Playable Dragons?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I've got an...interesting world cooking up for my next campaign. One that looks a lot like Erfworld and Adventure Time had an illicit, unmentionable, activity with the Wizard of Oz, and they had a kid of uncertain lineage.

While coming up with wacky, whimsical races to inhabit this land, I've hit a snag where it comes to Dragons. Where can I find a playable Dragon race? Not half-dragons, mind, but actual Dragons.

[Waker]

Well, there are rules for playing as Dragons in Draconomicon as well as issues #320/332 of Dragon Magazine.
Were you looking for something in particular, like a dragon without RHD that could proceed directly into a class? For something like that, you would probably have to rely on houserules/homebrew.

[Darrin]

Dragon Magazine #320 (Metallic) and #332 (Chromatic).

Swordsaged.

Uh... Dragonlance Campaign Setting had some Draconian races, but even with dragon HD as racial HD they stunk like a wet dog rasslin' a skunk.

Oh and one more... Somewhere on the WotC website there's an Assassin DrakeAmbush Drake (see link below) monster class, seven levels of dragon racial HD, and no LA.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Well, there are rules for playing as Dragons in Draconomicon as well as issues #320/332 of Dragon Magazine.
Were you looking for something in particular, like a dragon without RHD that could proceed directly into a class? For something like that, you would probably have to rely on houserules/homebrew.

Hm. In a way, I suppose I was looking for something like a Dragon Race/Class. The setting is a bit odd, and the actual game is going to be fairly whimsical and non-serious (mostly), so it's not like I need a Tier 3 Race/Class Combination that allows 9th lvl spellcasting zomgf! :smalltongue:

Anything like that?


Dragon Magazine #320 (Metallic) and #332 (Chromatic).

Swordsaged.

Uh... Dragonlance Campaign Setting had some Draconian races, but even with dragon HD as racial HD they stunk like a wet dog rasslin' a skunk.

Oh and one more... Somewhere on the WotC website there's an Assassin Drake monster class, seven levels of dragon racial HD, and no LA.

Google Fu has failed me in finding the AssDrake class, which is a shame cuz I'd love to see it, even if just for a basis. What was so bad about the Dragonlance Dragon races?

[LOTRfan]

It's actually an ambush drake.

I also recommend the pseudo dragon (ECL 5, I believe) and spiretop dragon (also a small dragon, ECL 4, found in Sharn: City of Towers).

[Marnath]

Do you mean the Ambush Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a), Darrin?

[Darrin]

Do you mean the Ambush Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a), Darrin?

Yes! Thanks!

(Should have googled and linked myself, but that's too tough to do from my iTouch.)

[Waker]

Personally if I wanted to make dragon(s) a good playable race for players, I would suggest going down a route similar to what they did with Dragonborn and Raptorans.
Make a dragon(s) that has no RHD or LA so it can take class levels right away. As it gains HD from class levels, it gains access/increases to flight/swim, SR, natural armor and SLAs. If the bonuses are small enough and spaced out over enough levels, it won't be unbalancing enough that it would require RHD/LA but would still provide fun bonuses and flavor. For sake of ease I would suggest coming up with a one or two chassis for all dragons to follow, being differentiated by energy types and maybe SLA access.

[Urpriest]

Any Dragon with a level adjustment is "playable". Some are more or less powerful choices than others, but they all can be played. Can you give a more precise idea of what you're looking for?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Any Dragon with a level adjustment is "playable". Some are more or less powerful choices than others, but they all can be played. Can you give a more precise idea of what you're looking for?

Hmmm. Okay. Let's call a hypothetical player, Player A, and his Dragon PC is named Maurice.

Maurice is a candy-cane colored dragon (Erfworld is best Dwagons!). He can speak and reason the same as any Elf, Human or Dwarf PC act like a PC :smallamused:. He has a flight speed and a breath weapon, scaled so that he can get them both in an E6 campaign (because why bother otherwise?). He takes classes in Skirmisher and Barbarian, to increase his fire breath damage when he flies around a battle and to wallop anyone who tries to directly fight him in melee, respectively. Sure, he can't really carry the whole party around (his flight limited by weight) but he can carry some of the gear, or some of the treasure. He really can't use weapons made for non-claw hands, and armor is rather redundant due to natural armor, so he forgoes it.

[MrRigger]

If you're okay with homebrew, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724) is an alternative. I'm using the Silver Dragon class at the moment in a gestalt campaign, and it's working quite well.

MrRigger

[Urpriest]

Hmmm. Okay. Let's call a hypothetical player, Player A, and his Dragon PC is named Maurice.

Maurice is a candy-cane colored dragon (Erfworld is best Dwagons!). He can speak and reason the same as any Elf, Human or Dwarf PC act like a PC :smallamused:. He has a flight speed and a breath weapon, scaled so that he can get them both in an E6 campaign (because why bother otherwise?). He takes classes in Skirmisher and Barbarian, to increase his fire breath damage when he flies around a battle and to wallop anyone who tries to directly fight him in melee, respectively. Sure, he can't really carry the whole party around (his flight limited by weight) but he can carry some of the gear, or some of the treasure. He really can't use weapons made for non-claw hands, and armor is rather redundant due to natural armor, so he forgoes it.

Ok, so let's parse this a bit:

Flight and breath weapon. Check, most Dragons will give you that.

Scaled for E6: So you want the character to be playable before 6th level. Should they be playable at level 1? If so, do they need all their abilities (flight and breath weapon) at level 1, or just by level 6?

Skirmisher: Do you mean Scout, or are you talking about a homebrew class? If the former, since breath weapons don't trigger Skirmish, do you actually want the dragon to have a breath weapon, or rather some sort of fire ranged touch attack?

Also, general comment about the classes: are you envisioning the character being mostly class levels, or mostly dragon with some class levels on top? In other words, are you looking for an LA +0 dragon?

Flight limited by weight: That's built in to flight as-is, really. Though with your mention of carrying the party around I have to ask, how big are you envisioning Maurice being?

Can't use weapons: In general this works with most Dragons besides the humany-looking ones. Note that there are weapons (Mouthpick specifically) designed for creatures with bite attacks to use in their mouths.

Armor redundant due to natural armor: Normally, natural armor and armor stack, so a character would have both if they can. Do you want Maurice to have some sort of built-in armor that doesn't stack with natural armor, like a Warforged?

[Big Fau]

Dragonborn Totemist or Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept gets the job done nicely.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

If you're okay with homebrew, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724) is an alternative. I'm using the Silver Dragon class at the moment in a gestalt campaign, and it's working quite well.

MrRigger

That looks...damn close. Very close indeed. How would this class fair in a somewhat unoptimized game?


Scaled for E6: So you want the character to be playable before 6th level. Should they be playable at level 1? If so, do they need all their abilities (flight and breath weapon) at level 1, or just by level 6?

Playable at level 1, but some sort of flight and breath attack should happen as late as 6th.


Skirmisher: Do you mean Scout, or are you talking about a homebrew class? If the former, since breath weapons don't trigger Skirmish, do you actually want the dragon to have a breath weapon, or rather some sort of fire ranged touch attack?

I can never get that class name right. Yes, the Scout. I was led to believe Skirmish allowed extra damage on a ranged attack if you moved 10ft prior, and that would include a ranged Breath Attack. Guess I was wrong, though I would allow it myself.


Also, general comment about the classes: are you envisioning the character being mostly class levels, or mostly dragon with some class levels on top? In other words, are you looking for an LA +0 dragon?

LA+0 Dragon. Basically.


Flight limited by weight: That's built in to flight as-is, really. Though with your mention of carrying the party around I have to ask, how big are you envisioning Maurice being?

I would imagine a Large Dragon could carry most of the party in a pinch, depending on how the carry capacity math turns out, but I mentioned that he probably couldn't carry more than one or two at a time.


Armor redundant due to natural armor: Normally, natural armor and armor stack, so a character would have both if they can. Do you want Maurice to have some sort of built-in armor that doesn't stack with natural armor, like a Warforged?

I houserule that Natural Armor and regular Armor never stack. It makes sense for a Dragon in a fairy-tale-world to have some sort of hardened scales as he ages, and thus a natural form of armor.

[Urpriest]

That looks...damn close. Very close indeed. How would this class fair in a somewhat unoptimized game?

As an aside, the Improved Monster Classes are probably your best bet, mostly because they make the character like a character with a class rather than like a monster.




Playable at level 1, but some sort of flight and breath attack should happen as late as 6th.
...
LA+0 Dragon. Basically.


Ok, so this basically means you need either one of the Improved Monster Classes, the regular Savage Species Monster Classes (worse option generally) or some class that imitates the theme (Totemist or Dragonfire Adept).




I can never get that class name right. Yes, the Scout. I was led to believe Skirmish allowed extra damage on a ranged attack if you moved 10ft prior, and that would include a ranged Breath Attack. Guess I was wrong, though I would allow it myself.


Scouts are like Rogues, they add bonus damage on attacks. Breath Weapons don't use attack rolls, they trigger reflex saves, so they're not attacks. Basically, do you let Rogues deal Sneak Attack damage on Fireballs?



I would imagine a Large Dragon could carry most of the party in a pinch, depending on how the carry capacity math turns out, but I mentioned that he probably couldn't carry more than one or two at a time.


If you're going for Large, then it's harder to get at low levels. Large is tough to get on a non-temporary basis within the E6 frame, though it may be possible near the end.



I houserule that Natural Armor and regular Armor never stack. It makes sense for a Dragon in a fairy-tale-world to have some sort of hardened scales as he ages, and thus a natural form of armor.

Out of curiosity, do you add an extra bonus to characters' AC then? I ask because the game is balanced under the assumption that melee characters keep their Amulets of Natural Armor upgraded. Otherwise, AC doesn't scale as fast as attack bonuses do.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... well, if you're OK with Homebrew, you could try Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264385). Intended for Pathfinder, but mostly compatible with 3.5. It'd be a high LA+0 or a low LA+1.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

As an aside, the Improved Monster Classes are probably your best bet, mostly because they make the character like a character with a class rather than like a monster.

Looks that way, huh?


Scouts are like Rogues, they add bonus damage on attacks. Breath Weapons don't use attack rolls, they trigger reflex saves, so they're not attacks. Basically, do you let Rogues deal Sneak Attack damage on Fireballs?

Thanks for the clarification.


If you're going for Large, then it's harder to get at low levels. Large is tough to get on a non-temporary basis within the E6 frame, though it may be possible near the end.

The Improved Monster Class for Dragons makes it Large at 5th level. Pretty ideal, if you ask me.


Out of curiosity, do you add an extra bonus to characters' AC then? I ask because the game is balanced under the assumption that melee characters keep their Amulets of Natural Armor upgraded. Otherwise, AC doesn't scale as fast as attack bonuses do.

No, not really. My games are horribly unbalanced (CR? What's that!?) and I don't use a lot of prewritten material, so the Party is never blindsided by something that only a high-OP fighter and Wizard could take down. It's just not my style, or that of my players.