Thoughts on my TWF Telflammar Shadowlord build?

[drax75]

Thoughts on the following Build?


Shadow Walker Template 1/ Fighter 2/ Rogue10/ Shadow Dancer 1/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

What do people think of this build and going Two Weapon Fighting?

I need a character who can act as a scout (heavy skills), preferably has Sneak Attack Damage for the two weapon fighting, And has some mobility on the battlefield.

I would not call it highly optimized but i feel it could be a nice character to play with.

I am curious what other peoples thoughts are on the build though. Is there a better class build i should look at that can handle the same roles?

[Aegis013]

I've always liked the idea of combining Idiot Crusader style build from ToB with Telflammar Shadowlord. Via either Ruby Knight Vindicator or The Master of Nine you can get Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink onto your always-on Crusader maneuvers allowing you to perform three full attacks every round.

If you put an emphasis on Swordsage you'll get a lot of the skills, although you'll lose out on some of the sneak attack power.

You can use Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt to meet the Dimension Door requirement, and Assassin's Stance to meet the sneak attack requirement.

Although admittedly all of the Shadowpouncing Idiot Crusaders I've designed are kind of directionless until around level 12. By level 20 they can get stupendously strong, especially if you use RKV's Divine Impetus and Mo9's access to other schools to use White Raven Tactics on yourself in conjunction with Moment of Alacrity, allowing you to take consecutive turns until your Turn or Rebuke Undead attempts run out.

[ksbsnowowl]

If your DM allows teleportation effects to trigger skirmish (most do, but I've seen a few argue against it), then levels of Scout wouldn't be a bad idea. Turn those 10 levels of Rogue into Scout 3/Rogue 7, and take the Swift Ambusher feat from Complete Scoundrel (and take Improved Skirmish too).

Also, if you are just going to take a level of Shadowdancer anyway, there is no need to take Shadow Walker. You would be better served by a class level, I would think. Check that; you would need 4 levels of shadowdancer to get the requisite shadow jump. Carry on.

[Namfuak]

Also, if you are just going to take a level of Shadowdancer anyway, there is no need to take Shadow Walker. You would be better served by a class level, I would think.

But how can he dance if he can't walk?

[Callin]

He becomes Phil Collins.


I like the idea of this build. It sings to me.

[drax75]

He becomes Phil Collins.


I like the idea of this build. It sings to me.

Haha thanks, the idea behind the build was to have a trapfinding, sneak attacking, hide in plain sight, skirmisher.

With rogue 10 you end up with 5d6 sneak attack damage on about all of your attacks, Plus you have improved evasion, and hide in plain sight.

The only down side is the Death Attack is a little weak but meh, its good for clearing out little guys at the start of a fight.

My only fear is the low BAB might be a problem, but honestly since you're likely to catch most people flanked, or flat footed you should at least nail something hard the first time you hit it.

[Callin]

Just use wraithstrike or that weapon enhancement that gives 3/4th BaB.


Edit: you going Thug on the fighter?

[drax75]

Just use wraithstrike or that weapon enhancement that gives 3/4th BaB.


Edit: you going Thug on the fighter?

Because Shadowlord does not get that spell though the Weapon Enchantment may help.

No the 2 levels of fighter would be for the bonus feats. If you look at the build its very feat intensive so those 2 extra feats really help out.

You end up needing

Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat Reflexes, and Blind Fight just to qualify for ShadowLord and Shadow Dancer.

Then you need TWF, IMTWF, GTWF, plus maybe finesse, and other feats to help your combat effectiveness i was even thinking Craven would be a good addition.

Its a lot of feats so between starting as a human, and the 2 fighter feats that helps cover 3 of those feats needed.

[Callin]

I figured that. Thug is the one that gives more Skill Points though not the Sneak Attack.

Also from what I hear there is a Magic Item that gives Imp TWF. So you could get that but it wouldnt allow you to take GTWF. So you lose out on one very very low attack bonus attack that would probably miss anyways. Plus side is you free up two feats.

[drax75]

I figured that. Thug is the one that gives more Skill Points though not the Sneak Attack.

Oh i thought i read in the UA that it replaced feats with Sneak Attack???? I will have to check the book again when i get home. I am at work and the SRD is blocked, unless you can hit me with a copy/paste from the SRD.

[Callin]

Probably nevermind because it looses the First Level Bonus Feat... (sorry to get the hopes up lol)


from the SRD
Fighter Variant: Thug
The thug is a street fighter, a survivor who learns to mix brute force with a bit of craftiness. He has most of the fighter's strengths, along with some additional skills to help keep him alive on the mean streets. Despite the name, not all thugs are mere hooligans—many are crafty veterans who use their knowledge of the streets to gain an advantage against their opponents.

Most thugs are nonlawful, though sometimes gangs of thugs with a lawful streak band together.

Class Skills
Add the following skills to the fighter's class skill list: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand. The thug gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

Class Features
The thug has all the standard fighter class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Thugs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.

Bonus Feats
A thug doesn't gain the normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level. Also, add Urban Tracking to the list of fighter bonus feats available to the thug.

[drax75]

Probably nevermind because it looses the First Level Bonus Feat... (sorry to get the hopes up lol)



Its ok, thanks for looking :smallsmile:

[Callin]

oh did you see my previous edit from a few posts back?

[ksbsnowowl]

Because Shadowlord does not get that spell though the Weapon Enchantment may help.

Wand, meet Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device, meet Wand.

Also, look at the Spectral Dagger from MIC.

[drax75]

oh did you see my previous edit from a few posts back?

Yea i did, i dunno though if the enemy is flat footed then even with that last measly attack they are denied their dex to armor class has a good chance of hitting. I mean i could sub those feats out and pick up the feat that lets me wield a medium weapon in my off hand then just go duel Elven thin Blade with Skillfull and maybe keen on them 1d8 damage with a crit range of 15-20 is not so bad. Though i may have the feats for that extra feat even with the Improved and greater 2 weapon fighting.

[drax75]

Wand, meet Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device, meet Wand.

Also, look at the Spectral Dagger from MIC.

UMD is a great way to grab that spell thats for sure.

As doe that dagger like i said im at work so they block most of the dnd stuff. I can look it up when i get home unless you want to toss me a copy/paste of the dagger.

[Bonzai]

I went with a shadow walker rogue 1/fighter 2/Sword Sage 4/ Teflamar Shadow Lord 4/ Sword Sage 8. It was a lot of fun. It was basically a dual wielding night crawler. Keep yourself hasted, start off with the cloak of deception boost that gives you greater invis until the end of your turn, use the 3 teleport maneuvers and make 3 hasted, sneak attacking, dual wielding full attacks a turn.

However, I've learned of a few new tricks since then. If I were ever to go back to one, I would use the UA rogue variant instead of fighter for the extra feats without sacrificing skills. I would also take a few levels of Shadow Caster to get Flicker as a supernatural ability. Then I would be able to do 4 full attacks in round when combined with the three maneuvers (as a standard, move, swift, and free action). Then I can use the adaptive style feat in the following round, and do it all over again.

That being said, a friend of mine has caster version that pretty much puts mine to shame, but I prefer the choppy build for it.

[drax75]

I went with a shadow walker rogue 1/fighter 2/Sword Sage 4/ Teflamar Shadow Lord 4/ Sword Sage 8. It was a lot of fun. It was basically a dual wielding night crawler. Keep yourself hasted, start off with the cloak of deception boost that gives you greater invis until the end of your turn, use the 3 teleport maneuvers and make 3 hasted, sneak attacking, dual wielding full attacks a turn.

However, I've learned of a few new tricks since then. If I were ever to go back to one, I would use the UA rogue variant instead of fighter for the extra feats without sacrificing skills. I would also take a few levels of Shadow Caster to get Flicker as a supernatural ability. Then I would be able to do 4 full attacks in round when combined with the three maneuvers (as a standard, move, swift, and free action). Then I can use the adaptive style feat in the following round, and do it all over again.

That being said, a friend of mine has caster version that pretty much puts mine to shame, but I prefer the choppy build for it.

Okay but to get that to fly you have to use the Swordsage variant that lets you sneak attack correct? How do you get the extra sneak attack damage without the rogue levels?

Also with the rogue variant do you keep the sneak attack? Seems like a nice build but it also seems you give up evasion (which can be purchased i know), but key is you lose improved evasion, plus you lose hide in plain sight as a shadowdancer (and i was sure there wasn't anything better?) I mean sure you pump out more damage but does the loss of utility hurt the over all build?

[ksbsnowowl]

UMD is a great way to grab that spell thats for sure.

As doe that dagger like i said im at work so they block most of the dnd stuff. I can look it up when i get home unless you want to toss me a copy/paste of the dagger.

The dagger's blade is basically a Chill Touch spell, all the time. Touch attack for 1d6 cold damage. If it is an undead, it takes no damage and instead makes a will save (vs an admittedly low DC) or flees, as per Chill Touch. ~6k gp.

[Bonzai]

Okay but to get that to fly you have to use the Swordsage variant that lets you sneak attack correct? How do you get the extra sneak attack damage without the rogue levels?

Also with the rogue variant do you keep the sneak attack? Seems like a nice build but it also seems you give up evasion (which can be purchased i know), but key is you lose improved evasion, plus you lose hide in plain sight as a shadowdancer (and i was sure there wasn't anything better?) I mean sure you pump out more damage but does the loss of utility hurt the over all build?

You don't need a sword sage variant, just the stance that gives you 2d6 sneak attack. That alone can qualify you. I don't have the exact revised build that I scribbled down infront of me, but if I remember right I timed my entry into sword sage to get the stance with my initial dip.

With the rogue variant, you only give up sneak attack damage in exchange for warrior bonus feats, and nothing else. So you would get evasion from rogue anyways. The one thing you seem to be getting from your one level dip into shadow dancer is hide in plain sight, which the collar in tome of magic can provide for 10.8k gold.

I am not seeing much of a drop in utility by adding sword sage manuevers and some shadow caster mysteries.

I'll see if I can find the actual build.

[drax75]

You don't need a sword sage variant, just the stance that gives you 2d6 sneak attack. That alone can qualify you. I don't have the exact revised build that I scribbled down infront of me, but if I remember right I timed my entry into sword sage to get the stance with my initial dip.

With the rogue variant, you only give up sneak attack damage in exchange for warrior bonus feats, and nothing else. So you would get evasion from rogue anyways. The one thing you seem to be getting from your one level dip into shadow dancer is hide in plain sight, which the collar in tome of magic can provide for 10.8k gold.

I'll see if I can find the actual build.

Hmmm that would be good if i could buy hide in plain site at will like a shadow dancer. Would save me a level dip and a feat on combat reflexes.

Then i could do rogue 3/fighter 2/SwordSage X/Shadowlord 4 or 5

Thats 4d6 sneak attack dice with that stance.

[jokeaccount]

I've been toying with a shadowlord build for my 3rd year now since our campaign takes waaaaay too long (and we play waaay to scarcely) so here are some tips I found:

1) Take shadowlord only up to lvl 4 for the shadow pounce. The discorporation at lvl 5 isn't worth it. If you are going to be using it, it is going to be in moment where you get bursted for a lot of damage (i.e 40+) which means the DC is going to be really high for you to reach. As for death attack, we all know it sucks. No need to take SL 6th level either.

2) Our DM does not allow Tome of Battle shenanigans so if you don't want to follow the maneuvers way you should actually take the shadow walker template. It is really good for an LA+1 and it has lots of RP flavor.

3) The build i'm following for now is: Rogue3/Fighter 6/Sh.Walker/Sh.lord 4 for an ECL of 14. With all the fighter levels my BAB stays higher than 3/4 and I have enough fighter feats for all the stupid Sh.Lord requirements. Skills are enough for leveling up Hide, Move Silent, UMD to max ranks. Then you can put the rest to whatever you want (search, listen, spot, disable device).

4) I use some of my fighter cross class skills to level up Spellcraft and decipher script to rank 5 each. This gives me +4 total synergy bonus on UMD for scroll activation. This is really helpful

5) For feats: All 4 fighter feats go on Sh.Lord prereqs. You got another 6 feats from your levels + human. I go with: TWF, Imp.TWF, Craven, Staggering Strike, Weapon Finesse, (w/e you want here. Can be GTWF, W.Foc or even Darkstalker).

6) The SA dice a low (2d6) but most of your damage comes from Craven. and with 5+ attacks you will dish out a good 60 flat dmg only form that.

7) Do not take shadow dancer levels. For Hide in plain sight just buy an eternal Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic) for 22k. It is an activatable that gives HiPS + bonus on Hide and MS

8) With some high dex roll and dex gloves +4 plus collar and elvenkind boots and sh.walker template etc. you easily reach 35+ modifier on Hide and MS. I've been dodging wisps even when I roll less than 5.

9) At higher levels UMD is paramount if you want to solo. There are many spells that can make your life easier when you scout or even in battle (basic stuff like mage armor and shield scrolls etc.) Also invest in wandchambers for your weapons. On one of them put a wand of wraithstrike for easy touch attacks. Always carry a wand of deathstrike and one of golemstrike for all those pesky SA immunes. Without craven you are nothing

10) If you want to multipounce you can always do it via items (since you don't have access to the BS shadowhand maneuvers). Buy anklets of translocation for swift action teleports. This will net you an extra free full attack. If you want extra cheese you can get a dip in wizard with immediate magic conjuration for abraupt jaunt (immediate action teleport). With that you achieve the basic 3 full attacks per round.

11) There are many other items that allow you to teleport around. If i recall there was one in the underdark book that allowed you to TP as a reaction to being attacked. Seek those out. Also there are some nifty feats there that require you to expend darkness casts to activate. Also pretty nice. Finally check the MiC for lots of roguish items that increase sneak attack dice etc.

[drax75]

You don't need a sword sage variant, just the stance that gives you 2d6 sneak attack. That alone can qualify you. I don't have the exact revised build that I scribbled down infront of me, but if I remember right I timed my entry into sword sage to get the stance with my initial dip.

With the rogue variant, you only give up sneak attack damage in exchange for warrior bonus feats, and nothing else. So you would get evasion from rogue anyways. The one thing you seem to be getting from your one level dip into shadow dancer is hide in plain sight, which the collar in tome of magic can provide for 10.8k gold.

I am not seeing much of a drop in utility by adding sword sage manuevers and some shadow caster mysteries.

I'll see if I can find the actual build.

I found the downside of using a item for hide in plain sight.... Dispel Magic, and mordenkainen's disjunction. I think taking that 1 extra feat, and that 1 level dip into Shadow Dancer is way better then spending on a item that can be rendered useless.

Having HiPS as a Shadow Dancer will help me avoid that little stumble.

[drax75]

I've been toying with a shadowlord build for my 3rd year now since our campaign takes waaaaay too long (and we play waaay to scarcely) so here are some tips I found:

1) Take shadowlord only up to lvl 4 for the shadow pounce. The discorporation at lvl 5 isn't worth it. If you are going to be using it, it is going to be in moment where you get bursted for a lot of damage (i.e 40+) which means the DC is going to be really high for you to reach. As for death attack, we all know it sucks. No need to take SL 6th level either.

2) Our DM does not allow Tome of Battle shenanigans so if you don't want to follow the maneuvers way you should actually take the shadow walker template. It is really good for an LA+1 and it has lots of RP flavor.

3) The build i'm following for now is: Rogue3/Fighter 6/Sh.Walker/Sh.lord 4 for an ECL of 14. With all the fighter levels my BAB stays higher than 3/4 and I have enough fighter feats for all the stupid Sh.Lord requirements. Skills are enough for leveling up Hide, Move Silent, UMD to max ranks. Then you can put the rest to whatever you want (search, listen, spot, disable device).

4) I use some of my fighter cross class skills to level up Spellcraft and decipher script to rank 5 each. This gives me +4 total synergy bonus on UMD for scroll activation. This is really helpful

5) For feats: All 4 fighter feats go on Sh.Lord prereqs. You got another 6 feats from your levels + human. I go with: TWF, Imp.TWF, Craven, Staggering Strike, Weapon Finesse, (w/e you want here. Can be GTWF, W.Foc or even Darkstalker).

6) The SA dice a low (2d6) but most of your damage comes from Craven. and with 5+ attacks you will dish out a good 60 flat dmg only form that.

7) Do not take shadow dancer levels. For Hide in plain sight just buy an eternal Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic) for 22k. It is an activatable that gives HiPS + bonus on Hide and MS

8) With some high dex roll and dex gloves +4 plus collar and elvenkind boots and sh.walker template etc. you easily reach 35+ modifier on Hide and MS. I've been dodging wisps even when I roll less than 5.

9) At higher levels UMD is paramount if you want to solo. There are many spells that can make your life easier when you scout or even in battle (basic stuff like mage armor and shield scrolls etc.) Also invest in wandchambers for your weapons. On one of them put a wand of wraithstrike for easy touch attacks. Always carry a wand of deathstrike and one of golemstrike for all those pesky SA immunes. Without craven you are nothing

10) If you want to multipounce you can always do it via items (since you don't have access to the BS shadowhand maneuvers). Buy anklets of translocation for swift action teleports. This will net you an extra free full attack. If you want extra cheese you can get a dip in wizard with immediate magic conjuration for abraupt jaunt (immediate action teleport). With that you achieve the basic 3 full attacks per round.

11) There are many other items that allow you to teleport around. If i recall there was one in the underdark book that allowed you to TP as a reaction to being attacked. Seek those out. Also there are some nifty feats there that require you to expend darkness casts to activate. Also pretty nice. Finally check the MiC for lots of roguish items that increase sneak attack dice etc.

Ok it may just be me, but that is a lot of fighter levels. I would go more rogue for Evasion, Improved Evasion, and Higher Sneak Attack damage, not to mention the skills. I would not take more than 2 fighter levels.

[jokeaccount]

As far as the item goes, Dispel Magic doesn't work since it is an instant effect. It will deactivate the form but you can reactivate it immediately after no problem. As far as disjunction, you probably won't even reach the levels required for enemies to use it and even if they do then you are allowed to hit your dm with your baseball bat right on the teeth.

For the fighter levels, remember this class needs many attacks in order to be effective so you need high BAB. Rogue generally is a crappy class and Imp.Evasion isn't that good since you rarely are going to use it and even then you probably will succeed on your reflex so no need for that. Remember, the more Rogue levels you take the more levels you waste. Fighter levels are there to cover all the ****ty feats TFSL needs otherwise we would put a better class with full BAB. You are an agile fighter, leader of a guild of high end criminals from Thesk. Not some small fry rogue running around pickin' pockets. You got underlings for that. What you are there to take care of is what they can't. And that is strong enemies.

[drax75]

As far as the item goes, Dispel Magic doesn't work since it is an instant effect. It will deactivate the form but you can reactivate it immediately after no problem. As far as disjunction, you probably won't even reach the levels required for enemies to use it and even if they do then you are allowed to hit your dm with your baseball bat right on the teeth.

For the fighter levels, remember this class needs many attacks in order to be effective so you need high BAB. Rogue generally is a crappy class and Imp.Evasion isn't that good since you rarely are going to use it and even then you probably will succeed on your reflex so no need for that. Remember, the more Rogue levels you take the more levels you waste. Fighter levels are there to cover all the ****ty feats TFSL needs otherwise we would put a better class with full BAB. You are an agile fighter, leader of a guild of high end criminals from Thesk. Not some small fry rogue running around pickin' pockets. You got underlings for that. What you are there to take care of is what they can't. And that is strong enemies.

Ok but you only need Blind Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack. Human Feat, First Level Feat, Fighter 1, and Fighter 2, thats all 4 Feats to qualify.

Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Great Two Weapon Fighting. Feat 3, Feat 6, Feat 9. (this can be modified to fit your BAB requirements)

That leaves 3 Feats for flexibility, 2 if you do pick up that 1 level in Shadow Dancer.

You could go Swashbuckler with Daring outlaw instead of picking up that 3rd level or so of fighter. Then you could potentially have at least 2 more feat.

Shadow Walker Template 1, Rogue 3, Fighter 2, Swashbuckler 10, Shadowlord 4= 20 Levels

Though the current game i want to play in wont let me play ShadowLord i just found out.... due to it being a regional class. I am trying to ask them to re-fluff it as a Fancy Assassin, but we will see.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Needs more Flicker and less Shadowdancer

[jokeaccount]

Banning you just because they are from Thesk shouldn't matter. In our game the world is custom made (no FR etc) but the Shadowlords still exist as a guild with groups in every city we go (most powerful crime syndicate). Thesk could just be their main base but that doesn't mean they only operate there. And the Knowledge - Thesk requirement is plain stupid just remove it. Also, as I said again, don't plan your build for level 20. Plan it for level 15. You ARE going to need wep. finesse and craven and staggering strike is a really nice bonus.

[drax75]

Banning you just because they are from Thesk shouldn't matter. In our game the world is custom made (no FR etc) but the Shadowlords still exist as a guild with groups in every city we go (most powerful crime syndicate). Thesk could just be their main base but that doesn't mean they only operate there. And the Knowledge - Thesk requirement is plain stupid just remove it. Also, as I said again, don't plan your build for level 20. Plan it for level 15. You ARE going to need wep. finesse and craven and staggering strike is a really nice bonus.

Nah, they may be banning like regional specific books like "Unapproachable East" and its a custom world game or i would make the argument. Honestly its not like its a over powered class so i am not sure why the hate and possibly not allowing me to play it, but meh i don't make the rules. I have a alternate melee rogue build in mind as a backup option. Keep in mind house rules are no multi class penalties.

Rogue 3, Fighter 2, SwordSage 1, Swashbuckler 5, and Assassin 9 (gives you hide in plain sight and 5d6 sneak attack). Though if you want to plan for 15 you can do

Rogue 3, Fighter 2, SwordSage 1, Swashbuckler 1, and Assassin 8


As for the level 15 thing you can still get their with Swashbuckler and 1 level dip into Swashbuckler gets you Weapon Finesse.

[ben-zayb]

If you want more versatility, may I suggest combining the Mailman Sorcerer with the Telflammar Shadowlord? Yeah, it's gross.

[drax75]

If you want more versatility, may I suggest combining the Mailman Sorcerer with the Telflammar Shadowlord? Yeah, it's gross.

???Dont you lose a lot of spell levels? whats that build look like?

[ben-zayb]

???Dont you lose a lot of spell levels? whats that build look like?

Yeah, you do. But heck, the sorcerer already has reduced versatility! Anyway, Probably low epic (20-23) to make it really work without loss of spell levels.

EDIT: Kobold shenanigans will fix that, but the potency might go down a level or two due to being feat starved

[drax75]

Yeah, you do. But heck, the sorcerer already has reduced versatility! Anyway, Probably low epic (20-23) to make it really work without loss of spell levels.

EDIT: Kobold shenanigans will fix that, but the potency might go down a level or two due to being feat starved

So what go straight sorcerer until you have the feats to qualify? Whats the benefit? Do you melee attack as a sorcerer or just focus on touch spells? even then you can only cast 1 spell a round unless you quicken/sudden it correct?

I guess i just dont see the benefits of sorc/TFShadowlord.