[PF] Master Sumonner

[Azif13]

Yesterday I took a look at the sumonner because I'll start a new campaign soon and I didn't know what to do. I had never paid attention to the sumonner ("Gosh" I thought "I can just play a conjuration Wizard!"), but to my surprise I found this:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner

Wow, that was a surprise. So, my eidolon is weaker and it can't use shield ally, but if it is not sumonned I can have as many SM spells active as I want. Moreover, I can cast SM 5+cha mod times a day of the highest level I can, so at level 17, with 32 cha more or less, I can cast SMIX 16 times/day and they last for 1 min/level instead of 1 round/level. And I can still cast spells. And I can have evolutions on myself (since I won't be sumonning my eidolon). Oh! I get Augment sumonning as a bonus feat at level 2. It's me, or this is soooo broken?

[Keneth]

Of course it's broken, even the standard summoner can be pretty broken in the right hands. I ran a full adventure path with a master summoner solo, and aside from using a lot more consumables, I didn't have any real problems. It's one of those things that a DM should say no to if they're not prepared to handle it.

[Der_DWSage]

...And then it all gets undone by a single Dismissal / Mass Hold Monster / Circle Against [Alignment]. Or the almighty Mage's Disjunction.

It's broken in its own right, but not as overpowered as you make it out to be. All you're really doing is taking the party Fighter's job, and dragging your turn out to be obnoxiously slow as you make your own party, with booze elementals and hooker spirits.

[Azernak0]

Maybe it is just me but I don't see how this is broken, at least compared to the average Summoner. A rotten Eidolon for 2 more uses Summon Monster that can be stacked? Seems like Conjuration Wizard.

[Keneth]

...And then it all gets undone by a single Dismissal / Mass Hold Monster / Circle Against [Alignment]. Or the almighty Mage's Disjunction.

Dismissal only affects a single creature. Mass hold monster and disjunction are 9th level spells and therefore largely irrelevant for the vast majority of the game, plus they're as much a danger to a summoner than any other class. Magic circle is cute since most of the strongest summons are not physical attackers, not to mention you can summon different alignments, and even if you don't, many have spell resistance and the effect immediately ends if the caster attacks the creature or tries to force the circle against them. It all sounds well in theory, but in practice a master summoner can steamroll dungeons on his own.


Seems like Conjuration Wizard.

The end result is a lot like a conjurer, but until high-mid levels, a master summoner generally wipes the floor with conjurers.

[Chained Birds]

Not to mention they can Gate 5+Charisma Mod per day.

[Azif13]

Dismissal only affects a single creature. Mass hold monster and disjunction are 9th level spells and therefore largely irrelevant for the vast majority of the game, plus they're as much a danger to a summoner than any other class. Magic circle is cute since most of the strongest summons are not physical attackers, not to mention you can summon different alignments, and even if you don't, many have spell resistance and the effect immediately ends if the caster attacks the creature or tries to force the circle against them. It all sounds well in theory, but in practice a master summoner can steamroll dungeons on his own.



The end result is a lot like a conjurer, but until high-mid levels, a master summoner generally wipes the floor with conjurers.

You just said what I was thinking, thanks :smallcool:

[Azernak0]

The end result is a lot like a conjurer, but until high-mid levels, a master summoner generally wipes the floor with conjurers.
Right, obviously it gets a whole heck of a lot more Summons. But I wouldn't even call it better than the baseline Summoner and wouldn't call it inherently broken.

[graymachine]

...you make your own party, with booze elementals and hooker spirits.

You have won the internets.

Did you mean blackjack elementals and hooker spirits?

I disagree though; as someone else pointed out, setting aside the 9th level spells as largely irrelevant, the remaining counters have difficulty keeping up with the summoner churning out summons, especially if the have even a few rounds of prep.

I would also recommend looking at the Alternates in Ultimate Magic; they proved even more variety on top of the Summoner's decent flexibility. If I recall correctly, you can focus on your Eidolon at the cost of other summons, or focus on more varied an powerful summons by ditching your Eidolon.

[Keneth]

But I wouldn't even call it better than the baseline Summoner and wouldn't call it inherently broken.

I guess it depends at which point you consider a class broken. Summoner messed up a lot of dynamics when it came out, and master summoner or synthesist are both extreme powerhouses in their own right. They're broken in the same way an optimized T1 or T2 caster is broken, except they're easier to play for the most part, and they're stronger at low-to-mid levels. Whether or not they're better than the base summoner, that's debatable, each has its own niche.

[Azif13]

Now that you mention it... how would you build a synthesist in general terms? I think it is an interesting option too.

When I say broken I was exaggerating, don't take my words literally. A sumonner cannot compete with the sheer versatility of the wizard or the cleric and I've played a druid with augment sumoninng and it is a beast thanks to battlefield control and wild shape. I just pointed out that the Master sumonner can be very powerful if played right. He can, in almost every situation, just say "I have the right summon just for the ocasion". Who needs to prepare spells when you can just summon the right monster/creature/whatever? And he has a lot more summoning than a Wizard (it is right in the numbers) and those summoning doesn't even take spell slots.

Anyway, if I had to play a summoner I'd make a mount eidolon and pick a long spear XD Just for fun, although I think the master summoner is better.

[Chained Birds]

Synthesist Summoners don't take too much effort to create. You become SAD (Well, more SAD than usual) so you only need to focus on CHA and CON.
A word of warning, always try to keep you CON score the same as your Eidolon form or else you may die like a Barbarian getting out of Rage. It is not too big of a problem at low levels, but a simple +1 CON Modifier at higher levels may cause 10-20 HP lose which may be very dangerous for a class with low HD.

There are a lot of problems with the Synthesist mechanics in regards to if you keep your armor or not, and how to heal you Eidolon (Your Temp HP). The armor thing is something you'd have to ask your DM about, the Temp HP is healed though the same ways you usually heal an Eidolon (The Eidolon Healing spells).

In regards to feats, you have to determine what form you are going to take and that the feats that are most appropriate. Grappler build will need grappling feats, Pounce build could use some Natural Attack related feats, and Kali (Mult-weapon form) build would need stuff like Multi-Weapon Fighting.

[Keneth]

Also gundolon.

[Frosty]

Synthesist Summoners don't take too much effort to create. You become SAD (Well, more SAD than usual) so you only need to focus on CHA and CON.
A word of warning, always try to keep you CON score the same as your Eidolon form or else you may die like a Barbarian getting out of Rage. It is not too big of a problem at low levels, but a simple +1 CON Modifier at higher levels may cause 10-20 HP lose which may be very dangerous for a class with low HD.

There are a lot of problems with the Synthesist mechanics in regards to if you keep your armor or not, and how to heal you Eidolon (Your Temp HP). The armor thing is something you'd have to ask your DM about, the Temp HP is healed though the same ways you usually heal an Eidolon (The Eidolon Healing spells).

In regards to feats, you have to determine what form you are going to take and that the feats that are most appropriate. Grappler build will need grappling feats, Pounce build could use some Natural Attack related feats, and Kali (Mult-weapon form) build would need stuff like Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Can you take Pounce ability on your Eidolon as Synthesist summoner? Don't you need quadraped form for that? Is that legal is the summoner is a humanoid?

[Amnestic]

Can you take Pounce ability on your Eidolon as Synthesist summoner? Don't you need quadraped form for that? Is that legal is the summoner is a humanoid?

I can't see any restriction on what type of Eidolon you can have in the Synthesist description. The only limiting factor is "The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist." so you could just have a medium quadruped and it should work fine.

[Slipperychicken]

All you're really doing is taking the party Fighter's job, and dragging your turn out to be obnoxiously slow as you make your own party, with booze elementals and hooker spirits.

I played one in an all-caster party, and it was actually quite convenient. The summons served as a wonderful meat-shield, and everyone appreciated not taking damage.

Also, after you've taken Extend Spell, SF (Conjuration), and Augment Summoning and are scratching your head while looking at the general feats list, you can start taking Extra Summons to increase your staying power and nova potential.

Master Summoners can nova so hard... Spam summons, cast Summon Eidolon, buff them all, sit back, and enjoy the show.

[Frosty]

Wait, if you use a spell, you can have your summons AND your eidolon out at the same time?

[Keneth]

Yes, summoning your eidolon via spell doesn't impose any limits.

[Chained Birds]

Wait, if you use a spell, you can have your summons AND your eidolon out at the same time?

For Master Summoners at least. Or are you referring to the spell that instantly summons your Eidolon to your side?

[Killer Angel]

Yesterday I took a look at the sumonner because I'll start a new campaign soon and I didn't know what to do. I had never paid attention to the sumonner ("Gosh" I thought "I can just play a conjuration Wizard!"), but to my surprise I found this:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner

Wow, that was a surprise. So, my eidolon is weaker and it can't use shield ally, but if it is not sumonned I can have as many SM spells active as I want. Moreover, I can cast SM 5+cha mod times a day of the highest level I can, so at level 17, with 32 cha more or less, I can cast SMIX 16 times/day and they last for 1 min/level instead of 1 round/level. And I can still cast spells. And I can have evolutions on myself (since I won't be sumonning my eidolon). Oh! I get Augment sumonning as a bonus feat at level 2. It's me, or this is soooo broken?

Well, the Eidolon is the bread and butter of Summoner, so I don't think that you can call "broken" a thing that weakens your main feature.
In the end, the goodies it gives you are very strong, but no, I wouldn't call it broken.

[Renen]

That's not a spell. To summon him to your side u use a class ability. He means the summon eidolon spell.

[Slipperychicken]

He means the summon eidolon spell.

That's correct. You can't use the Summon Monster SLA while the Eidolon is summoned, but you can use the Summon Eidolon spell while the duration is still going.


Can you take Pounce ability on your Eidolon as Synthesist summoner?

Yes, this makes the Synthesist incredibly strong. So much so that it was banned from PFS.


Don't you need quadraped form for that?

Correct, the Eidolon does need the Quadraped base form to take the evolution.


Is that legal is the summoner is a humanoid?

It is legal. The summoner's type is irrelevant to evolutions.

[Frosty]

On another note, the Master Summoner is also banned from PFS for some reason.

[stack]

I don't think synthesist was banned for power, but because of the never-ending confusion with how it works. Master summoner I believe was banned because it can really slow a game down if the player isn't on the ball. Or even if he is.

[Renen]

What's PDA.

[Keneth]

Well, the Eidolon is the bread and butter of Summoner, so I don't think that you can call "broken" a thing that weakens your main feature.

Have you actually played a summoner? I mean an eidolon is a cool feature and can get pretty powerful, but it's hardly the main feature of the summoner, just the most distinctive one. It's the summons and the spellcasting that really make the summoner scary. As a DM, I'll take the eidolon over stackable summons any day.

[Slipperychicken]

What's PDA.

Personal Digital Assistant, or Personal Data Assistant. It was an early attempt in the 1990's to make smartphones, although they did not at that time have nearly the same capabilities.

Public Display of Affection. Refers to when a couple will kiss or hug in a very visible public place, or in a highly dramatic attention-grabbing fashion, often to the disdain of onlookers. Usually considered trite and obnoxious, but many couples are not so easily deterred.

Private Defense Agency. A theoretical libertarian idea of what would replace the military and police in a totally free-market society. Essentially an agency which contracts out mercenaries to whoever could afford them.

[Renen]

friggin auto correct. I meant PFS

[Slipperychicken]

friggin auto correct. I meant PFS

Pathfinder Society (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety). It's an organization which gets Pathfinder games together and runs them according to a set of rules and in a very specific campaign setting, creating a more standardized experience. Often, material will be banned from PFS games for being overly-powerful or game-breaking.

[Azif13]

Well, the Eidolon is the bread and butter of Summoner, so I don't think that you can call "broken" a thing that weakens your main feature.
In the end, the goodies it gives you are very strong, but no, I wouldn't call it broken.

As Keneth said, I don't think the eidolon is the main feature, what's more, if you take the Master summoner archetype, your main feature would be the SM SLA. I won't even summon my eidlon most of the time, I'd even get those evolution points and make my summoner able to fly or something.

[Chained Birds]

Have you actually played a summoner? I mean an eidolon is a cool feature and can get pretty powerful, but it's hardly the main feature of the summoner, just the most distinctive one. It's the summons and the spellcasting that really make the summoner scary. As a DM, I'll take the eidolon over stackable summons any day.

Got to love them lower level spells like Haste. :smallsmile:

But yes, an Eidolon is simply an Animal Companion that has more utility and overall power than an actual AC. This is why Master Summoner is my favorite form of Summoner, as it fits the name best.

Synthesist also always felt off to me due to the whole "wearing" your Eidolon. I get it, but it really doesn't scream Summoner like some guy who can bring forth an army of minions from other planes to serve his whims.

[Frosty]

Got to love them lower level spells like Haste. :smallsmile:

But yes, an Eidolon is simply an Animal Companion that has more utility and overall power than an actual AC. This is why Master Summoner is my favorite form of Summoner, as it fits the name best.

Synthesist also always felt off to me due to the whole "wearing" your Eidolon. I get it, but it really doesn't scream Summoner like some guy who can bring forth an army of minions from other planes to serve his whims.this is why I renamed the Synthesist Summoner class to the Ironman Armor class. :smallsmile:

[Amnestic]

Pathfinder Society (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety). It's an organization which gets Pathfinder games together and runs them according to a set of rules and in a very specific campaign setting, creating a more standardized experience. Often, material will be banned from PFS games for being overly-powerful or game-breaking.

Aren't some of the rules game-breaking in and of themselves though? Pretty sure I've seen tale of situations which forced the DM or the party into utterly ridiculous situations that would never see the light of day in real play, solely due to the rules and constraints of PFS.

[Slipperychicken]

Aren't some of the rules game-breaking in and of themselves though? Pretty sure I've seen tale of situations which forced the DM or the party into utterly ridiculous situations that would never see the light of day in real play, solely due to the rules and constraints of PFS.

Never played it myself, can't say anything about how good it is.

[Killer Angel]

Have you actually played a summoner? I mean an eidolon is a cool feature and can get pretty powerful, but it's hardly the main feature of the summoner, just the most distinctive one. It's the summons and the spellcasting that really make the summoner scary. As a DM, I'll take the eidolon over stackable summons any day.

Yes, I have, and i use both the summons AND the Eidolon. They gave you different things and different abilities, so it's a matter of what you need more in that moment.
Summon Monster is friggin' powrful, but (again, IMO), you lose abilities and power on the creature that usually stays with you for a longer time.

The Master Summoner is a sort of PF answer to malkonvoker. You are the king of summons... so what? I like my eidolon, and i like to summon it with the spell, side by side with summoned monsters.

[grarrrg]

A word of warning, always try to keep you CON score the same as your Eidolon form ...but a simple +1 CON Modifier at higher levels may cause 10-20 HP lose which may ...

Eidolons only have a max of 15HD (3/4 progression), so 15 is the maximum with only a +1 CON difference. [/nitpick]


There are a lot of problems with the Synthesist mechanics in regards to if you keep your armor or not, and how to heal you Eidolon (Your Temp HP). The armor thing is something you'd have to ask your DM about, the Temp HP is healed though the same ways you usually heal an Eidolon (The Eidolon Healing spells).

Actually, Armor is one of the VERY few things they clarified (the Temp HP thing being the other one).
From the Ultimate Magic Errata:

While fused, the synthesist
loses the benefits of his armor.

All the rest of your gear stays put, but your Armor essentially stops existing.


, the Temp HP is healed though the same ways you usually heal an Eidolon

Well, the "usual" ways of healing an Eidolon are almost exactly the same as the ways you heal anything else.
Synthesist Eidolon-Suit can only be healed by the Rejuvenate Eidolon spells (and possibly the Fast Healing evolution...although that one is still unclear).

[Chained Birds]

Eidolons only have a max of 15HD (3/4 progression), so 15 is the maximum with only a +1 CON difference. [/nitpick]

Okay... Though I was at least correct with my warning.

Actually, Armor is one of the VERY few things they clarified (the Temp HP thing being the other one).
From the Ultimate Magic Errata:

All the rest of your gear stays put, but your Armor essentially stops existing.

Is the errata there? Cool! I'm glad to hear that.

Well, the "usual" ways of healing an Eidolon are almost exactly the same as the ways you heal anything else.
Synthesist Eidolon-Suit can only be healed by the Rejuvenate Eidolon spells (and possibly the Fast Healing evolution...although that one is still unclear).

Yep, Rejuvenate is the only way. Though the Fast Healing one would be interesting.

I don't mind people correcting me. But nitpicking makes me furious! :smallfurious:

[grarrrg]

I don't mind people correcting me. But nitpicking makes me furious! :smallfurious:

Not sure if "blue text sarcastic" or "blue text because SO angry and blue fire is actually hotter than red fire"...

And really, only the first was intended to be nitpicky, the others were intended to be generally useful clarifications of information, which if you really want to be nitpicky can seem like nitpicking, but given that the corrections came from a latter source that people may-or-may-not know exists, because it is errata, and that doesn't always filter out properly, and they STILL haven't done ANY errata for Ultimate Combat, which irks me to no end, because there are things that need fixing so bad that I can't believe they didn't catch them before they printed them.
And that's how Equestria was made.

[Chained Birds]

...they STILL haven't done ANY errata for Ultimate Combat, which irks me to no end, because there are things that need fixing so bad that I can't believe they didn't catch them before they printed them.

Is the Errata you seek have to deal with the Monk? Or is it something else?

(I know it is off subject, but I'm a bit curious. :smallsmile:)

[Frosty]

I heard something to do with the Tetori monk?