what monsters are tier 3 or even tier 2?

[CyberThread]

what sort of monsters that can be player races choices, are equal to a class of tier 3 or even tier 2?

[MukkTB]

What level range do you want?

Without that answer the best I can give you is NPC's with mostly levels in classes of the appropriate tier. Monsters can be eyeballed but the tier system doesn't apply to them as much. A monster doesn't need to have a wide variety of skills. A monster just needs to do one thing well and be in an environment and situation where that thing applies. It helps if they have just enough versatility to handle basic curveballs the players might throw at them.

[Urpriest]

As PCs, you mean?

Succubus is arguably around Tier 3, maybe a high Tier 4. Good skills, at-will abilities with DCs that make them actually worth using, shapeshifting...good stuff in general.

At the lower levels, Planetar and the like are actually Tier 1, since they start out gaining casting as fast as Clerics while having Outsider HD. This tails off eventually though.

[Vknight]

As PCs, you mean?

Succubus is arguably around Tier 3, maybe a high Tier 4. Good skills, at-will abilities with DCs that make them actually worth using, shapeshifting...good stuff in general.

At the lower levels, Planetar and the like are actually Tier 1, since they start out gaining casting as fast as Clerics while having Outsider HD. This tails off eventually though.

Agreed.
I love the succubi but that LA.

If LA, buyoff could be done before class levels. And/Or you didn't need to get all the levels in a Savage Species class it would boost certain monsters

[CyberThread]

In this case, am looking at a ambush drake, and the dog like creatures from sandstorm.

[Eldan]

IF you start out high enough, Ethergaunts. They are scary.

[sonofzeal]

By "dog-like creature" you mean Marru? The Marrulurk, specifically, is a dang potent PC race. I'd show serious respect for any Marrulurk Swordsage or whatnot.

[Gavinfoxx]

Level Adjustment is mean.

To what extent are you lowering or setting Level Adjustment for the race?

[Snowbluff]

By "dog-like creature" you mean Marru? The Marrulurk, specifically, is a dang potent PC race. I'd show serious respect for any Marrulurk Swordsage or whatnot.

Yeah, they are pretty good at murdering things. I think they are Tier 4, since their skills aren't so good, but they have a good stats, SoS, SA, sneakiness, and Death Attack.

Marrulurk Warlocks can be pretty fun.

[jindra34]

I think Sylph has to go on the list somewhere, despite having LA of +5. If only because it has Sorcerer casting of HD (not racial HD)+4. That stacks with casting from levels. Yeah that is just a wee bit powerful.

[Snowbluff]

Pixies are really good, but I am not sure if they quite touch T3.

[sreservoir]

I think Sylph has to go on the list somewhere, despite having LA of +5. If only because it has Sorcerer casting of HD (not racial HD)+4. That stacks with casting from levels. Yeah that is just a wee bit powerful.

at least it's not quite as bad as phaerimm.

shaedlings are also broken, but those are broken beyond tiers.

[Urpriest]

In this case, am looking at a ambush drake, and the dog like creatures from sandstorm.

Ambush Drake is probably still Tier 4-ish. It's a really nice chassis, a decent breath attack...and that's pretty much it, over 7 levels.

Marrulurk is pretty sexy, but I agree with sonofzeal that it's probably still Tier 4 on its own.

Pixie...maybe Tier 3, but the most fragile Tier 3 possible.

[Grod_The_Giant]

shaedlings are also broken, but those are broken beyond tiers.
What's so broken about Shaedlings? Flight, construct weapons, and a pair of daily abilities?

[lunar2]

trumpet archons are awesome. they're a bit squishy before they buff themselves, because of the huge LA, but with 14 levels of cleric casting, they can buff themselves very well. probably a T3. maybe a low T2 if optimized above the average part OP level. only problem is they aren't playable till 20, unless you make a savage progression.

[tyckspoon]

What's so broken about Shaedlings? Flight, construct weapons anything, and a pair of daily abilities?

The only restriction written on what you can make with Shadow Gossamer is 'weighs 15 pounds or less.' No specification that you can only make mundane items, no requirement that you make an appropriate Craft check for unusual/complex items.. just a weight limit. Know what weighs less than 15 pounds? Scrolls. Wands. Staffs. Rings. Most Wondrous Items. Artificers are Tier 1 on the back of their ability to create any dang magic item they feel like, and Shaedlings (taken at exactly the RAW) do that for free and as a Swift action.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The only restriction written on what you can make with Shadow Gossamer is 'weighs 15 pounds or less.' No specification that you can only make mundane items, no requirement that you make an appropriate Craft check for unusual/complex items.. just a weight limit. Know what weighs less than 15 pounds? Scrolls. Wands. Staffs. Rings. Most Wondrous Items. Artificers are Tier 1 on the back of their ability to create any dang magic item they feel like, and Shaedlings (taken at exactly the RAW) do that for free and as a Swift action.
Ah. I forgot to turn off my logic while looking at the entry. Yeah, that's pretty goofy.

[Balthanon]

The Sharn out of Anauroch: the Empire of Shade is probably the most powerful race I've ever played. They have extra actions, ridiculous quantities of attacks, spellcasting that is about equal to a standard Mystic Theurge of their ECL (with the no spell components clause), defenses out the wazoo, the ability to attack almost anywhere within a 100 ft radius, amazing stat bonuses, flight, bonus feats, and more. I would put them at least on par with a wizard or other primary spellcaster despite the fact that they don't have the maximum level of spellcasting (probably higher in real game play).

[angry_bear]

Mind Flayer's are pretty powerful, and have good versatility. Great special abilities, and abilities can be frustratingly high. And table flipping frustrating spell resistance... I'd say tier 1 or 2 to be honest.

Rakshasa are also pretty high (low?) in the tiers. They've got the one fatal flaw with the whole one hit kill problem, but with the right prot spells it'll put up a pretty strong fight against anything.

[tyckspoon]

Mind Flayer's are pretty powerful, and have good versatility. Great special abilities, and abilities can be frustratingly high. And table flipping frustrating spell resistance... I'd say tier 1 or 2 to be honest.

Rakshasa are also pretty high (low?) in the tiers. They've got the one fatal flaw with the whole one hit kill problem, but with the right prot spells it'll put up a pretty strong fight against anything.

Compare to an actual ECL 15 (Mind Flayer) /14 (Rakshasha) Wizard or Sorcerer of a non-monstrous race. If they're not that good, they're not Tier 1. And they're not. Especially not Monster Manual 1 Mind Flayers (the Expanded Psionics Handbook version is closer, as they get actual manifesting and not just a weak collection of spell-likes.) The lack of level-appropriate spells requires an awful lot to make up for, especially when it's a difference of 3 or 4 spell levels.

[ddude987]

Beholders in beholder mage are extremely powerful as well though I think the only way is two scrolls of PAO which would be expensive early.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Steel Wyrmlings are tier 3 at the least and can reach tier 2 status (even tier 1 with Dragon content).

With 3 HD and 2 LA they have all the goodies of Dragon HD; but they are also the dragon with the earliest casting capabilities, casting as a Sorcerer 1, add in Loredrake for casting equal to their HD, then start adding classes that advance casting (sorcerer for a few levels, a dip into dragon slayer and you are ready to go Abjurant champion for a pretty neat gish).

To push them into Tier 1, just slap the Dragon psychosis that convert their casting to Wizard casting.

[dspeyer]

Ambush Drake is probably still Tier 4-ish. It's a really nice chassis, a decent breath attack...and that's pretty much it, over 7 levels.

That's using the LA:0 version of it that's based on a dubious interpretation of a web article, not the LA:- version in the actual monster manual 3.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Beholders in beholder mage are extremely powerful as well though I think the only way is two scrolls of PAO which would be expensive early.
Beholder mage is one of the few "no, really, this is Tier 0" options. The only thing more broken than a wizard is a wizard who can cast nine spells a round before quickening, celerity, and contingencies.

[Urpriest]

That's using the LA:0 version of it that's based on a dubious interpretation of a web article, not the LA:- version in the actual monster manual 3.

I had the impression that this thread mostly dealt with monster classes. Ambush Drakes have a monster class, aforementioned web article gives them one. While they may not have LA as straight monsters, the class is perfectly legal.

Is there some reason you think the monster class in the article is dubious? It's clearly not designed for generating NPCs, since Ambush Drakes don't have CR that matches their HD so the "level" in the class would be useless for NPC-making. So it's certainly intended for PC use, if that's what you were dubious about.

[TuggyNE]

Rakshasa are also pretty high (low?) in the tiers. They've got the one fatal flaw with the whole one hit kill problem, but with the right prot spells it'll put up a pretty strong fight against anything.

What one-hit-kill problem? Blessed bolts don't do that anymore; they just have DR 15/good and piercing now.

[Phelix-Mu]

What one-hit-kill problem? Blessed bolts don't do that anymore; they just have DR 15/good and piercing now.

Ah, that rule netted some smart characters of mine a few beyond-appropriate CR kills back in the day. It was really kind of lame actually, if great dramatically.

I really like nereids, from Stormwrack. They aren't probably up to tier 3, but they are almost low enough to hack it (ECL of 5 or so, I think), and a decent monster class might make them palatable. They have some nice abilities, and good stat bonuses. Definitely a viable choice if you really want some off-the-wall race in an aquatic campaign.

Really, the monsters with racial spellcasting are probably the only thing that comes particularly close. Tier 2 is a mighty big bar to meet, and without spells...well, that's almost unheard of. Given the standard weighing of the scales against LA and racial HD, you need some potent stuff to climb the tier ranks.

[dspeyer]

The table below shows the advancement of these creatures as they grow to maturity. You are far more likely to encounter these creatures...

Not "you are likely to have these creatures in your party". Level 4 is identified as CR 9. The article is written as a pre-built NPC and then advice on how to use the class as an obstacle in a campaign. So, yes, it's clearly intended as NPC-only.

[Urpriest]

The table below shows the advancement of these creatures as they grow to maturity. You are far more likely to encounter these creatures...

Not "you are likely to have these creatures in your party". Level 4 is identified as CR 9. The article is written as a pre-built NPC and then advice on how to use the class as an obstacle in a campaign. So, yes, it's clearly intended as NPC-only.

Hadn't noticed the CR column on the table, probably because it has + in it for some reason. Anyway, the "level" column still seems unnecessary given that interpretation.

[CyberThread]

DOESNT MATTER!


HAD STATS!

So gonna use it.