Buffing/nerfing sorcerers

[Jeff the Green]

So I was thinking about making Sorcerers dual-stat casters like spirit shaman and favored souls, with Intelligence governing their bonus spells, but I also want to give them something to compensate for that. A couple ideas I had were:

Metamagic specialist ACF without giving up their familiar.
Eschew Materials, Still Spell, or Silent Spell at 1st and a metamagic feat at 5/10/15/20
A bloodline feat (DrC) as a bonus at 1st.
Some combination of the above.


What do you think?

(Oh, as a sidenote, this would be for a campaign with Wizards and Clerics nerfed out of viability.)

[Sith_Happens]

Definitely "all of the above."

Normally I'd object to the dual-stat casting, but if they aren't actually competing with any full-list single-stat casters then it should be fine.

[Grim Reader]

Honestly, more spells known is what would make Sorcerers more fun to play.

[Waker]

I think what would make Sorcerers more fun to play is class features. Getting the stuff on the list and maybe a few more skills wouldn't be terrible.
If I were remaking the Sorcerer at least one thing I'd do would increase their caster level a few times. Something like +3 by level 20. Sorcerers are supposed to be inherently magical, why are they evenly matched with Wizards and get their spells later?

[ericgrau]

Sorcerers don't need bonus spells that much so it's not a huge nerf. That said, each of the above is only worth 1 feat, and they aren't that great except for the general metamagic feats. I know a lot of playgrounders would jump to take the ACF one, but you usually don't need your move action so it's actually not that special. I would let the player take any one of his choice off your list at level 1, except the metamagic not specifically named.

For silent spell be sure to know the listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) rules, that casting must be in a strong voice and that you can usually take a 10 on move silently outside of combat. Without knowing stealth rules it's a useless feat.

I think this is already devolving into a "sorcerer fix" thread even when the OP says he nerfed clerics & wizards into uselessness. We should focus on things that match the OP's drawback and nothing more.

[Amnestic]

I think what would make Sorcerers more fun to play is class features.

They get a Familiar! What more could they ask for?

[Sith_Happens]

They get a Familiar! What more could they ask for?

An animal companion?

[Silva Stormrage]

An animal companion?

They can get that too

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard

[Sith_Happens]

They can get that too

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard

That's a Ranger animal companion, it doesn't count.:smalltongue:

[Immabozo]

Illumian can change that second stat to dex or con, to make them less MAD. So it's not a huge nerf (or, since they get so many spells per day anyway, they may not care, in effect doing something very similar).

As far as making them better, I agree, more spells known (not necessarily per day), as far as I know, what makes wizards T1 and Sorcerers T2 is the huge difference in (at least possible) spells known.

Although, I think that is an uneven buff for the nerf (in favor of the buff).

I would think something like "Attracts magic to you naturally, often in a negative way, acting like a lightning rod for magic, making all magical effects within 30 feet, good or bad, also affect the Sorcerer." would be both a buff and a nerf that fits the fluff, scales with levels and is potentially scary and will affect how the player plays the class and how people react to him.

[Jeff the Green]

I would think something like "Attracts magic to you naturally, often in a negative way, acting like a lightning rod for magic, making all magical effects within 30 feet, good or bad, also affect the Sorcerer." would be both a buff and a nerf that fits the fluff, scales with levels and is potentially scary and will affect how the player plays the class and how people react to him.

See, that's really cool but also really scary from both a DM and a player perspective. On the one hand, that means that the Sorcerer automatically shares all of the Cleric's buffs, including the Range: Personal ones like Divine Power. On the other hand, that means more damage. Over all, that means more player deaths and more trivialized encounters, neither of which I like.

The reason I want to make them a dual-stat class is that, since the tier-1 casters are gone, all of the non-fixed list casters are dual-stat except sorcerers. They already have the advantage of the best list, so I don't want to give them any more advantage.

[Immabozo]

See, that's really cool but also really scary from both a DM and a player perspective. On the one hand, that means that the Sorcerer automatically shares all of the Cleric's buffs, including the Range: Personal ones like Divine Power. On the other hand, that means more damage. Over all, that means more player deaths and more trivialized encounters, neither of which I like.

The reason I want to make them a dual-stat class is that, since the tier-1 casters are gone, all of the non-fixed list casters are dual-stat except sorcerers. They already have the advantage of the best list, so I don't want to give them any more advantage.

Yeah, its an interesting one, although it also means if another nearby is ressed, the sorcerer is too. But I see your point.

Maybe roll off the Wild Magic list? Maybe with a bonus the higher the Sorc level?