What do you think the Snarl's combat stats are?

[Phantom Thief]

My personal opinion of what is going to happen in the story is that after failing to secure Girard's gate, and blowing it up, the Order will travel to Kraagor's with Durkon still a party member, but stuck as a vampire. When they get to the last one, the IFC will use their few minutes with V's soul to blow up the last gate, because they have said they only want destruction, and the Snarl does just that.

Mostly I just think this because of a quick line Shojo says when doing the crayon drawing comic thing, where he says something along the lines of "Scholars have theorized that mortals would be less vulnerable than the gods themselves against the Snarl because of ..." So that seems like a slight possibility that the Order will kill the Snarl to end it's threat once and for all. Its not great evidence, but I rather like the idea.

My question, for all the D&D savvy on this Forum, is this: If this theory was right, and the Snarl actually gets fought, what kind of Combat stats/abilities do you think it would have? What kind of abilities, damage reduction, etc. would you expect some epic apocalyptic monster to have to make it a huge threat, yet still ultimately killable(Since we are assuming that the Order would eventually win)? Or if not directly killable, how might the Order manage to cause the death of it?

[SaintRidley]

HP: Lots.
Armor Class: Can't touch this.
Saving Throws: Yes.
Attack: Successful - undoes target.
Challenge Rating: Too high.

[Phantom Thief]

Now that you mention being unmade, that reminds me, is there any concrete evidence for this? I know that everyone assumes this is what happens, since it happened to the Eastern Gods, but who knows for sure if the Snarl will unmake a person once it attacks them? Maybe mortals who are made of the same strands of reality as the Snarl itself are more resilient and can survive its attacks if strong enough?

The only two known attacks I can think of were Soon's wife and Kraagor.

Soon's wife at least didn't immediately get unmade, her corpse is clearly visible after her death in the Crayons of Time. Kraagor's death isn't shown on screen so we can't be sure what exactly his fate was. It's only implied that he is gone forever.

Redcloak and Shojo were the ones who claim that the Snarl would unmake a person forever, but neither of them have ever actually seen the monster, so its more or less an assumption on both their parts as to if that is true.

[Aolbain]

Everything: ∞

[Roland Itiative]

I imagine adventurers of the calibre of the Order of the Scribble had easy access to resurrection spells (even though they lacked a cleric, they must have had contacts and resources to get one to work for them), so the fact they never brought back people killed by the Snarl may be evidence that they can't be brought back. Whether they're truly unmade, just living inside the Rift world, or something else entirely is the true mystery now.

As for stats... Even considering that the Snarl had some sort of extremely effective attack against gods that doesn't work on mortals, it must have pretty high stats to actually be able to hold the ground during battle against an entire pantheon without them bringing a ton of measures that would incapacitate it. And while the story is set in a world modelled after D&D, where mortals can become more powerful than gods, I don't see this happening in OotS. The Giant has kept the power level of the world quite low for D&D standards, so far.

[Vinsfeld]

HP: Lots.
Armor Class: Can't touch this.
Saving Throws: Yes.
Attack: Successful - undoes target.
Challenge Rating: Too high.

LOL! You made my day.

[SoC175]

Mostly I just think this because of a quick line Shojo says when doing the crayon drawing comic thing, where he says something along the lines of "Scholars have theorized that mortals would be less vulnerable than the gods themselves against the Snarl because of ..." So that seems like a slight possibility that the Order will kill the Snarl to end it's threat once and for all. Its not great evidence, but I rather like the idea.

Note that the crayon said "mortals of their level". If we assume that the OotS deities are as powerfull as standard 3.5 deities that means level 60-70 mortals may stand a chance against the Snarl where level 60-70 deities fall before him.

Since even optimistic guesses put Xykon at "only" lvl 27 it's unlikely the order would ever gain such levels

[137beth]

For something like this, it is very bad DM practice to stat something like the snarl. Shojo did say "...of the same level." In a game without many epic characters, major gods usually have 30-50 class levels, 20 outsider hit dice, plus divine rank-related power. The order are not even level 20. Even if the theory Shojo gave is correct, they almost certainly would not be able to fight the snarl.

[Bulldog Psion]

HP: Lots.
Armor Class: Can't touch this.
Saving Throws: Yes.
Attack: Successful - undoes target.
Challenge Rating: Too high.

Mind if I sig that, with proper attribution, in place of my current signature? :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

Mind if I sig that, with proper attribution, in place of my current signature? :smallbiggrin:

Go right ahead. It would be my pleasure.

Regarding the attack, if the Snarl turns out to have a name, and its name is Aaron, amend the Attack line to read "Attack - Successful, undoes target. Has done the target."

[Studoku]

It devours 1d4 investigators per round.

[TengYt]

Such a thing as the Snarl should not have "stats". It should be akin to an entity like the Lady of Pain from Planescape, able to crush any party without the DM needing to roll dice.

[Finwe]

Shojo's crayon narrative does feature a panel with Soon and Kraagor fighting what appears to be one of the snarl's limbs. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[Phantom Thief]

As the guy above me said, it looks like it is at least possible to defend against the Snarl for a period of time, maybe just by blocking or dodging. As for Kraagor not being resurected, I always thought what happened to him was getting trapped inside the rift when it sealed. Girard says "It should have been you who died in that rift" meaning that Kraagor was inside it at some point, and in the scene where they seal the last rift, Kraagor is the closest to it when Soon orders it sealed. That also explains why Dorukan blames Soon for his death, since Soon's order is what caused him to be trapped inside.

If that is so, I would think Kraagor could be alive still. If it is possible to create a whole planet inside the rift, it seems plausible that a person could survive in the rift for an extended period of time. If a ressurection fails, there isn't really a reason given, so Lirian wouldn't have know the reason was because Kraagor was never dead to begin with.

[King of Nowhere]

O-chul can survive being hit by the snarl.
Chuck Norris can hurt the snarl.

Anyone else don't stand any chance.

[Siosilvar]

Damage: 1d6 investigators per round.

[The Glyphstone]

It devours 1d4 investigators per round.


Damage: 1d6 investigators per round.

Whelp, so much for the joke I was going to make...


Damage: 1d8 investigators per round.

There.

[Astral Avenger]

Whelp, so much for the joke I was going to make...


Damage: 1d8 investigators per round.

There.

What/where is that joke from?

[MichaelGoldclaw]

we all know this.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100429142417/unanything/images/4/47/Over9000.jpg

[Toptomcat]

What/where is that joke from?

It's from Cthulhu's combat stats in CoC.

For those who still don't get it (E.B White frog dissection warning)
Being an eldritch abomination from beyond reality, Cthulhu is a good analog for the Snarl.

[Cranica]

I imagine adventurers of the calibre of the Order of the Scribble had easy access to resurrection spells (even though they lacked a cleric, they must have had contacts and resources to get one to work for them), so the fact they never brought back people killed by the Snarl may be evidence that they can't be brought back.

They had access to an Epic-level arcane caster, so they would have had access to Wishes that duplicate resurrections.

[Reathin]

My question, for all the D&D savvy on this Forum, is this: If this theory was right, and the Snarl actually gets fought, what kind of Combat stats/abilities do you think it would have? What kind of abilities, damage reduction, etc. would you expect some epic apocalyptic monster to have to make it a huge threat, yet still ultimately killable(Since we are assuming that the Order would eventually win)? Or if not directly killable, how might the Order manage to cause the death of it?

Given the fact that it's apparently planetary in size and powerful enough to undo creation in about half an hour, I'd say it's well beyond the category of conventional stats (if it even has them, they'd be almost arbitrarily high).

I suspect it COULD be fought and killed, but given that it steamrolled an entire pantheon, I suspect an alternative win condition is in order. I don't think the Order is going to be in a position where such a thing is necessary (this is just my guess, of course. I'm not allowed to reveal the fact that I stole the plot from the Giant's mind via epic magic last month). It feels...too big, really. I find it unlikely that the Order will reach epic levels by the end of the story, much less the power needed to trump gods. It doesn't feel right for them. Chances are the Snarl won't be released or, alternatively, something will come up that will render the idea of fighting it moot (Blackwing's vision of the rift's interior suggests that this might be the case).

Alternatively, Banjo kicks its ass in a round.

[veti]

The DM would be a fool to assign stats to the Snarl. The way a D&D player's mind works: "if it has stats, it can be killed". And the DM knows this is true.

If a player comes up with a sufficiently cool idea for fighting the Snarl, the DM might let them win. That's what happened with the Scribble. But on the whole, a victory like that will have nothing to do with stats and everything to do with "is this a sufficiently epic conclusion to my campaign?"

[Ashtagon]

What/where is that joke from?

In the original Call of Cthulhu rules system, that was Cthulhu's actual written-up stat block.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here are the Snarl's stats:

Rocks fall. Everyone dies.

[Sunken Valley]

No stats because there is no Snarl. Never was, never will be.

[Copperdragon]

The discussion aside if the Snarl acutally exist (not anymore or ever), I think it should have stats. At least it appendixes. We saw the Order of the Scribble fight against it and we also know it did more damage against gods. It was fightable, at least what came out of the rifts was.

The "full snarl" destroyes everything it touches but what comes from the rifts isn't "insta-unmake". It probably has superb saves, an insane amount of HPs but somewhat "normal" attack boni and damage. It also does not seem to have magic attacks (ranged, mind affecting etc).

[ReaderAt2046]

In the Dresden Files RPG, there's a whole class of what are called "plot-device NPCs" which are basically things so powerful that they work entirely by GM fiat, because they so outclass the characters they can do whatever they want to. These are things like Mothers Summer and Winter, God (the Christian one, explicitly stated), the various Archangels, Satan, things like that. I have the feeling the Snarl falls into this sort of category.

[Phantom Thief]

Hmm, alright, maybe you guys are right, and it doesn't have conventional "stats", however, it still seems fightable, if by that I just mean, survivable for a few rounds. I think you guys might be right, and it's too strong for any normal party to kill it, but I still think it's more likely that the gates will all be destroyed and they will have to deal with the Snarl in some capacity than saying,"Welp, theres this giant epic monster we've known about the whole story,and now we're at the climax of the saga, but...nope, he's not showing up afterall.

Also, the Snarl didn't unmake creation in 30 minutes, it just absorbed it. The first world is still there, just inside the rift. Blackwing even saw it's still there.

[Finwe]

Hmm, alright, maybe you guys are right, and it doesn't have conventional "stats", however, it still seems fightable, if by that I just mean, survivable for a few rounds. I think you guys might be right, and it's too strong for any normal party to kill it, but I still think it's more likely that the gates will all be destroyed and they will have to deal with the Snarl in some capacity than saying,"Welp, theres this giant epic monster we've known about the whole story,and now we're at the climax of the saga, but...nope, he's not showing up afterall.

Also, the Snarl didn't unmake creation in 30 minutes, it just absorbed it. The first world is still there, just inside the rift. Blackwing even saw it's still there.

Do we know that it's necessarily the first world? According to Shojo there were many other planes that comprised the snarl's prison; the OOTS' plane is merely the 'lock'. If it is the original world, maybe the Greek/Eastern pantheon is there, too.

[Kish]

Do we know that it's necessarily the first world?
No, we don't.

[The Pilgrim]

Looks like I've been beaten to the "devours 1d6 investigators per round" joke. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Leorik]

Also, the Snarl didn't unmake creation in 30 minutes, it just absorbed it. The first world is still there, just inside the rift. Blackwing even saw it's still there.

You're confusing two separate things:

1) According to Shojo the Snarl undid all of creation after slaughtering the Eastern Pantheon, before being trapped by the new world that the remaining pantheons wove to trap it;

2) When Blackwing looked into the Rift he saw another planet.

We don't know where that other planet is, where it came from, how to get there or what role it will play in the story. There is zero evidence that it is the world the Snarl undid. That's a reasonable guess, but it's just a guess. It could also be another layer of security that the pantheons wove after they created the OotS's world: a series of nested worlds, each one preventing the Snarl from escaping.

The planet Blackwing saw could also be the Fourth Dimension and have nothing to do with the Rift, the Gates or the Snarl; the dimensional upheaval of the Rift allowed Blackwing to peer momentarily into a newer, kewler and more balanced version of his world.

[gondrizzle]

One of the Vampire games had a sidebar with rules for fighting Caine, the original vampire and hence godlike being. The rules went something like this:

Fighting Caine:
You lose.

I assume the Snarl would have a similar special rule.

[Phantom Thief]

Ah, thats true, I was mistaken. I don't know where but I thought I had seen it said in the comic somewhere that that was probably the first world. It must have just been some other forum post theory though.

[sims796]

Mind if I sig that, with proper attribution, in place of my current signature? :smallbiggrin:

Dammit, I wanted to do that.

[Thrax]

Looks like I've been beaten to the "devours 1d6 investigators per round" joke. :smallbiggrin:

Everybody did it too verbatim anyway. This is D&D, it should go "devours 1d20 adventurers per round".

[SaintRidley]

Dammit, I wanted to do that.

You're welcome to as well.

[General Patton]

Everybody did it too verbatim anyway. This is D&D, it should go "devours 1d20 adventurers per round".

I was going to say it devours d20 planes of existence per round.

[ShadowFireLance]

Sorry, But at certain levels, anything is able to be killed. :smallwink:

[rodneyAnonymous]

Except things that don't have stats; Lord British Postulate (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LordBritishPostulate) and all :)

[karkus]

The way a D&D player's mind works: "if it has stats, it can be killed". And the DM knows this is true.

This is equally-siggable :smallbiggrin:

Is that even a real word, though? :smallconfused: Oh well. It is now.

[Eloi]

Something like this, maybe?

Snarl

The Snarl is the very embodiment of deistic discord, and is believed to possess a hated of harmony. It has an unlimited size and range within a planar layer, and it doesn't seem to be able to speak any language. It also appears to be incapable of moving between planes, as the Gods had evaded it in the Outer Plane and it has not been able to move out of its current prison.

Combat

The Snarl can effectively destroy anything in its path, operating like a relentless force of nature. However, it is not omniscient as the gods were able to escape its watch, nor is it omnipotent, as it has not overwhelmed the current scope of creation. It is nonetheless the most powerful entity known in all of existence.

Mass Trap Essence (Ex)

The Snarl rips with a sharp appendage, removing the effected area or creature permanently from the plane. Immune to dispelling, spell resistance, antimagic fields and attacks of opportunities. No save is possible against it. A slain creature or area's essence is trapped within the Snarl itself, and part of the Snarl takes on that victim’s or affected area's features. The trapped essence cannot be raised or resurrected, not even with limited wish, miracle or wish. The trapped area cannot be traveled to using Gate or Plane Shift and can only be accessed through a Rift, because the Snarl is not located on a different plane than the mortal one, but a different layer of the same plane. This attack has a range of 30ft through a Rift, and an unlimited range if the Snarl is in the same layer of the plane as the target. In this case, 1/27th of the plane can be trapped every ten rounds.

Rift Creation (Sp)

Creates a connection from one layer of the plane to another layer and functions like an intraplanar Gate in that regard. Is evidently limited in its construction of these, as only five have been spawned by the Snarl after its imprisonment, if their creation is intentional at all.

So basically, my version of the Snarl is a sort of Uber-Devourer. The planet we saw? It's a trapped essence of the former world. This is also why it leaves corpses, because it takes their very essences (or souls). Considering that the Devourer uses its victims to fuel its spells, I speculate it might require the use of deistic essences to create Rifts, but it seems as though there'd by more if that was the case.

[137beth]

In this case, 1/27th of the plane can be trapped every round.
Shouldn't it be every minute, instead of every round?

[Eloi]

Shouldn't it be every minute, instead of every round?

I don't know how a "minute" translates mechanics-wise, but I assumed it was about a round of combat. Switched it to minute just to be safe.

[SaintRidley]

A minute is ten rounds.

[Eloi]

A minute is ten rounds.

Thanks! I'll incorporate that. So it takes 270 rounds for the Snarl to consume all of a plane... interesting!

[Bulldog Psion]

Meaning that the Snarl can devour 3.7% of a plane per minute, or 0.06167% of a plane per second. Not sure what that proves, but it's interesting. :smallcool: