenge, and some of them will manage to level enough to give him some xp. And then all the adventurers that tried to storm his lair. He didn't have to go looking for xp. HE just have to pull on a shirt with "i'm evil, come to get me" and xp spontaneously came to him.

[Living Oxymoron]

In my opinion, this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14842223&postcount=74) by the Giant is, in the narrative perspective, the best way to explain why Xykon is so strong: his character development is very advanced compared to other characters in the story. It is not a coincidence that he is always giving moral lessons in almost every character he interacts with. He is very self-confident and secure of who he is and of how powerful he is.

[Reddish Mage]

I apologize, my earlier pothole accusation was in poor taste, as I had yet to read the new comic and the discussion there of.

The XP gap can be explained rather easily and I especially like this one:


There are also methods of leveling besides XP gain. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) My theory is that being the story's primary antagonist and the final boss of a long campaign lets him be at least the level at which the story is intended to end.

Further, when a given story happens to end poorly for the good guys, he gets to advance his agenda to the point where the next story to feature him has a more epic scope, raising the villain's level appropriately. Tarquin seems to have undergone a similar process. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)



And because its explicitly suggested Xykon is leveling, this one:


:redcloak: He does this sometimes. Disappears, only to return with some new trick.

Second page, panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).


However I've not seen evidence of this:


Or, see also "this is no longer a D&D comic, at all."

What Rich said that I gather, is that he would like us to assume that he can be using homebrew at anytime for anything other than spells (which he unfortunately previously established the casters are in fact using standard spells!), not accuse him of making mistakes based on D&D rules.Where did he say it wasn't a D&D comic at all?

[Bulldog Psion]

What Rich said that I gather, is that he would like us to assume that he can be using homebrew at anytime for anything other than spells (which he unfortunately previously established the casters are in fact using standard spells!), not accuse him of making mistakes based on D&D rules.Where did he say it wasn't a D&D comic at all?

If it no longer follows recognizable D&D rules, it's no longer a D&D comic, even if it borrows a few names here and there. IMO, anyway.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Well, you can use fireball to roast marshmallows too. :smallwink:

"Fairly." :P

[Reddish Mage]

If it no longer follows recognizable D&D rules, it's no longer a D&D comic, even if it borrows a few names here and there. IMO, anyway.

Ouch. What a way to show disdain. Seriously, Rich's desire we not hurl accusations at him for failure to follow the rules doesn't preclude the ability to have D&D-based discussions where we take the comic as is. It is clearly still has the look and feel of D&D. Anyway maybe we should have that broader discussion in a broader thread and try to keep it civil.

I think this thread is fine for example, how did Xykon get his levels? My pothole accusation was in poor taste, but the thread quickly lead to a lot of informative explanations from the strips about how Xykon might level. I would note however, that my accusation was based on my own reading of the strips (Malack noted his own difficulty in leveling, though perhaps he is just hasn't been as proactive as Xykon). Standard D&D settings don't worry about how NPC's level. They appear at whatever level produces a level-appropriate final encounter.

[Bulldog Psion]

Ouch. What a way to show disdain.

No disdain, just that it's expressly not D&D any more. However, there is no reason that we can't discuss it like it is D&D. For example, it's been quite amusing to me in the past to have conversations on "What alignment are Neo and Morpheus?" even though alignment has no "rules power" in the Matrix universe. :smallsmile:

It's when people assume that there is a "right D&D answer" that they're going to start stepping on the Giant's toes. Mentally decouple the story from D&D, and there's a lot less chance of people making annoying comments about something violating the rules, because as of now, there are no rules.

There should probably be a forum rule that any discussion of D&D rules needs to be prefaced with the disclaimer "If OotS were a D&D comic (and it isn't), then..." Enforcing it would be a pain, though.

EDIT: and it also seems to me that non-D&D answers are now valid, when questions are asked. For example:

"How did Xykon become so powerful?"
"Probably because he's so old. Magical power probably builds in a geometric progression. Most mortal spellcasters die before they can achieve really high levels of power, but Xykon has broken through that barrier by achieving undead status."

[Heksefatter]

It doesn't seem to much of a stretch to me. Xykon always was one to whom magic came very easily: He could raise zombies as a toddler. He was a veteran villain at the time he met Redcloak. He encounters some Azure city soldiers and paladins and just zap the garrison for the heck of it. If you can carry that out and get away with it, you gain XP through the decades.

Also, I'd say that a character gets XP for completing major projects. Example: Xykon fought at most one character, Soon Kim, whose CR would be close enough to his to gain XP. However, if I was a GM in a campaign where a character took a city in battle, especially a city with the significance of Azure city, I would award said character XP. Similarly, if Xykon goes out to search for Serini's dairy to locate the gates, I would give a character accomplishing something similar XP.

Also, he probably roleplayed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html).

[Reddish Mage]

EDIT: and it also seems to me that non-D&D answers are now valid, when questions are asked. For example:

"How did Xykon become so powerful?"
"Probably because he's so old. Magical power probably builds in a geometric progression. Most mortal spellcasters die before they can achieve really high levels of power, but Xykon has broken through that barrier by achieving undead status."

Ick! See that is the sort of generic fantasy explanation I would hate to see on these forums. Please for the love of the pantheons, keep our explanations to something D&D or story-related!

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

If it no longer follows recognizable D&D rules, it's no longer a D&D comic, even if it borrows a few names here and there. IMO, anyway.

Hmm. I can understand saying that it's not a D&D comic anymore (in fact, I'm pretty sure that Rich would be delighted to hear it) but I can't say I agree with that reasoning. I mean, what would constitute a proper D&D comic in that case? A transcription of an actual or hypothetical gaming session, carefully edited to fit into pages and panels without leaving room for rules ambiguity?

On the other hand, I guess a series where the artist rolls d20s for all of the characters and abruptly ends the comic when the protagonist rolls a 1 at the wrong time sounds pretty funny, albeit for all the wrong reasons.

Er, anyway, to tie my silliness back to the topic... in an actual D&D game, does anyone ever put this much thought into how a villain gets levels and stuff anyway? They usually just start out with the powers required to establish themselves as a major problem... which, from the perspective of comic readers, Xykon kind of did.

The highest-level spell he cast in the Dungeon of Dorukan was Symbol of Pain, which was effective but decidedly sub-epic. Start of Darkness was written up afterwards... making him an epic character retroactively, I guess?

[Copperdragon]

Or, you know, you guys could just read St Fan post. It was just his sorcerer powers manifesting, nothing more. Mind you, since sorcerers are born with great magical powers instead of having to learn them or train for them, I see absolutely no reason why a sorcerer coudnt litterally be born with a higher level then 1 (not saying thats what happened here but it would make sense).

I actually do think that is what happens. Xykon shows very early great power - he can animate the dead and cast lightning from his fingers, neither is a level 1 spell - and we have no reason to assume he did a lot of adventuring. His powers seems to have been very well developed from the start, which in terms of D&D means his party (of one) did not start at level 1.

Another solid explanation would be that the "finding out moment" was especially dramatic and powerful (that is also known in narratives and RPG to happen a lot) and beyond what that person could normally do at that level.

[ShadowRudolph]

I actually do think that is what happens. Xykon shows very early great power - he can animate the dead and cast lightning from his fingers, neither is a level 1 spell - and we have no reason to assume he did a lot of adventuring. His powers seems to have been very well developed from the start, which in terms of D&D means his party (of one) did not start at level 1.

Another solid explanation would be that the "finding out moment" was especially dramatic and powerful (that is also known in narratives and RPG to happen a lot) and beyond what that person could normally do at that level.

Yes, after re-reading, this makes the most sense to me. It seems to me that Xykon was already Epic by the time he met Redcloak. He probably was born with great power and a lifetime of villany that wouldn't make any normal villain so powerful turned Xykon him into a formidable threat.

[Reddish Mage]

Hmm. I can understand saying that it's not a D&D comic anymore (in fact, I'm pretty sure that Rich would be delighted to hear it) but I can't say I agree with that reasoning.

Taking aside literary theory since the mid-20th century. I'm normally inclined to defer to the author on most things. However, the idea of calling this "no longer a D&D comic" makes me want to fly into the arms of my English Professors.

This comic breaths D&D, it comes from D&D, it was proudly displayed in Dragon magazine and is now displayed in Gigax magazine. A strong core of the readership play D&D, and the story continues to make copious references to D&D. THE RULES BE DAMNED. Its belongs in the category of D&D comics.

I state this because I think this is as much a literary fact as anything that relies on human constructs (like a particular fantasy universe) can rely on. It is something an experienced D&D player would recognize just by looking at a few of the latest strips.

Caveat: You could argue it is merely a "Comic with a lot of D&D in it, around it, rooted firmly in the history of D&D, and has a solid D&D fan base" and I would acquiesce and say "semantics." Note these are not just in story constructs, these are facts about history, the readership, the origins of the comic and so on, which are all external to the story.

[Finwe]

Remember Rule 0.

I don't think that the amount by which OOTS deviates from the RAW is any greater than the amount by which someone DMing an actual campaign might fudge them for the purposes of the story.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

This comic breaths D&D, it comes from D&D, it was proudly displayed in Dragon magazine and is now displayed in Gigax magazine. A strong core of the readership play D&D, and the story continues to make copious references to D&D. THE RULES BE DAMNED. Its belongs in the category of D&D comics.

Well, yeah, I agree with that, too. I think the reasoning for saying otherwise would involve narrowing the definition to be something much more specific that attracts the rules pedantry that Rich hates so much - a comic, "about," D&D in particular, mostly for the sake of the jokes.

Of course, I'd argue that it's also still that, it's just not going out of its way obsessing about it because it has other ideas to pull from.

[Bulldog Psion]

Hmm. I can understand saying that it's not a D&D comic anymore (in fact, I'm pretty sure that Rich would be delighted to hear it) but I can't say I agree with that reasoning. I mean, what would constitute a proper D&D comic in that case? A transcription of an actual or hypothetical gaming session, carefully edited to fit into pages and panels without leaving room for rules ambiguity?



Well, I was thinking more along the lines of effects being the predictable results of D&D concepts such as spells, feats, and classes. These are essentially the "rules of physics" for D&D, because they set limits on what can be done.

However, if everything is "homebrewed on the spot" as needed, then the rules have basically been removed. Tarquin isn't a factotum, a blackguard, or a fighter, to use my favorite comparison here. His abilities are limited solely by the needs of the plot, and are therefore unpredictable and basically unknowable.

If you have a novel with George Washington as a main character, that obeys the laws of physics and what we know of the history of the time, then this story is obeying the limits of our world, and can be called historical fiction.

However, if George Washington can suddenly regenerate lost limbs in 2 days, shoots healing or damaging rays out of his eyes, is married to two amphibian aliens, and gets involved in a shootout with Genghis Khan and Socrates using Gatling particle beam weapons, then it's not really an 18th century historical fiction novel any more. It may bear a certain resemblance, such as names, people, and places, but it's no longer "historical fiction."

OotS bears a certain resemblance to D&D, but it's not D&D any more. That isn't a criticism, it's just a fact that it now belongs to its own genre, because it no longer corresponds to the possibilities and limits provided by the D&D framework.

I know that this probably comes across as pompous and pedantic, but indulge me, I'm a writer also. :smallbiggrin:

(Edit: Okay, and I admit that I was curious as all heck about what class Tarquin is. And now it turns out his only class is "Tarquin." Sigh.)

[Olinser]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of effects being the predictable results of D&D concepts such as spells, feats, and classes. These are essentially the "rules of physics" for D&D, because they set limits on what can be done.

However, if everything is "homebrewed on the spot" as needed, then the rules have basically been removed. Tarquin isn't a factotum, a blackguard, or a fighter, to use my favorite comparison here. His abilities are limited solely by the needs of the plot, and are therefore unpredictable and basically unknowable.

If you have a novel with George Washington as a main character, that obeys the laws of physics and what we know of the history of the time, then this story is obeying the limits of our world, and can be called historical fiction.

However, if George Washington can suddenly regenerate lost limbs in 2 days, shoots healing or damaging rays out of his eyes, is married to two amphibian aliens, and gets involved in a shootout with Genghis Khan and Socrates using Gatling particle beam weapons, then it's not really an 18th century historical fiction novel any more. It may bear a certain resemblance, such as names, people, and places, but it's no longer "historical fiction."

OotS bears a certain resemblance to D&D, but it's not D&D any more. That isn't a criticism, it's just a fact that it now belongs to its own genre, because it no longer corresponds to the possibilities and limits provided by the D&D framework.

I know that this probably comes across as pompous and pedantic, but indulge me, I'm a writer also. :smallbiggrin:

(Edit: Okay, and I admit that I was curious as all heck about what class Tarquin is. And now it turns out his only class is "Tarquin." Sigh.)

You, and quite a few others that are apparently in a serious relationship with exact D&D rules, are completely misinterpreting Rich's comment.

He finally just got fed up enough with people claiming, 'lolz Giant you messed up teh rulez' to spell it out. He isn't following strict 3.5 rules - and has NEVER followed strict D&D rules, in the first place, if anybody cared to notice.

That doesn't mean that suddenly the OOTS 'verse functions on zero rules, that Redcloak is going to start casting 8th level wizard spells, that the MiTD is suddenly going to be a dryad, Elan is suddenly going to be able to cast Teleport, or that Belkar is going to spontaneously grow 2 feet.

This story takes place in the OOTS verse, which is based on the 3.5 rules, and as the DM, the Giant has unquestionable power to invoke rule 0.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Agree with above. "This isn't a D&D comic anymore!" is an extreme overreaction and misinterpretation of the relevant comments.

[Reddish Mage]

That doesn't mean that suddenly the OOTS 'verse functions on zero rules, that Redcloak is going to start casting 8th level wizard spells, that the MiTD is suddenly going to be a dryad, Elan is suddenly going to be able to cast Teleport, or that Belkar is going to spontaneously grow 2 feet.

This story takes place in the OOTS verse, which is based on the 3.5 rules, and as the DM, the Giant has unquestionable power to invoke rule 0.

I think this makes the point very succinct, just how much we take for granted the comic follows D&D. Where we have been fighting over rules have been mostly because of someone's interpretation on the rules. To even a lot of players with a modest investment in sourcebooks and years of playing D&D nothing would be amiss, or if it is, it is as likely or not to be their understanding that is at fault.

The thing is this has occured up to now in almost every single story, someone or multiple persons have suggested some of the following topics that is officially annoying:

1. Strategy X is dumb because they could do Y
2. The use of X ability is in violation of rule Y

This has lately included Malack's clearly house-ruled mass death-ward, Durkon's fight with Malack (every single thread of which), Belkar's hellhound ride, Durkula's summoning of a fiend (if I recall it was suggested that this violation of the rules was "beyond the pale" and then Rich retorted that there was exactly zero rules about losing cleric spells when being turned undead). I could go back to every recent fight and its the same thing.

The thing is, with so many new fans coming onto the forums it catches there fancy, I expect this will continue in some fashion or other...

[ti'esar]

In fact, weren't the Giant's exact words that he was obfuscating the use of D&D rules, because it's impossible for rules pedants to harass him over mistakes if they can't tell any were made? The "abandonment" meme seems to have been created almost entirely from a misreading of what he meant by "homebrew".

[Aldrakan]

The thing is this has occured up to now in almost every single story, someone or multiple persons have suggested some of the following topics that is officially annoying:

1. Strategy X is dumb because they could do Y
2. The use of X ability is in violation of rule Y

This has lately included Malack's clearly house-ruled mass death-ward, Durkon's fight with Malack (every single thread of which), Belkar's hellhound ride, Durkula's summoning of a fiend (if I recall it was suggested that this violation of the rules was "beyond the pale" and then Rich retorted that there was exactly zero rules about losing cleric spells when being turned undead).

Yeah frankly I think part of the reason that the now-infamous statement about "no rules" was made so strongly was because the recent rules quibbles people were having have been terrible.
Several recent complaints could be accurately summed up as "this ambiguous situation involving rules that are widely debated and unclear enough to require a DM's interpretation was not resolved in the way I would have interpreted them if I were running the non-existent Order of the Stick campaign, therefore Rich messed up".


Anyway, I was under the impression that it was always clear that the adventuring experience is not the sole way to gain levels. Isn't the reason V joined OotS was because he heard adventuring was a faster route to arcane power than studying?

[Knight.Anon]

X could have used his ethereal fortress to grind. IT could have been a lure to lower level adventures that he totally outclassed but could still get experience from.

[Mantine]

Or, see also "this is no longer a D&D comic, at all."

But that's false. :smallsmile:

[King of Nowhere]

I've never been in a group that did not houserule, and I would not want to.
The rules of D&D are felxible, they are made to incorporate that, because the game was primarily designed for roloeplaying reason. The rules are a frame that you can fill to your liking.
D&D is not rule nazis, it is a concept. A state of mind. that concept also includes rule nazing as one of the possible ways to fill that frame, but it is much vaster than that. Claiming that some different way of using the rules is not D&D would be like claiming that the thing around the picture is not a frame because the picture is different from what you're used to.

[Mage Paradox]

I'm sorry, but what Rich has said goes way beyond "house ruling" or "sometimes ignoring the rules".

Back to Xykon, and I'd have been surprised if he wasn't substantially higher than level 21, given the chronology.

[Reathin]

You'd be amazed how powerful you can get if you're really, really interested in killing people and aren't hung up on the consequences. Xykon lived until he was, what, in his 70's? That's an awful lot of murder, and it only gets harder and harder to stop him as time goes on.

[Porthos]

Agree with above. "This isn't a D&D comic anymore!" is an extreme overreaction and misinterpretation of the relevant comments.

Cosign.

ETA:

To put it another way, Rich certainly seems to think he is still writing a D&D based comic. Personally, until I see strong evidence to the contrary, I'm going to aceept Word of Giant in this case.

[Bulldog Psion]

Agree with above. "This isn't a D&D comic anymore!" is an extreme overreaction and misinterpretation of the relevant comments.

You know, I was going to present a counterargument, but it just isn't worth the circularity of it all. People see what they want to see, and that's true of me as well. Never mind me, carry on, have a blast.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Those comments are all about how he'd like to drop the D&D thing but can't, it's too late. So (for a while now) Rich goes out of his way to make sure the serial numbers are filed off the feats and classes and whatnot, so nobody can cry "foul!" when the rules are bent or broken... which must be frustrating. For a long time it's been true that the constraints of strict rules accuracy are subordinate to storytelling, and it's been reaffirmed that is super double true from here on out. We probably won't ever learn Tarquin's class; maybe he never had one.

Technically, OotS does not follow game system rules. Practically, OotS follows D&D 3.5 rules.

[Reddish Mage]

Since the last comic went up, I've made a few statements in response to the topic of the comic's relation to the D&D rules. Since this thread is locked and I have everyone's attention, I wanted to clear a few things up.

1.) Absolutely nothing has changed about the way I write the strip, at least not for the last few years. The post that precipitated my comment that I no longer make explicit statements about what feats or items or whatever was with regards to events in comic #600—which was published in 2008. If you have enjoyed the comic and the level of D&D content for the last five years, then you will continue to enjoy it in the future, because nothing is changing.

2.) I've seen comments (here and in other threads) that this "change" to the comic (which is not really a change) to "move away" from D&D rules will result in utter chaos, and that without the D&D rules to reign me in, I'm just as likely to solve a problem by having, say, Roy fireball the enemy, or Belkar summon a demon. This is ridiculous. Regardless of my adherence to the D&D rules, I am still obligated to adhere to the internal consistency of the story I have already written. Roy does not cast spells; this is already established within the work. It does not matter whether or not the reason he does not cast spells is because the D&D rules say his class shouldn't—it's still been clearly established that he does not. Therefore, he will not be casting any spells in the future unless I also establish, within the comic, that he has gained the ability to do so...which you could then extrapolate to mean that he has multi-classed to a spellcasting class. In other words, any move away from D&D rules will be to make a better story, and having the characters suddenly display heretofore unseen powers would make it a worse story—so I won't be doing it.

3.) Any comments made recently about the comic's adherence to D&D rules should be read in the context of my work being attacked for lack of such adherence. I have said, time and time again, that I bend the rules when I feel like it. Apparently, that hasn't been enough to stop some people from telling me that I'm wrong, that I'm ruining the strip, that I've gone too far, and other such rude and unproductive criticisms. It is personally difficult to read constant criticism over something that I have openly stated I do not consider to be a priority. Thus, I tried to make several increasingly blunt statements in an effort to cut such complaints off at the source. These were, generally speaking, hyperbole. Exaggerations in the heat of the moment for the purpose of stopping childish hairsplitting. If they upset anyone else reading them or tarnished their enjoyment of the comic, I apologize. That was never my intention; they were directed solely at the people to whom I was responding. I understand that 95% or more of my audience does not engage in this sort of posting, and that almost all of the posters who enjoy the D&D aspects of the story do so constructively, without being obsessively critical.

4.) To be perfectly clear: I do not actually wish I could go back and remove D&D from the earlier OOTS strips, nor do I wish for D&D to have no place going forward. What I really want is to write the comic with moderate broad-strokes adherence to the concepts embodied in D&D, and for everyone to get off my back when I get some of the fiddly details wrong, or invent a new thing that doesn't currently exist in the game. But that doesn't seem like it's something that can happen for whatever reason. A lot of people feel the need to proclaim my grievous errors over and over so they can pat themselves on the back publicly. That's very frustrating for me, and demoralizing—and people know this, because I've said it before, and yet they still do it. I don't know how to stop it from happening, because it seems like nothing short of an unambiguous rejection of D&D by me will have any effect. But it is hurting the strip. High stress leads directly to me not being able to work, which leads to delays. If nothing else, it is extremely difficult to write jokes when I'm angry.

5.) As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as written—like Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.

I love D&D. I love writing about D&D. I still have things that I want to say about D&D, or using D&D as a lens. They are things about alignment and philosophy, storytelling and its place in our lives, the treatment of those different from ourselves, and the meaning of family. I would like to be able to say those things without them getting bogged down in the details of whether or not a character can move more than five feet before executing such-and-such an action. If we can all agree that maybe the details of the rules aren't utterly crucial to the execution of the broader story, then there's no reason that the comic can't continue to explore D&D-related themes and issues. If we can't agree on that, then I'll probably continue to make off-the-cuff poorly conceived statements designed to throttle complaints, and then we're all miserable.

So, now that I've gotten that all off my chest, hopefully this topic can be left to die on its own.


I think that clears up a few things.

[ShadowRudolph]

I think that clears up a few things.

Whoa, I wasn't aware of all the rules-nitpicking that was going on on the oots fandom , else i might not have posted this, that's not what I wanted from this thread. I was looking more for a plot reason for Xykon to be so powerful, not people trying to track his exact level at different points of the timeline, it just seemed that while other epic characters had background that could justify them having become so powerful, Xykon has just "random villany and dungeon-building" which seems to be a pretty common thing that doesn't make most OootSverse villains epic level.

[Olinser]

I think that clears up a few things.

A long-winded way of saying exactly what I said. :smallbiggrin:

[Reddish Mage]

Whoa, I wasn't aware of all the rules-nitpicking that was going on on the oots fandom , else i might not have posted this, that's not what I wanted from this thread. I was looking more for a plot reason for Xykon to be so powerful, not people trying to track his exact level at different points of the timeline, it just seemed that while other epic characters had background that could justify them having become so powerful, Xykon has just "random villany and dungeon-building" which seems to be a pretty common thing that doesn't make most OootSverse villains epic level.

Yeah, I wouldn't have thrown a pothole claim. In fact however, this thread has never been about D&D rules. My accusation was about internal consistency of a self stated rule (Malack's claim about it being difficult to level). The answers have all been from comic strips and where informative. There's an actual strip suggesting Xykon has been off adventuring off camera for one.

Hopefully, the forum-wide discussion about any changes to the comic is wrapping up now.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yes, I don't mean there hasn't been a change... but it happened a few years ago, nothing (as far as rules accuracy) is changing now.

[Lombard]

Clearly the solution to this riddle is for the Giant to whip up a "Xykon: The Lost Years" book.

[Bulldog Psion]

A couple of quick thoughts:

1. Killing dragons would be a fairly efficient way to level up, assuming Xykon had the power and wit to survive the encounters.

2. Maybe close proximity to a Gate for a long period of time causes rapid experience gain as the character absorbs the leakage of divine power from the sealed rift. Kind of like being bitten by a radioactive Snarl. :smallbiggrin:

[Tre of the Wood]

Well, I never had a problem with it because although only a few people in the world reach epic level, we aren't looking at the story of the world. We are looking at the one person who did get that powerful. It may have been unlikely that he himself became epic leveled, but we wouldn't hear about him if he hadn't.

[Cronos988]

I have never really seen Xykon as "extraordinarily powerfull" for his class, age, and lifestyle when he met Redcloak.

While it is true that there will be few high level characters in the OOTS-Verse, and even fewer epic-level characters, it would be surprising if Xykon, given his what we know of him, didn't show high-level powers. In order to reach "high level", which I would peg at 16-20, you would need pretty much perfect circumstances, which are:

- starting with a significant powerlevel, which Xykon did;
- choosing an adventuring career, which Xykon did;
- Work your way up to an own party of "enterprise", which Xykon did;
- Survive and be active until old age, which Xykon did.

I would assume that in the OOTS-Verse, and the majority of D&D 3.5 Settings for that matter, an adventurer that manages to survive adventuring for 70 years will be high level. Few people would ever get that old, fewer still would be adventurers, and only a handfull of those would have started out powerfull enough to maximize their potential. So it seems perfectly logical that someone like Xykon, even if we didn't already know that he is a major threat, would be among the most powerfull characters in the world, only overshadowed by Creatures like Dragons and a small number of epic characters.

If said high-level character now embarks on an epic quest (against epic foes) and against all odds manages to survive, we can assume that this pushed him up to epic levels himself. And from that moment on, Xykon was a major player: Remember that he had a fortress for some years, that was possibly attacked repeatedly, rounded up Orks and Goblin villages and located Serini's Diary. That would have turned a "freshly epic" Xykon into a "comfotably epic" one. And after that we have Durokan and the eventy of the comic proper, which may also have granted a few levels.

So I see no big leaps in power level, certainly nothing inexplicable from either a storytelling or a D&D 3.5 rules standpoint.