Seer Gish: What does one _do_?

[Urpriest]

The basic psionic gish as far as I'm aware is Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer 10

Generally when I see this proposed, the Psion part is either Egoist or Seer.

Now, I like to think I understand arcane gishes. You've got all the defensive goodies of a paranoid Wizard, while your damage can come from a variety of sources, from Bite of the X to Arcane Strike to the Polymorph line. It's easy to see how such a character can be competent melee.

Similarly, I get how an Egoist gish manages to deal damage. You've got the Metamorphosis line, and a variety of other nice gish buffs.

What I don't get, though, is what a Seer gish does. You don't have much in the way of damage buffs or stat buffs, so I can't see how you deal damage, and Psionics doesn't have anything like Arcane Strike. The PrCs involved don't add much in the way of damage options either. Without taking a whole lot of Expanded Knowledge for Egoist or Psychic Warrior buffs, I don't get how a Seer gish remains relevant in melee. Yes, they can definitely take hits, and with various reroll abilities they can be pretty accurate...but what do you do with that accuracy?

[Eldan]

I suppose precognition is nice and rerolls also never hurt. But I think straight buffs would still be better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It gives you Listen and Spot as class skills, so there is that.

It looks like it gets more defensive buffs (Escape Detection, Second Chance, Fate of One), divination effects (Clairvoyant Sense, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Remote Viewing, Hypercognition), plus the amazing potential of Fate Link. I guess nearly every power on the list is worth getting, unlike most of the other disciplines, so overall it adds the most to the character.

[AmberVael]

As someone who has played a high level Seer gish... I have no clue.

But lemme back up here. Seer (at least in my opinion) is a pretty great discipline for a psion to choose. There's just a lot of nice, unique powers in their list. That's why I picked it- not so much because it added anything to being in combat, but because it added to being out of combat.

That said, Second Chance and Fate of One are great powers in combat, for way more reasons than just accuracy.


I think what I'd focus on is that while Egoist certainly has stuff going for it, you can probably get along as a gish with just about any discipline. Not only are there some decent or just great buffs that any psion can get (Vigor, Offensive and Defensive Precognition, Inertial Armor), but it's pretty easy to just snatch up the best of Egoist with a couple of Expanded Knowledge feats. Getting Metamorphosis on your Seer (or Shaper or whatever else you want) is not hard.

Seer though- you can't get all the cool stuff from Seer with just a couple of feats. It has too much going for it. So, while it might not have the most combat stuff, it's still a great choice, simply because of all the nifty options it adds.

[Urpriest]

As someone who has played a high level Seer gish... I have no clue.

But lemme back up here. Seer (at least in my opinion) is a pretty great discipline for a psion to choose. There's just a lot of nice, unique powers in their list. That's why I picked it- not so much because it added anything to being in combat, but because it added to being out of combat.

That said, Second Chance and Fate of One are great powers in combat, for way more reasons than just accuracy.


I think what I'd focus on is that while Egoist certainly has stuff going for it, you can probably get along as a gish with just about any discipline. Not only are there some decent or just great buffs that any psion can get (Vigor, Offensive and Defensive Precognition, Inertial Armor), but it's pretty easy to just snatch up the best of Egoist with a couple of Expanded Knowledge feats. Getting Metamorphosis on your Seer (or Shaper or whatever else you want) is not hard.

Seer though- you can't get all the cool stuff from Seer with just a couple of feats. It has too much going for it. So, while it might not have the most combat stuff, it's still a great choice, simply because of all the nifty options it adds.

Ok, I definitely get that Seer is nice in general. Making a Seer Gish is like making a Conjurer Gish in that respect: the school choice may not make you all that better at combat, it's just a nice school. And Seer is especially flavorful for a Ranger-based Gish, what with all the info-gathering.

The thing is, a Conjurer still has access to a bunch of generic Wizard stuff that makes them a threat in combat. What I'm not seeing is what generic Psion stuff exists to make a Psion gish a threat in combat. You've got Offensive Precognition/Prescience...and that's basically it as far as I can tell. You can get a bunch of other stuff from Expanded Knowledge, but how many iterations of Expanded Knowledge do you need? Can you be combat-effective without Metamorphosis/Greater Metamorphosis, for example?

[Agrippa]

"Let me make this situation clear for you. I know what special abilities you have. I can see the enhancements. I can detect the increased electrical activity in your brain. I know what moves you're preparing to make. I've fought our fight already, in my head, in a million different ways. I can hit you without you even seeing me. I'm what soldiers dream of growing into. I'm what children see when they first imagine what death is like. I'm the Midnighter. Your Move. " - Midnighter from The Authority

At least that's what a seer gish should be.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I've played a few melee psions and I've seen a good number in play, but I don't think I've ever seen one based on Seer. Even trawling for excerpts of the old psi-gish tank 339 thread, I don't see any Seers. So I'm not sure where the idea of it as a standard is coming from. Egoist, Nomad and even Kineticist are far more common.

But Clairsentience is a decent utility discipline, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for a Ranger/Psion/Slayer looking to fill a niche as a skillmonkey, and the rerollpowers are useful for anyone who rolls dice often - including gishes. Destiny Dissonance wouldn't be a bad power to channel through Graft Weapon, but for a reason in selecting a discipline, that's definitely a reach.

EDIT: Scrolling through the major 3e forums on google, I only see one poster on any message board suggesting the Ranger/Seer/Slayer combination anywhere, and it's in reference to psionic tracking specialists. I think it's more one of Psyren's pet builds than it is a CO standard.

And
UN-DOUBLE POST: I should probably say though that regardless of the above, any sort of psion would make a plausible Slayer.

Knowledge Devotion gives basic attack/damage numbers in the same range as the Fighter (you could also use Offensive Precognition/Prescience for it, but those cost actions and a ton of PP), Deep Crystal Weapons are Arcane Strike Lite, Telekinetic Maneuver complements standard melee feat arrays, Touchsight/Freedom of Movement answer many of melee's main problems and Inconstant Location means swift teleports every round, just as a start of examples, and all the defensive and action economy tricks psionics provide work equally well with a melee psion as an offensive manifester.

So while Seer doesn't have a whole lot that directly complements the role, sticking it into a Slayer shouldn't be crippling on the melee side of things, and will the previously-mentioned casting-on-a-tougher-chassis would still be an option.

[Urpriest]

And
UN-DOUBLE POST: I should probably say though that regardless of the above, any sort of psion would make a plausible Slayer.

Knowledge Devotion gives basic attack/damage numbers in the same range as the Fighter (you could also use Offensive Precognition/Prescience for it, but those cost actions and a ton of PP), Deep Crystal Weapons are Arcane Strike Lite, Telekinetic Maneuver complements standard melee feat arrays, Touchsight/Freedom of Movement answer many of melee's main problems and Inconstant Location means swift teleports every round, just as a start of examples, and all the defensive and action economy tricks psionics provide work equally well with a melee psion as an offensive manifester.

So while Seer doesn't have a whole lot that directly complements the role, sticking it into a Slayer shouldn't be crippling on the melee side of things, and will the previously-mentioned casting-on-a-tougher-chassis would still be an option.

Huh. Knowledge Devotion is available to anyone with the feat slots and skills, sure. I had thought Deep Crystal was like Psionic Weapon, but looking it up I see you don't have to expend your focus to use it, so that's actually fairly solid, especially if it stacks with itself (I don't think it does, but damage stacking is weird). Telekinetic Maneuver uses ML rather than BAB, so it's not a gish thing so much as just a worthwhile power. I agree that there's a lot of defense and action economy stuff, but I suppose with a Deep Crystal weapon and Knowledge Devotion you could end up doing acceptable damage, especially if you brought the second Ranger level forward for TWF or Rapid Shot.