Warrior vs Monk vs Barbarian

[Lans]

Due to the derailment of the other thread I wanted to do a more focused thread.

I'm going to lay out 2 scenarios

1 Only sources that are legally free online can be used.

2 Any and all sources

Lets say levels 1 2 6 11 16 20


Nobody wins except the classes, so feel free to tweak or alter any build if better options become known

Edit With and with out ACFs, so it might be ACF Barbarian, ACF Monk, Warrior Monk.

Current monsters being used
level 1 riding dog, warhorse light
2 dretch, warhorse heavy, large monstrous spider
3 ogre
4 hound archron, dire boar
5

Eggynacks barbarian Level 1 Riding dog Round 1 -3, dog takes 6.6 to kill heavy warhorse -8.4 in 2 rounds, 3 rounds to kill barbarian. level 2 Dretch 2 rounds to drop to -.6, Level 2 dretch kills in 7.5, spider kills barbarian in 8, barbarian in 2
Level 3 Hound Archron kills barbarian in 3 and barbarian kills in 7, dire boar is killed by barbarian in 3 at -11 and kills the barbarian in 3 at -6.4

[Dusk Eclipse]

Legally free online you mean SRD + Online Articles and book excerpts?

Also is warrior the NPC class or did you mean fighter?

[eggynack]

This seems workable enough. What's the point buy?

Edit: Also, you probably do mean fighter. Barbarians are basically strictly better than warriors, and the other argument was leaning towards fighters near the end there.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Edit: Also, you probably do mean fighter.
I'm thinking it means warrior, since that was the comparison you waved at a couple times in the other thread.

[eggynack]

I'm thinking it means warrior, since that was the comparison you waved at a couple times in the other thread.
Indeed I did. However, later on there was some comparison between monks, fighters and barbarians. I had assumed that this thread was referring to that discussion, rather than my assertions about warriors. If we're using warriors for the purposes of tier 6 testing, then I'd rather use samurai in keeping with my assertions about them in the other thread. They're effectively the border between tiers 5 and 6.

[Lans]

Legally free online you mean SRD + Online Articles and book excerpts?

Also is warrior the NPC class or did you mean fighter?


This seems workable enough. What's the point buy?

Edit: Also, you probably do mean fighter. Barbarians are basically strictly better than warriors, and the other argument was leaning towards fighters near the end there.
I meant warrior, he was included as an after thought, mostly to throw the monk a bone by putting him against a tier 6 class. I could of used the samurai, but after looking at his class features he is basically a warrior that gets improved initiative at 8th and frightful presence at 20th instead of tower shield shenanigans.

[eggynack]

Fair enough, I suppose. What's the point buy then? It's just about the only factor between me and randomly posted barbarian builds.

[eggynack]

I'm arbitrarily bored, so I'm going to create a preliminary first level barbarian build at 32 point buy. He's not going to be pretty (what barbarian is?) but it's nice to have a basis for things. If this guy couldn't dump everything but physical abilities before, he certainly can now due to having lost access to intimidation stuff. Anyway, the only relevant and accessible ACF at this level is whirling frenzy. I'm basically just assuming that every barbarian ever wants this thing, because it's frigging great all the time. For feats, I dunno. I'm making the guy human, so he's getting two of them. Later he's doing tripping, so I'm going to make one of his feats combat reflexes. I don't know how good power attack is in core, but the answer is probably that it's pretty good, but not as good without shock trooper.

All that said, his build so far looks like Str: 18, Dex: 14, Con: 16, everything else: 8. He has whirling frenzy, combat reflexes, and power attack. Right now he's wielding a great sword, though with combat reflexes, a guisarme might be better even without improved trip. I'm putting his two skill points into intimidate and listen. Handle animal might be better, but I'm just in no mood to do that kind of thing right now. Our friendly barbarian gets a starting gold of about 100 GP, and that's enough for a great sword and scale mail. I was thinking about using a guisarme again, because it's much cheaper, but the lower price doesn't really help for armor.

Here's some base stats. When not in a frenzy, the barbarian has one attack at +5 for 2d6+6 damage. His HP is 15 and his AC is 16. When he is in a frenzy, he has two attacks at +5/+5 for 2d6+9. His HP remains the same, but his AC is now at 18. His attacks also go up to +7/+7 on the round following the activation of whirling frenzy.

Now, I'm going to run a quick combat versus a riding dog. They're at the same CR, so the barbarian is allowed to use rage. This is because he's expected to win 50% of the time by expending 100% of his resources. I'm going to have the dog act first on this one, though that may change if the results would be different otherwise. The trip stats are slightly different from straight up biting, so I'm going to have the barbarian get up following a bite, which means that the dog is effectively getting a free attack a percentage of the time defined by the dog's tripping success. On any given non-attack of opportunity attack, the dog has a chance of tripping of (hit chance*trip chance), and the chance of a bonus hit can be directly calculated by multiplying that by hit chance again. Even on the first round, the extra attack is calculated against the frenzied barbarian, because he can frenzy before standing up.

Here's some combat:
Round 1: Dog runs up and bites our noble barbarian. This deals 2.9 damage on average. The dog needs to score 3 higher than the barbarian on the trip, so his odds are 35% on the trip. The chance of gaining an AoO attack, and then hitting on that attack, are 4.2%, so he's dealing an extra .273 damage, for a total of 3.173 damage on the first round. The barbarian is now at 11.827.

Now, for the barbarian. He turns on his mighty rage, if he hasn't already, and attacks for the initial rage amount. Conveniently, his attacks are each at 50% odds, so he deals 16 damage, putting the dog at -3 HP. The dog has been one shotted, and the barbarian deals more and takes less damage in the next turn. After this round, the barbarian has 18 AC, so subsequent attacks deal 1.95 damage. The theoretical trip damage does less than it did before, so I'll just put it at .15 or so, for an average per turn damage of 2.1. The dog takes an average of 5.632 more turns to kill the barbarian, if the barbarian just stands there.

I might run the rageless numbers later, but for now I'm sticking with this. This is also in the version where the dog gets the first move. In the alternate version, the barbarian just kinda galumphs up to the dog, and kills him in the face.

Next time on the barbarian vs. the world cage match: Will the barbarian be able to beat up other CR 1 opponents at this level? Will the level 2 barbarian be able to keep up with the CR 2 enemies? Will the barbarian acquire a name, so that I don't have to call him "the barbarian" anymore? All this and more, on the next barbarian vs. the world cage match.

[Immabozo]

What are PrC restrictions? If any. If none, I used to say Barbarian is the best, but after my recent beatstick warhulk build and I found out how amazing feats (or how abysmally horrible they) can be, I would say it depends all upon feat selection and ACFs for the specific build.

And completely unvalued in theoretical practices like this. That value could easily go in favor of any of the three... so my point is moot... i sadden myself...

[eggynack]

I think we should generally stick to no prestige classes. First of all, there aren't even many legal online sources with prestige classes in the first place, so there's not much to work with. Second, it just adds too many variables. Suddenly, instead of a couple good builds of each type, there are tons. Finally, the argument is ultimately about the viability of monks. I don't know if their lot improves considerably with prestige classes, but it definitely does at least a little. I've never really argued that monks are terrible with prestige classes, just that they're terrible as a regular base class.

Edit: Just a query. Are there any CR1 monsters that you guys think can take this barbarian, or should we just move on to CR2? Most of these monsters tend to die in a similar manner to the dog, but if there's a particularly powerful CR1 opponent, it could be relevant.

[MukkTB]

Having not read the other thread can we have a clear goal in the op? Is this a PVE or PVP exercise? What are we comparing and what are we trying to beat.

[TuggyNE]

It's PvE, I believe; the idea is to match it up to more or less representative encounters of the corresponding levels. Sort of a Same Game Test Lite.

Re Barbarian, I suggest moving to CR 2; the riding dog is surprisingly effective at its job, so if it fails, not much will likely succeed.

[eggynack]

Having not read the other thread can we have a clear goal in the op? Is this a PVE or PVP exercise? What are we comparing and what are we trying to beat.
Well, based on the last thread it's generally been a study of whether the class can usually (more that 50%) beat a monster of their CR. That's mostly what we did there. For more complex classes, having a total adventure experience is quite worth it. However, for these classes whose real contribution to any campaign is hitting stuff and hitting stuff harder, I feel that this method is likely sufficient. PvP could always come up too, but someone's going to need to make a monk build for that.

[eggynack]

It's PvE, I believe; the idea is to match it up to more or less representative encounters of the corresponding levels. Sort of a Same Game Test Lite.

Re Barbarian, I suggest moving to CR 2; the riding dog is surprisingly effective at its job, so if it fails, not much will likely succeed.
Yeah, alright. I'll probably run some encounters tomorrow, but here's a preliminary on how this barbarian differs from the other one. Putting all of the stats down doesn't seem that important, because they're not that different. Our noble barbarian gets 900 GP at this level, which is mostly enough to just upgrade the weapon and armor. Our noble barbarian has a dex bonus of 2, which means his most optimal armor at this level is chain mail. This pumps his AC by one point, to 17.

This level, we're trading out uncanny dodge for improved trip, as per wolf totem. Therefore, we're changing weapons from a greatsword to a guisarme. It loses 2 points of damage for reach, which helps for combat reflexes, and trip, which helps for improved trip. The barbarian has 750 GP left over for his weapon, but that puts him in an uncomfortable in between point where he has too much money for masterwork, and too little for magic. Thus, he gets a masterwork guisarme rather than a regular one, leaving us with 441 GP. If we're operating under the assumption that the barbarian is selling last levels items to pay for those of this level, he only has 391 GP. I suppose the barbarian will save the money unless there's something good to pick up that I'm missing.

Edit: By the by, any preferences for the CR 2 monster the barbarian's going to fight? I'd rather not go alphabetically through 44 monsters like I was doing at CR 6 in the last thread. Preferably, it'd be just about the hardest thing for its CR, and then if he fails we'd either modulate the CR downward, or the barbarian's optimization upward. There's actually a good amount of wiggle room on that riding dog fight, so we could theoretically change the barbarian to do worse against the dog and better against the CR2 guys.

[MukkTB]

For the purposes of the experiment I think a single enemy well representative of that CR sounds good. The toughest one sounds fine, but monsters that are incorrectly CR'd shouldn't be in the lineup.

[limejuicepowder]

I nominate a dretch. I always thought they were fairly tough for a CR 2 creature, but nothing insane. They also aren't 1-trick ponies, with nothing but a gimmicky SLA as some monsters are at this level (barbs will probably stomp such a creature).

[HalfQuart]

Dretch certainly isn't a bad choice... but I find that swarms also tend to be difficult for their CR.. at CR2 from the SRD that would be Rat Swarm or Bat Swarm... with Bat Swarm probably being the hardest with its immunity to weapon damage, and nauseating and wounding abilities.

To make your Barbarian viable against a Bat Swarm, you'd probably just have to use some of that gold to buy a few flasks of Alchemist's Fire or something.

Edit: fixed typo.

[Gavinfoxx]

Legally Free online:
Guide to Free D&D (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=513)

[eggynack]

Yeah, I have no idea how our barbarian can deal with a bat swarm. I also have no idea how the monk or warrior can deal with a bat swarm. They could all invest in alchemist's fire, but it all seems like a bit of a wash to me. A dretch it is then. I suppose that now's as good a time as any to put some vital statistics down. He's got about 24.5 HP, which rounds down to 24 now, but gives him an extra point later. his raging routine, which is the more relevant one for this fight, goes +7/+7 at 2d4+9. Conveniently, his high natural damage bonus means that his damage is never reduced to zero, and subsequently raised to one, which makes the math easier.

I'm going to first run a fight with the barbarian attacking first, because it makes a lot of things simpler. The dretch has some complicated things it can pull off if it goes first, though I don't think that scare actually does anything. Stinking cloud seems to be better, but it suffers from the same problem, which is the barbarian's higher move speed. The dretch just doesn't seem to have a way to capitalize on all the free rounds.

Round 1: The barbarian goes into a rage. He runs up to 10 feet away, and hits the dretch in the head with his guisarme twice. Tripping may be more viable, so I'll consider it if the barbarian loses. In any case, he hits 60% of the time, and each hit does 3.4 damage, dealing a total of 6.8 damage, and putting the demon to 6.2 HP.

The dretch takes a 5-foot step forward both to avoid the attack of opportunity, and to get a full attack in. On his first two attacks, he hits 30% of the time, so those deal 2.7 damage. The next attack hits 20% of the time, so that totals up to 3.2 damage. The barbarian's HP is now at 20.8. (note: I think his damage might be less than this. The barbarian should have higher AC, as per whirling frenzy.)

Round 2: The barbarian kills the dretch. I guess I can stick some numbers down. He takes a 5 foot step back, and hits the dretch twice with 60% odds of success. After damage reduction, these attacks deal 6.8 damage, which puts the dretch to -.6 HP Thus concludes the fight. Were the barbarian to not kill the dretch this round, then it would take the dretch an additional 6.5 rounds to kill the barbarian.

Now the real question here is, are the dretch's spell likes viable options in this fight? I'd suggest that they are not. After fast movement, the barbarian has a 30ft move speed compared to the dretch's 20. This means that scare is certain to do nothing, because the barbarian is forced to run away faster than the dretch can. The stinking cloud seems better, but suffers from similar problems. The barbarian's fort saves are also quite good, as he gets a +6 to them, so the barbarian has a 30% likelihood of not being effected.

So that wraps up that one. Does anyone else see a path to likely victory for the dretch, or is this one just in the barbarian's favor? The latter seems to be true, but I suppose I could be wrong. In a more comprehensive breakdown, tripping might enter the equation. The barbarian is quite good at it, and the dretch is small, so it'd probably work. Tripping would almost certainly come into it if the dretch acted first, at least if the dretch ran in. It's one of the main reasons that I chose to have the barbarian go first for this one.

[Immabozo]

For the purposes of the experiment I think a single enemy well representative of that CR sounds good. The toughest one sounds fine, but monsters that are incorrectly CR'd shouldn't be in the lineup.

IMO, that basically rules out MMIII (CR given is too low for monster's capability)

EDIT: If I was to build a fighter, what are the restrictions on feat selection? If I was to build a monk, could I do a 1 level dip in cleric?

[Callin]

When you say "Warrior" are we talking the NPC or the Generic? Because im a HUGE fan of the Generic over the actual PHB Fighter.

[Lans]

NPC, as its there for control purposes to see if the monk can hit hard enough compared to a tier 6 class. I figure if he is equal or a little less then he's still tier 5 by virtue of higher saves, and skills. If he is a lot worse then thats a different story.

@ Eggynack Why is your hit percentage jumping 10% on round 2?
I think heavy and light warhorses look like they are the toughest CR 1 and 2 monsters.

[Callin]

Dang.. then i guess i better quit building that Generic then huh... I might just toss it out anyways since im building it.

[Callin]

Ok Im sure I left something out but all well. I didnt spend the full 900g and im just gonna say its been used in consumables and general living yadda yadda yadda.

I also have no idea how to do what eggynack "The Barbarian" did with the percentiles what not.

Edit: did the lvl 2 thing since that was the last one done

Warrior lvl 2 human with 900gp

Str-16
Dex-16
Con-12
Int-12
Wis-12
Cha-8

Fort - 0+1= 2
Ref - 3+3= 6
Will - 0+1= 1

HP 17 (full first half second)
AC 10+4+4+1 = 19 (Chain Shirt + Buckler(both Masterwork)415gp)

Longsword +6 1d8+3 (15gp)
Comp Shortbow (+2) +5 1d6+2 (225gp)

Skills:
Hide -4+3-1= 6
Move Silently -4+3-1= 6
Handle Animal -4-1 = 3
Spot -2+1 = 3


Feats:
H - Animal Cohort
B - Sneak Attack 2d6
1 - Weapon Focus: Longsword
B2- Evasion

Wolf
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +2 natural, +2 Leather Barding), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Survival +1*
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite)

Wears Leather Barding (20gp)

AS NPC!!!

Use same everything other than what I change here

Fort 2+1= 3
Ref 0+3= 3
Will 0+1= 1

HP 14 (first full half second)

Skills
Handle Animal 5-1= 4
Jump 5+3+ 8
Swim 5+3= 8

Feats
H- Animal Cohort
1- Weapon Focus: Longsword

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, here's how it is going to play out:

Barbarian will be able to dominate, even without splatbook help, due to full BAB and Power Attack. Granted, you can't get into fun tricks like Shock Trooper, but you are still going to be the highest damage output of the three.

Out of combat, he's also got utility. With Wolf Totem variant from the d20 SRD, he's got Tracking and Improved Trip as bonus feats, meaning he now has Crowd Control in addition to Out Of Combat Utility.

The Warrior comes in right behind the Barbarian for damage output. He doesn't have all the fancy feats that the Fighter has, but he's still got full BAB and a d10 HD, which means he can take a hit and dish it out with reliable accuracy. Power Attack will help his damage output, but not by as much as the Barbarian can, since the Barbarian's Rage increases his Str further in combat, thus increasing his attack bonus, so he can trade off more BAB for damage than the Warrior can.

The Warrior also does get Intimidate, so he can Imperious Command, and he also pick up EWP: Spiked Chain and Improved Trip (assuming stats permit) for okay battlefield control.

He has almost no out of combat utility, however.

The Monk, sadly, comes in last. Again. And here's why:

He's a 3/4 BAB class who is trying to compete with full BAB classes. This is a significantly telling point. His base unarmed damage is higher, but both the Barbarian and the Fighter are easily out-damaging him due to having a weapon doing 2d6 or 2d4 base damage, and likely having a higher Str since they have fewer stats to care about. He CAN pick up Power Attack via the Overwhelming Attack style presented in the D20 SRD's Variant Classes section, but due to his 3/4 BAB, he won't be able to devote as much to it, and he'll start running into problems with missing if he puts too much into it.

The Monk also has a lower HD and likely a lower Con as well (since Str and Con are all the two previous classes care about, unless going for Intimidate optimization), meaning he is decidedly squishier.

Out of combat, the Monk makes a good Scout... assuming he's got the skill points to devote to the task. That means either a significant investment in Int, meaning lower overall other stats, or it means he's not really going to be doing as well at this. Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen will all be required for this roll, that's four skills right there. So if he wants to be able to do anything else, he needs a higher than 10 on his Int, and it means he can't afford to dump his Int to an 8. But he's got the speed and mobility to be an effective scout if set up for it properly.

On the whole, given the choice, unless I didn't have a Rogue, Scout, or nearly any other passable scout-type class in the group, I'd go with Barbarian. That would also mean not having a caster that can cast Summon Disposable Minion to scout for us. Failing that, I'd pick up the Warrior as a meat shield and beatstick. Only if there was a desperate need for a scout role would I even consider the Monk.

And this is considering the limitations on splatbooks you mentioned. Adding in splatbooks, and the Barbarian can even do Trapfinding, making him a slam-dunk.

[DeltaEmil]

The Warrior comes in right behind the Barbarian for damage output. He doesn't have all the fancy feats that the Fighter has, but he's still got full BAB and a d10 HD, which means he can take a hit and dish it out with reliable accuracy. NPC warrior only gets a d8 HD.

[eggynack]

@ Eggynack Why is your hit percentage jumping 10% on round 2?
I think heavy and light warhorses look like they are the toughest CR 1 and 2 monsters.
On round one after activating frenzy, the barbarian gets a +2 to attack from strength, however he also gets a -2 to attack from whirling frenzy. In the round after activation the bonus from strength stays, but the penalty from whirling frenzy goes away. Hence, the barbarian gets +2 in the rounds after one. I suppose I can run against horses in a bit. It's not the most complicated fight in the world.

NPC warrior only gets a d8 HD.
This is true, however samurai get d10, which I see as another advantage of using them over warriors. Using warriors as a base line is neat for control purposes, but samurai means that even if the monk proves to be better than warriors, monks could still be tier 6. It's something to think about.

Edit: It looks like the light warhorse clearly loses. It takes the warhorse at least three rounds to kill the barbarian if it hits every round and gets max damage each round. The barbarian hits over half the time, twice a round, for an average damage of at least 16 per round. That kills the horse in two rounds. The light warhorse dies through eyeballing and rough approximation, and does much worse if I start putting it through real math.

Double edit: Crap. Missed the full attack stuff. I'll run the full thing in the most recent post.

[WhatBigTeeth]

On round one after activating frenzy, the barbarian gets a +2 to attack from strength, however he also gets a -2 to attack from whirling frenzy. In the round after activation the bonus from strength stays, but the penalty from whirling frenzy goes away. Hence, the barbarian gets +2 in the rounds after one. I suppose I can run against horses in a bit. It's not the most complicated fight in the world.
That's one doozy of an interpretation. Do you want us to assume the Monk's flurry gets the same benefits, since it uses identical phrasing?

[eggynack]

That's one doozy of an interpretation. Do you want us to assume the Monk's flurry gets the same benefits, since it uses identical phrasing?
I may have been incorrect about the reading I used. Ah well, I'm pretty sure that all of the monsters so far have died in the right amount of time though, so it's probably unnecessary to go back and make big changes. Like, the first round hits against the dretch kills it if that same attack is repeated, and the riding dog fight still uses only the first round to finish the job. This should make things easier, actually.

Edit: Here's some fuller light warhorse battle stats.
Round one: The horse runs in and hoofs the barbarian for an average 2.475 damage, putting the barbarian to 21.25 HP.
The barbarian enters a frenzy, and double-stabs the horse for an average 19.2 damage, putting the horse at 2.2 HP.

Round 2: The horse gets an all new full attack routine for maximum fanciness. The hooves do 3.85 damage, and the bite does .25 damage. Altogether, this routine deals 4.1 damage, putting the barbarian to 17.175.
The barbarian does the same thing as last round, dealing a total of 38.4 damage sending the horse to -16.4 HP. Barbarian wins for great victory! Should the barbarian choose to pursue the route of pacifism prior to killing the horse, the horse will take another 4.1 rounds to kill the barbarian. Maybe I'll run the heavy warhorse fight later. I suspect it'll go the same way though.

[Lans]

On round one after activating frenzy, the barbarian gets a +2 to attack from strength, however he also gets a -2 to attack from whirling frenzy. In the round after activation the bonus from strength stays, but the penalty from whirling frenzy goes away. Hence, the barbarian gets +2 in the rounds after one. I suppose I can run against horses in a bit. It's not the most complicated fight in the world.
No, he takes a -2 penalty for a round when ever he makes an additional attack from whirling frenzy, not when he enters the frenzy.



Edit: It looks like the light warhorse clearly loses. It takes the warhorse at least three rounds to kill the barbarian if it hits every round and gets max damage each round. The barbarian hits over half the time, twice a round, for an average damage of at least 16 per round. That kills the horse in two rounds. The light warhorse dies through eyeballing and rough approximation, and does much worse if I start putting it through real math.
I didn't think the horse would win, just that it would be closer than the dog.

[eggynack]

Here's an interesting thing. I think that the heavy warhorse also loses to the level 1 barbarian. To the testing, ahoy.

Round 1: Horse gallops up and stomps the barbarian to the face for an average 4.125 damage, putting the barbarian at 10.875
The barbarian enters a frenzy, and stabs the horse with a damage identical to that of the last fight. He thus deals 19.2 damage, getting the horse down to 10.8

Round 2: The horse, in his last bid for life, full attacks the barbarian. The hooves deal 6.75 damage, and the bite deals .9 damage. The barbarian is down to 3.825 HP.
The barbarian stabs the horse for another 19.2 damage, sending him to the grave with -8.4 HP. Had the horse survived the attack, the subsequent horse full attack would have killed the barbarian. It's thus a pretty close match (though the circumstances were favorable to the horse) but that's to be expected when fighting a higher CR'd opponent.
Barbarians are cool.

[Immabozo]

No, he takes a -2 penalty for a round when ever he makes an additional attack from whirling frenzy, not when he enters the frenzy.

QFT. Although, I like my definition for that abbreviation better than what it really really. Quite f***ing true.

[Lans]

Yeah, Whriling Frenzy is tops, the enemy running for 6 rounds might be the best choice for them, or for the dretch to use scare and keep distance till you became exhausted not sure if he gets exhausted/fatigued.
Could you bold remaining hp after the fight, and put how many more rounds it would take for the monster to kill the character or for the character to kill the monster for other classes?

[eggynack]

Yeah, Whriling Frenzy is tops, the enemy running for 6 rounds might be the best choice for them, or for the dretch to use scare and keep distance till you became exhausted not sure if he gets exhausted/fatigued.
Could you bold remaining hp after the fight, and put how many more rounds it would take for the monster to kill the character or for the character to kill the monster for other classes?
Yeah, alright. I'll edit in some HP counts, and the required number of rounds for the monster to kill the barbarian if the barbarian hadn't killed the monster. I should also put some thought into the viability of the monsters just running away after rage, and engaging at that point.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure that's all of them. That format's probably a bit more readable.

[Immabozo]

Yeah, alright. I'll edit in some HP counts, and the required number of rounds for the monster to kill the barbarian if the barbarian hadn't killed the monster. I should also put some thought into the viability of the monsters just running away after rage, and engaging at that point.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure that's all of them. That format's probably a bit more readable.

But, in the case of mindless undead and animals, they are not capable of tactical thought

[eggynack]

But, in the case of mindless undead and animals, they are not capable of tactical thought
This is indeed true, and a good majority of the enemies our noble barbarian has faced fall into those categories. There's other mitigating factors worth considering too, like relative speed, and what happens after a chase. Still, it's a thing that needs to be taken into consideration in at least some amount of cases. The dretch probably comes the closest to being able to pull it off, given that he has two spell likes that facilitate the strategy. As a sidenote, I think I calculated DR the wrong way. It should probably be applied before the percentage chance of hitting, rather than after. I'm pretty sure that this actually gives the barbarian higher damage, rather than lower, so the dretch is even more dead than before.

[Mato]

Naked No-Race Generic-Monk 1
PB 32 (as barb): Str 18, wis 16, Con 14.
Feats: Passive Way granted Combat Expertise & Battle Jump.
Skills: Balance 4, Jump 4, UMD* 2.

Vs Riding Dog (13hp, 16 ac, +3/1d6+3).
Standing toe to toe the Monk has 40% chance to hit the Dog has 50%.
Monk deals 7.5 and needs to hit twice, Dog deals 6.5 and also needs to hit twice. The Riding Dog has a 40% chance of successfully Tripping.
Toe-to-toe the Monk uses FoB, 30/30 chance helps hit rate and makes him hit more often than the Dog, plus there is a very small chance (9%) end the Encounter in a single round. However, if they do not start next to each other the Monk can attempt to charge the dog, a 50% chance to drop the dog into negatives with a single attack.

Summery, low levels are pretty random. But the Monk squeezes in some one-round KOs odds to tip survivability odds in his favor. Plus I'm sure some Racial Bonuses would help things out.
Is he Competent? Yes. A solo battle against an equal CR opponent is supposed to consume 100% of your resources, which sounds like a 50% chance of death to me. And the Monk has less than that, which is all that matters.


Round 1: Dog runs up and bites our noble barbarian. This deals 2.9 damage on average.And if the dog deals less than three damage per hit (impossible) the Monk can survive for till the fourth round even if the Dog never missed. So, now it's a cakewalk.

[eggynack]

Starting from the basics, and working our way up, the barbarian I was using was made under the requirement of using stuff that's legally free online. Battle jump is not. You didn't put actual damage per attack on anything, so your damage claims are a bit unsubstantiated. The dog deals an average of 2.9 damage because he misses the barbarian so much. The fact that his hits always do more than three damage is balanced out by so many of his attacks dealing zero damage. The monk doesn't have this luxury, so he'll probably take more than three damage on average. You didn't put in the statistics for what trip does damagewise, so that's important too.

What you need to do is create an actual battle. Have either the dog or the monk go first, and have them hit each other till one dies. If racial bonuses would help, then get some racial bonuses. Put the full statistics of the fight up, not your estimates and assertions.

Edit: By average damage per attack, I once again mean damage*hit chance. It's probabilistically the amount of damage your monk will do every time he attempts to punch the dog. Statistics like, "Chance of one shotting" are frankly irrelevant, especially when I've already demonstrated that the barbarian does so more than half the time. How's your guy do against the heavy warhorse by the way? That's the level that the barbarian is currently fighting at at level one.

[Mato]

{Scrubbed}

[eggynack]

{scrubbed}
I'm not making the rules. The OP laid out two scenarios, the first of which being that you only have access to stuff that's online, and the second of which being that you have access to everything. If you're comparing to my barbarian, then he was built according to the first scenario. I don't see why you don't understand how damage statistics works. The dog does 6.5 damage per hit on average. If he hits half the time, then half the time he'll do 6.5 damage, and half the time he'll do 0 damage. You average out the two results, and he's doing 3.2 damage a turn on average. The riding dog can't do 3.2 damage on a single attack, however over 100 attacks, the dog will deal about 320 damage, which is what this number represents. The damage approaches 3.2 damage per hit more and more as the number of rolls goes to infinity. It's just math, there's no need to be rude about it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, so I am making a monk for this. Stats: 16, 16, 16, 8, 14, 6. No race (because they all rather suck for Core Monk at level 1). He is on the denying stance path, so his bonus feat is locked to improved grapple and he gets +2 to tumble. I will simulate some combat later.

[eggynack]

I think you're a bit high on stats. Your current point buy is at 34, which is 2 higher than it's supposed to be. I'm also pretty sure that you're not allowed to have a stat lower than 8. You should probably just have your guy be a human if you're not sure. More feats is usually a good thing.

[ZamielVanWeber]

:smallamused:I could not get to my table so I had to use a calculator. It let me drop to 6 to recoup points so I figured that was alright. I will fix that. Also no, the feats suck. There are none even remotely relevant that I can take. I think Dwarf is the best way to go here. I can keep my stat pan at least.

Edit: Dwarf is it. Stats adjusted to 16, 16, 16, 10, 14, 8

[eggynack]

That actually balances out surprisingly well. The stats may stay intact. You still have a free feat, and like 12.5 gold if that does anything.

edit: The end charisma is actually 6 now. It matches up super well to your original stats.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Typo there on the 8. I figured, since this is one on one, I would try to take advantage of the monk's superior grapple damage at low levels. Also for the feat I picked Improved Initiative. Everything else available came off as... Bad. Unless I am mistaken, natural weapons can be used in a grapple, so this build works better against class levels then monsters.

Edit: I forgot that delicious -4 to hit. I will need to figure out exactly how to work this out, but grappling seems the way to go.

[eggynack]

Well, I'm pretty sure that the character is strictly worse than the barbarian if he doesn't grapple. I don't know how to work grappling though. It's tricky. It's like, every turn the fight becomes either a grappling fight, or a not-grappling fight. There are a few issues with grappling, I think. First of all, every round that it remains a not-grappling fight is a round wasted, and another round that you get stabbed some percentage of the way to death. The second problem is the one you noted above, which is that it's really not that effective against a lot of monsters. Some monsters have ridiculous grapple mods due to size modifiers, and some monsters gain a strategic benefit over your monk by grappling you because of that. You're only at +3 to grapple mod over the barbarian, which isn't really that high a chance of success. Your monk likely has a theoretical advantage over other PC's due to grappling, however he's probably at an actual disadvantage because he's presumably facing something more powerful than a monk. It's all somewhat problematic.

[DeltaEmil]

A monk normally has no natural attacks. However, a monk's unarmed strike does count as a natural attack or as a manufactured weapon for the purpose of effects that enhance or improve those unarmed strikes, like spells and effects.
So you can get the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase the monk's unarmed strike damage.
You only get the -4 penalty to the attack roll when making a melee attack in a grapple. If you make an opposed grapple check to deal damage to the opponent, you don't take that penalty. And with the Improved Grapple feat, you even get a +4 bonus to all Grapple checks.
At low levels, the NPC warrior or the barbarian's BAB aren't too high yet, so the monk does stand a chance to win the grapple, and unless the warrior or the barbarian manage to escape the grapple or do have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat themselves, are kinda hosed in grapple.
But that's still iffy.

[limejuicepowder]

Huh I really expected the dretch to fair slightly better than that. Barbs are pretty beast.

I imagine the monk would have a terrible time of it though, just because of the DR. 16 str and BaB +1 gives a single attack at +4, or a 45% chance to hit the dretch. DR reduces his damage to 1d6-2....and here's where it gets more complicated. DR can reduce damage to zero, and if the monk rolls a 1 or 2, his damage is entirely negated. 33% of his hits are entirely negated. The remaining 66% deal 1-4 damage for an average of 2.5. This effectively makes his "chance to hit" only 30% (2/3 of his hits actually do something), for an average of .75 damage/round.

Flurrying changes his attacks to +2/+2, or 20% chance of success (including DR). This drops each to .5 damage/round, or 1 damage/round overall. This means it takes the monk 13 rounds to kill stagger the dretch.

On the other side of the combat, the dretch has a 50% chance to hit with the claws and a 40% chance to hit with the bite (monk has AC 15, by my calculations). The claws deal 2.75/hit/round each, and the bite does 1/round. This totals to 6.5 damage per round, which drops the monk to -1.5 in the third round.

Yes the two combatants just stood there full attacking, but the point is fairly clear I think: the monk better bust out some sick tactics if he wants to win. He has to figure out a way to get in nearly 5 times more full attack routines if he wants any chance at all.

One more thing about the dretch: they have a 35% chance of summoning another dretch. Not a great chance, and even if he succeeded I don't think it would change anything against the barb (the barb would just loose a bit more HP). The monk on the other hand would be completely, 100% screwed*

*Edit: grappling would become a death sentence. After all, grappling is still going to make the monk do less damage, he'll just survive slightly longer. But not if the dretch's twin brother is tearing the monk a new one at the same time.

Does anyone else constantly type monk as mink?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, so, here we go. Grappling makes this brutally difficult because it adds than nice random later of math. For simplicity I will crunch this set under the assumption that the dog will always attempt to attack in the grapple rather then escape it and run the combat three times. The monk will always close for the grapple and the dog will attack the monk. I will edit the numbers in a bit. It seems the fairest way to run this. I can convert or do things to up my grapple at higher levels, but it is my best option for now.

[eggynack]

OK. I'm clearly just at a loss here, but how does DR work exactly? Like, statistically, not in game terms. I think I got it worked out for the barbarian, and it's better than what I listed. It's like (average damage-5)*chance to attack, where I had it at (average damage*attack chance)-5. How does it even work if some of the damage values are below the DR? I mean, I think I actually know, but it sucks. Like, imagine a riding dog attacking the dretch. Usually, the dog deals an average damage of 6.5, which is a reasonable number. With DR though, it's more complicated. For a die roll of one or two, the damage gets reduced to one, and the four higher values are computed as normal. Therefore, the damage is something like (2/6*1+4/6*4.5). Frigging tricky. I think the average damage comes out to 3.6666... Then you multiply by the chance to hit.

Grappling seems to make it a cakewalk by comparison. I think that the way to do it, is to figure out how combat looks in a grapple, and then give each round a percentage chance of descending into that state, which acts cumulatively each round. Frigging terrible. I don't even know how to do that.

Edit: I think that we should start out by running a battle between the riding dog and the monk with them starting the fight in a grapple, and see how that looks. If the monk wins that, then we know that grappling is worthwhile in that situation, and the extent to which it is. Moreover, we have an estimate of when the dog should grapple, and when it should not-grapple.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Don't forget that, if the monk fails a grapple to damage, nothing happens. If the dog succeeds a grapple to escape, THEN we start over. The two grapples must be differentiated. I think running a small number, 3-5, of rounds to see if a clear advantage appears is best. At least for low levels.

[limejuicepowder]

OK. I'm clearly just at a loss here, but how does DR work exactly? Like, statistically, not in game terms. I think I got it worked out for the barbarian, and it's better than what I listed. It's like (average damage-5)*chance to attack, where I had it at (average damage*attack chance)-5. How does it even work if some of the damage values are below the DR? I mean, I think I actually know, but it sucks. Like, imagine a riding dog attacking the dretch. Usually, the dog deals an average damage of 6.5, which is a reasonable number. With DR though, it's more complicated. For a die roll of one or two, the damage gets reduced to one, and the four higher values are computed as normal. Therefore, the damage is something like (2/6*1+4/6*4.5). Frigging tricky. I think the average damage comes out to 3.6666... Then you multiply by the chance to hit.

Grappling seems to make it a cakewalk by comparison. I think that the way to do it, is to figure out how combat looks in a grapple, and then give each round a percentage chance of descending into that state, which acts cumulatively each round. Frigging terrible. I don't even know how to do that.

Edit: I think that we should start out by running a battle between the riding dog and the monk with them starting the fight in a grapple, and see how that looks. If the monk wins that, then we know that grappling is worthwhile in that situation, and the extent to which it is. Moreover, we have an estimate of when the dog should grapple, and when it should not-grapple.

DR only gets odd if it can reduce damage to 0. If it can't, just tack it on to average damage.

If it can, calculate the chance that it reduces each hit to zero and adjust hit chance accordingly, since a negated hit is the same a miss. In the monk example I ran, his 45% chance to hit drops to 30% since 1/3 if the hits deal zero damage (a 1 or a 2 on a d6 is negated, giving 1/3).

Also, remember that DR is still taken away from average damage.

Edit: I'm not terribly familiar with the grapple rules, but isn't the monk grappling a creature with natural weapons just a wash since they are both hampered equally? Yes it would make combat last longer, but it won't let the monk do faster damage relative to the damage his opponent is doing.

The only thing that actually helps then is a pin. I think grappling boils down to what is the chance the monk has of holding a pin, and apply that chance to his opponent's hit chance. Thus if the monk has a 40% chance to maintain a pin on any round (negating all chance of hit), his opponent's hit chance is reduced by 40%.

I'm assuming the monk can attack while holding someone/something immobile. If he can't, grappling is a complete waste of time against anything with natural weapons as a primary attack.

[eggynack]

Here's a quick analysis of the monk's ability to grapple the dog. The monk's to hit is at 3, so the touch attack has a 60% chance of victory. The monk's grapple mod is 4 points higher than the dog, so I think that gives him a 62.5% chance of grappling once that comes up. It might be 60%, I'm not sure yet. Either way, the chance of starting up a grapple is 37.5%. The dog's chances of escaping the grapple on the subsequent turn are also 37.5%. This is a pickle. It looks like it's not viable, though the math might be off by a little. If it's off, I think it's off in the monk's favor though.

[Lans]

For DR if the minimum isn't below 0 you can just do (Avg-DR)*hit rate if it gets reduced below 0 like with the monk you need to figure out the new average. (-1+0+1+2+3+4)/6*hit rate

[eggynack]

DR only gets odd if it can reduce damage to 0. If it can't, just tack it on to average damage.

If it can, calculate the chance that it reduces each hit to zero and adjust hit chance accordingly, since a negated hit is the same a miss. In the monk example I ran, his 45% chance to hit drops to 30% since 1/3 if the hits deal zero damage (a 1 or a 2 on a d6 is negated, giving 1/3).

Also, remember that DR is still taken away from average damage.
I think that's how I did it. It's just super annoying. Average damage is usually the easiest part of running these things, and with damage reduction it becomes just another thing. It's finicky getting all of these numbers into a statistical format sometimes, especially for some of these calculations which I'm effectively doing for the first time. Speaking of, I think I got the grapple stuff right, but I'm not sure. The monk has 4 points over the dog, which counts as 5 points because the monk wins on ties. Each point over counts as 2.5%. I think that comes out right, and it's how I did it.

[eggynack]

For DR if the minimum isn't below 0 you can just do (Avg-DR)*hit rate if it gets reduced below 0 like with the monk you need to figure out the new average. (-1+0+1+2+3+4)/6*hit rate
This definitely seems like a reasonable way to do it too. I think that the -1 and the 0 both become 1's though, so it's (1+1+1+2+3+4)/6*hit rate. Those ones are the things that were probably causing me problems in the first place.

[limejuicepowder]

Sorry, I posted this stuff as an edit above. I just want to put it down here to so people see it.

----

I'm not terribly familiar with the grapple rules, but isn't the monk grappling a creature with natural weapons just a wash since they are both hampered equally? Yes it would make combat last longer, but it won't let the monk do faster damage relative to the damage his opponent is doing.

The only thing that actually helps then is a pin. I think grappling boils down to what is the chance the monk has of holding a pin, and apply that chance to his opponent's hit chance. Thus if the monk has a 40% chance to maintain a pin on any round (negating all chance of hit), his opponent's hit chance is reduced by 40%.

I'm assuming the monk can attack while holding someone/something immobile. If he can't, grappling is a complete waste of time against anything with natural weapons as a primary attack.

[limejuicepowder]

This definitely seems like a reasonable way to do it too. I think that the -1 and the 0 both become 1's though, so it's (1+1+1+2+3+4)/6*hit rate. Those ones are the things that were probably causing me problems in the first place.

They definitely shouldn't become 1's, DR explicitly can reduce damage to zero. If 0 or lower is rounded to 1, it's not doing that.

[eggynack]

They definitely shouldn't become 1's, DR explicitly can reduce damage to zero. If 0 or lower is rounded to 1, it's not doing that.
I did not know this. I do not know why I did not know this. That probably makes it much easier then. It would just be (1+2+3+4)*2/3. The negative numbers just get rounded to zeros.

Edit: Wait. Nope. It's just divided by 6. It's (0+0+1+2+3+4)/6, which comes out to (1+2+3+4)/6.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorry, I posted this stuff as an edit above. I just want to put it down here to so people see it.

----

I'm not terribly familiar with the grapple rules, but isn't the monk grappling a creature with natural weapons just a wash since they are both hampered equally? Yes it would make combat last longer, but it won't let the monk do faster damage relative to the damage his opponent is doingt.
The monl does his unarmed (1d6+3) on a successful grapple check. The dog may make a single attack at -4 on a successful grapple. I come out way ahead there. As long as the dog tried to attack in the grapple, its average damage tanks to approximately .23 while the monl's sits at roughly 4.23.

[eggynack]

In that case, it seems obvious that the dog would try to escape each time. I think I ran the numbers somewhere in the other thread, and I remember the monk losing. If he tries to grapple every round, he gets hit twice, and succeeds the third time. Then, he hits twice, and then they leave the grapple. That approximate thing continues to happen throughout the combat, and I think the dog comes out ahead on the exchange, especially with tripping.

edit: Also, I think his damage actually drops to 1.625. He's hitting at -1 to hit, which means he hits the monk's 15 AC on a 16. That comes out to a 25% chance, which works out to the number I said. You were about right on the monk, though I think it's actually 4.0625. The monk has 11 HP, so he dies in 6.769 turns. The dog has 13 HP, so he dies in 3.2 rounds. That's if we're starting in a grapple though. I think it might move to the dog's favor in a real combat.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If the dog breaks out it used his attack, so the monk can auto matically restart the grapple. Also, the best bet for the monk is to pin every round. When he successfully pins he can try to grapple for damage for free and the dog can only try to grapple to break from the pin.

[eggynack]

If the dog breaks out it used his attack, so the monk can auto matically restart the grapple. Also, the best bet for the monk is to pin every round. When he successfully pins he can try to grapple for damage for free and the dog can only try to grapple to break from the pin.
I don't think it works like that. He can attempt to restart the grapple, but it's at the same odds as the first time he tried it. I don't see why it'd be any different.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It does. I looked it up. A successful pin lets you immediately try to perform a grapple check to do unarmed damage.

[eggynack]

No, I meant in reference to breaking the grapple. If the dog breaks the grapple, it's probably going to take another three rounds to get the dog back into the grapple.

[eggynack]

In addition to all of that stuff, even if the monk is capable of beating the dog, he's still clearly inferior to the barbarian. The monk is kinda straddling the line of killing the dog, while the barbarian is killing it in one hit. Moreover, what can this monk do against something like a light warhorse, let alone a heavy one? Even at level one, the monk's grapple modifier is sometimes being dwarfed by his enemy's mod, and it's a problem which gets exacerbated with additional levels.

[Captnq]

Here's my solution for #2

11th level monk WBL: 66,000 gp

Manyfang Dagger. Add morphing. Make it only usable by LG. New cost: 35,302.
I morph it into a Ward Cestus. Now it does my monk unarmed damage, but still retains the x4 damage on every blow.


Bracers of Striking [Vicious] LG only, 2,800 gp
Now I do 2d6 damage to my enemy, and 1d6 to myself.


Necklace of Natural Weapons [Wrathful healing] LG only, 13,020 gp.
Now I heal half the damage I cause.


And lets be rude...
Monk Belt, LG only, 9,100 gp.


Still got 5,778 WBL to spare. I'll pick up a hearseeking amulet or something. Whatever. So what does this do? Well... Let's say a Strength of... 16? Sounds reasonable for a 11th level monk. My Max stat is going to be my Con, because I'm going to need the HP to be a proper damage sponge.

Unarmed Strike: 2d8+3 (Avg: 12)
Weapon Enhancement: +1 (Avg: 1)
Vicious WSA: 2d6 (Avg: 7)

Average Damage: 20
Manyfang: x4

Each blow does an average of 80 points of damage. I do an average of 3.5 points of damage to myself. I heal an average of 41.75 HP a blow. I get four blows a round, before I add cleave, AoO feat combos, or any other crap to give me more attacks in the round.

I stand there and get pounded on, then punch a bunch of people to heal from 40 to 160 hit points a round. Meh.


Seriously, what's the point of this? It'd be easier to give you examples if you told me what you were trying to figure out.


Oh. Forgot. If I'm fighting targets of the same power level, let's assume 11d8 HP with +2 from con per HD or 71.5 HP on average. So, on average, each blow that lands puts the target at -8.5 HPs. Just thought I should throw that out there.

[eggynack]

I'm looking through the pile of items, which might take a bit of time, but I don't know where you can buy items for a lower price if they're lawful good only. Especially if they're specific items like the many fang dagger.

edit: As a side note, you technically would be fighting enemies of the same power level as you, but they likely have somewhat higher HP than that. Hydras have 129 HP, for example.

[olentu]

I'm looking through the pile of items, which might take a bit of time, but I don't know where you can buy items for a lower price if they're lawful good only. Especially if they're specific items like the many fang dagger.

I would assume that is using the section of the item pricing guidelines that give a discount of 10% for a skill restriction on the item and a 30% discount for requiring a specific class or alignment.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No, I meant in reference to breaking the grapple. If the dog breaks the grapple, it's probably going to take another three rounds to get the dog back into the grapple.

In the meanwhile the dog's to hit vs my AC is far worse off than my to hit vs the dog's touch, so the damage will be in my favor the entire time. Also remember that when the dog breaks the grapple I essentially get a free.attack on it to regrapple. Your numbers come off as over skewed toward the dog.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that guidelines are guidelines, and would be thusly disallowed from the running. especially for specific weapons. Where would you be able to find a weapon like the many fanged dagger, except it can only be held by lawful good folks? The weapon is usually crafted as is, and then you presumably find people to enchant it with the other stuff. It seems somewhat out of the scope of the all books scenario in the general sense though.

[eggynack]

In the meanwhile the dog's to hit vs my AC is far worse off than my to hit vs the dog's touch, so the damage will be in my favor the entire time. Also remember that when the dog breaks the grapple I essentially get a free.attack on it to regrapple. Your numbers come off as over skewed toward the dog.
Actually, I think it's the other way around. It's not the dog's to hit vs your touch to hit, it's the dog's to hit vs. your to hit, times your chance to grapple. The monk still seems unlikely to beat a light warhorse too. It's a problem of some kind.

Edit: I think he does badly in general against any enemy with a higher grapple mod than him, because it makes grappling distinctly unviable as a tactic. This includes enemies like mules. If they both full attack, the monk deals 5.85 damage over the course of his flurry, to the mule's 5.5 damage. The monk is killing in 3.76 rounds, and the mule is killing in two rounds, straight. Thus, the mule finds victory. The mule has a grapple mod two higher than the monk, making grappling not really work as a plan.

Double edit: He also does pretty badly against enemies with a high touch AC, though presumably less so because that advantage goes away in the grapple. It's an interesting subset of enemy that works against the grapple plan.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Grapple: I make a touch. If it succeeds I start a grapple. I win on even or better (because I have a better mod). If I succeed I start the grapple and unarmed damage.

[eggynack]

Grapple: I make a touch. If it succeeds I start a grapple. I win on even or better (because I have a better mod). If I succeed I start the grapple and unarmed damage.
Quite true. I'm pretty sure the math of that works out how I said though, giving the monk a 37.5% chance of starting up a grapple. I don't know how the whole thing plays out though, because grappling is frigging ridiculous. I guess that running probabilistic numbers on damage, but rolled numbers on grapples, and then running a few combats could work. It's just super annoying. I just feel like this strategy only really works on a percentage of the monster population that's always decreasing. Already, your grapple plan fails to things like horses and mules, and it's just going to get worse.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is a low level strategy. Once the monk hits 3 his core feat selection has dramatically improved. I also realized that Denying Stance is useless beyond improved grapple, so forgot about the stance. I will keep the feat, though. If I build a bit higher I will not worry about grappling except when a good opportunity arises.

[TuggyNE]

11th level monk WBL: 66,000 gp

Manyfang Dagger. Add morphing. Make it only usable by LG. New cost: 35,302.
I morph it into a Ward Cestus. Now it does my monk unarmed damage, but still retains the x4 damage on every blow.


Bracers of Striking [Vicious] LG only, 2,800 gp
Now I do 2d6 damage to my enemy, and 1d6 to myself.


Necklace of Natural Weapons [Wrathful healing] LG only, 13,020 gp.
Now I heal half the damage I cause.


And lets be rude...
Monk Belt, LG only, 9,100 gp.


Still got 5,778 WBL to spare.

I suggest you get dust of sneezing and choking. Pity you can't get a candle of invocation!

Seriously, though, that's some pretty smelly cheese there; Manyfang Dagger is well-known to be broken, cost reduction shenanigans (especially on existing items) are always a bit shaky, and the combo of vicious and wrathful healing is likely to provoke thrown books.

[eggynack]

What feat does he pick at three then? I'm honestly not sure. It might be nice to look at some fights that don't require the construction of a branching combat diagram every turn, just to determine the winner. Suffice to say that I don't necessarily hate grappling, but I definitely hate figuring out the statistics of grappling. We could always run a few fights at CR 3. I'm pretty sure that the rule of thumb is that any decisions you make in a low level fight sticks in the higher level fights. You can change the stuff at high levels, but then you probably have to make sure that you still win at the low levels.

[ZamielVanWeber]

At three I will have to look at items so I synergize better with feats. The important part is that I have BaB, so I can pick up a lot more of the melee feats. At that point huge enemies are something that will pop up, so I cannot use grapple without magical help.:smallamused:

[ZamielVanWeber]

At three I will have to look at items so I synergize better with feats. The important part is that I have BaB, so I can pick up a lot more of the melee feats. At that point huge enemies are something that will pop up, so I cannot use grapple without magical help.:smallamused:

[eggynack]

If that's what we're doing, then I should probably put together a level three barbarian. For the feat, I'm choosing the always excellent knock down, so as to knock enemies down. Out of the 2700 GP of this level, I have 2191. There's not much of interest, so the best options are probably making the guisarme +1, or getting full plate. I think I'll go with the guisarme on a provisional basis. It's something I'm definitely going to do at some point, so I figure that now is as good a time as ever. We're thus left with 191 GP for next level.

Edit: Actually, I think I changed my mind on the item thing. Full plate gets two extra AC, and is pretty much the end of my armor buying days. It reduces my speed by 10 feet, but I can't really care that much. two AC just seems better than one damage in general. I am thus left with 591 GP.

Here's some vital statistics for general perusal. The barbarian gets another 9.5 HP this level, which gets him up to 34 HP. His AC is a pretty solid 19. The full attack routine is the same as last level, except +1. Thus it's +8/+8, for 2d6+9 damage on a frenzy. Simple stuff in general.

What's not so simple, is knock down. For the first time, the barbarian is going to be tripping in a pretty serious way. He's definitely tripping anything with two legs at medium, and maybe some stuff at large too if the stats work out well. The barbarian has a tripping modifier of +8, which is pretty good but not great. Enemies like the medium earth elemental are pretty much perfect for tripping. The barbarian has a solid 60% odds of tripping the opponent after dealing enough damage, a beautiful 100% chance of dealing enough damage if he's in a frenzy, and a pretty good 55% chance of making the hit. That's a 33% chance of tripping each hit, and if he succeeds, he gets a free pair of attacks, and a reprieve from multiple attacks if the enemy has access to them.

There's a slightly problematic downside in the probability that the elemental will trip back. After tripping failure, he has a 40% chance of making a trip of his own, which gives him a free attack of opportunity. You can basically just square the chance of the barbarian tripping to get that statistic for future reference. Either way, the barbarian is incurring a risk of 16% tripping backfire. This is compared to the 60% chance of tripping success, not the 33% chance of total chance to trip. The barbarian also gets significantly more upside on tripping than the elemental does, because of improved trip. The tactic generally seems to have a high degree of upside.

[Mato]

Each blow does an average of 80 points of damage.At level 11? Using Refitting Specific items?

Bones of Li-Peng (didn't look up exact cost) & Monk's Belt (13k) for 20th level Unarmed Damage, or spend a Feat on Superior Unarmed Strike for it, don't care. Add a Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (702gp/charge) to take you to Colossal. Improved Natural Weapon either as a Feat or item (fanged ring), and finally polish off with Ectoplasmic Fist, it's explicitly noted you can have one per limb so long as you have the ML for it. Hidden Talent[psionic minor creation] solves that and gives one heck of an over powered boost in utility. If your a stickler for full-charged Wands, ie can't buy/find/trade and Wands regain all charges on level up or w/e, it should still fit in a 66k budget (legacy weapons are pretty cheap) even through the DMG notes additional undocumented funds for expendables (like wand charges) are given outside of WBL. And an 11th level Monk could both Shadow Blend and Blink so you can skip AC and be a little light on Saves.

Per RC: 2d10 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8.
You can follow the pattern of either it doubles every two size increases then additional virtual size increases would be.
Yields: 16d8 -> 24d8 -> 32d8 -> 48d8 -> 64d8 -> 96d8.

Assuming the Monk takes Snap Kick, an an AoO he can attack twice with a -2 modifier to Attack Rolls and deal 432 damage per hit, or 864 per AoO without factoring other mods. The Monk murders almost everything pre-epic that he hits in one attack, and he has two of them per AoO! With another +12 Mod (such as str) if he could hit a Tarrasque then he could drop it just because tried walking in front of him without ever breaking his stride.

You never really need to deal that much damage and should probably skip half the items mentioned above. I just wanted you to know 80 damage for an 11th level Monk spending over half it's Wealth could be improved, by oh idk, five or ten times over? Even when you're not even using a Standard Action to harm anyone...

[Captnq]

I'm looking through the pile of items, which might take a bit of time, but I don't know where you can buy items for a lower price if they're lawful good only. Especially if they're specific items like the many fang dagger.


DMG:


—Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more
restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.



If you'd like, I'll post up all the rules for making custom magic items from MIC. Trust me, My math is twinky as hell, but RAW as all outdoors.

See, here's the problem... Exceptions.

Everytime you give a race/class/PrC/whatever an exception to the normal rules, there is room for abuse. For example, The three magic items I've listed that all add WSAs to your unarmed attack. In theory, If I also add Greater Magic Fang and take 10 levels of Kensi, I could have a total of +43 in Weapon Enhancement Bonus and Weapon Special Abilities on my fists. What I have presented here is only the most Cost to Benefit ratio combination I could find in ten minutes. Give me a few days, I'll make your head explode.

Amulet of Natural Weapons specifically states you can make your Unarmed Attacks Throwing and Returning (Although I prefer teleporting. Same cost and it follows me to any square I move to.) I mean, I do my Manyfang trick, add Throwing and teleporting, then make it exit wound. Now I punch through everyone in a line for 30 feet at an average of 80 hp each. If I get a slow DM, maybe I'll add splitting. (the errata fixed splitting on throwing things.) Still, disgusting. Anything that adds to the base damage just makes it more disgusting.

Now, it has to add to the base damage or the multiplier doesn't work. But here's another little rules abuse.

Flaming adds 1d6 fire damage, so that wouldn't add to the x4 multiplier of manyfang. HOWEVER, Merciful makes ALL damage the weapon does Nonlethal. So, my 1d6 fire damage is no longer 1d6, but 1d6 nonlethal, so it adds to my base damage and is subject to multiplier.

True, not so useful against those immune to nonlethal, but for most living targets, awful. Just plain awful.

Of course this works because WotC took pity on monks and made multiple ways that WSAs could be added to your unarmed strike. They shouldn't stack by any SANE DM's, but when has WotC ever took the time to check to see if something could be abused?

[tyckspoon]

DMG:
If you'd like, I'll post up all the rules for making custom magic items from MIC. Trust me, My math is twinky as hell, but RAW as all outdoors.

Those rules are for how to go about combining printed and pre-priced properties onto a single item, and do not deal with custom items at all in the sense of making up new abilities or changing the way the item works (via activation method or use restrictions or whatever.) For that, you're still dealing with the DMG, which goes out of its way to make it clear that the 'rules' there absolutely require DM approval and intervention to put into play.


If I get a slow DM, maybe I'll add splitting. (the errata fixed splitting on throwing things.) Still, disgusting. Anything that adds to the base damage just makes it more disgusting.


AFAIK Champions of Ruin does not have errata and the Splitting property was not reprinted or updated elsewhere. Where'd you find a source that says you can use it for thrown weapons?

[eggynack]

DMG:



If you'd like, I'll post up all the rules for making custom magic items from MIC. Trust me, My math is twinky as hell, but RAW as all outdoors.

See, here's the problem... Exceptions.

Everytime you give a race/class/PrC/whatever an exception to the normal rules, there is room for abuse. For example, The three magic items I've listed that all add WSAs to your unarmed attack. In theory, If I also add Greater Magic Fang and take 10 levels of Kensi, I could have a total of +43 in Weapon Enhancement Bonus and Weapon Special Abilities on my fists. What I have presented here is only the most Cost to Benefit ratio combination I could find in ten minutes. Give me a few days, I'll make your head explode.

Amulet of Natural Weapons specifically states you can make your Unarmed Attacks Throwing and Returning (Although I prefer teleporting. Same cost and it follows me to any square I move to.) I mean, I do my Manyfang trick, add Throwing and teleporting, then make it exit wound. Now I punch through everyone in a line for 30 feet at an average of 80 hp each. If I get a slow DM, maybe I'll add splitting. (the errata fixed splitting on throwing things.) Still, disgusting. Anything that adds to the base damage just makes it more disgusting.

Now, it has to add to the base damage or the multiplier doesn't work. But here's another little rules abuse.

Flaming adds 1d6 fire damage, so that wouldn't add to the x4 multiplier of manyfang. HOWEVER, Merciful makes ALL damage the weapon does Nonlethal. So, my 1d6 fire damage is no longer 1d6, but 1d6 nonlethal, so it adds to my base damage and is subject to multiplier.

True, not so useful against those immune to nonlethal, but for most living targets, awful. Just plain awful.

Of course this works because WotC took pity on monks and made multiple ways that WSAs could be added to your unarmed strike. They shouldn't stack by any SANE DM's, but when has WotC ever took the time to check to see if something could be abused?
Well, I definitely have to agree that wealth by level abuse is a thing of some kind. I still disagree with your assertions about cost reductions methods for a number of reasons. First, those are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Guideline based cost reduction is therefore a thing that should likely be outside of the scope of this analysis. Second, those guidelines are for the creation of magic items that don't already exist. The items you created do already exist, and I don't see why any sane DM would let you create items that were virtually identical to existing items, except cheaper. Third, at least for items like the many fang dagger which is said to always be crafted in roughly the same way, it makes no sense for that item to exist in a ridiculously inexpensive other form.

Basically, what I'm asserting isn't so much a DM that's sane, so much as one who's not insane. I think what we're trying to evaluate is how monks tend to actually play with practical optimization, rather than how they could play with theoretical optimization. I might be wrong, but that's what I've been trying to do. I have no doubt that my head could explode at certain boundaries of wealth by level abuse, but it just feels vaguely non-indicative. At some point, you have to ask yourself why you're doing all of this when you could be gaining infinite wishes and ruling the world. Even with all of the optimization you've presented, your monk is still hanging out in the lower tiers. I'm pretty sure that characters in tier 4 are just kinda assumed to be capable of hitting any given guy to death in one round without much effort, and do so without serpent kingdoms stuff. Seriously, that's like the third crazy thing I've seen come from that book.

[eggynack]

I'm going to have to think a bit about how to make it obvious whether tripping is viable or not. There's two different kinds of attacks here, both of which are relevant. The first is at 2d4+6, and happens at a trip mod of +8. The second is at 2d4+9 and happens at a trip mod of +10. The trip mods don't actually matter, because the relevant thing is the relative trip mods, but I thought I'd stick it down here. There are also sets of numbers here. The first is the amount of damage that our guy deals through tripping, and the second is the amount that the opponent deals through tripping. Our number looks something like, (trip%*avg damage*hit chance*2). The opponents number looks something like (trip%^2 *avg damage*hit chance). That looks like a pretty fast way to run a comparison, and I think the numbers check out.

Edit: Crap. The numbers are off. The attack after the improved trip should have a +4 to hit which doesn't show up on the AoO. It's purely beneficial for the barbarian, but still. As I noted earlier, there's also a degree of damage prevention from a successful trip that I didn't take into account. In any case, the barbarian's damage equation should probably look more like (Trip%*( avg damage(hit chance+.2)+avg damage(hit chance)). That looks about right, though it might still be off in places.

[137beth]

Just curious, why 32 point-buy? If this thread is going by RAW, then it should probably be 25 point-buy. Of course, this hits MAD classes more than SAD classes, so is the 32 point-buy just to give monks a better chance?

[eggynack]

Just curious, why 32 point-buy? If this thread is going by RAW, then it should probably be 25 point-buy. Of course, this hits MAD classes more than SAD classes, so is the 32 point-buy just to give monks a better chance?
I dunno. The OP wasn't saying, so I just took a random guess. I didn't really have any intent behind it. I suppose we could always run it a bit differently, but it shouldn't make the biggest difference in the world.

Edit: I think that the edited barbarian numbers would look like 18 strength, 12 dex, and 13 con. He boosts the con to 14 at level 4, and then just strength after that.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Scenario 2?

Indisputably Barbarian at all levels except 1. Why? Because it's the only class of the three that can be built to only take Non-Lethal damage at ECL2.

Method:

(Cheese warning:)

For this we need the following books:

PHB, Savage Species, MMIII, Frostburn and Sandstorm.

First off, we get ourselves a lowly Human Barbarian with the feats Frozen Beserker (Frostburn) and Blazing Beserker (Sandstorm). Then, we apply the Symbiote Template (Savage Species) with the Dread Blossom Swarm (MMIII) acting as a guest.

Now, the Dread Blossom Swarm has Regeneration 5/Fire and Cold. Frozen/Blazing Beserker gives you the Cold/Fire subtypes while Raging. Put the two together, and what do you get?

Something literally unkillable by literally anything other than a Spellcaster with the Searing Spell metamagic feat, and even that's debatable (Its Frostburn counterpart has a clause that pertains to creatures with the Cold Subtype.), or Trollbane. And even with Trollbane, you only suffer half damage.

[Mato]

Just curious, why 32 point-buy? If this thread is going by RAW, then it should probably be 25 point-buy. Of course, this hits MAD classes more than SAD classes, so is the 32 point-buy just to give monks a better chance?Sort of? In all examples I care to use the Monk goes Invisible Fist/Dark Moon. And if the Monk hits 16 Wisdom (for continuous blink) after items everything he could want is covered. So like the Barb additional points are nice but not overtly needed.

But if you want to build a Monk using less than his optimal ACFs, ACFs meant to fix the Monk at that, you would need more points. Simply for AC reasons which again become more redundant later on so it's significance is in low level play.

Also on Trippage, Passive Way grants Improved Trip and a secondary +4 Bonus if the opponent is Flat-Footed (see invisible fist) at the 6th level, something the Barb won't compare with until Mighty Rage at level 18. Battle Jump also has a secondary feature of providing an effective Size increase while charging. It's actually where the Monk example I used was intended to go; obtaining Knock-Down at the 6th level rather than Shock Trooper. The Monk makes an attack at triple damage and Trips as a free action with an additional +12 bonus. It's yet another reason why I think 6th level, and not 9th, is the turning point for Monks.

[Rainbownaga]

Maybe I missed something, but it looks like you are comparing a barbarian using whirling frenzy against a monk that chooses to neither use stunning fist nor flurry.

[eggynack]

Maybe I missed something, but it looks like you are comparing a barbarian using whirling frenzy against a monk that chooses to neither use stunning fist nor flurry.
Not really. I'm just building a barbarian under the theoretical assumption that whatever I build will be to the best of my abilities. Other people are building monks, and I assume that they're also doing so to the best of their abilities. Therefore, I'm not comparing a barbarian using whirling frenzy against a monk who doesn't use stunning fist or flurry. I'm building a barbarian, and someone else is building a monk, and the comparison makes itself. You're free to take a swing at building a monk if you want.

[limejuicepowder]

Maybe I missed something, but it looks like you are comparing a barbarian using whirling frenzy against a monk that chooses to neither use stunning fist nor flurry.

I'm the only one who actually ran the numbers for the monk, and yes the monk used no tactics except full attacks. He lost, horribly, against a dretch. He did use flurry however, and it reduced the time it would take to kill the dretch to 13 rounds - a full minute after the dretch would drop him. Stunning fist in this case would serve almost no purpose; even if both attempts succeeded (unlikely, as the dretch has a +5 fort save), that would only get the monk 2 of the 11 rounds he needs to kill the dretch.

The monk would be slightly better off buying a MW monk weapon, as the damage to the same as his fists at this point and the extra +1 to hit helps a bit. He's still very far behind; the DR is just devastating.

Note too the dretch's SLA, especially summoning another dretch. Since the monk has no way to prevent him from at least trying, and 2 dretch will shred him with virtually no chance of losing, the dretch basically automatically gets 35% of the winner's pie chart (his chance of a successful summoning). The monk has to battle to get that other 65%, and I can't think of a good way for him to do it.

[eggynack]

Scenario 2?

Indisputably Barbarian at all levels except 1. Why? Because it's the only class of the three that can be built to only take Non-Lethal damage at ECL2.

Method:

(Cheese warning:)

For this we need the following books:

PHB, Savage Species, MMIII, Frostburn and Sandstorm.

First off, we get ourselves a lowly Human Barbarian with the feats Frozen Beserker (Frostburn) and Blazing Beserker (Sandstorm). Then, we apply the Symbiote Template (Savage Species) with the Dread Blossom Swarm (MMIII) acting as a guest.

Now, the Dread Blossom Swarm has Regeneration 5/Fire and Cold. Frozen/Blazing Beserker gives you the Cold/Fire subtypes while Raging. Put the two together, and what do you get?

Something literally unkillable by literally anything other than a Spellcaster with the Searing Spell metamagic feat, and even that's debatable (Its Frostburn counterpart has a clause that pertains to creatures with the Cold Subtype.), or Trollbane. And even with Trollbane, you only suffer half damage.

I'd say that this seems far too cheesy for anything ever, but it honestly sounds less cheese based than the wealth by level abuse to me. This is a big part of the reason that I've mostly been sticking to the first scenario. When you include all the books, there's almost certainly going to be something that's just crazy theoretical optimization stuff. If there's a limited amount of books, then you can say, "There's a line, and it's right there in brilliant hues." When you have all the books, then you have to evaluate the degree to which sometihng is TO on a case by case basis, and it's subjective and annoying. I mean, I gave my opinion above, but what's more cheesy? Making all of your items lawful good only for cost reduction purposes, and using other ridiculous item combos, or using a crazy template in combination with feats in order to gain infinite damage defenses? It's just a bad game to play all around.

[Mato]

Maybe I missed something, but it looks like you are comparing a barbarian using whirling frenzy against a monk that chooses to neither use stunning fist nor flurry.I for one think Stunning Fist sucks, the DC is too low to be practicable and it costs too much to keep it relevant.

Also all of my examples have been based on the best of ACFs to each. So really neither Class has any room about the other. :)

[eggynack]

I'm the only one who actually ran the numbers for the monk, and yes the monk used no tactics except full attacks. He lost, horribly, against a dretch. He did use flurry however, and it reduced the time it would take to kill the dretch to 13 rounds - a full minute after the dretch would drop him. Stunning fist in this case would serve almost no purpose; even if both attempts succeeded (unlikely, as the dretch has a +5 fort save), that would only get the monk 2 of the 11 rounds he needs to kill the dretch.

The monk would be slightly better off buying a MW monk weapon, as the damage to the same as his fists at this point and the extra +1 to hit helps a bit. He's still very far behind; the DR is just devastating.

Note too the dretch's SLA, especially summoning another dretch. Since the monk has no way to prevent him from at least trying, and 2 dretch will shred him with virtually no chance of losing, the dretch basically automatically gets 35% of the winner's pie chart (his chance of a successful summoning). The monk has to battle to get that other 65%, and I can't think of a good way for him to do it.

Yeah, damage resistance is tricky for monks. They just can't do much against it, while barbarians just kinda hit over it as a matter of course. I generally just stick core monks into the loser column against them, and also hydras. Hydras just damage and heal way too fast for monks to deal with. Other enemies are also often problematic, but those two are the worst.

[Captnq]

I'm still trying to figure out the point of this thread.

If you want to quibble over details, that's fine, but in general and on average, exceptions win.

If the goal is to figure out if Warrior, Monk, or Barbarian is best, well... in a vanilla contest, Barbarian beats monk, Monk beats warrior. Thread done.


In weird situations, monk starts to pull ahead. For example:

A monk can fight with hands, feet, elbows, knees. They are unarmed strikes, but to be treated as weapons as the player chooses.

So I coat my hands, feet, elbows, and knees with injury poison. Yes, 5% chance of accidentally poisoning myself, but I'll take the chance. If I really want to be on the safe side, 4,000 gp buys me a bracers of striking that give all my unarmed strikes with Head/Feet/Elbows/Knees the Assassination WSA, which allows me to apply poison without the 5% chance of self poisoning, do extra damage when sneak attacking, AND increased the save DC of my Poison. Maybe I'll add toxic, so I can make sure I get to use my poison 16 times during the fight, instead of only 8.

Can't do that without taking one level of monk, friends. Normal Improved unarmed strike only allows you to hit with your hands.

See, Monk is sort of like aquaman. Normally the rest of the superfriends handle the problem, but from time to time, you need someone who can fight naked in a narrow tunnel. A monk is weak in normal vanilla fights, but strong in antimagic fields. Or fighting when everyone's armor has been turned into pink silly string. Or fighting while balancing on a tightrope over a pit of lava.

How often do you fight on a tightrope over a pit of lava? That depends on the DM. Most DMs don't do wacky fights. So, the real answer to, "Who is stronger?" is: Depends on your DM's style and how he likes to run combat and what rule books he'll let your rummage through for rules/equipment/feats/PrCs/Etc...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, I actually ran 3 combats of monk vs dog. The (poorly written) logs:

Monk: 11 hp, 15/15 AC.
Dog: 13 hp, 16/12 AC.

Round 1:

Monk wins initiative. Closes to melee, attempts grapple. 15 on touch, success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 18 Dog: 12
Monk deals 5.
Dog's turn. Tries to escape grapple.
Monk: 19 Dog: 9
Fails.
Monk goes for another damage attempt.
Monk: 25 Dog: 22
Monk deals 9. Dog is down.

The monk rolled retardedly well for that entire thing, so this really shows nothing.

Round 2:

Initiative:
Monk: 24 Dog: 5
Monk closes to melee, attempts grapple: 12 on touch, success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 17. Dog: 22.
Dog resists grapple.
Dog attempts bite: 14. Miss
Monk attempts grapple: 14 on touch, success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 8. Dog: 6.
Monk deals 4.
Dog attempts to escape grapple:
Monk: 10 Dog: 16.
Dog escapes.
Monk attempts grapple: 18 on touch, success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 25. Dog: 16.
Monk deals 4.
Dog attempts to escape grapple:
Monk: 10 Dog: 20
Dog escapes.
Monk attempts grapple: 19 on touch, success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 20. Dog: 19.
Monk deals 4.
Dog attempts to escape grapple:
Monk: 18. Dog: 13.
Dog fails to escape.
Monk attempts grapple for more damage:
Monk 17. Dog: 15.
Monk deals 5. Dog goes down.

That is... insanely tedious. The fact that the monk can initiate a grapple and do damage at the same help is help quite a bit.
Even when the dog escapes it was burnt its attack for the turn so it is at a disadvantage.

Round 3:

Initiative rolls:
Monk: 24 Dog: 22.

Monk attempts grapple: 4 on touch, misses.
Dog attempts a bite: 18, hits.
7 damage.
Monk attempts grapple: 14 on touch, success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 21. Dog: 16.
Monk deals 5.
Dog attempts to escape.
Monk: 8. Dog: 10. Success.
Monk attempts grapple: 23 (nat 20), success.
Grapple rolls:
Monk: 26. Dog: 6.
Monk deals 6.
Dog attempts to escape grapple.
Monk: 8. Dog 9. Success.
Monk attempts grapple: 8 on touch. Misses.
Dog attempts attack: 12. Misses.
Monk attempts grapple: 22 on touch, success.
Monk: 20. Dog 18. Success.
Monk deals 7 on grapple, dog goes down.

This one was much closer and far more realistic than one. Still, the extra action caused by the dog being forced to do nothing after backing out of the grapple saved the monk's behind.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why is dog attempting to escape grapple rather than attacking with natural weapons against a Monk who is denied his dex and wisdom to AC?

[eggynack]

Why is dog attempting to escape grapple rather than attacking with natural weapons against a Monk who is denied his dex and wisdom to AC?
Doesn't he only lose his dex bonus to AC against enemies who aren't in the grapple? I think the monk would keep his regular AC.

Edit: Some factors are missing though. First of all, he should get a free trip on the bites where he hits. Second, during the third fight, the monk was put to 4 HP before the grapple. I think the monk dies in like 3 attacks to that situation, so just attacking might be viable.

[Lans]

Edit: Actually, I think I changed my mind on the item thing. Full plate gets two extra AC, and is pretty much the end of my armor buying days. It reduces my speed by 10 feet, but I can't really care that much. two AC just seems better than one damage in general. I am thus left with 591 GP.


Your not proficient with full plate are you? Its going to knock your initiative and attack bonus down by 5 if your not proficient

[eggynack]

Your not proficient with full plate are you? Its going to knock your initiative and attack bonus down by 5 if your not proficient
Huh. I'm officially running in dumb mode today. Back to the +1 guisarme then. It's definitely something he's doing at some point, so now's as good a time as ever.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Doesn't he only lose his dex bonus to AC against enemies who aren't in the grapple? I think the monk would keep his regular AC.

I did totally forget the trip; it is put in an odd spot so I did not see it in the block. Also he not only keeps his Dex bonus against enemies in the grapple, but the dog would need to win a grapple check to be allowed to hit at -4 (net -1). We had discussed this before and you said that the optimal move for the dog would be to escape. I will run a quick one with the dog actively attacking.

Edit:
Initiative:
Monk: 12 Dog: 19.
Dog closes to melee and attacks: 8 to hit, misses.
Monk attempts grapple: 13 to hit, success.
Monk: 27. Dog: 12.
Monk deals 9.
Dog attempts to attack:
Monk: 20. Dog 12.
Fails.
Monk attempts to damage:
Monk: 17. Dog 8.
Dog takes 6, goes down.

With the 4 point gap between their grapples, the odds of the dog hitting in the grapple are abysmal due to the extra rolls that go into hitting him.

Initative:
Monk: 10 Dog: 21
Dog closes to melee and attacks: 21 to hit, success.
7 damage to the monk.
Free trip:
Monk: 8. Dog: 13. Monk goes down.
Monk attempts a grapple (-1 to hit): 2, misses.
Dog goes to hit: 8, misses.
Monk attempts a grapple (-1 to hit): 13, hits.
Monk: 19. Dog: 11.
Monk deals 5.
Dog goes to hit the monk:
Monk: 25. Dog: 21.
Fails.
Monk grapples the dog:
Monk: 24. Dog: 10.
5 damage to the dog.
Dog attempts to attack the monk:
Monk: 24. Dog: 11.
Fails.
Monk grapples the dog:
Monk: 16. Dog: 16. Monk wins ties due to higher grapple modifier.
Monk deals 9, dog goes down.

[eggynack]

I did totally forget the trip; it is put in an odd spot so I did not see it in the block. Also he not only keeps his Dex bonus against enemies in the grapple, but the dog would need to win a grapple check to be allowed to hit at -4 (net -1). We had discussed this before and you said that the optimal move for the dog would be to escape. I will run a quick one with the dog actively attacking.
I was unaware that the attacks also required a grapple check. In that case, he probably does continue to attempt to break from the grapple regardless of prior damage levels. Average damage is just too low. Anyway, I'm about ready to concede the monk V riding dog fight to the monk, at the very least so that we can move on from this dreadful mechanic. Grappling is just the worst.

[137beth]

I for one think Stunning Fist sucks, the DC is too low to be practicable and it costs too much to keep it relevant.

Also all of my examples have been based on the best of ACFs to each. So really neither Class has any room about the other. :)

You have not given any examples. You have not provided any monk builds or shown how they beat level-appropriate threats. You've just repeated your assertions that monks win and whined that other people don't already agree with you.


I'm still trying to figure out the point of this thread.

If you want to quibble over details, that's fine, but in general and on average, exceptions win.

If the goal is to figure out if Warrior, Monk, or Barbarian is best, well... in a vanilla contest, Barbarian beats monk, Monk beats warrior. Thread done.


In weird situations, monk starts to pull ahead. For example:

Well yea, but some people weren't sure about it, so this thread is to run some actual data to see who wins.

EDIT:

Half-Orc Warrior 2,
Ability scores: 20,8,18,6,8,6
HP: 20.5 average (8+4.5 from HD, +8 from constitution)
Speed: 20
AC: 17 (+8 from full plate, -1 from dexterity)
Initiative: +3 (4 from improved initiative feat, -1 from dex)
Not enough gold for good magic items, but enough to afford a masterwork greataxe (1d12 damage, x3 crit, +1 to attack)
Attack roll (with axe): +8 (+2 BAB, +5 from str, +1 from masterwork)
Damage roll: 1d12+6
Saves: Fortitude +7 (+3 base, +4 con) Reflex: -1 (dex), will: -1

Let's put him up against a CR 2 Large Monstrous Spider

It has initiative +3, so the warrior goes first 50% of the time. The warrior hits its AC of 14 on a 6 (75% of the time) for an average of 12.5 damage per hit, plus an additional 25 damage on a critical hit. This gives an average damage per round of .75*12.5+(.05*.75*25)=10.3. It will take an average of 2.133 rounds to kill the spider.

If we ignore the spider's movement advantage (it is faster than the warrior and can climb, which may or may not be an advantage, depending on terrain), its bite hits on a 13 or higher, and deals 7.5 damage per hit (for a total of 3.15 damage per round, including the extra from critical hits). If we ignore poison, it will take the spider a whopping 6.5 rounds to kill the warrior. The poison could be a game changer, as it does strength damage, but it takes effect only 10% of the time (40% chance to hit, and a 75% chance for the warrior to make his save). All in all, it looks pretty good for the warrior. Even if the spider gets lucky and poisons on the first round, that's only d6 str damage--the warrior still has enough str to finish the fight pretty fast.


EDIT: Okay, now let's place this warrior against a CR 2 ape.
Now, the warrior goes first 55% of the time.
It still has AC 14, so we are still doing 10.3 damage per round (about 2.8 rounds to win).
The ape gets three attacks per round, 2 claws (+7 to hit, 1d6+5 damage, so an average of 4.9 damage each), and one bite (+2 to hit, 1d6+2 damage, so 1.73 damage per round). In total, it will take the ape roughly 1.78 full attacks to kill the warrior. If the warrior wins initiative, it is pretty much even. The other 45% of the time, the ape has a near-certain win. So the warrior wins ROUGHLY 27.5% of the time. Not so good.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think if you are in a grapple, you can just use your natural weapons without a grapple check... right? It's at a -4, but you don't have to make a grapple check to make an attack...?

[Oscredwin]

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.



The rules are confusing, a lot of the actions you can take in a grapple explicitly require a grapple check, and a lot of them explicitly don't.

[eggynack]

I think if you are in a grapple, you can just use your natural weapons without a grapple check... right? It's at a -4, but you don't have to make a grapple check to make an attack...?
You might be right. When I agreed with his assertion, it was because some of the things you can do state that they don't need a grapple check, and the attack function doesn't have that comment. I'm rethinking that though, because things that cause a grapple check have that check actually listed. Thus, I fall back on my assertion that the dog's likelihood of attacking in a grapple is dependent on the monk's damage prior to the grapple. With the monk at 4, I think that the dog gets the kill before the monk does.

[Lans]

AC: 17 (+8 from full plate, -1 from dexterity)
You don't get enough gold for full plate at second level

Edit-Unless your crafting and getting it for a third the cost.

[eggynack]

Welp, I'm bored again. Thus, I'm going to have the level three barbarian run against the least complicated CR 3 monsters, which happens to be the ogre. It's a fighty guy, except he doesn't have stupid improved grapple, which I've grown to loathe over time. The ogre has a +9 trip mod, and the barbarian has +8 at first, and a +10 later. The barbarian also doesn't get an AoO on the first round, because of the reach. So, let us dive right in.

Round one: The ogre runs to 10 feet away, and takes a swing with his club. The barbarian has an AC of 17 still, so that's a 40% chance of hitting for 16 damage. At this point, it's becoming clear that I shouldn't be running this combat, but I'll proceed nevertheless. He deals 6.4 damage on this attack, putting the barbarian at 27.6 HP.

Now, for the far more complicated barbarian attack. The barbarian enters a rage, and is thus hitting for +8/+8 for 2d4+10 damage. That comes out to 19.5 damage per round. I think that the barbarian just wins this one, like before it even gets down to tripping and stuff. I think he might win this one at level two. The ogre just seems under-CR'd to me. I should find something else.

[137beth]

You don't get enough gold for full plate at second level

Edit-Unless your crafting and getting it for a third the cost.

Oops! Well, in that case, get a half-plate (which you CAN afford), and lower the AC to 16. It doesn't have a significant effect on either of the two fights.

[eggynack]

Oops! Well, in that case, get a half-plate (which you CAN afford), and lower the AC to 16. It doesn't have a significant effect on either of the two fights.
What's with the great axe by the by? Great swords seem better in just about every way. They deal 7 damage on a hit, rather than 6.5, and if the comparative critical stuff has any effect, it probably swings the fight towards the sword.

[Mato]

{Scrubbed}

[137beth]

{Scrubbed}

[eggynack]

Ya know, what I'm really wondering now is what the range of CR's my barbarian can kill at various levels is. Like, I'm pretty sure that the barbarian can kill that ogre at level 2, and he could kill the heavy warhorse at level one. He just got access to the whole tripping thing, so he could probably kill some decently tough enemies of CR 4, if they were the right enemies. He probably can't kill everything, but I wonder how his results against CR 4 enemies looks against the level 3 monk's statistics against CR 3 enemies. I remember the not quite core monk often failing against even CR'd enemies in the last thread, though my statistics weren't as good then.

[TuggyNE]

Ya know, what I'm really wondering now is what the range of CR's my barbarian can kill at various levels is. Like, I'm pretty sure that the barbarian can kill that ogre at level 2, and he could kill the heavy warhorse at level one. He just got access to the whole tripping thing, so he could probably kill some decently tough enemies of CR 4, if they were the right enemies. He probably can't kill everything, but I wonder how his results against CR 4 enemies looks against the level 3 monk's statistics against CR 3 enemies. I remember the not quite core monk often failing against even CR'd enemies in the last thread, though my statistics weren't as good then.

Give it a shot and see; generally speaking, decent optimization usually produces characters that are solo-capable of reliably beating opponents one or more CRs above their level. (Really high PO may get to around +5 or so; after that it's mostly TO.)

[eggynack]

Give it a shot and see; generally speaking, decent optimization usually produces characters that are solo-capable of reliably beating opponents one or more CRs above their level. (Really high PO may get to around +5 or so; after that it's mostly TO.)
The real problem is that I've been seeing more and more enemies that I have no idea what to do with. Like, I was started running a lion against the barbarian, with the irony of the barbarian being attacked by a crazy pouncing guy and everything, and then I noticed that the lion has improved grab. I just gave up and deleted the whole thing rather than try to figure that mess out again. If the lion has some kind of high chance of killing the barbarian, I have absolutely no idea and I'll likely never know.

There's other enemies like that too. Enemies with SLA's, or odd movement abilities. I think the barbarian can actually handle flying characters without being able to fly, as long as they need to approach him to kill him. Fly-by tactics don't work as well when you have combat reflexes and AoO's. I only ever managed to get through the dretch fight because I argued that the SLA's were ineffective in general, and that won't be true in the future. It's all very tricky. For now, I mostly just look around for monsters who are easy to figure out, but those results might favor the barbarian. Still, if it favors the barbarian, it probably favors the monk too. I can take some solace in that.

[eggynack]

Ooh, hound archons look doable, and they're only the second guy I looked at. They're completely unbeatable by that core monk, probably even if he's a level over the archon, so that's a point in the archon's favor too. Let's run it. I'm going to have the barbarian attack first, because he's a level below and I'm not in the mood to run the "approaching enemy AoO" scenario. The archon's great sword seems just about strictly better than his bite/slam, so that's what I'm going to use for this.

The barbarian powers rages up, runs in, and attacks. His attack is at +8/+8, and is for 2d4+10 damage. Conveniently enough, this always beats DR, and thus does 5 damage per hit, but inconveniently enough, it never triggers a trip off of knockdown. I may consider running a combat in which the barbarian opens with an improved trip rather than a regular hit if this goes badly. The barbarian hits 50% of the time, so he deals 5 damage. It takes him seven rounds to kill the archon in this manner.

On the archon's turn, he uses hit +8/+3/+3 iteratives. He hits 60% of the time on the +8, and thus deals 6 damage on that hit. The +3's hit 35% of the time, and do 3.5 and 1.925 damage respectively. That's 11.425 damage on a full attack, which kills him in about 3 rounds. That's all before the aura. It seems that damage resistance that's that high is too much for the barbarian too. He might be able to manage it next level, particularly due to wealth by level, but he can't manage it here. I'm going to look for something that doesn't have DR 10

[limejuicepowder]

Ooh, hound archons look doable, and they're only the second guy I looked at. They're completely unbeatable by that core monk, probably even if he's a level over the archon, so that's a point in the archon's favor too. Let's run it. I'm going to have the barbarian attack first, because he's a level below and I'm not in the mood to run the "approaching enemy AoO" scenario. The archon's great sword seems just about strictly better than his bite/slam, so that's what I'm going to use for this.

The barbarian powers rages up, runs in, and attacks. His attack is at +8/+8, and is for 2d4+10 damage. Conveniently enough, this always beats DR, and thus does 5 damage per hit, but inconveniently enough, it never triggers a trip off of knockdown. I may consider running a combat in which the barbarian opens with an improved trip rather than a regular hit if this goes badly. The barbarian hits 50% of the time, so he deals 5 damage. It takes him seven rounds to kill the archon in this manner.

On the archon's turn, he uses hit +8/+3/+3 iteratives. He hits 60% of the time on the +8, and thus deals 6 damage on that hit. The +3's hit 35% of the time, and do 3.5 and 1.925 damage respectively. That's 11.425 damage on a full attack, which kills him in about 3 rounds. That's all before the aura. It seems that damage resistance that's that high is too much for the barbarian too. He might be able to manage it next level, particularly due to wealth by level, but he can't manage it here. I'm going to look for something that doesn't have DR 10

As you wrote it, the barb needs 7 rounds to win and the archon needs 3. That means the barb needs to make up 5 rounds to win - and I think he has a shot at it. The archon's trip defense is only +2 to the barb's +8, giving the barb a pretty good chance of success - as well as a free attack with a better chance to hit. Additionally, the chance the hound archon will counter-trip is pretty low. Using reach and trip, the barb should have a much better chance.

[Mato]

Same continued Monk build. Str18/Wis16/Con14/Rest8s, Passive Way/Invisible Fist/Holy Strike, Battle Jump & Skill Focus(bluff), Balance/Jump/UMD. No longer naked through, Brute Gauntlets (300), Steadfast Boots (1,400), +1 Amulet of Natural Weapons (2,900), 800gp left over to try boosting his Save against the Aura using some cheap MiC item or something. I honestly can't recall what the Aura is, SRD doesn't say and Eggy ignored it, so I guess it's not a game changer.

Monk: 29.5HP, +8 melee (1d8+4 & +1d6*), AC 13 (touch 13, flat 8).
Hound Archon: 33 HP, +8 melee (2d6+3), AC 19 (touch 10, flat 19), DR 10/evil.

The Fight.
HA goes first (+4 vs -1) and closes the gap between them with a charge using the Greatsword as it's his most powerful option. 85% chance of 10 damage. Monk retaliates with Flurry of Blows and attempts to Trip. 45/45% so he should hit once. He triggers his Brute Gauntlets & 1 charge, +10 vs +2 and is successful. Improved Trip triggers, 65% chance to hit.

A Lawful Good Monk deals 8.5 damage on average (9.5 when using 1 charge from item), this is less than the HA's DR so it is negated. A Lawful Evil Monk bypasses DR and deals an additional +1d6 damage. So the Monk is existing in two states, dealt 0 or 12 damage until Alignment is observed.

Evil
If the Monk hits on the first attack he makes a second attack with an 85% chance of hitting again which can put the AH at 9 HP and Prone. The AoO for standing may kill it. If the Evil Monk instead hits on the second attack then his turn is over. The AH provokes an AoO for standing, 85% chance of 9HP again. On the AH's turn he triggers his Invisibility, the AH has a 25% chance of successfully hitting the Monk with his Greatsword. Next round repeats like the first and solves any bad attack rolls.

Good
The Monk is in some serious trouble, his attacks appear to have no affect on the purple dog thing. Since he cannot retrip on an AoO for standing or break DR the AH stands up and attacks again. 75% chance of 10 damage putting the Monk at 9HP. Monks turn he goes Invisible and flees. Because the AH cannot see the Monk he is denied any AoOs for the movement. Next round the AH wonders what happened but gets the idea the Monk ran for his life. And he did. Up to 160ft away and Invisible until his turn.

The idea is the Good Monk cannot openly fight the AH, and must win using tactical methods. He hides out or moves from cover to cover (both have 40ft for speed) to bide his time until his Invisibility is recharged. He also draws a bag of Marbles. The AH may turn into a Wolf for Scent to track and know which square the Monk is in, however Scent doesn't overcome the Concealment. Plus in another form he loses his +9 Natural Armor Bonus & Greatsword not to mention a Wolf's Bite deals less. So the AH must remain in his normal form or be defeated.

Monk's retry. At 9 HP vs AH's 33 he climbs something or simply Jumps (+17) and charges his opponent in the head, positionally ideal if the Monk end his movement over the AH's head. This allows him to drop the Marbles as a Free Action forcing the AH to make a DC 10 Balanced Check (50% success) and rendering him Flat-Footed (no change in ac). Monk has a 60% chance of dealing 7 damage after DR, a hit forces another Balance check if the AH isn't already prone.

The AH felt that one, but stands up ignoring the AoO's damage and attacks the now-again Invisible Monk. You know what comes next. The Good-Monk has to fight with superior tactics or die a horrible death. This round-by-round repeat comes down to terrain or the 25% chance to hit succeeding which over three more attempts probably does.A very small chance of Good-Aligned Monk winning, Evil eats Chinese food for lunch.

Make of it what you will.

[DeltaEmil]

Against an evil opponent, the hound archon's AC and saving throws is improved thanks to its Magic Circle of Evil.
The Aura of Menace grants a minor debuff to the Hound Archon's enemies in form of a -2 penalty to attacks, AC and saves unless they either succeed on the saving throw, or make a successful attack against the Hound Archon.

That means that the evil monk's to hit bonus of +6 against AC 21 until he manages to hit the Hound Archon for the first time. Then the further attacks of the evil monk are at the +8 bonus against AC 21.

The good monk has a to hit bonus of +6 against AC 19 until he manages to hit the Hound Archon for the first time. Then the further attacks of the good monk are at the +8 bonus against AC 19.

Don't forget that the Hound Archon can teleport at-will as a supernatural ability. If it does get knocked prone, a valid tactic for the Hound Archon is to first teleport to the other side of the world, then stand up, and then teleport back again to rejoin the fight. Perhaps a few hundred meters away from the battle, to first look if the enemy monk is already gone.

[eggynack]

As you wrote it, the barb needs 7 rounds to win and the archon needs 3. That means the barb needs to make up 5 rounds to win - and I think he has a shot at it. The archon's trip defense is only +2 to the barb's +8, giving the barb a pretty good chance of success - as well as a free attack with a better chance to hit. Additionally, the chance the hound archon will counter-trip is pretty low. Using reach and trip, the barb should have a much better chance.
You might have a point on this one. Between the higher chance of hitting after a trip, the high chance of tripping, the low chance of retaliation, and the archon's loss of full attacks, standard tripping might be a viable tactic. I think he'd actually get even more attacks than usual. The barbarian stands 10 feet away, and one of the attacks trips the archon. The barbarian gets a bonus attack off of improved trip. The archon stands up, which gives the barbarian an AoO. I'm not sure if the archon is able to take a 5-foot-step in order to get a standard attack in. If not, then the archon is likely screwed.

[Mato]

Against an evil opponent, the hound archon's AC and saving throws is improved thanks to its Magic Circle of Evil.
The Aura of Menace grants a minor debuff to the Hound Archon's enemies in form of a -2 penalty to attacks, Don't forget that the Hound Archon can teleport at-will as a supernatural ability.Ahh that's what it does, and I did skip over the Magic Circle. So its not a push-over to an Evil Aligned Monk, with an initial -20% to accuracy till first attack. It could cost a round in delay allowing the AH to easily hit again (invisible would be on cooldown during 3rd round) but the Monk can take two blows easy enough.

But Teleport I didn't. The miss chance could be two high and since it consumes a Standard Action to port in, the only way the AH could use it effectively would be like the Monk and to play cat & mouse. And I can't imagine where to start on truly running those odds. I do know that the Monk's Invisibility can be used as an Immediate action in response to any action and triggers before said action. That includes the AH's moving around a corner so the Monk would know where the AH is but not vice versa. Even so, I'd still call it a very low chance for the Monk. Simply because he needs to hit multiple times while at that point the AH only needs once.

Oops, hit post instead of preview when the phone rang. Gotta love posting at work :p

[eggynack]

I honestly can't recall what the Aura is, SRD doesn't say and Eggy ignored it, so I guess it's not a game changer.

It makes a difference. I just tend to evaluate from the initial perspective of things going in favor of the fight's underdog. The barbarian lost the fight assuming the aura failed, so I just stopped there. Had the barbarian won, I would have done a second evaluation taking into account the odds that the aura would have made a difference. If you look at some of the past fights I tend to give enemies the initiative which gives them a slight edge. I also tend to run the fights without the barbarian's combat maneuvers, because if he doesn't need them he doesn't need them. As a side note, I'm probably going to take a quick break from hound archons to look at dire boars. they basically just deal and take lots of damage, so it should serve as a nice baseline for future fights.

[Mato]

That is technically a more suitable monster. A Hound Archon has Supernatural and Magical traits which makes them harder to deal with than a standard mundane.

Same Monk

Monk: 29.5HP, +8 melee (1d8+4 & +1d6), AC 13 (touch 13, flat 8).
Dire Bear: 52HP, +12 melee (1d8+12), AC 15 (touch 9, flat 15).

Either one can go first (-1 vs +0) and whomever wins Initiative gets the first Charge.

Monk Goes First
Monk charges, 65% & 20.5, Bear retaliates with 90% & 16.5. Round 2, the Monk goes Invisible for 85/85% & 12 vs Bear 45% & 16.5 so hopefully the Bear misses once. Round 3, the Monk's turn, 65/65% & 12 should finished the Bear off. If the charge hits only three of those other attacks need to make contact and they come out exactly at 300%. Also on that 85/85% routine he can consume his daily charges off his item for +4 per hit to damage which means combat is over at round 2.

Bear goes First
Bear has 95% & 16.5. Monk attempts to Trip, 95/95%, Monk has +8 or +12 if using his Magic Item, Bear has +12 or +8 if standing on it's hind legs. On fail, the Steadfast Boots award an additional +4 to avoid being Tripped in return. On success Improved Trip awards a bonus Attack, 85% & 12 (or 16). If the Monk successfully Trips on first attempt he attacks again, 85% & 12 (or 16). Round 2, The Bear stands provoking an AoO, 85% & 12 (or 16) and attacks the now Invisible Monk, 45% & 16.5. Hopefully he misses or the Monk dies. The Bear is someone between 28 HP (2hits) and 4HP (3 hits & item). If the Bear shows signs of damage the Monk simply Flurrys. 65/65% & 12. Otherwise he needs to Trip again on the first attempt at his +8 Bonus or face certain death.

Actually had to break out the 300gp Magic Item for this one and it's still tough.

[eggynack]

I'ma do the dire boar vs. level 3 core barbarian fight now. As per the last fight, I'm going to give the barbarian the first action. I'm also going to run it initially without tripping, and then run some tripping calculations if the barbarian loses.

Round 1: The barbarian rages, runs in, and stabs the boar at +8/+8 for 2d4+10 damage. This deals 21 damage, putting the boar to 31 HP.

The boar does his +12 attack for 1d8+12. This deals 13.2, putting the barbarian to 20.8 HP.

In the subsequent rounds, the barbarian puts the boar to 10, the boar puts the barbarian to 7.6, and the barbarian puts the boar to -11, which kills the boar through his ferocity. Thus, the barbarian wins the fight if he wins initiative, and if he doesn't use tripping. After that, I suppose the test should be the boar winning initiative, against the barbarian who takes advantage of tripping. The boar has two points of trip over the barbarian, but I think that the barbarian still gets the tripvantage through improved trip. I'll probably look at it at some point.

Edit: I just thought about it, and I think that trip is definitely beneficial to the barbarian's chances. Two attacks by the barbarian clearly do more damage than one attack by the boar, so that part of the equation is in the barbarian's favor. I think that the barbarian is also more likely to get those attacks as a result of tripping, because the barbarian's chances are 42.5% to get start attempting the trip based attacks, and the boar's chances are 33.0625% to start his. The whole thing seems highly in the barbarian's favor.

Double edit: Crap, I forgot that the odds are tilted more by the boar's four-leggedness. The boar's chances to win his trip attempt are still at 57.5%, but the other attempt is 10% more likely to succeed. The barbarian now has a 32.5% chance of tripping, and the boar has a 38.81% chance of tripping. The barbarian might still have the edge, because his attacks generally do more damage, and both the improved trip attack and the second iterative if the first iterative is the tripping one, are against a prone opponent.

Triple edit: As is the boar's regular attack if he trips the barbarian. It's just not a good situation for tripping, I think.

[Lans]

Current gauntlet
Current monsters being used
level 1 riding dog, warhorse light
2 dretch, warhorse heavy, large monstrous spider
3 ogre
4 hound archron, dire boar
5

[eggynack]

Current gauntlet
Current monsters being used
level 1 riding dog, warhorse light
2 dretch, warhorse heavy, large monstrous spider
3 ogre
4 hound archron, dire boar
5
Ooh, that makes it all sound so official. Out of those, I think I'm still missing the barbarian vs. spider fight. I should probably run a full hound archon vs. 4th level barbarian, and maybe a hound archon vs. 3rd level barbarian fight where I take tripping tactics into account. I'm pretty sure that if a 3rd level fight vs. a dire boar results in a split across initiative, then a 4th level fight is a straight win for the barbarian. Probably not worth running.

Anyway, I'm going to run a quick fight against the giant monstrous spider. I'm going to run it with the poison, but I'm not sure how the webbing effects the combat yet. The poison deals (hit percentage*save failure chance*poison quantity) strength damage per hit. I'm giving the spider the initiative, so that's one attack against the lowered AC. With his heretofore unmentioned +6 fort save, the barbarian takes .42 strength damage in the first round, and .315 damage in subsequent rounds. Really, I dunno if I should care. Like, I think the spider just dies before the poison does anything.


round one: The spider skitters along, and bites the barbarian for 3 damage. This leaves him at 21 HP.

The barbarian activates frenzy, and doublestabs the spider for 19.6 damage. Now, the spider is at 2.4 HP.

Round two: The spider, seeing the futility of his efforts at killing the barbarian, takes a bite out of himself for 4.125 damage, killing the spider.

The barbarian looks on while this tragedy takes place, and then leaves. He really just doesn't know how to feel about spider suicide, especially when he was about to kill the spider. The barbarian is conflicted.

[Lans]

@eggy have you used PA at all?

[137beth]

For the large spider, if it doesn't get to use the web, it loses pretty bad to the warrior and barbarian and possibly the monk (haven't checked...)

If it does get to trap someone in its web, it has a better chance of winning. If it has trapped the entrance to wherever the fight takes place, it is a DC 20 spot check to notice, which is tough at level 2. Once the PC gets caught, it is hard to break with damage--it only has 12 hp, but it has DR 5. It has DC 17 strength check to break, so the barbarian and warrior both have a slightly better chance of breaking than the monk, but likely not without taking an additional couple hits. But the spider needs a long time to kill either, so I don't think it makes much difference.

I'm getting the sense that the large monstrous spider is a better challenge in a group of other monsters--someone will likely get stuck in its trap while the other monsters pile on damage, then the spider can run (it's fast, and can climb.) Depending on the terrain, it may be able to climb around the melee characters and poison an archer or something (though, admittedly, the poison is rather weak, since it probably won't get someone to 0 strength, it only affects strength-dependent opponents, but they usually have good fortitude saves, a rogue or ranger is probably its ideal target.)

[eggynack]

@eggy have you used PA at all?
Not yet actually. I hadn't really thought about it. I should run that archon through the power attack calculator, and see how it plays out. It seems like a pretty reasonable way to get through the DR.

Edit: Ooh, that definitely helps. I should run this thing all the time, particularly because it means that I don't have to do math nearly as much. I should be doing around 8.47 damage a turn, I think. I ran the weapon damage as a straight 2d4, because the damage resistance cancels out the bonus weapon damage. I don't know if that's getting perfect numbers though, because the thing takes crits into account and only the bonus damage should be multiplied rather than the bonus damage and the crits. Still, that number sounds about right.

Double edit: It also means that the barbarian is likely to one shot the spider rather than two shotting it. The webs probably don't do that much if the barbarian's escape means the spider's certain death.

Triple edit: It doesn't do all that much against the boar. The barbarian was apparently doing 23.1 damage before, and is doing 25.41 damage now. I had the barbarian doing 21 damage, so that's an odd thing. I suspect that the difference might actually come from critical hits. The last time I checked the power level of criticals, I was dealing with monks who deal low damage per hit. The whole *3 multiplier 5% of the time could actually help.

[137beth]

Hmm, I guess I could swap Improved initiative out for power attack on my warrior. Taking a -2 to hit for +4 to damage is the best against both the spider and the ape, improving its damage against the ape from 10.3 per round to 11.8 (including criticals). This lowers the rounds needed to win from 2.8 rounds to 2.5 rounds. It now has a decent chance of winning if it wins initiative, but almost certainly loses if the ape goes first (which is now more likely, since it lost improved initiative). Still probably a win for the ape.

The spider loses by even more, so no change there.

[eggynack]

Seems like a smart enough move. I haven't even been using initiative in these fights. I've just been going off of whatever was most convenient for the given fight. I mean, I guess the way to do it would be figuring out precise win percentage given each character going first, and then multiply it out by the actual likelihood of going first. I have no idea how to calculate precise win percentages though, so it's a bit of a wash. I just know how to calculate which guy is more likely to win.

[Pickford]

The rules are confusing, a lot of the actions you can take in a grapple explicitly require a grapple check, and a lot of them explicitly don't.

Hrm, picture the fight from Saving Private Ryan where the two soldiers are wrestling and the German pulls a knife, slowly, agonizingly sinking it towards the American. That's grappling. Attacking with the light weapon is difficult 'because' it's very likely both characters are struggling for the weapon. (i.e. use opponents weapon)

Grappling to a pin is a great way to stop an enemy from harming an ally (they can't make attacks while pinned); and it's the best logical action for taking down a spellcaster (they rarely have high str so they'll lose the grapple, can't cast any spell with a somatic component, if pinned can't cast any spells with verbal components, have to waste a full-round action pulling any material component, and even if all confluences align must still pass a DC 20 + spell level concentration check (i.e. very unlikely before level 17) or lose the spell.

What do you think makes it confusing? (I honestly don't get that)

[eggynack]

The thing that makes it confusing is that the wording is a bit ambiguous. It doesn't really have much to do with the flavor of it. For example, activating a magic item specifically says that you don't need a grapple check, which implies that everything else requires one, unless it specifically mentions otherwise. However, things like drawing a light weapon specifically state that they require an opposed grapple check, which implies that the default is not requiring a grapple check.

I think that the answer is that you don't need a grapple check to make an attack, as per the "attack your opponent" action. It doesn't state that you need a grapple check, just an attack roll. This wouldn't be definitive, however the "use opponent's weapon" action specifically says that you need both an opposed grapple check and an attack roll. That means that the default is that things do not require a grapple check, but it's specifically stated that you don't need a grapple check when there aren't any rolls to be made, so as to avoid confusion. I therefore conclude that I was correct in saying that the dog would only need to make a single attack roll at -4 to hit the monk while in a grapple.

[Flickerdart]

All you Orcs, don't forget that they are dazzled in daylight. Make sure to budget for sundark goggles!

Let's give Warrior a go. Not a PC taking the Warrior class, but an actual warrior stepping from the pages of a rules-compliant DM's campaign notes.

The DMG lists gear values for 1st level NPCs as 900gp on page 127. With this windfall, our Warrior can afford spiked Banded Mail (250+50gp), masterwork lance (310gp), heavy shield (7gp), a light warhorse (150gp), a longsword (15gp), a military saddle (20gp), a masterwork tool of ride - say, very good reins (50g) and let's say 48gp worth of miscellaneous belongings like saddles and wives and such. A mounted knight sufficiently armed for fighting in the saddle or on foot. To bump the warrior from CR1/2 to CR1, we'll give him the Elite Array (after all, knights don't just hang about being non-elite).

Let's assign his ability scores thusly: 15 Strength, 13 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 8 Intelligence, 12 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma. Let's make him human, too - he thus gets two skills, Ride and Intimidate (+5 and +4 modifiers). His feats will be Mounted Combat and Ride-By Attack, as befits a knight (though not terribly useful, but this is hardly an optimized character anyway).

Thus, Sir Average has 17 AC (19 with his shield out), and 10 HP, and an attack bonus of +4.

Sir Average rides out into battle against a light warhorse whose rider has been killed! Given their identical initiative and Spot modifiers, they see each other and react simultaneously at an average of 110ft apart.

If Sir Average goes first, he charges at the enemy atop his own majestic steed (who is too polite to make attacks and thus won't interfere with the battle). He autosucceeds the check to guide his mount with his knees, but has no time to strap on his shield and merely draws his lance as part of the charge, grabbing it two-handed. His total attack bonus is +6 due to the charge meaning that he lands the hit on an 8+, or 65% of the time. His damage is an average of 15, or 9.75 adjusted (incidentally, 3.35% of the time this is a crit and the battle ends). His Ride-By Attack lets him coast 10 more feet. The foe horse then charges himself, with a +6 attack against 15 AC, or 60% odds, dealing an average of 5.5 damage, or 3.3 adjusted. Sir Average trots his horse away 5 feet, draws his shield, and stabs the enemy horse with the lance with +4 against the horse's reduced AC of 12, again hitting on 8+. His damage is on average 6.5, adjusted to 4.25, total so far 14. The horse steps closer and counter-attacks with a full attack. The hooves each have a 30% chance to hit, and so deal 3.3 damage together, and the bite only hits on a 20, dealing 0.15 damage (this doesn't seem like a lot, but without it, the warrior could take the next 3.3 damage without going down). Sir Average's next attack brings the horse down to 3.75 damage, within sight of victory, but sadly the horse's riposte knocks the knight out.

Today, folks, we learned that knights would be slightly more effective if we fired them all and simply used twice as many horses.

[Lans]

All you Orcs, don't forget that they are dazzled in daylight. Make sure to budget for sundark goggles!


Artic orcs don't have this weakness.

[eggynack]

I'm going to run a quick minotaur vs level 3 barbarian fight, as a part of my "fighting outside your means" series. I'm going to act under the initial assumptions of the barbarian going first, and not using trip. The Minotaur is four legged, and large, so it seems about right. Also, if anyone knows how best to run the barbarian vs. hound archon fight with tripping, aura and power attack included, give it a shot. I've got no idea right now.

Round 1: With all that said, the barbarian will run up to the minotaur, and according to the power attack calculator, hit the minotaur for 27.72 damage on average. Seriously, that thing is frigging great. Running these things has been taking forever. I'm also taking into account critical hits, which happen to do about 2.5 damage. The minotaur is now at 13.8 HP.

The minotaur's great axe attacks do 14.02 damage, and his gore does 1.95 damage. This totals out to 15.97, which leaves him at 18.03 HP.

Subsequent rounds run the same way. The barbarian hits the minotaur down to about -14, and the minotaur is still two hits away from killing the barbarian. It's all pretty clear cut.

However, this is obviously assuming that the barbarian goes first. If the minotaur goes first, then he gets his powerful charge attack in addition to everything else. This could be highly relevant. This attack deals 13.86 damage, which puts the barbarian to 20.14 HP. Unfortunately for the minotaur, both he and the barbarian are two hits from death, and the barbarian gets the first attack. Thus, I conclude that the barbarian wins this fight in all conceivable circumstances due to dealing a crapton of damage. It's a close fight, which could be swung in the minotaur's direction by one round of difference, but the barbarian clearly wins. Huzzah for the barbarian fighting outside his means. I highly doubt that the monk could lay claim to that variety of kill in the same circumstances.

Edit: I accidentally forgot to take into account the minotaur's power attack, but I honestly don't think it made a difference. The calculator says that the great sword attacks shouldn't use power attack. I'm not sure how the gores are counted, but even as two handed weapons power attack only makes a marginal difference on the combat. It's not enough to kill the barbarian any faster.

[Lans]

Could you include your attack bonus, ACs, hp, damage and crit range when you do your posts. Your numbers weren't adding up for me till I remembered to change the crit up a step.

[eggynack]

Sorry 'bout that. I used to put those in more often, cause I'd usually use those numbers as a place holder while I did the math on another page. With this last one especially, I basically just stuck all the numbers into the calculator and ran it through. It's way more convenient than running every attack on an individual basis. Either way, I think the best way to go about it is to put the barbarian's stats here, because it's been getting annoying going back three pages every fight, and put the monster's relevant stats in the posts on an individual basis.

The barbarian has 17 AC normally, and 19 AC in a frenzy. I don't think I ever run the stats such that the barbarian is making an unfrenzied attack, though it might come up. Unfrenzied, the barbarian has +8 with a damage of 2d4+7, and frenzied his attacks are +8/+8 with a damage of 2d4+10. The criticals in both cases are at *3. He has 34 HP, and his trip modifiers are +8 normally, and +10 in a frenzy. That's about it, I think.

Edit: I don't really see much point in putting up monster stats actually. They're pretty easily accessible to everyone, and it's not like my version will likely be much better than the SRD's is. It's probable that it'd be a fair deal worse too. A solid stat block is a good idea though. I should probably just give the guy a sheet at some point. I'd probably need a separate one for each level, because I'd like to be able to go back and stab smaller enemies later.

Important double edit: I just remembered that I have a standard goto barbarian name. Thus the barbarian shall no longer be called "the barbarian" by me. Henceforth he shall be referred to as Strongvolio.

[eggynack]

I'm officially getting kinda bored running the level 3 vs CR 4 fights. I think I'll have him run against the zombie minotaur, and then maybe level him up. He's been doing pretty well at these high CR fights, so he's likely going to thrash any CR 3 fight that we can run with pure statistics. Anyway, I'm going to have the minotaur go first, because I'm going to run that fight anyway if Strongvolio wins, and I won't have to run it the other way if he wins this one.

Round 1: The minotaur charges in and slashes with his mighty greataxe. He deals 15.4 damage, putting Strongvolio to 18.6 HP.

Strongvolio frenzies, and launches into a double attack at his opponent who temporarily has 14 AC due to the charge in the previous round. This attack deals 25.2 damage, getting the minotaur down to 55.8 HP. Things don't look particularly great for Strongvolio, but the charging and lack of frenzy AC caused the minotaur to deal more damage than usual. Either way, it'll be close.

Round 2: The minotaur takes an attack with his great axe, this time at the standard +10 vs. AC 19, compared to +12 vs. AC 17 of last round. This deals 11.55 damage, putting Strongvolio down to 7.05 HP. It looks like Strongvolio is going to lose this one by a bit.

Strongvolio takes another attack, this time against a minotaur without a charging penalty. He deals 21 damage, putting the minotaur at 34.8 HP. The subsequent attack by the minotaur kills Strongvolio.

Now, I'm going to take a quick look at the fight if Strongvolio had won initiative. Strongvolio's attacks each deal 21 damage every round. This is in keeping with his attacks from round 2. The minotaur also attacks as he did in round 2, each turn dealing 11.55 damage. Strongvolio will thus kill the minotaur in 3.857 rounds, and the minotaur will kill Strongvolio in 2.9437 rounds. The zombie minotaur thus kills Strongvolio in all circumstances. This is likely due to the minotaur's ridiculous HP, which cuts down on the effectiveness of the Strongvolio's high damage. I'm pretty sure that Strongvolio will be able to kill the zombie minotaur in the subsequent level, and that the zombie's DR will make the fight quite difficult for the monk at that level.
Anyway, I'm probably going to progress Strongvolio to level 4 in my next big post, and maybe have a rematch with the hound archon. Maybe not though, because I think that fight still needs tripping, and that stuff is tricky to run, what with a critically failed attempt ending Strongvolio's hit parade. The big change is going to be wealth by level, and it's probably going to be the only real change outside of stats. He gets a total of 5,400 GP that level, but I don't really know what to spend it on. He could always +1 his armor or something, but that sounds lametacular. Saving it is another option, and might not be the worst one.

[Lans]

Did you take uncanny dodge with your barbarian? If not your going to be flat footed and lose your dex against the first attack

Wealth wise +1 armor and large shield(that gets dropped) aren't the worst choices.

[eggynack]

Did you take uncanny dodge with your barbarian? If not your going to be flat footed and lose your dex against the first attack

Wealth wise +1 armor and large shield(that gets dropped) aren't the worst choices.
I forgot about that for some reason. He loses either way, but I'm going to have to give this some due consideration. I think that the closest fight was the one against the boar, so I should probably rerun the first round of combat numbers to account for the +2 to hit. The armor is definitely worth consideration, though I don't particularly see the point of a droppin' shield.

Edit: The minotaur fight on the minotaur's initiative doesn't seem to change much. He deals like 14.87 damage on the first round, instead of 13.86. The one point difference doesn't change much about the fight, because the next attack still isn't enough for the kill. Looking back, I think that the boar fight had it split on who won depending on who went first, so it shouldn't change anything.

[shaikujin]

I'm very interested in knowing how each of the classes do.

Will submit yet another monk build later.

So for 1) it's 25 point buy, and restricted to only whatever is available online as per the free Dnd post, correct?

How is average critical damage calculated?

How do we factor initiative?

[eggynack]

I'm very interested in knowing how each of the classes do.

Will submit yet another monk build later.

So for 1) it's 25 point buy, and restricted to only whatever is available online as per the free Dnd post, correct?

How is average critical damage calculated?

How do we factor initiative?
In order: I've been running it at 32 point buy, so you probably should too if you don't want to be at a disadvantage. It's probably in the monk's favor anyway, and I don't really dislike having the extra points, so it's probably not a problem. I think that the book list is basically SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) stuff, plus web enhancements like the champions of valor web enhancement. That's about it by my understanding.

Average damage is just (chance to hit* average damage). You can factor in critical hits by taking the percentage chance of a critical hit out of the to hit chance, and multiplying critical hit damage by the chance of a critical. It doesn't matter that much, because the power attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) can actually run these things pretty efficiently. There's occasionally a bit of necessary finagling necessary to fit the numbers into the calculator, like for natural weapons of different kinds, and damage resistance, but doing this stuff got a lot easier when I stopped having to multiply everything out piecemeal.

On initiative, I generally just pick a guy to go first, and have them go first. I suppose you could calculate the actual percentage chance of success in each case, and multiply it out by the chance of going first, but I have absolutely no idea how to calculate the actual win rate. I just know how to calculate who wins more often. Either way, a good rule of thumb is to have the guy you think is stronger go second. That way, if the stronger guy wins then you don't have to run any more calculations. If he loses, then you probably have to run it again the opposite way, and if he wins the subsequent fight I'd just call it a tossup of some kind.

Anyway, good luck on monster fighting. It's been getting kinda boring just sending things after Strongvolio for forever. Melee combat is just so linear in general. It makes direct comparisons like this easier to run, but the fights end up kinda samey. I should probably create a warrior or samurai of some kind at some point too. I mean, ultimately one of the points of this thread was to assess whether monk's combat abilities can get them from tier 6 to tier 5. Maybe at some point, perhaps after I create the 4th level barbarian or something.

[Lans]

I think that the book list is basically SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) stuff, plus web enhancements like the champions of valor web enhancement. That's about it by my understanding.


There were 2 scenarios, one with the above sources, and one with all sources allowed, but I would prefer to avoid umd, polymorph any object and the like.

[shaikujin]

Hmmm...when I try to optimize along a certain theme, I keep hitting dead ends because the options were not available.


Lion Tribe Warrior is available online though:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001b

Let's see how this turns out.

32 point buy
Race |Str |Dex |Con |Int |Wis |Cha
Base |16 |16 |14 |8 |14 | 8
Water Orc (SRD) |20 |16 |16 |6 |12 | 6


Hand and Foot monk variant (SRD)
Level |HP |BAB |Fort |Ref |Will |Flurry |Unarmed Damage |AC |Speed |Feats |Special |Equipment
1 |11 |0 |2 |2 |2 |-2/-2 |1d6 |0 |0 |IUS(b), Stunning Fist(b), Lion Tribe Warrior |Flurry |Kama (2 gp), Sling (0 gp), 50 Sling bullets (0.5 gp), Monk's Outfit (can be sold for 5 gp), 10 gp left over for Sundark goggles



BAB with sling = +5. Avg damage per hit = 1d4 + 5 = 7.5
BAB with charge (+2 BAB) + flurry (-2 BAB) = +5/+5. Avg damage per hit = 1d6 +5 = 8.5

Without accounting for skills, average spotting distance 120 feet. Should give me a ranged attack or 2 against enemies. More if I start running away. Will likely kill the dog before it reaches me.

If I wait for the dog to come into charging range, and slug it out, I need to roll 11 to hit, so 50% chance. Adjusted damage per hit is 4.25 x 2. So 8.5 damage. It'll go down in apprx 1.53 rounds
(apprx because I likely won't get to charge next round, so hit chance is lowered from 50% to 40%. Will do a proper calculation when I can post again).


Dog bites me back, BAB 3 against AC of 15 - 2 (from my charging), 50% chance to hit me. Avg damage 6.5 x 50% = 3.25. I'll go down in 3.39 rounds.

So, a monk win?



Are my calculations correct? What if I used stunning fist and a trip? How do I factor that in?

[shaikujin]

Doh!

Forgot to factor in I have 2 less Wis and hence 1 less AC. Will re calculate next time.

[Pickford]

All you Orcs, don't forget that they are dazzled in daylight. Make sure to budget for sundark goggles!

Let's give Warrior a go. Not a PC taking the Warrior class, but an actual warrior stepping from the pages of a rules-compliant DM's campaign notes.

The DMG lists gear values for 1st level NPCs as 900gp on page 127. With this windfall, our Warrior can afford spiked Banded Mail (250+50gp), masterwork lance (310gp), heavy shield (7gp), a light warhorse (150gp), a longsword (15gp), a military saddle (20gp), a masterwork tool of ride - say, very good reins (50g) and let's say 48gp worth of miscellaneous belongings like saddles and wives and such. A mounted knight sufficiently armed for fighting in the saddle or on foot. To bump the warrior from CR1/2 to CR1, we'll give him the Elite Array (after all, knights don't just hang about being non-elite).

Let's assign his ability scores thusly: 15 Strength, 13 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 8 Intelligence, 12 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma. Let's make him human, too - he thus gets two skills, Ride and Intimidate (+5 and +4 modifiers). His feats will be Mounted Combat and Ride-By Attack, as befits a knight (though not terribly useful, but this is hardly an optimized character anyway).

Thus, Sir Average has 17 AC (19 with his shield out), and 10 HP, and an attack bonus of +4.

Sir Average rides out into battle against a light warhorse whose rider has been killed! Given their identical initiative and Spot modifiers, they see each other and react simultaneously at an average of 110ft apart.

If Sir Average goes first, he charges at the enemy atop his own majestic steed (who is too polite to make attacks and thus won't interfere with the battle). He autosucceeds the check to guide his mount with his knees, but has no time to strap on his shield and merely draws his lance as part of the charge, grabbing it two-handed. His total attack bonus is +6 due to the charge meaning that he lands the hit on an 8+, or 65% of the time. His damage is an average of 15, or 9.75 adjusted (incidentally, 3.35% of the time this is a crit and the battle ends). His Ride-By Attack lets him coast 10 more feet. The foe horse then charges himself, with a +6 attack against 15 AC, or 60% odds, dealing an average of 5.5 damage, or 3.3 adjusted. Sir Average trots his horse away 5 feet, draws his shield, and stabs the enemy horse with the lance with +4 against the horse's reduced AC of 12, again hitting on 8+. His damage is on average 6.5, adjusted to 4.25, total so far 14. The horse steps closer and counter-attacks with a full attack. The hooves each have a 30% chance to hit, and so deal 3.3 damage together, and the bite only hits on a 20, dealing 0.15 damage (this doesn't seem like a lot, but without it, the warrior could take the next 3.3 damage without going down). Sir Average's next attack brings the horse down to 3.75 damage, within sight of victory, but sadly the horse's riposte knocks the knight out.

Today, folks, we learned that knights would be slightly more effective if we fired them all and simply used twice as many horses.

Why would you put the 10 in cha instead of int? The -1 to skill points far outweighs the non-negative to 'two' skills (handle animal and intimidate)

[Lans]

Are my calculations correct? What if I used stunning fist and a trip? How do I factor that in?
Chance to hit*chance to stun, multiply the opponents damage by the result next round.

[Lans]

I'm going to try the all sources allowed version of monk with the best ACFs available to it, gonna try something wonky. Martial monk from dragon 310(yes its cheesy), invisible fist, holy strike, decisive strike. Going for quick overview as the ability to take 10 keeps things easy and i'm tired

Falco:Waterborn orc 22/14/15/6/6/11 Feats IUS, Weapon supremacy, hidden talent:adrenaline boost

Attack routine Taking 10 with weapon supremacy 14, 15 or +4, +5 for 2d6+12-14. Alternitively 16-17 for d6+6-7

AC 13, hp 10, sling and sling stones, long spear(not proficient).
Kills riding dog in 2 rounds max by taking 10, taking 7.5 from the dog, 2.5 remaining if the dog has to charge it gets one shotted if it doesn't trip.


Light warhorse does 9 damage over the two rounds it takes the monk to kill it.

If the monk goes first both animals take AoO going up to him for 8 and 6.5

Level 2 Invisible fist, melee weapon mastery are online, gets masterwork leather for ac of 15.

Dretch gets falco punched for 2d6+18 and dies. Monk takes 4.2 points of damage of its charge if he is flat footed.

Spider also dies to one average hit, if it poisons(23% chance) the monk for 3+ points of strength (11.5%) taking his damage down to 2d6+14 then it would take a little better than average.

Against warhorse he can use the sling for 5.6(24.4), horse charges for 5(11.5) Monk uses Decisive strike for 2d6+18 killing horse on average. Horse full attacks for 9.4 from hooves and 1.6 form mouth leaving monk with .5 unless he uses invisible fist for 50% miss chance. So monk can kill the horse with 0 rounds to spare if he goes second

Third level grabs psionic fist, against ogre he can take ten for an attack of 18 does 6d6+18 for 39 damage average. If his d6s average 2 he drops the ogre. If the ogre goes first it will charge and deal 16 against the flat footed monk on average taking him down to 7. Monk can take another average attack with his invisible fist leaving him at ~2 hp.

4th he puts a point into con and now has 32hp. Buys necklace of natural weapons 2.6 Attack bonus of +12( 3 base, 6 strength, 2 mwm, 1 enhancement) with his unarmed strike. +10 if he uses decisive strike.

[georgie_leech]

I'm going to try the all sources allowed version of monk with the best ACFs available to it, gonna try something wonky. Martial monk from dragon 310(yes its cheesy), invisible fist, holy strike, decisive strike. Going for quick overview as the ability to take 10 keeps things easy and i'm tired

Falco:Waterborn orc 22/14/15/6/6/11 Feats IUS, Weapon supremacy, hidden talent:adrenaline boost

Attack routine Taking 10 with weapon supremacy 14, 15 or +4, +5 for 2d6+12-14. Alternitively 16-17 for d6+6-7

AC 13, hp 10, sling and sling stones, long spear(not proficient).
Kills riding dog in 2 rounds max by taking 10, taking 7.5 from the dog, 2.5 remaining if the dog has to charge it gets one shotted if it doesn't trip.


Light warhorse does 9 damage over the two rounds it takes the monk to kill it.

If the monk goes first both animals take AoO going up to him for 8 and 6.5

Level 2 Invisible fist, melee weapon mastery are online, gets masterwork leather for ac of 15.

Dretch gets falco punched for 2d6+18 and dies. Monk takes 4.2 points of damage of its charge if he is flat footed.

Spider also dies to one average hit, if it poisons(23% chance) the monk for 3+ points of strength (11.5%) taking his damage down to 2d6+14 then it would take a little better than average.

Against warhorse he can use the sling for 5.6(24.4), horse charges for 5(11.5) Monk uses Decisive strike for 2d6+18 killing horse on average. Horse full attacks for 9.4 from hooves and 1.6 form mouth leaving monk with .5 unless he uses invisible fist for 50% miss chance. So monk can kill the horse with 0 rounds to spare if he goes second

Third level grabs psionic fist, against ogre he can take ten for an attack of 18 does 6d6+18 for 39 damage average. If his d6s average 2 he drops the ogre. If the ogre goes first it will charge and deal 16 against the flat footed monk on average taking him down to 7. Monk can take another average attack with his invisible fist leaving him at ~2 hp.

4th he puts a point into con and now has 32hp. Buys necklace of natural weapons 2.6 Attack bonus of +12( 3 base, 6 strength, 2 mwm, 1 enhancement) with his unarmed strike. +10 if he uses decisive strike.

Uh, how the heck is this level 1 monk getting Weapon Supremacy, which needs Fighter 18?

[eggynack]

I also don't think it's crazy to not allow any dragon stuff. It seems reasonably outside of the parameters of any book restrictions that have been suggested, even if you have access to all books. Thus, I don't think that martial monk should be allowed. Also, what book is adrenaline boost from? I haven't really found it anywhere yet, and a source on that would thus be convenient.

[TuggyNE]

Uh, how the heck is this level 1 monk getting Weapon Supremacy, which needs Fighter 18?

By means of being AWESOME. (Also, doesn't that ACF say you get to ignore prereqs or something? It's pretty stupid.)

[iDesu]

Uh, how the heck is this level 1 monk getting Weapon Supremacy, which needs Fighter 18?

Martial Monk replaces the bonus feats monks can get with the fighter feat list. Since they still don't need prerequisites they can grab weapon supremacy at level 1.

[eggynack]

Ah, so it was the stupid dragon thing. I think we should just say that we won't use stupid dragon things, and move on with our lives. I mean, that stupid dragon thing is just stupid, while simultaneously remaining a dragon thing. It seems like that's at least two counts against it. Three if you count being a thing as part of the count. You probably don't though, so it's just two counts, I figure. More than enough though.

[georgie_leech]

Oh wow, that is a little extreme. Amazing how much is suddenly available if you forget to add "you must still meet normal prerequisites, treating your monk level as effective fighter levels" or something.

[WhatBigTeeth]

By means of being AWESOME. (Also, doesn't that ACF say you get to ignore prereqs or something? It's pretty stupid.)
Something like that.
It doesn't say you do need to satisfy prerequisites.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions about the cheesiness of the usage.

[Lans]

I also don't think it's crazy to not allow any dragon stuff. It seems reasonably outside of the parameters of any book restrictions that have been suggested, even if you have access to all books. Thus, I don't think that martial monk should be allowed.

It provides a high end benchmark, which is why i think it should be allowed.


Also, what book is adrenaline boost from? I haven't really found it anywhere yet, and a source on that would thus be convenient.
Complete psionic 1st level power page 78.

[eggynack]

It provides a high end benchmark, which is why i think it should be allowed.
I don't see why all first party stuff isn't a perfectly fine high end benchmark. I mean, people are saying that the reading you're using is spurious, so now you've entered the realm of meta-cheese. Also, you're using crazy cheese within cheese in order to beat a frigging riding dog. The least you could do is fight some CR 2 opponents, given that the barbarian was killing those with the restriction of legally available online stuff. It just seems like it's overdoing it a bit, when there's so much stuff in first party books already.



Complete psionic 1st level power page 78.
Thanks. It's somewhat amusing how much that looks like a poor approximation of rage to some extent.

[Lans]

I don't see why all first party stuff isn't a perfectly fine high end benchmark. I mean, people are saying that the reading you're using is spurious, so now you've entered the realm of meta-cheese. Also, you're using crazy cheese within cheese in order to beat a frigging riding dog. The least you could do is fight some CR 2 opponents, given that the barbarian was killing those with the restriction of legally available online stuff. It just seems like it's overdoing it a bit, when there's so much stuff in first party books already.
It is overdoing it a bit, but that is because I wanted the highest I could go for the monk which, is still less than the whirling frenzy barbarian.
Dragon may not be first party, but it is the most used third party source, and it gives more options to play around with.


Thanks. It's somewhat amusing how much that looks like a poor approximation of rage to some extent.
I was going for a SSB Ganandorf effect and decided psionic fist was the way to go for it which I needed psionics for.

[eggynack]

It is overdoing it a bit, but that is because I wanted the highest I could go for the monk which, is still less than the whirling frenzy barbarian.
Dragon may not be first party, but it is the most used third party source, and it gives more options to play around with.

You may have a point. If super cheesy dragon monk is generally worse than Strongvolio, the core barbarian of friendship, that's pretty damning evidence against the monk's power level.

Edit: Ooh, I didn't know that water orcs were in the SRD. Ya learn something new every day. It'd probably be smart to give Strongvolio that and just take away combat reflexes or something. He hasn't even made use of it in these battles. It's basically a strict upgrade on everything that Strongvolio is doing.

[eggynack]

I'm going to put some basic stats on paper, and see how he does against like a centaur or something. Strongvolio's stats are now str: 22, dex: 14, con: 18, everything else: 6. His frenzy attack, which is what I'll be using cause he's going first, goes +7/+7 and deals 2d6+12. He has an AC of 18 and an HP of 14. Later, I might run the version where the centaur goes first, and Strongvolio will probably lose. However, this is mostly just a thing I want to do cause it seems interesting.

Round one: Strongvolio frenzies, runs in, and double stabs the centaur. According to the power attack calculator, this deals 28.66 damage, which kills the centaur. I think it might actually might do 33.07, because it'd be hitting his flat-footed AC. Either way, one-hit KO against a CR 3 opponent.

Now, I'm going to run the centaur's attack as if he went first. He basically has to one shot the barbarian, or he just loses the whole fight. His attack is being made against an AC of 14, because his base AC is 16, and he loses 2 from not having dex.

Round one: The centaur charges in and attacks with his long sword. This attack deals 12.28 damage against Strongvolio if he's flat-footed, and 10.92 if he's not. Either way, it fails to kill Strongvolio.

I think these results might be skewed a bit, because I didn't account for the bow. However, they're pretty telling results in general. Stronvolio definitely wins if he's able to get a hit off, and the centaur isn't necessarily able to. All in all, it seems like a generally favorable fight for our mighty level one barbarian. I might run a few more fights like this, but then again, I might not. It depends on whether I can find more neat CR 3 guys for him to fight. Either way, water orc is crazy.

[Gwendol]

Eggynack: Minotaur's are two legged, which may render tripping a bit more viable for Strongvolio.

Also, while grappling can be difficult to succeed with solo, it is a wonderful tactic to shut down a single enemy and allow your team to take down while you hang on/in.

[Lans]

You may have a point. If super cheesy dragon monk is generally worse than Strongvolio, the core barbarian of friendship, that's pretty damning evidence against the monk's power level.

Well weapon supremacy isn't very synergistic with decisive strike, the falco punch idea might not be the most viable of build choices there are still more things to look at

[shaikujin]

Redoing level 1 fight because I missed out a lowered AC and also, I can't find sundark goggles/sun lenses/shaders online.

Lion Tribe Warrior feat is also limited to Humans, so that's out as well. Choosing Evasive Reflexes instead.

Stats:

WuTseng, the water orc monk.
Hand and Foot monk variant (SRD)

32 point buy
Race |Str |Dex |Con |Int |Wis |Cha
Base |16 |16 |14 |8 |14 | 8
Water Orc (SRD) |20 |16 |16 |6 |12 | 6


Level |HP |BAB |Fort |Ref |Will |Flurry |Unarmed Damage |AC |Speed |Feats |Special |Skills |Equipment
1 |11 |0 |2 |2 |2 |-2/-2 |1d6 |0 |0 |IUS(b), Stunning Fist(b), Evasive Reflexes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060706a) |Flurry |Balance (Dex) 4, Hide (Dex) 1, Move Silently (Dex) 1, Spot (Wis) 1, Tumble (Dex) 1 |Cold Iron Kama (4 gp), Kama (2 gp), 2 Slings (0 gp), 50 Sling bullets (0.5 gp), 50 Cold Iron Sling bullets (1 gp), 20 Shurikens (4 gp), 5 Cold Iron Shurikens (2 gp), 2 bags of caltrops (2 gp), 2 gp left* for misc adventuring gear (like a piece of chalk, 2 sacks, flask, bedroll).


*Average starting gold for a monk is 12.5 gp. Picked Explorer's Outfit to start with, sold for 5 gp. Net starting gold = 17.5 gp.

AC from Dex and Wis = 14

BAB with sling = +4 (+5 from Str, -1 from light sensitivity)
BAB with kama/shurikens/unarmed = +4 (+5 from Str, -1 from light sensitivity)
BAB with kama/shurikens/unarmed using Flurry (-2) = +2/+2

Average damage per hit with sling = 1d4 + 5 (+ 5% for crit) = 7.5 + 0.38 = 7.88
Average damage per hit with kama/unarmed = 1d6 +5 (+ 5% for crit) = 8.5 + 4.25 = 8.93
Average damage per hit with shuriken = 1d2 + 5 (+ 5% for crit) = 6.5 + 0.33 = 6.83


Fight simulation coming soon.

[eggynack]

Ooh, we're doing more of this? It's been awhile. You should try running up against the light warhorse rather than the riding dog. There's a sub-goal after that of seeing how high a CR'd monster you can kill. I think the barbarian tops out at around 3 at first level, so that's probably something to aspire to.

[shaikujin]

Ooh, we're doing more of this? It's been awhile. You should try running up against the light warhorse rather than the riding dog. There's a sub-goal after that of seeing how high a CR'd monster you can kill. I think the barbarian tops out at around 3 at first level, so that's probably something to aspire to.

Yeah, always wanted to do this. But couldn't find the time :D

Will definitely go against the light warhorse, then if the monk is still alive, against the riding dog after a 6 hour rest.

Here's what I have so far:


Fight 1 against Light Warhorse:
Warhorse's Spot modifier allows it to spot WuTseng at 140 feet on average.
WuTseng spots his opponent at only 110 feet (accounting for light sensitivity and spot modifier).

Warhorse has no ranged attack, it moves to close the distance with WuTseng.
WuTseng spots Warhorse at 110 feet, both rolls initiative.

Monk has +2 initiative higher than the horse. Since draws go to the combatant with a higher mod, that's a 62% chance that WuTseng will win initiative.



My idea is to calculate results based on both initiative scenarios, then multiply the chance by the damage at the end of both scenarios and add them together. (eg 75% to do 10 damage = 7.5, plus 25% to do 4 damage = 1, = 8.5 damage a round).

Hope this gives a more accurate test.

[Emperor Tippy]

Level 1 SRD only monk.

Race: Wild Elf (+4 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Con)
Flaws: Vulnerable (-1 AC), Frail (-1 HP per level).
Abilities (32 PB): Str 10, Dex 22 (18 base, +4 racial), Con 10 (12 base, -2 racial), Int 6 (8 base, -2 racial), Wis 16, Cha 8.
HP: 7
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow, Improved Initiative, Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, Up the Walls.
Initiative: +10
Saves: Fort +2, Reflex + 8, Will +5
Skills: Hide +10 (4 ranks, +6 Dex), Move Silently +10 (4 Ranks, +6 Dex)
Speed: 40 ft. (30 base, +10 Insight)
Melee AB: +0
Ranged AB: +6
Weapon: Longbow, Arrows.
AC: 18 (10 base, +3 Wis, +6 Dex, -1 Vulnerable)
----
Basic Combat Strategy: Run out of range and ideally up a wall or a tree to a spot out of reach from the ground (otherwise keep running until such a spot is found or a lead sufficient to ensure that you enemy can't attack you without a full round of movement is obtained). Use your Longbow to shoot your enemy with arrows until it dies.

This Monk can kill virtually all non casting first level enemies or challenges simply by kiting them constantly and peppering them with arrows until they die. Ranged attacks are a slight problem but the Monk's AC tends to be sufficient to keep him safe against enemies at this level.

This can easily kill both of the first level enemies listed in the OP.

Frankly though, SRD only monks suck (as do level 1 Monks).

The basic idea behind this build though can see you all of the way to level 20. Take advantage of the Monk's speed to stay out of range of your enemies and then just keep hitting them with arrows. It's not so good with a group because said group will often have either ended the fight or died before you manage to whittle your enemy down from outside its range.

---
I might post a full 3.5 Monk build (well Monk 17/ Factotum 3) later.

[Pickford]

I also don't think it's crazy to not allow any dragon stuff. It seems reasonably outside of the parameters of any book restrictions that have been suggested, even if you have access to all books. Thus, I don't think that martial monk should be allowed. Also, what book is adrenaline boost from? I haven't really found it anywhere yet, and a source on that would thus be convenient.

Agreed...also isn't Martial Monk a class variant? (As in: I don't exist in the game world unless regular monks don't exist)

[shaikujin]

Level 1 SRD only monk.

Race: Wild Elf (+4 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Con)
Flaws: Vulnerable (-1 AC), Frail (-1 HP per level).
Abilities (32 PB): Str 10, Dex 22 (18 base, +4 racial), Con 10 (12 base, -2 racial), Int 6 (8 base, -2 racial), Wis 16, Cha 8.
HP: 7
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow, Improved Initiative, Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, Up the Walls.
Initiative: +10
Saves: Fort +2, Reflex + 8, Will +5
Skills: Hide +10 (4 ranks, +6 Dex), Move Silently +10 (4 Ranks, +6 Dex)
Speed: 40 ft. (30 base, +10 Insight)
Melee AB: +0
Ranged AB: +6
Weapon: Longbow, Arrows.
AC: 18 (10 base, +3 Wis, +6 Dex, -1 Vulnerable)
----
Basic Combat Strategy: Run out of range and ideally up a wall or a tree to a spot out of reach from the ground (otherwise keep running until such a spot is found or a lead sufficient to ensure that you enemy can't attack you without a full round of movement is obtained). Use your Longbow to shoot your enemy with arrows until it dies.

This Monk can kill virtually all non casting first level enemies or challenges simply by kiting them constantly and peppering them with arrows until they die. Ranged attacks are a slight problem but the Monk's AC tends to be sufficient to keep him safe against enemies at this level.

This can easily kill both of the first level enemies listed in the OP.

Frankly though, SRD only monks suck (as do level 1 Monks).

The basic idea behind this build though can see you all of the way to level 20. Take advantage of the Monk's speed to stay out of range of your enemies and then just keep hitting them with arrows. It's not so good with a group because said group will often have either ended the fight or died before you manage to whittle your enemy down from outside its range.

---
I might post a full 3.5 Monk build (well Monk 17/ Factotum 3) later.

While playing out the battle with the light warhorse, I was considering other ranged weapons as well, but was stuck with slings and shurikens at level 1 as I can't afford them with the measly 12.5 gp I get on average... Unless I can get the Faerun feat that gives me 300 gp.

I also can't outrun the horse if it charges/double moves (2 x 60 feet), even with caltrops (providing they score a hit) halving its' movement to 30 feet, it'll catch up to me unless I take the quick trait or choose a fast moving race.


Any suggestions on the best way to overcome these? (at level 2 I intend to take the Dragonborn template in order to gain (Ex) Flight by level 6. That, with my sling and 100 rounds of cheap sling bullets should give me an auto-win button against all land bound opponents.)

[DeltaEmil]

WuTseng, the half-orc monk.
Hand and Foot monk variant (SRD)
If WuTseng is a half-orc, he shouldn't get light sensitivity.

[shaikujin]

If WuTseng is a half-orc, he shouldn't get light sensitivity.

Whoops, typo, meant to use Water Orc. Will edit my post.