Butcher V Cannibal V Monster

[doliest]

Okay, battle royal of the ages here- more specifically, battle royal between killers.

Spoilers will inevitably follow for the three series at work.

The three contestants are as follow-

Dexter 'The Bay Harbor Butcher' Morgan; Miami Metro PD, Blood Splatter Analyst, Dark Avenger etc. ; A lab technician who, scarred by his mothers death, has a pathological need to kill, and so chooses to direct his urges against other killers.

Hannibal 'The Cannibal' Lector; A mad psychiatrist, if mad is even the right word for such a genius, who earned his name for devouring portions of his victims. We'll be taking him before he is caught, if only to keep things fair.

Johann 'The Monster' Liebert; A child with an utterly deformed mind, grown up to be a man whos' only goal is to be the one left standing at the end of the world. Johann is charismatic, incredibly intelligent, and utterly without restraint- Dexter will not kill the innocent, and Lector, if nothing else, has his ego.

The three of them are to be let loose within one city, under the following conditions-

Johann, for some inscrutable reason has come to (Hmmm, random city none have a true power base in...) Chicago. While within Chicago (where he has assumed the identity of the son of a wealthy elderly couple who are quite close to the mayor) he began his killings again, where-upon Dr.Lector was called in as a consult for a series of killings that seem to be suicides, but a local investigator just isn't sure about.

Lector sees, at the least, that this is definitely the work of another individual and grows interested- even he hasn't seen the likes of this before. He decides to look into the situation and begin tracking this new 'Monster.' Being Dr.Lector, he will end up grabbing a snack.

Dexter Morgan, in the city for vacation reasons, ends up also called in as a consult- for a body dumped by Lector, (found for reasons I'll leave to the thread) and, feelings his dark passenger riled, begins his hunt for the Cannibal.

All the while, Johanns' business will not conclude while he has one, and likely soon to be two, other killers on his trail- dogged monsters in whom he may finally have met his match.

Who will win? I leave that to you.

A few 'spec' first;

Killer Breakdown

Dexter Morgan

Advantages;
+Connections: Law Enforcement. He has easiest access to police information.
+Physical Shape: Johann and Lector are no slouches, but Dexter does appear in the best shape out of the three of them, likely the most trained as well.
+Forensic Scientist: While primarily blood focused, Dexter is heavily educated in his chosen field.
+Anonymity: Dexter Morgan is a nobody- unrecognized on the street, and thus the hardest to pin.

Weaknesses;
+Police: Dexter, once suspected, is easy to identify if one looks in the right places.
+Instability: The other two have their monsters undercontrol- Dexter is far less stable in this regard, needing to kill and questioning himself while trying to cling to a moral code.
+ Family: Leading back to both points, Dexter has family. People to hurt to get to him- and he loses his cool when they're in danger.

Hannibal Lector
+Psychoanalyst: Dr.Lector can and will have you pinned as soon as you walk into the room.
+Reputation: He is also nearly above reproach- a highly respected man who has done work for the FBI.
+Focus and Patience: Lector, more than Dexter with his 'passenger' and Johan with his 'monster' knows who and what he is. He kills when he wants to, and nothing diverts him.

Weaknesses-
+ Ego: He can control it for a while, but ultimately Lector is an egotistic man.
+ Eating Habits: Connected to the above actually- for a man with so much control over when he kills, he seems to believe himself incapable of being caught- he kills for his reasons and won't let anything stop him once he has decided to.

Johann Liebert
+Trained: Johann has been groomed for this, literally, since childhood. He is the perfect killer.
+Charismatic: While Lector certainly has charisma, Johann takes it to the next level- his ability to get people to trust him would verge on 'Idiot Ball' territory if he didn't demonstrate how good he was at it!
+Followers- And like TDK Joker, he has a tendency to attract those of a certain kind of crazy to him to do his bidding.

Weaknesses-
(Man these are hard for Johann)
-Doesn't like the direct way: Johann seems to prefer a 'hands off' form of attack, where he convinces people to kill themselves, or gets others to kill. Seems to play to his ideology.


So, Giantitp, which killer is left standing in Chicago?

[Killer Angel]

Dexter Morgan


Weaknesses;
+Instability: The other two have their monsters undercontrol- Dexter is far less stable in this regard, needing to kill and questioning himself while trying to cling to a moral code.
+ Family: Leading back to both points, Dexter has family. People to hurt to get to him- and he loses his cool when they're in danger.


About the instability: Lector and Liebert are basically the Perfect Target for Morgan. He won't suffer for moral problems, hunting them.
Family is a weak point, but he's on vacation... his family is on the other side of USA, so they don't count (unless backtracked in Miami, a thing that Lector is capable of, but at that point we must expand the scenario).

[comicshorse]

I'm not familiar with Johann Liebert what is he from ?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm not familiar with Johann Liebert what is he from ?
The anime/manga "Monster", which is utterly superb and essentially what you'd get if Hitchcock made an animated series. Realistic psychological drama.

[HandofShadows]

Dexter wins I think. Only Dexter would know he is hunting two other killers. At best they would consider him a cop (minor threat), they would NOT know he was a killer on par with them. That gives Dexter a huge advantage.

[thethird]

Also Dexter imho has the added benefit of practice and adaptability. He has hunted killers for a long long time. And some of those have been crazy good in their areas too, but bite the dust when put against him. Johan and Lector are both good at killing, yes, but Dex kills killers.

Are we talking about the dexter in the show or the dexter in the books? (they are different)

---

Also for those of you that don't know of Monster, or you liked it, there is this (http://www.imdb.com/news/ni52061559/).

[Killer Angel]

Dexter wins I think. Only Dexter would know he is hunting two other killers. At best they would consider him a cop (minor threat), they would NOT know he was a killer on par with them. That gives Dexter a huge advantage.

Plus, he's very good in close combat. Even if you're trained, if you don't expect a good fighter, he will surprise you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=in1dJrdxRfc#t=31s).

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I'm not as familiar with Johann, but I think I'd give this almost unconditionally to Lecter. For one, I disagree that Dexter's morals aren't going to come into play; even given that his opponents are also killers, the Hannibal Lecture got its name for a reason. Someone as unstable as Morgan, clinging to as tenuous a moral framework to keep himself functional, is a prime target for Lecter; Dexter's best shot would be to take Hannibal out from a distance, before he can get under Dexter's skin, but that isn't his style and ritual is a big part of the flimsy system of control Dexter has placed around himself. He may be a good fighter, but Hannibal isn't about to chance a physical confrontation; if he doesn't talk Morgan into doing himself in or worse, he'll drug him into oblivion and literally eat him alive.

I can't really imagine Johann's charisma outdoing Hannibal, either. I mean, trusting someone is one thing, but Hannibal Lecter once talked a guy into cutting his own face off with a shard of glass. An indirect style is going to be a big weakness against Lecter, too, at least judging by Verger's various attempts to get other people to kill him in Hannibal. Pushing him to suicide obviously won't work, either, since Lecter's egotism will actually be a strength against it.

[ThirdEmperor]

Hannibal wins by his namesake lecture.

Truth is, he's got almost everything the other two do and more. He's easily Dexter's equal in hunting serial killers due to all the cases he's been called to consult on, and is quite literally the standard to which other charismatic and 'psychological' killers are held.

Odds are he would already be familiar with both of his opponents, as he seems to keep tabs on other murderers, so I think Dexter would be the first to go- Hannibal would neatly deduce Dexter's MO and moral code from his killings, then proceed to break him down with mindgames before sending him off to kill Johann.

The question then becomes, who would win in a fight, Dexter or Johann? I'd give it to Johann, having been given access to better training then the self taught Dexter, and also, again, because of Dex's vulnerability to mindgames. Johann might even be able to send him back after Hannibal, which would make for an interesting storyline, both the Cannibal and Monster trying to manipulate the Butcher against the other.


At the end of the day though, I find it hard to see Dex killing either of them. Johann is just too good at what he does, and Hannibal, besides his brutal efficiency in combat, would simply not let it come to a straight fight.

So that leaves Johann and Lecter. Again, I'd say the Cannibal wins out. This time because of his willingness to get up close and personal. While Johann tries to kill him through Dexter and other envoys before trying himself, Hannibal will be sending the pawns on a wild goose chase while all the time closing on Johann himself. When he strikes, it will be with overwhelming advantage.


Alternate Outcome- Dexter kills Johann, Dex and Lecter team up. :smalleek:

[The Glyphstone]

One's a forensic analyst who slaughters other serial killers in plastic-wrapped rooms. One's a psychologist who eats his enemies with fava beans and Chianti. They FightCommit Crime. (http://theyfightcrime.org/)

[Killer Angel]

Dexter's best shot would be to take Hannibal out from a distance, before he can get under Dexter's skin, but that isn't his style and ritual is a big part of the flimsy system of control Dexter has placed around himself. He may be a good fighter, but Hannibal isn't about to chance a physical confrontation; if he doesn't talk Morgan into doing himself in or worse, he'll drug him into oblivion and literally eat him alive.

Well, I could imagine Hannibal, wrapped in cellophane, talking his way out. It would be a mind game worth watching.

[Bhu]

Hannibal murders a serial killer trained in martial arts tonight and snaps a mans neck with almost supernatural ease.

I'm unfamiliar with the other two but he doesn't seem like an easy target.

[Eldan]

The question then becomes, who would win in a fight, Dexter or Johann? I'd give it to Johann, having been given access to better training then the self taught Dexter...


Just a minor nitpick here. Dexter is not self-taught. It comes up in an early season when he's talking to Doakes, he took additional self-defence and close combat courses during his police training.

[pita]

Johann will be easily recognized, I think. A cult starts around him, both Dexter and Hannibal will figure it out. Dexter will try to kill him, but Hannibal has no reason to kill him. Johann is every bit a cultured gentleman. Dexter can get the drop on him and murder him if he can get him alone, and if not, he'll just wait. He's cautious enough for that.
Hannibal notices Johann disappears, and probably also Dexter's instability. He starts to mess with Dexter's head, sending him on wild goose chases, and making him think he has a new friend (Dexter's biggest weakness - He's not killed people in the past because they were friendly). If Hannibal makes Dexter think about how his victims deserve it, which they do in Hannibal's mind, he can easily get the better of him. He could keep him on for a while and then eat him or turn on him. If Dexter figures out who Hannibal is before Hannibal can get his hooks into him, though, Hannibal dies quickly.
Though this really makes me want the last season of Dexter to be a Dexter/Hannibal crossover. Mads Mikkelson and Michael C Hall being creepy at each other for a season would be awesome.

[tomandtish]

Bear in mind I have also not watched Monster (but I'll put it into my Netflix or Funimation queue pretty quick), so my read on one of the character's is based only on what I'm getting here. I'm also assuming Lector is still in his FBI consulting phase for my take.

Dexter and Lector will both be asked to consult on Johanns' crimes in their areas of expertise. Because of the wealthy (i.e. upper class) connection, Lector will make first contact with Johann and will be the first to figure out who Johann is. Lector will also see Dexter as a potential threat with his skills, but will NOT be aware of his extracurricular activities simply because Dexter will never spend enough time alone with him for him to get a read on him. Dexter avoids situations where people can read him like the plague and I cannot see him spending any more time in a strange city with a strange psychiatrist than he absolutely has to.

I see Lector attempting to steer Johann and Dexter at each other to see who comes out on top. He'll offer his patented "useful" advice that actually isn't all that helpful but seems to be (if you watch the TV show you know what I mean). If Johann wins, Dexter is no longer a threat to Lector. If Dexter wins then Lector has further strengthened his credibility with law enforcement.

What I can't judge accurately is how sloppy Johann is. Both Dexter and Lector actually suffer from the same problem: If anyone ever took a serious look at them, their covers would fall apart pretty quick. Dexter never really had that (Doakes was looking for the wrong thing). I'm also not aware of how Johann kills, so I can't judge effective tactics. My general take is that once Dexter learns who Johann is, then Johann is dead. Likewise, once he learns about and targets Lector, Lector is toast. However, if either can get the drop on Dexter before he expects them (drugs, etc.), then they can win.

Note: If Dexter kills Johann, Lector may take a shot at Dexter (either directly or by proxy), since Dexter is a threat to Lector both professionally and as a killer (if Lector learns of that aspect of his character). However, I'm not sure Lector would necessarily kill Johann if Johann kills Dexter. Lector seems to love hiding in the shadows of a more visible killer and mimicking their style, so if Johann is a "visible" killer, he would be perfectly happy to let him draw the attention while he hides the occasional aperitif in the chaos.

[Vknight]

Hannibal also had FBI contacts before his placement in a mental hospital

He also has an amazing set of senses. He can smell and identify perfumes.
He has a photographic memory
He wears soft soled shoes to not make noise when he walks
He's proven a capable hypnotist
And also has training in fighting

-

Dexter
Dexter may not have a much control as the others but like Hannibals biggest foe that also is his greatest strength seeing through the eyes of others
Its also a weakness in that his vision can get clouded and his judgement impaired or jumping to a conclusion
Dexter can't identify a killer he can tell when a killer will kill again though

-

Don't know who the last guy is

[thethird]

I was just thinking that this would be great fan fic material, perhaps add some cops for good measure. Charlie Crews and Patrick Jane would be my go to town pair.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It bears mention that the difference between book Dexter and show Dexter because they'd approach this situation differently. Show Dexter needs a crime to go off of to find a serial killer which means Johan or Hannibal need to leave behind a body and they would also have to fall into the Code for him to go after him in the first place. This is not a problem with Johan...but Dexter could not go after Hannibal. If this is in the days of Hannibal's FBI profiling then he is a way too high-profile target for Dexter to go at safely and, before all else, Dexter's Code is about keeping him safe more then anything else. Hannibal is a no-go for Dexter...himself that is. Show Dexter has shown some capacity at manipulation himself. Not socially mind you, his social manipulations are...well..a bit laughable when compared to Hannibal or Johan, but he can manipulate the physical evidence to get the two to go at one another and I'm not sure either has the forensic background Dexter does to see through the manipulation of evidence. The best end result for this would be for Johan to kill Hannibal (likely through proxy) which would leave Dexter free to kill Johan. Cause if it's the other way around...well...Dexter would in all likely hood leave Hannibal be to preserve his own hide. However, of the three, Show Dexter is in very good physical shape and probably the best of the three so he has the edge physically over the others and he has experience in hunting other monsters which is to his advantage. Note, I don't mean track, I mean hunt. Important distinction.

Oddly enough, I think book Dexter would be the more interesting match-up since he's...more akin to Hannibal and Johan in them. With Show Dexter he's...kind of the odd man out with his skill set and likely to end up a pawn of one or the other. A very good pawn, but still a pawn.

See, thing is, Dexter's biggest advantages are stripped away. He's not on his home turf and he doesn't know the police force. Those are Dexter's largest advantages and he doesn't have them in a strange city. He doesn't know how the people will react, he can't interact with the police (not really), and he's actively avoided the 'fame' of being known as 'that good at evidence' to be called in as an expert to have the backing of a forensics lab to help his investigations. He's just a strong, tough man who kills killers and I don't think that's enough for him...even if I think Hannibal might find a tough read in figuring out Dexter is a killer since...Dexter doesn't leave bodies. Johan doesn't care and Hannibal leaves his behind (barring his 'trophies') but Dexter disposes all his bodies. His victims just 'disappear'. If caught, Hannibal will need to do some very fast deduction /during/ the ritual if he's going to talk his way out of things...and lots of killers have tried that on Dexter. Show Dexter might listen.

Book Dexter is a different animal. He's not as physically imposing but...in ways he doesn't need to be. Some people may deride that part of the books for what they think happened with it, but simple fact is that Dexter (in the books) has an innate sense of who is and is not a monster like himself, which would include Hannibal and Johan. He'd peg Hannibal and Johan the moment he saw them which is a huge advantage, it's just...he knows his own. Then there's the dark passenger itself. No matter what it really is, fact is it helps Dexter hunt and discover hints and clues about his victims. I don't know how it'd help against these two, but it's still an edge. If nothing else it just helps him with the actual hunt and takes emotions out of it for him...not that Dexter feels an emotion beyond 'don't hurt children/my loved ones' or 'hunger', but when the Dark Passenger takes the wheel he's undeniably more deadly. Final advantage is while Dexter adheres to his code even more rigidly in the books, he's also able to go after high-profile targets more easily and Hannibal does fit book!Code. With the help of Chutsky (who's ex-black ops and still has connections) Dexter can get back a little more of his home-field advantage in dealing with law enforcement and, more importantly, negate the protection of working for the FBI, at least in part, that Hannibal has. Also have a much easier time locating Johan.

...Honestly, I was thinking of who'd win between Hannibal and Dexter myself...I couldn't figure out who'd win, I just know I'd love to see it. Now toss Johan into things? Yes please!

[Killer Angel]

I was just thinking that this would be great fan fic material, perhaps add some cops for good measure. Charlie Crews and Patrick Jane would be my go to town pair.

That would be glorious. :smallbiggrin:

[Vknight]

Interesting point Callos though I would like to point out though book Dexter can sense his own.
His own are often aware they are him in some capacity. Hannibal he's different he seems himself as helping the world.
Also Hannibal was a FBI profiler you don't make a man like that disappear without others noticing
Also he spent a lot of time with a man that had similar issues to Dexter. And he could not sense the innate wrong in Hannibal.

That is his greatest strength. Serial Killers sense there own, but the good Doctor he's not one of them mentally, physically, emotionally he's a psychologist killing pigs. There is no guilt, or after thought too these men and women a killer even remorseless ones carry the victims/trophies what have you in some way.
Hannibal does not

I like the idea of the fight & various cops.
Dexter captures Jane thinking he's dangerous[kind of is]
Whoever this Johan guy manipulating people
and Hannibal just appearing to be a profiler and bam last minute.
Dexter is down Hannibal lets him go seeing in Dexter a young him.
Johan is finished, Jane makes the connections to the murders. Preferably Red John was doing them and trying to pull the other 3 too his side and Jane got involved.