[3.5] Rank the Full Casters

[Thurbane]

If you were to rank the full caster base classes (classes which get 9th level arcane or divine spells) in order of power/versatility, what order would you slot them into?

Wizard, Cleric and Druid at the top of the heap, all the way down to the lowly Healer...

For the purposes of this exercise, assume straight 20 levels of base class (i.e. no Rainbow Warsnakes), and casters to exclude psionics, maneuvres, pact magic, shadow magic, truenaming, invocations, artificers etc.

Just a mental excercise, not trying to ruffle anyones feathers. :smallwink:

Cheers - T

Archivist (HoH)
Beguiler (PHB2)
Cleric (PHB/SRD)
Death Master (DMC)
Dread Necomancer (HoH)
Druid (PHB/SRD)
Favoured Soul (CD/MH)
Healer (MH)
Mystic (DLCS)
Sha'ir (DMC)
Shaman (OA)
Shugenja (CD)
Sorcerer (PHB/SRD)
Spirit Shaman (CD)
Warmage (CAr/MH)
Wizard (PHB/SRD)
Wu Jen (CAr)

[have I missed any? - added Sorcerer, Mystic & Shaman]

[Juntao112]

The Sorcerer?

[Thurbane]

The Sorcerer?
D'oh *facepalm*.

Added, thank you.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

In my sleep deprived state I would order them like this at a first glance.

Archivist
Wizard
Druid
Cleric
Sorcerer
Favored Soul
Wu Jen
Spirit Shaman
Sha'ir
Shugenja
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Warmage
Healer
Death Master

[ArcturusV]

I'd probably rank Druid and Cleric higher than Wizard myself. Arcane Magic gets a slight nod for sheer power. But I think Divine has an edge on versatility. Not to mention the bodies attached to that power are more robust and useful than the wizard's.

[Golden Ladybug]

And of course, Sha'ir can end up jumping ahead in spell levels to get 9ths at something like ECL11 with a liberal reading of the way they cast spells, which certainly counts for something...

[ben-zayb]

In terms of power and versatility? That's easy.

1st: tie between all t1s.
2nd: tie between all t2s
3rd: tie between all t3s
4th: tie between all t4s
5th: tie between all t5s

oh, and I believe you forgot (or ignored) the adept and the generic spellxaster as casting classes.

Anyway, I'll just grab my popcorn and see how these thread develops... :smallbiggrin:

[Matticussama]

Are we assuming access to all published sources? Dragon Magazine?

What level of cheese are we willing to tolerate for the purposes of comparison? Ignoring prestige classes cuts down on a lot of that, but things like a DMM Cleric with hundreds of night sticks v.s no night sticks stacking can make a big difference in power.

[Gwendol]

The same goes for splat-book support for the other casters.

In general though, I'd rate clerics and druids higher than wizard based on versatility and chassis.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Never heard of the Sha'ir before now, but... is it just me, or do they have spells/day equal to a specializing wizard, spells known as a sorcerer, and the ability to prepare and cast any sorcerer/wizard spell they want, plus some divine spells? :smalleek: If so, I'd put them... probably on the same tier as wizard, if not higher.

[dascarletm]

I think the best bet for excluding build options is to just assume one race, and ignore feat choices... Though feats can add versatility, we're looking at the base class, yes?

[Golden Ladybug]

Never heard of the Sha'ir before now, but... is it just me, or do they have spells/day equal to a specializing wizard, spells known as a sorcerer, and the ability to prepare and cast any sorcerer/wizard spell they want, plus some divine spells? :smalleek: If so, I'd put them... probably on the same tier as wizard, if not higher.

And as I alluded to before, that Divine Spellcasting can be read as qualfying them for Mystic Theurge, on both sides of the Theurge. And then progressing twice per level.

Sha'ir are pretty good. The only thing in their way is Diplomacy and Time.

[Gavinfoxx]

You forgot the Mystic.

[Shining Wrath]

Not familiar with all those but I'll rank the common ones:


Druid
Wizard
Cleric
Sorcerer
Favored Soul


Druid wins because Animal Companion is much better than Familiar, and the massive utility of Wild Shape outweighs the superiority of the wizard's spell list. The ability of the cleric to mix it up in melee becomes less and less important as the spells become more and more powerful.

The margin between the prepared casters and the spontaneous casters depends upon information available prior to starting the adventure and the time available to prepare. Given lots of info and time, the spontaneous caster will have scrolls ready to fill the holes in their known list. Given very little info and time, the prepared caster has to go in with their standard list of prepared spells, some of which will go unused, while the spontaneous caster will probably be able to spam a known spell.

[NeoPhoenix0]

of the ones i'm familiar enough with i would put them in this order, no ties. the dread necromancer, beguiler and warmage are close enough that they can very easily switch around depending on choices.

Druid
Cleric
Wizard
Sorcerer
Favoured Soul
Dread Necomancer
Beguiler
Warmage
Healer

[Chronos]

The Archivist depends a lot on what the DM lets you get away with, as far as finding spells. At the most permissive levels, they can get darned near every spell in the game, between various domains, divine bard, adept, and so on. Possibly even every spell period, if there are primarily-arcane mystic theurges with Alternate Source Spell or the like. If this is the case, they're obviously the top, but with a stingier DM, then can end up being weaker than the Cleric (though still probably stronger than the Spirit Shaman).

For other casters, I'd go something like

Druid
Wizard
Cleric
Spirit Shaman
Sorcerer
Favored Soul
Wu Jen
Shugenja
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Warmage
Healer

Druid I put first, ahead of even the wizard, because they just don't have a weakness. A first-level wizard, like most first-level characters, sucks (and that's as it should be), but a druid doesn't. A good stealthy character can sneak up on a wizard, but not a druid. If you don't know what you're doing with a wizard, you can accidentally nerf yourself, but it's a lot harder with a druid.

Wizard is next, primarily on the strength of their spell list, which is about as long as all other classes combined.

Cleric, as the last of the well-supported prepared casters, comes next.

The spirit shaman has something resembling the prepared-caster versatility, off of one of the Big Three spell lists, but it's arguably the weakest of the Big Three lists, and doesn't get any of the druid's other goodies to make up for it.

Sorcerer and Favored Soul also get access to the Big Three spell lists, but without the prepared versatility.

Wu Jen is prepared, but has a much shorter spell list available to work from.

Shugenja has a similarly-short list, but without the preparation.

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are close to each other, but I happen to prefer sneakiness.

Warmage is decent at blasting, but not much else, and that's one of the weakest things spells can do.

And Healer, of course, can't do anything-- They're not even good at healing.

[Jack Zander]

Good lord. Why are divine casters getting so much love? The list should very clearly be archivist, wizard, druid, cleric, sorcerer, etc.

[Urpriest]

Why is everyone putting Shugenja above the full-list guys? It's better than a Warmage, sure, but it's got a pretty tight and restrictive list. I'd put it behind the Beguiler and Dread Necro.

[WhatBigTeeth]

As casters, I'd say:

Wizard - First because of a powerhouse native spell list, with very few campaign assumptions needed in order to cast the most powerful effects in the game.
Cleric - Near the front because of a massive native spell list with tons of ways of expanding the types of spells available (domains, substitute domain, miracle, gate, summon monsters, planar ally, ice ass)
Druid - Near the front because of a spell list dozens of pages long, with tons of brute force backing it up. Behind Wizard and Cleric because its spell list lacks many of their effects (teleports, enchantments, illusions, calling effects, accelerated casting) and doesn't have nearly as much in the way of open-ended spell effects until around the time Shapechange kicks in.
Archivist - Listed after Cleric and Druid because without being provided nonstandard spells, it's a reduced version of the cleric with a split casting stat, limited spell access, no DMM and a weaker chassis. The more available weird spells are assumed to be, the better it gets in comparison to the other divine casters, especially if southern magician scrolls get thrown into the mix.
Sorcerer - Casting from the Wizard's ridiculous spell list with additional ways to break the action economy. Given the Sorcerer's brute force and the potential use of spells like Animate Dread Warrior or Planar Binding for outright game breakage, it can make showings to show the Druid and Cleric up.
Spirit Shaman - Its spell mechanic is talked up like crazy, and it does get a ton of spells per day, but its number of spells retrieved is so limited that the Sorcerer often ends up better-prepared in tactical situations, even before considering the advantages of the wizard spell list over the druid's.
Wu Jen - Its spell list is really good, but has almost no splatbook updates.
Shaman - Near the top for many of the same reasons as the Cleric and Druid; not mixed in with them because of some weird spell list omissions (Summon nature's ally, an animal companion and polymorph, but no magic fang?) and because the class runs into tons of unsafe assumptions regarding its 3.5 update and the SpC's spell list expansion.
Favored Soul - Still a really good spell list, and friendlier spells known advancement than the sorcerer, but without domains, it's trickier to get some of the really ridiculous spell effects than the sorcerer, and with set spells known, quirky utility spells aren't as easy to justify on the build. But a dynamite chassis.
Dread Necromancer - Widely applicable native spell list, lots of brute force via minionmancy and Advanced Learning has some absolutely silly options.
Beguiler - Very flexible spell list, but faces common immunities and enchantment doesn't give quite as crazy of advanced learnings as necromancy.
Shugenja - If we count Hexer, bump this up a couple steps, but the native spells known progression is very constraining, and it is difficult to get spells that are very good.
Bard - Surprisingly versatile spell list with only 6 levels
Warmage - Eclectic Learning actually gives it some crazy options, but there are few enough of them that it's still difficult to jump past the Shugenja or Bard (at least not without PrC Bard).
Adept - The token crappy spellcaster, but it has some versatile spell effects like Animate Dead, Polymorph and Invisibility and using Eberron's rules, it can get some decent spell additions.
Duskblade - Makes a powerful melee character, but the limited spells known and extremely limited versatility of its spell list make even the Adept's casting look pretty desirable.
Healer - No versatility, basically has to rely on Sanctified spells to do anything but heal. Eventually, there's Gate, but that's not exactly a spammable spell, and it's too late in the progression to really be worth considering.

[Chronos]

Why is everyone putting Shugenja above the full-list guys? It's better than a Warmage, sure, but it's got a pretty tight and restrictive list. I'd put it behind the Beguiler and Dread Necro.
Honestly, I'm not all that familiar with shugenjas. If you say their list is that restrictive, I guess I can take your word on it.

And to be clear, I was ranking the classes as a whole, not just their spellcasting. This makes almost no difference for wizards or sorcerers, of course, who have very little besides spellcasting, but the druid's wildshape and animal companion can be significant, as can the beguiler's skills, and a few other such abilities the classes have.

[ArcturusV]

I'm with Urpriest. I'd knock the Shugenja down further than Warmage, Beguiler, etc.

Lets count it:

Divine Caster, but loses the various perks of being a divine caster (No armor, no weapons worth a damn) over an Arcane Caster.

The only class ability they have, Sense Elements, is actually very limited and tells you almost nothing after 5 rounds of Concentration "Oh, there's a medium sized source of Water... that might be a person, a bathtub, someone boiling a whole pig alive, a steam room..."

You have a very restrictive spell list, and immediately have to bar 1/4th of your list.

Despite being a Spontaneous Caster you are still "Spellbook Handicapped" in that Shugenjas cast spells off individual scrolls. So without your scrolls you wouldn't be able to cast any spell.

As a Spontaneous Caster you're Metamagic Gimped.

Their spell list being "elemental" based tends to lack a lot of useful Magical Swiss Army Knife type spells.

[Mithril Leaf]

If you play Warmages the right way (using all the cheese you can) then they go up quite a few tiers as well. Similar to Shugenja in that regard.

[Thurbane]

oh, and I believe you forgot (or ignored) the adept and the generic spellxaster as casting classes.
Adept as in the NPC class? It only get's spells up to level 5.

UAs generic spellcaster is pretty much an alternative system, and generally wouldn't appear in a game alongside regular casting classes, so I don't think I'd include it here.

You forgot the Mystic.
Well, it's pretty campaign specific, but yes, it would qualify under the criteria for this thread...

[Arcanist]

Well, it's pretty campaign specific, but yes, it would qualify under the criteria for this thread...

I thought that was why Magewright was not included, but apparently it also belongs on this list as well!

[Jigokuro]

A lot of the lists made here are skipping Sha'ir entirely (probably for lack of experience with it) so let me chime in there;
provided your DM doesn't restrict access to finding/buying spells (by RAW if the price of the scroll is within range of that city's size, it is there, regardless of the rarity of the source class) and PrC are off the table.
At level 20 the list goes like this:
1. Archivist
2. Sha'ir
3. Wizard
4. Cleric
5. Druid
It drops off significantly after that.

Archivist get almost every spell, and many at lower than normal level, versatility is power 'nuff said.

Sha'ir -I'll put more here since people don't know as much about them- they start rocky but get better and better as they level, since their spells stay in memory longer and the diplo checks get relatively easier (take 10 from like level 5 on). They get a few divine spells plus every wizard spell for only having to identify it being cast with spellcraft, and there are rules for paying an NPC to casts spells for you (protip: much cheaper than scrolls.) Then there is the obscure feet that grants a second familiar for which you qualify; it is meh for a wizard even with improved familiar, but omgwtfbbq for Sha'ir. Two gens and 20hrs in-mind means time is no longer an issue at all by 20. Beats wizard at everything but free feats.:smallcool:

Wizards are wizards, best and most versatile of the core and this should be evident (automatically better than druids at 20 because lol shapechange.) Also Celerity is op.

Clerics and Druids are close at 20, but assuming both are high op I think a Cleric's DMM Persist outdoes anything Druids can pull. This is the point I'm least sure of, but also care the lease about; the main point is the top 3 beat these 2 cleanly.

[SinsI]

If "versatility is power" and "money is no problem", when Bard with maxed Use Magic Device is the Top Full Caster, because he can cast any spell with the use of appropriate Daily Use custom magic item.

IMHO, we should just calculate the total worth of the spells/powers a class gets a day for free, and compare them using that.

[Arcanist]

If "versatility is power" and "money is no problem", when Bard with maxed Use Magic Device is the Top Full Caster, because he can cast any spell with the use of appropriate Daily Use custom magic item.

IMHO, we should just calculate the total worth of the spells/powers a class gets a day for free, and compare them using that.

I think you're ignoring the Artificer if this is your basis. Metamagic pump that Wand/Staff (if higher then 4th level) and you're good to go!

[ArcturusV]

See, I'd go with "Knowledge is Power" instead of "Versatility is Power" while both are true, I'd say the former is more so. The greatest weapon in a spellcaster's arsenal at almost any level is information. And divine casters tend to get better divinations at every stop on the road.

I dunno. I just don't see where Arcane is strictly better. Particularly when talking about something like Clerics where they can usually pick up a couple of domains to cover whatever Arcane Spells they feel are "must have".

[Thurbane]

I thought that was why Magewright was not included, but apparently it also belongs on this list as well!
I'm not very familiar with Eberron material - I thought the Magewright was an arcane equivalent of the Adept, and only got up to 5th level spells?

My list was only including base classes that get up to 9th level divine and/or arcane spells. That's why the Bard, for instance, wasn't on my list either...

[Jigokuro]

I dunno. I just don't see where Arcane is strictly better. Particularly when talking about something like Clerics where they can usually pick up a couple of domains to cover whatever Arcane Spells they feel are "must have".

Right, Archivists are all Cleric (and Druid+Paly+Ranger, iirc, I'm tired) spells plus every domain without even coming close to cheesy. They are the masters of both knowledge and versatility.

Also worth noting Sha'ir get divine Divination, *Freedom of Movement, *True Seeing, Find the Path, and Miracle as 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th level spells, respectively; it isn't all of what a cleric has over wizard, but it helps my case that they are better than both.

*Also wizard spell, but earlier.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you're ignoring the Artificer if this is your basis. Metamagic pump that Wand/Staff (if higher then 4th level) and you're good to go!

Artificer was specifically excluded from this excersize.

On topic:

I'd say it's something like;

wizard
cleric
archivist
druid
sorcerer
favored soul
etc.

An animal companion is better than a familiar, sure. Both are only a foot-note to their respective class' overall capability. As for wildshape, polymorph says hi.

[Gnaeus]

Are we talking about through the entire level range? Mid level? High level? Druid, for example, is probably at the top at level 1, but the weakest T1 at level 17.

What books are allowed? Core? Everything? A divine caster who knows 50 spells of each level is much much stronger than a core one. I assume everything goes (because you have classes that are non-core.) but not sure.

Is there a magic mart where the beguiler can get any item he wants to UMD, and the Archivist can get scrolls of obscure spells from odd domains or cast by classes which get that spell early?

[thethird]

I will go with:

-Archivist: Good class features, int based, with the amplest source of spells available, including yummy spells from classes with low spellcasting (and balanced on that).

-Sha'ir: Meh class features, cha based, diplomacy focused (everyone nerfs diplomacy, it is known, for its power), ample spell list, theurge tricks (single classed entry in geomancer, dweomkeeper, etc...). Finally extra familiar, is on dragon magazine 280 (pg. 62) and it stacks with itself. It is a bit hard to play with it at low levels, until you get used to it.

-Wizard: In my opinion the wizard spell list is one of the cheesiest, has int as a casting stat, and access to some great prcs.

-Druid: I have class features that are stronger than your class, based only on spell list it might be weaker than other tier 1 classes, but it always has something to do.

-Cleric: Good spell list, and divine metamagic, easy persistomancy.

-Shaman (Oriental adventures): Normally overlooked but even transitioned to 3.5 it has an animal companion as a druid and domains as a cleric. And bonus feats, that can be burned in extra turning, for more persistomancy.

-Sorcerer: There are a lot of ways of cheesing the sorcerer level, kobold rituals, white dragonspawn, etcetera... and some of the sorcerer only spells are extremely powerful.

-Favored soul: Better chasis than the sorcerer and some cheesy tricks. The cleric list is also pretty good as is.

-Wu Jen: Wu Jen has some great gems in spell list, and works great for gish builds.

-Spirit shaman: Adaptability is great, and has really strong class features. The druid has some gems hidden among its spell list, although most of them apply to its animal companion or buffs him when wildshapped.

-Mystic: There isn't much on the mystic, although access to the whole cleric spell list is nice.

-Dread necromancer: They make great minionmancers, and have a lot of in built tricks.

-Beguiler: Enchantment/illusion might not be the strongest of spell schools, but it is int based, with a good selection of skills.

-Shugenja: They are more versatile than a Warmage, and have less support than Wu Jen they are still pretty solid.

-Deathmaster: Overall worse than dread necromancers, but still have some nice minionmancy capabilities.

-Warmage: They are good at blasting, but blasting isn't that great. Still they have a lot of potential.

-Healer: If you want to go healer go water shugenja instead, they get a cool unicorn though.

---

Incidentally you missed shaman from oriental adventure.

[Maginomicon]

Sha'ir -I'll put more here since people don't know as much about them- they start rocky but get better and better as they level, since their spells stay in memory longer and the diplo checks get relatively easier (take 10 from like level 5 on). They get a few divine spells plus every wizard spell for only having to identify it being cast with spellcraft, and there are rules for paying an NPC to casts spells for you (protip: much cheaper than scrolls.) Then there is the obscure feet that grants a second familiar for which you qualify; it is meh for a wizard even with improved familiar, but omgwtfbbq for Sha'ir. Two gens and 20hrs in-mind means time is no longer an issue at all by 20. Beats wizard at everything but free feats.:smallcool:

Oh there's more to it than that. Consider this:

When a sha'ir has his gen fetch a spell, the sha'ir's gen is bargaining with planar elemental beings to gain the temporary ability to bestow on the sha'ir one casting of the named spell. This is essentially identical to the way a typical divine caster (such as a cleric or druid) prays/meditates for spells (and is answered by a god/ideal, which essentially is a planar divine being). When the prayer/meditation is answered, the god/ideal imparts on the caster the full details of the spells requested. The sha'ir's situation is no different except that the Sha'ir has to deal with planar red tape (hence the use of diplomacy). There's no reason why upon a successful diplomacy check the gen wouldn't have also been given by the planar elemental powers-that-be knowledge of the full details of the named spell's description... and thus the gen would obviously impart that knowledge to the sha'ir when it returns to the material plane (this is ostensibly why as a sha'ir you add the languages gens speak to your bonus languages, although they can speak common).

Consider this also:

Spellcraft, as a skill, identifies a spell or spell effect. That's the spellcraft skill's whole purpose. But what if you don't need to identify it? What if someone just told you outright about a spell and what it does? As it turns out, in the sha'ir's spellcasting description, it says he only has to know the name of a spell in order to cast it. The relevant line says "A sha'ir decides what spell might be useful and sends out his familiar to retrieve it from the elemental planes. To do this, the sha'ir must summon his gen and tell it the name of the spell he seeks. The gen immediately plane shifts to seek the spell in the elemental planes." ...You read that right; the gen doesn't... in fact... need to know anything more about the spell than its name.

So you see... he only needs to know the name of a spell in order to have his gen go fetch it, nothing more. The spellcraft checks for sha'irs are for identifying spells and spell effects that aren't just identified for him outright by others. If someone tells him "this a fireball", that's enough, but they can also say "fireball is this" or even simply "fireball is a spell". Any of these are enough for a sha'ir to have his gen fetch fireball since they all give away for free the spellcraft check result the sha'ir would normally need. If the spellcraft check isn't given away (such as when an enemy caster uses the spell in battle), by making the spellcraft check, the sha'ir identifies the spell's NAME and thus can request it. In short, if the Sha'ir is simply told the spell's name outright from the get-go, he doesn't need to use spellcraft on his own to identify jack.

This ability to cast any spell on his spell list that he's simply heard about puts him easily above the wizard in all respects except that the sha'ir requires some on-the-fly spell preparation time to fetch a spell.

A word of warning though: Even if he can fetch a spell, that doesn't mean he has the ability score or the spell slots necessary to actually cast it. This is the ultimate balancing factor in all this. Sure, he may know about the wish spell. Sure, he could even have his gen go fetch it. Sure, the gen could even bestow a single casting of wish to the sha'ir... but the sha'ir can't actually cast it if he doesn't have the requisite ability score or the appropriate spell slots of 9th level yet.

[Thurbane]

Shaman added, thank you.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Uh... most postings seem to be pretty accurate. But, if we go a bit more on the contingent planning side, at the highest of levels a wizard has MUCH more versatility than the others. Things like contingency, clone, ice assassin, and death pacts really define the other classes. Archivists don't get wizard spells anyways, and that's the best spell list. Wild shape is good even till high levels, but for playing rocket tag? Sadly, druids don't get miracle to duplicate things like gate, genesis, contingency... But they still have some good tele-escape spells, and a solid frame built to not die in the crossfires.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The important thing to note is that casting is the most powerful thing in the game. Using your spells to obsolete the fighter may make a lot of people hate a caster class, but turning yourself into a big stupid fighter should not be a life goal of a caster looking to be the most powerful that he can be. What matters is strength and breadth of spell list, how flexibly you can use it, what tricks and metamagic you can combo with your spells, etc...

With that said... In my opinion...

Archivist - Dumpster diving through multiple class lists... Who thought this was a good idea?! :smalleek:
Wizard - Incredible spell list, incredible splat support and combos/options
Cleric - Deceptively great spell list, has some insane options like DMM that make even the wizard envious
Sorcerer - Same list as the wizard, less versatility, but a TON of splat-love and broken sorc-only spells
Druid - Poor spell list for fighting spellcasters, the only reason it's even this high is the sheer size of the prepared spell list and splat support.
Wu Jen - It's... still a prepared caster, at least. Has a few (very few) unique goodies
Favored Soul - Cleric list without nearly as much splat support or cheesy tricks
Beguiler - Very powerful but also limited spell list
Warmage - Like beguiler minus the "very powerful" part
Healer - Proof that "full caster" does not automatically mean strong or even "interesting"; a cleric w/ no optimization efforts at all does the class's own one limited unimportant job better than it does

I do not have enough experience with Death Master, Dread Necomancer, Mystic, Sha'ir, Shaman, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman to rate them. I have seen some used by other players before and the Sha'ir seemed pretty ridiculous with the ability to fetch spells...