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ShriekingDrake
2013-05-07, 06:59 PM
One of my groups is looking at narrowing the Summon Nature's Ally selections. We decided to limit the choices to six seven creatures per level and to include only animals, plants, and some fey, magical beasts, and a few oddities here and there. Each level has to have an aquatic creature and a plant creature. We also decided to include Storm Elementals (MMIII), but one size category smaller, along with the traditional "elementals" (except for SNA VIII where we'd add the greater Storm Elemental on its own).

Given these criteria, I put together the following slate. Please recommend changes or tell me if I've got the power off, etc.

Summon Minor Ally
0 {CR 1/10-1/4}: Bat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bat.htm), Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm), Flying Fish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8996444&postcount=1360), Monkey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monkey.htm), Rat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm), Witch Grass (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/3rd-party-hazards/witch-grass-cr-1-8-tohc) (10 ft. patch)

Summon Nature's Ally
I {CR 1/2-1}: Brixashulty (https://the-southern-kingdoms.obsidianportal.com/wikis/brixashulty)RotW, Chordevoc (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050204a&page=5)RotW, Formian Worker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm), Porpoise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/porpoise.htm), Stirge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/stirge.htm), Twig Blight (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?167529-Twig-Blights!)MMII (treat as neutral), Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm)

II {CR 1-2}: Black Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm), Crocodile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm), Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (Small), Fetid FungusMMV, Hippogriff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm), Squid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/squid.htm)

III {CR 2-3}: Dire EagleRoS, Dire Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm), Leech Swarm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/bs/20040926a)Storm, Phantom Fungus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phantomFungus.htm), Shocker Lizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shockerLizard.htm), Thoqqua (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm)

IV {CR 3-4}: Dire BarracudaStorm, Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (medium), Giant Crocodile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm), Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) (CR 4 version and treat as neutral), Unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm)/Black UnicornMoF, Yellow Musk CreeperFF

V {CR 3-6}: Dread Blossom SwarmMMIII, Dryad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dryad.htm) (treat as chaotic neutral), Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (large), Orca Whale (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/whale.htm), Polar Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearPolar.htm), Rhinoceros (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rhinoceros.htm)

VI {CR 5-7}: Dire Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm), Dragonhawk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=5)5N, Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (huge), Fawkes Phoenix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15269984&postcount=30), SirineMMII, Susurrus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drUXmh2Hr4M)MMIII, Tendriculos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm)

VII {CR 7-9}: Dire RhinocerosFF, Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (greater), Giant Squid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/squidGiant.htm), Nethersight MastiffMMII, OreadFF, Treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm) (treat as neutral)

VIII {CR 7-11}: Dire Polar BearFrost, Dire Shark (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direShark.htm), Nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm) (treat as chaotic neutral), Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm), SporebatFF, Storm Elemental (greater)MMIII

IX {CR 10-14}: Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (elder), Legendary TigerMMII, Legendary SharkMMII, Octopus TreeFF (treat as neutral), Ruin ChanterMMV, SpellgauntMMII

Aquatic
Plant
Fey
Elemental
Magical Beast
Animal
Outsider
Monstrous Humanoid
Vermin
Humanoid
Giant
Dragon

The Mentalist
2013-05-09, 03:04 PM
It all looks good to me.

ShriekingDrake
2013-05-11, 07:04 AM
Thanks. I appreciate your consideration. I'm still not sure I've got the power levels right. There may also be better fits at a particular level, creatures I've overlooked. I'm particularly concerned about the fey and magical beasts and whether I have the at good levels.

The Mentalist
2013-05-11, 08:43 AM
The general rule (from other Summon Monster attempts) is

1: CR 1/3-1/2
2: CR 1/2-1
3: CR 1-3
4: CR 2-4
5: CR 3-5
6: CR 5-7
7: CR 7-8
8: CR 8-10
9: CR 9-11

quoting this from memory, it may go up two points on the last three or four

ShriekingDrake
2013-05-13, 03:31 PM
So, I think I'm pretty close. There may be a creature off at SNA VIII, I'll check it out. Where is that chart published . . . or maybe it's not published at all?

Anyway, I'd love to see more comments about the creatures I chose. I have to say, I think the idea of limiting this list to animals, plants, magical beasts, and fey makes sense from a flavor perspective.

ShriekingDrake
2013-05-17, 11:36 PM
Bump with the hope that more thoughts are burgeoning.

ShriekingDrake
2013-05-19, 04:24 PM
[deleted]

I did not mean to post that here. Wrong thread. I'll get this on the right thread. Apologies for the unnecessary bump.

backpackjack
2013-05-28, 09:45 PM
I like that you've added the fawkes phoenix to the list. It makes a good summons. Flavorful, it strikes me. I also like the list generally. It helps to have fewer choices. I never did understand why the Djinns were on the list. My only real question for you is why do you think the Pixie belongs on the IX SNA list?

ShriekingDrake
2013-05-30, 10:44 AM
Thanks.

I had the same thoughts about the djinni myself.

I put the Pixie at SNA IX because that's where it was in the PH. I'm open to other suggestions. I can see your point. They have some great spells and other mechanics (never really have worked out how those memory arrows really function in game terms). That said, not much of a chassis.

backpackjack
2013-05-30, 08:31 PM
I'm not sure what I'd replace the Pixie's with. I just think they're underpowered for SNA 9.

I also noticed your Summon Minor Ally spell. What would you add to the list for that?

ShriekingDrake
2013-05-31, 08:35 PM
Here's my first take. I had a hard time finding a minor ally plant, so I chose a PF hazard. Let me know what you think.

Summon Minor Ally
0: Bat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bat.htm), Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm), Flying Fish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8996444&postcount=1360), Monkey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monkey.htm), Rat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm), Witch Grass (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/3rd-party-hazards/witch-grass-cr-1-8-tohc) (10 ft. patch)

ddude987
2013-06-01, 02:10 PM
I think shocker lizard could be replaced. They don't quite do anything except in groups so summoning one isn't very helpful and using a higher level spell to summon more seems ineffectual.

ShriekingDrake
2013-06-02, 09:08 AM
Fair enough. I agree that one is not all that interesting, but several can certainly add an interesting effect. That said, I'm not wedded to the Shocker Lizards. What would you suggest instead? I'm trying to have a magical beast or fey at each level. I'll give some thought as to what might be a better fit. My thinking, within the parameters set by my group, was to have each creature fill different roles, rather than having similar creatures filling up the lists within each level.

I'd appreciate suggestions.

backpackjack
2013-06-04, 01:39 PM
I kind of like the Shocker Lizards, myself. They are interesting. Nonetheless, if you want to do something different, Rust Monsters have a challenge rating of 3. They could replace the Shocker Lizards. They are also interesting.

--BPJ

ShriekingDrake
2013-06-05, 09:13 PM
I kind of like the Shocker Lizards, myself. They are interesting. Nonetheless, if you want to do something different, Rust Monsters have a challenge rating of 3. They could replace the Shocker Lizards. They are also interesting.

--BPJ

I'm OK with the shocker lizards myself, but am always open for suggestions. That said, I think fighting with rust monsters is fighting with plasma fire. I'm not opposed to adding them, at least not strongly. But I assume that if I put them on the list, I'll also be more likely to be subject to them. I don't know, nothing spoils the party like a rust monster. Know what I mean?

backpackjack
2013-06-12, 07:58 PM
To my point, above, about Pixies, consider the Ruin Chanter from monster manual 5. I just stumbled upon it. That would make a good SNA IX fey. It's got powerful, unusual abilities, but isn't too powerful. It's CR 14.

ShriekingDrake
2013-06-14, 07:09 PM
Holy moley! That's a great creature. I may have to drop the pixie or place it lower down. I'd never noticed the Ruin Chanter before. Thanks.

ShriekingDrake
2013-06-22, 10:03 PM
OK, I added Ruin Chanter, dropped Pixie to SNA IV, and pulled Brown Bear.

backpackjack
2013-06-26, 02:45 PM
I like what you did with the Pixies and Ruin Chanters. Spellgaunt is a nice touch. I like that it goes after arcane casters, which is a nice complement to Ashbound.

ShriekingDrake
2013-06-29, 10:11 AM
Thanks, I'm a little concerned about the Ruin Chanters because they are CR 14. There might be better choices and I'd love to see them.

backpackjack
2013-07-26, 03:15 PM
Sorry to have been away. I still think the Ruin Chanters are OK. You should keep them. The thing I'm questioning on this list are the Dread Blossom Swarm. I don't know why, but they don't fit for me.

ShriekingDrake
2013-07-28, 08:09 AM
Sorry to have been away. I still think the Ruin Chanters are OK. You should keep them. The thing I'm questioning on this list are the Dread Blossom Swarm. I don't know why, but they don't fit for me.

Thanks for your encouragement on the Ruin Chanters. I think they are certainly interesting and offer some exciting options.

I'd welcome some other suggestions for the Dread Blossom Swarms. I'm not wedded to them and, while I think they are interesting, I can understand why they might be objectionable. They are an odd plant, quite different than many of the other plant creatures.

fencepainter
2014-02-04, 09:52 PM
Hey:

I just stumbled upon this and am sorry I didn't see it before. I really like the idea of narrowing the list. I'm kind of curious how you decided upon the six different creatures per level and what the method was behind the choices. I see what you explained in the OP, but I was hoping for a little more insight. (If I am going to bring this to my group, I need a few more arrows in my quiver.)

Also, I'm wondering if you or others have had success with using this lis and if you'd recommend making changes at this point.

ShriekingDrake
2014-02-08, 01:14 PM
So, basically, we thought that there should be fewer choices at some levels and more at others. We settled on six. Each level had to have at least a plant and an aquatic creature. The abundance of creatures would be animals, but we would also include magical beasts and fey, which seemed consistent with the druid flavor. We also included elementals.

Mostly, we looked for creatures that served different purposes, so you might have a reason to use each of the creatures at some point. We have been playing with this list. So far, so good.

I'm open to other suggestions. If you've got other ideas, I'm to hear them.

drew2u
2014-02-08, 02:32 PM
Would there be a way, for flavor, of substituting for specific creature types but possibly beefing them up for compensation? As in: Say I want to specialize in Aquatic creatures, so I could choose 4-5 other aquatic creatures of equivalent CR to substitute for the other SNA creatures. And since I choose to narrow my focus of what I can/want to summon, perhaps those that do get summoned are able to be boosted, stat-wise?

All-in-all, I like the direction the list took.

ShriekingDrake
2014-02-11, 09:50 PM
Would there be a way, for flavor, of substituting for specific creature types but possibly beefing them up for compensation? As in: Say I want to specialize in Aquatic creatures, so I could choose 4-5 other aquatic creatures of equivalent CR to substitute for the other SNA creatures. And since I choose to narrow my focus of what I can/want to summon, perhaps those that do get summoned are able to be boosted, stat-wise?

All-in-all, I like the direction the list took.

Our thinking was that with more limited choices that this would improve play a bit. At each SNA level, we tried to pick creatures that gave a robust, but fair, set of abilities. I can see where it might be fun to be able to summon something else, no doubt. And there are certainly threads that emphasize expanding the SNA lists. We were just trying to go in a different direction here. So far, this selection of creatures has worked pretty well. Nothing has been overpowering and we really like that the outsiders are off the list. These creatures seem to make more sense. That said, if you think something should be replaced, I'd really appreciate knowing what you have in mind.

fencepainter
2014-02-18, 11:41 AM
Thanks. How did you decide which Magical Beasts to include? Or could you drop them all? I think that might make the list more palatable to some.

ShriekingDrake
2014-02-28, 03:54 PM
Thanks. How did you decide which Magical Beasts to include? Or could you drop them all? I think that might make the list more palatable to some.

So, the original SNA lists have a variety of non-animal, non-plant creatures. I thought it was strange to have outsiders. But it does make some sense, to me, to have fey and magical beasts. I tried to pick magical beasts that were both flavorful and that actually added interesting abilities that might be consistent with how druids operate.

Stirges are little flying bee/bats. They're not all that powerful, but complement the rest of the first level list nicely. I tried to have at least 1 flying creature at each level.

Hippogriffs were on the original list and seemed flavorful.

Shocker Lizards are nothing to write home about, but they are interesting, especially in numbers. They allow a clever druid to use a summons as an area of effect spell. They are lizards, so they're like an animal, just adjusted a bit.

Unicorns/Black Unicorns: Unicorns were on the original list. They are a great utility creature, for good an neutral druids. I just added the Black Unicorn so that the neutral/evil druids could have a reasonable summons here.

Fawkes Phoenixes make for a nice unicorn at a higher level.

Nethersight Mastiffs are hounds with an incorporeal bite. Having a way to deal with incorporeals at this level in the form of a dog seemed fitting.

Spellgaunts were more of a whim, but an interesting one. Their anti-magic item aspect seemed an interesting and fun role-playing element.

I'm still open to adjusting anything. But, so far, these have played quite well.

fencepainter
2014-03-06, 09:36 AM
Thanks. This is helpful. I will propose this for our group.

ShriekingDrake
2014-03-12, 07:31 PM
Honestly, I wanted to put a susurrus on the list, but didn't feel like I could add an aberration.