An additional Elven trait? (3.5)

[Seharvepernfan]

People often say that elves are weak, and I agree that they don't have much mechanical punch.

Now, elves in my homebrew/houserules are a bit more robust:

+2 Dex, -2 Con
speed 35ft. with no heavier than light load
+2 vs. ench, immune to magic sleep
trance for 4 hours, -2 penalty to listen checks when trancing.
auto proficient with short bow, long bow, rapier, and longsword
+2 caster level to overcome spell resistance
+2 spellcraft
+2 craft (bowyer/fletcher)
low light vision
detect secret doors
+2 listen, search, and spot

and a few other perks I'm not going to get into.

I realize that adding a bunch of +2's is usually bad design, but eh.

However, I was thinking: you know that flaw, murky vision? I had only considered vision affecting spot checks, I never thought about concealment and the like, so it gave me an idea.

Elves now reduce the concealment of enemies by 20% (10% if that's too good?), and have ranged penalties reduced by 2.

Would adding this on top make them a bit too good? Or will it help balance them out amongst dwarves and humans?

[Eldonauran]

Elves now reduce the concealment of enemies by 20% (10% if that's too good?), and have ranged penalties reduced by 2.

:smallconfused:

:smallamused:

I love you.

Seriously. This gives the old 'elves have good eyes' a whole new meaning above a +2 to perception, or whatever. I would leave it at 10%, though. If you give 20% it would effectively reduce certain spell or feat effects that grant 20% to being completely useless against elves. Having 10% still leaves the spell useful, but gives the elves more of an edge.

[Icewraith]

I always thought elves needed something to replace the weapon proficiencies if they already get all of those from their class. The reduced concealment benefits everyone, since even wizards will have to make a ranged touch attack or similar against a blurred target or similar. But it still doesn't address the "no free feats for you since you're gimping yourself and playing an elf melee combatant" issue....


Maybe "Elves who already gain these proficiencies from their first class at character creation may select one weapon focus (Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow or Longbow) or an exotic weapon proficiency for an elf-themed weapon such as the Elven Courtblade"?

Free weapon focus if you get all the proficiencies at starting is a huge bonus for a martial character, plus you give elf fighters et. al a reason to still use their favored racial weapons according to fluff. Even if they really want a spiked-chain using elf fighter, they at least can pick up Weapon Focus: Longbow for free, which is always useful.

Edit: It STILL might not be worth that con penalty. Free weapon finesse?
Edit again, and this works for any other races that grant martial weapon proficiencies:

"If the character would gain redundant martial weapon proficiencies from race and class, she may instead select Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency in an appropriate racial weapon, or weapon finesse instead. She may replace up to two racial weapon proficiencies in this manner."

[Seharvepernfan]

:smallconfused:

:smallamused:

I love you.

Seriously. This gives the old 'elves have good eyes' a whole new meaning above a +2 to perception, or whatever. I would leave it at 10%, though. If you give 20% it would effectively reduce certain spell or feat effects that grant 20% to being completely useless against elves. Having 10% still leaves the spell useful, but gives the elves more of an edge.

I appreciate the love :]

I was aware of it making blur useless against elves, I just wasn't sure if that was a big enough deal or not.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered why I made it 20%; that's the concealment of "shadowy" illumination, and it's also the usual number from spells that grant concealment (blur, entropic shield, child of shadow). Therefor, an elf rogue (or whatever) can still deal precision damage to most things with concealment.


I always thought elves needed something to replace the weapon proficiencies if they already get all of those from their class. The reduced concealment benefits everyone, since even wizards will have to make a ranged touch attack or similar against a blurred target or similar. But it still doesn't address the "no free feats for you since you're gimping yourself and playing an elf melee combatant" issue....


Maybe "Elves who already gain these proficiencies from their first class at character creation may select one weapon focus (Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow or Longbow) or an exotic weapon proficiency for an elf-themed weapon such as the Elven Courtblade"?

Free weapon focus if you get all the proficiencies at starting is a huge bonus for a martial character, plus you give elf fighters et. al a reason to still use their favored racial weapons according to fluff. Even if they really want a spiked-chain using elf fighter, they at least can pick up Weapon Focus: Longbow for free, which is always useful.

Edit: It STILL might not be worth that con penalty. Free weapon finesse?
Edit again, and this works for any other races that grant martial weapon proficiencies:

"If the character would gain redundant martial weapon proficiencies from race and class, she may instead select Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency in an appropriate racial weapon, or weapon finesse instead. She may replace up to two racial weapon proficiencies in this manner."

I think it's because elves are supposed to be wizards (and make good rogues).

I agree that if they already qualify, they should get something else, and your suggestions are more than reasonable.

[Rubik]

Could your elves maybe choose an extra perk from a list? They either gain weapon proficiencies (or weapon focus/exotic weapon proficiency) or they ignore an extra 10% miss chance from concealment (in addition to the 10% they already do). Or possibly one or two other options, such as a spell-like ability that improves a bit as you level (Cure X Wounds Y times per day?), or Prestidigitation at will?

[Seharvepernfan]

Could your elves maybe choose an extra perk from a list? They either gain weapon proficiencies (or weapon focus/exotic weapon proficiency) or they ignore an extra 10% miss chance from concealment (in addition to the 10% they already do). Or possibly one or two other options, such as a spell-like ability that improves a bit as you level (Cure X Wounds Y times per day?), or Prestidigitation at will?

I don't know of any other race that gets to choose abilities.

[Rubik]

I don't know of any other race that gets to choose abilities.Dragonborn do. I know it's a template, but it's a no-LA template, and is obviously intended for PCs by the way it's constructed.

Shifters do. They get to choose what kind of abilities they get.

There are others, though I can't think of them off the top of my head.

[Ashtagon]

I don't know of any other race that gets to choose abilities.

You mean aside from humans and that subrace of halflings?

[ArcturusV]

Templates like Half-Devil and Half-Demon that get to choose if they want natural flight or not for an additional +1 LA. That's the only one I can think of in addition.

But yeah. It's something that is just slightly more complex. Because it would probably have to be properly worded like:

If at the time of character creation you have a level in a class which provides proficiency in the Rapier, Longsword, Longbow, or Shortbow you gain Weapon Specialization in that/those weapons. If you gain proficiency at a later time than character creation you do not get this free Weapon Specialization. If at character creation you would not have proficiency in the Rapier, Longsword, Longbow, or Shortbow, you gain Weapon Proficiency in those weapons.

As opposed to simple wordings like: Vashar gain an additional Vile Feat at level 1.

Or: 30% of Half-Devils are born with wings and natural flight. If you have wings, the Half-Devil Template is LA +3, instead of LA +2.

[Rubik]

You mean aside from humans and that subrace of halflings?*Facepalm* Right. Those, too.

[Frosty]

Here's how to make an Elf a good pick :smallbiggrin:

Standard Racial Traits
•Ability Score Racial Traits: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but their form is frail. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, and –2 Constitution.
•Size: Elves are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Type: Elves are Humanoids with the elf subtype.
•Base Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
•Languages: Elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Elves with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Celestial, Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.

Defense Racial Traits
•Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and gain a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.

Feat and Skill Racial Traits
•Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spot, Listen and Search checks.

Magical Racial Traits
•Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items.

Offense Racial Traits
•Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.

Senses Racial Traits
•Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.

[Ashtagon]

Here's how to make an Elf a good pick

*snip PRD elf*

:vaarsuvius: This looks awfully familiar.

[Frosty]

Yes, because it makes Elves actually GOOD at being mages...y'know...by giving them +2 Int :smallwink:

[Icewraith]

That +2 INT right there, I love it. Also, remember the Elven Thinblade is a finessable one-handed piercing 18-20 x2 weapon which qualifies for Exotic Weapon Master treating as two-handed at all times (for -1 +2 power attack), and can be treated as a longsword or rapier for weapon-related feats.

This would make elven two-weapon fighters less sucky than most other two-weapon fighters. They avoid some of the feat tax, have a racial dex bonus, get an Int bonus for extra skills, don't have a str penalty so they can easily get a 13 in there for power attack, and can get -1 attack/+2 damage off both weapons at about 7th level using some of their skill points on craft for Exotic Weapon Master prereqs.

Elven rogues or daring outlaws who don't care about power attack can pick up weapon focus: rapier and apply the bonuses to an elven thinblade/elven lightblade combination, since both count as rapiers.

[Ashtagon]

Yes, because it makes Elves actually GOOD at being mages...y'know...by giving them +2 Int :smallwink:

You say that like mages are in need of being made stronger :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

You say that like mages are in need of being made stronger :smallconfused:Unfortunately, elves make horrible mages due to the -2 Con -- at least, in early levels. Way too easy to get ganked before the Ultimate Cosmic Power kicks in. The +2 Int at least gives them a reason to try.

[Frosty]

Unfortunately, elves make horrible mages due to the -2 Con -- at least, in early levels. Way too easy to get ganked before the Ultimate Cosmic Power kicks in. The +2 Int at least gives them a reason to try.This. At least in Pathfinder they get d6 hitdice. I mean, a dagger can insta-gib a level 1 elf wizard...

[Ashtagon]

This. At least in Pathfinder they get d6 hitdice. I mean, a dagger can insta-gib a level 1 elf wizard...

Even for 1st level wizards... if you're in melee range, you're doing it wrong.

[Frosty]

At level 1, you've got at most 4 spell slots. 5 if you have 20 Int. There's only so much you can do...

[Ashtagon]

At level 1, you've got at most 4 spell slots. 5 if you have 20 Int. There's only so much you can do...

Wizards can do plenty of stuff besides cast spells. Off the top of my head, and using only core PRD (I assume SRD is similar)...

* They are proficient with light crossbows are available.
* Aid another.
* Alchemical items provide an interesting variety of grenade-like missiles, albeit at a price.
* At low levels, someone has to carry the party's light source, at least until everyone has glowing magic weapons or darkvision.
* Caltrops are cheap, reusable, and make handy area control devices at low levels.

A truly smart wizard doesn't need to use spells every round, because he's the goddam batman.

[Seharvepernfan]

Or you could spend 25gp and buy a scroll.

I agree that they're fine, if played intelligently.

I don't think the +2 int is necessary.

[Icewraith]

This is more about turning elves from "meh" to "hey I would actually want to make a melee character with that, even with the con penalty."

[Ernir]

But, Elves already have +2 Int (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) if they want it? :smalltongue:

Anyway:

Elves now reduce the concealment of enemies by 20% (10% if that's too good?), and have ranged penalties reduced by 2.

I like it.

Hell, I might even allow them to just flat-out ignore all concealment other than total concealment. Possibly even do a Dragonborn/Raptoran-like progression from LL vision into more advanced sight stuff. It could end up being really really good, but most races could use a killer feature (competitive with a bonus feat), in my opinion...

[Seharvepernfan]

I like it.

Hell, I might even allow them to just flat-out ignore all concealment other than total concealment. Possibly even do a Dragonborn/Raptoran-like progression from LL vision into more advanced sight stuff. It could end up being really really good, but most races could use a killer feature (competitive with a bonus feat), in my opinion...

Well, Ernir, everything you touch is gold, so of course I'd love to see that.