Greyhawk Method - Banging on the Tier 2 Ceiling?

[Larkas]

So, reading through my issues of Dragon Magazine, I've stumbled upon an article about Regional Feats of Oerth, in issue #315. Among them, there is a feat called Greyhawk Method, a feat obviously meant for Wizards. It's prerequisite is the ability to "prepare and cast arcane spells". It's benefit? Gaining four new spells every time you gain a level in a class that allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells.

Now, let that sink in for a second.

- That feat is great for campaigns where there isn't a "magic mart", that is, the Wizard can still have plenty of spells in his spellbook even if he never comes across a single scroll in his entire career. He will probably be able to play as a Schrodinger's Wizard just by virtue of having this feat, even in a supposedly low-magic campaign. (That those couldn't possibly take place in an unmodified Oerth is another issue entirely)

- That feat is superb for Sword of the Arcane Order Rangers and Paladins. Those fellows don't gain any arcane spells when leveling up, they must always inscribe new spells in their spellbooks from scrolls, so if that's hard to come across, they're pretty much screwed. They will probably be able to get most of the good arcane spells by virtue of having this feat. (That Faerûn and Oerth are literally worlds or dimensions apart is another issue; you could only pull this off in a setting-blind campaign or in a Planescape campaign)

-That feat is simply awesome for Sorcerers that take Arcane Preparation. Four new spells of your highest spell level at every level? Yes please! You arguably could even keep your regular sorcerer spell progression as a base, since the feat says that you "gain four new spells" not "gain four spells in place of what you'd normally get". We are looking at something dangerously close to a "Schrodinger's Sorcerer"! Now, I don't think this would break the Tier barrier, as a theoretical Wizard could still have all the spells, but it would press the Sorcerer hard against the Tier 2 roof!

Now, there is always a nebulous ruling to take care of, isn't it? The feat in question says that "you gain four new spells of your choice to add to your spellbook (...)". A Sorcerer doesn't have a spellbook, right? But see, Arcane Preparation is very explicit: "You can prepare an arcane spell ahead of time just as a wizard does." Taking a very strict reading, this means that you need a spellbook, since a Wizard needs one to prepare spells (which would make AP useless to regular Sorcerers wanting to add metamagic feats normally, but bear with me*). This means that you could have a spellbook full of specific but powerful spells to prepare in a pinch, and your spells known list with all the versatile and always useful spells a Sorcerer would normally want. Regardless, the feat is still useful for SotAO characters.

So, what do you think? I don't think I'm the first to find this, but I couldn't find anything about it elsewhere, and I've never seen it mentioned. I must admit, however, that I didn't look very hard. :smallbiggrin: Do you see any flaws with the plan, aside from the one I mentioned? And how relevant do you think the mentioned flaw is? It could be very problematic, I admit, and knowing what a player could achieve with it, I'd be hardly pressed to ban that use, but I want to hear from you. Have I found a way to seriously press the Tier 2 ceiling?

* Not necessarily; read post #3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15198543&postcount=3).

[Amnestic]

Odd that this feat isn't a part of the Easy Bake Wizard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9738.msg329051#msg329051), given that they're already okay with using Dragon Mag content (Eidetic Spellcaster) :smallconfused: Oh well, something to add to the list I guess.

[Larkas]

Odd that this feat isn't a part of the Easy Bake Wizard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9738.msg329051#msg329051), given that they're already okay with using Dragon Mag content (Eidetic Spellcaster) :smallconfused: Oh well, something to add to the list I guess.

Now, you've unintentionally added something to rehabilitate the Arcane Preparation feat for regular Sorcerers. If some Wizards can prepare spells from memory, it means that using a spellbook is possible, though not mandatory. That doesn't have any bearing on the Schrodinger's Sorcerer, however, since you gain spells to inscribe in a spellbook. Anyways, just a tangent, carry on.

[Chronos]

For a wizard, you might as well just take the Collegiate Wizard feat, which is setting-independent, from a more-used source (Complete Arcane) and has the same primary effect. And the two feats won't stack with each other, since both replace your normal number with 4, rather than increasing your normal number by 2.

But that's a nice catch for Arcane Preparation sorcerers, if you can talk your DM into it. Then again, if this feat works with Arcane Preparation, then you could also argue that Arcane Preparation works the same way even without Greyhawk Method.

[Larkas]

For a wizard, you might as well just take the Collegiate Wizard feat, which is setting-independent, from a more-used source (Complete Arcane) and has the same primary effect. And the two feats won't stack with each other, since both replace your normal number with 4, rather than increasing your normal number by 2.

I was going to agree with you, but I decided to read Collegiate Wizard and reread Greyhawk Method. Though it is somewhat ambiguous (could anyone with that issue confirm this for me?), it seems that the four spells are in addition to the usual two a Wizard normally gets! That would mean six new spells each level! EDIT: Reading it again, this seems improbable. Unless someone can confirm my previous statement, it seems that, for Wizards, Collegiate Wizard is directly better than Greyhawk Method: both give four extra spells per level, but Collegiate Wizard also gives three extra 1st-level spells. (Maybe this is why Greyhawk Method was under the radar?) On the other hand, Greyhawk Method can be taken at any level (though why would you take it at any level other than 1st beats me), and, as previously said, can be taken by characters with spellcasting classes other than Wizard.


But that's a nice catch for Arcane Preparation sorcerers, if you can talk your DM into it. Then again, if this feat works with Arcane Preparation, then you could also argue that Arcane Preparation works the same way even without Greyhawk Method.

Indeed! But come again, what are the prerequisites to inscribe a spell in a spellbook from a scroll? Do you have to be a Wizard? *double-checks Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)* Alas, it seems so. "15 + spell level - Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours." Arcane Preparation just lets you prepare spells as a Wizard, not learn them from a captured spellbook or scroll. You could always have a friendly neighborhood Wizard do it for you, however...

[Spuddles]

Very nice find.

[Arcanist]

If this DOES stack with Collegiated Wizard you would be getting 10 spells every level... I want this to be a thing... I... I need it to be a thing... Please... :smallconfused:

[killem2]

My dm would allow it, I would as well, I'll pass this on to our party wizard who already had collegiate wizard :).

[dysprosium]

I'm away from my books right now but I do have the magazine. I will check once I am able to read it.

Now what benefit would this find be to say a duskblade?

Their ability to learn spells is limited to one per level gained. Have them expand their list with Arcane Disciple or the Sand Shaper class and now we've busted open the number of spells available.

Or am I getting excited for nothing?

[Gavinfoxx]

It's now part of MY version of the Easy Bake Wizard:

Easy Bake Wizard!

Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Greyhawk Method (Dragon Magazine #315, optional, requires DM adjudication)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard (this is superior to Greyhawk Method, due to more spells when starting the game): Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
If Greyhawk Method & Collegiate Wizard Stack: +2 spells per level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...), without flaws, assuming Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard don't stack you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

With flaws, if Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard DO stack, you get:

15 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain 8 new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 8 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...


Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.

[Fouredged Sword]

This could also be a very nice feat for a chameleon looking close to a level up. They set their floating feat on Greyhawk Method the day you apply your level up. You get 4 free spells for your spell book, and you don't even have to leave your floating feat on Greyhawk Method after you level.

I would read the text carefully. You may be able to add spells to your divine spell book as well. Still 4 total, but 4 divided between your pools.

[NeoPhoenix0]

they both say they replace the number of spells learned from two to four.


I'm away from my books right now but I do have the magazine. I will check once I am able to read it.

Now what benefit would this find be to say a duskblade?

Their ability to learn spells is limited to one per level gained. Have them expand their list with Arcane Disciple or the Sand Shaper class and now we've busted open the number of spells available.

Or am I getting excited for nothing?

sand shaper automatically adds the spells to the spells known but a large number of domains from arcane disciple could work.

[Callin]

The description I am reading of the Feat says

Benefit
You gain four new spells of your choice to add to your spellbook each time you gain a level in a class that allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells (such as wizard). These spells represent the results of your research, and must be of spell levels you can cast. If you have chosen to specialize in a school of magic, two of the four free spells must be from your specialty school. Add the following to the list of feats you may select as a bonus wizard feat: Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Magical Aptitude, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration.

IF that is the case then it says nothing about replacing the normal amount of ones known. Same goes for Collegiate Wizard honestly

Benefit
You begin play with knowledge of six 1st-level spells plus 1 per point of Intelligence modifier. Each time you gain a wizard level, you may add four spells to your spellbook without additional research. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) checks.

I see absolutly nothing about it replacing what you normally get. Just that it adds on to.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Collegiate Wizard [General]
You have undergone extensive training in a formal school for
wizards.
Prerequisites: Int 13, wizard level 1st.
Benefit: You begin play with knowledge of six 1st-level spells
plus 1 per point of Intelligence modifier. Each time you gain a
wizard level, you may add four spells to your spellbook without
additional research. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on all
Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Normal: 1st-level wizards begin play with knowledge of three 1stlevel
spells, and can add two spells per level to their spellbooks.
Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.

the greyhawk method feat also has a normal section that says wizards normally get 2 spells in the spell book.

reading all of both feats tells me that RAI they don't stack.

by RAW they are ambiguous so might stack depending on interpretation.

[Callin]

that is correct but honestly has no bearing on what the Benefit section says. It would say that it replaces it. It does not.


The normal section just says what the Character would have normally gotten if they did not have the feat.

[Larkas]

Very nice find.

I'm glad you liked it! :smallredface:


If this DOES stack with Collegiated Wizard you would be getting 10 spells every level... I want this to be a thing... I... I need it to be a thing... Please... :smallconfused:

Whoa, 10? Only if they apply and stack in the most favorable way possible! :smallbiggrin: If, as Callin said above, both Collegiate Wizard and Greyhawk Method add to the total number of spells a Wizard get, then you'd have 2 (base) + 4 (first feat) + 4 (the other feat). If Collegiate Wizard or Greyhawk Method substitute the base with 4 and the other merely adds another four, then you'd have 4 (new base) + 4 (the other feat). If both are understood as giving +2 spells/level to a Wizard, then you'd have 6 (2 (base) + 2 (first feat) + 2 (the other feat)). And lastly, they might not stack at all... :smallfrown:


My dm would allow it, I would as well, I'll pass this on to our party wizard who already had collegiate wizard :).

Woot! He'll have loads of fun spells fun! :smallbiggrin:


I'm away from my books right now but I do have the magazine. I will check once I am able to read it.

Now what benefit would this find be to say a duskblade?

Their ability to learn spells is limited to one per level gained. Have them expand their list with Arcane Disciple or the Sand Shaper class and now we've busted open the number of spells available.

Or am I getting excited for nothing?

Well, if Greyhawk Method is understood as benefiting an Arcane Preparation Sorcerer, I don't see how it wouldn't benefit an Arcane Preparation Duskblade. Again, this would have the quirk of the character needing to carry around a spellbook, but hey, that never stopped Wizards before, did it? Now, I can imagine having a lot of fun in a 3.P game with a Magus! :smallwink:


It's now part of MY version of the Easy Bake Wizard:

Easy Bake Wizard!

--snip--

NICE! See? A Wizard can still get use of both feats! Just be mindful of the way they might stack. If one replaces the total (probably Collegiate Wizard) and the other adds to the total (Greyhawk Method), then you'd have 8 spells/level as a base. Or 10, if you follow the above rationale. :smalleek:


This could also be a very nice feat for a chameleon looking close to a level up. They set their floating feat on Greyhawk Method the day you apply your level up. You get 4 free spells for your spell book, and you don't even have to leave your floating feat on Greyhawk Method after you level.

I would read the text carefully. You may be able to add spells to your divine spell book as well. Still 4 total, but 4 divided between your pools.

Hey, now, I didn't think of this. It would work, I think! Regardless, I'm not sure about the second part. Chameleons prepare divine spells by praying, not reading. The text of the feat is rather lenient, and it seems it would allow you to add any spell of a level you can cast, regardless of it being on your list or not, so you could add a divine spell to your arcane spellbook. I don't believe you could prepare it, however, so it would be useless.

...Come again. What did I say again? "It lets you add any spell of a level you can cast to your spellbook". Chameleons cast from their spellbook spells from any arcane list. Chameleons with Greyhawk Method become the arcane version of the Archivist without having to track down every discounted spell they would ever want!!! :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: Your spells only go up to level 6, but at those levels, you get to cherry pick almost any spell you want! At the very least, you don't have to borrow or steal spellbooks, since you can scribe these spells in a book you own!


they both say they replace the number of spells learned from two to four.

sand shaper automatically adds the spells to the spells known but a large number of domains from arcane disciple could work.


The description I am reading of the Feat says


IF that is the case then it says nothing about replacing the normal amount of ones known. Same goes for Collegiate Wizard honestly


I see absolutly nothing about it replacing what you normally get. Just that it adds on to.


the greyhawk method feat also has a normal section that says wizards normally get 2 spells in the spell book.

reading all of both feats tells me that RAI they don't stack.

by RAW they are ambiguous so might stack depending on interpretation.


that is correct but honestly has no bearing on what the Benefit section says. It would say that it replaces it. It does not.

The normal section just says what the Character would have normally gotten if they did not have the feat.

This boils down to interpretation, really. I'd say that Collegiate Wizard replaces, as the wording in that feat is slightly less ambiguous (it unambiguously replaces your starting level 1 spells, and, being a Wizard-only feat, it appears that indeed a Wizard would get 4 instead of 2 spells on level up). Greyhawk Method, however, could frankly go both ways. As it is written, it even sounds like the "Normal" section is somewhat disconnected from the "Benefits" section in a sense. The latter never said that a Wizard with this feat would get 4 spells instead of the normal 2 you would get, it only says "you gain four new spells of your choice". Really, it could even be argued that, solely with Greyhawk Method, a Wizard would get six spells on level up!

Anyways, YMMV. It depends on interpretation. The feat isn't poorly worded per se, but it could be clearer on its intent.

[SalSly]

As some Sorcerers already ignore the impossibility of using feats for different regions: Does it say anywhere that gaining the Greyhawk Method feat multiple times does not stack?

[Nifft]

As some Sorcerers already ignore the impossibility of using feats for different regions: Does it say anywhere that gaining the Greyhawk Method feat multiple times does not stack?

You can only take a feat once unless the feat has a Special: line which instructs you otherwise.

[Grim Reader]

Sounds great for Chameleons and some others.

As for Sorcerers (and the other spontaneous casters) while Arcane Perparation makes you able to prepare spells as a Wizard does... does it make Sorcerer into "a class that allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells." ?