Improving odds in naval combat

[Balor01]

Hey guys,

So, I have goblins, living in coastal areas (river delta), where naval combat is common. And my idea of "goblins in a boat" vent really fast to s... as PCs started using Swim speed. Goblins come in boats, PCs punctured the boats, boats sunk, swimming goblins rolled swim checks, while they were slaughtered by PCs.

Now, I don't MIND PCs being sucesfull, but this is an area goblins were supposed to be familiar with. And with combat there. In fact sub-surface enemies should be a very common thing, something goblins found good ways to fight against.

Now, there are quite a few limitations I am facing here and here they are:

- common goblins. I can't just stick swim speed to them. The same I can not give them Blindsight or Tremorsense (water is mostly muddy - its river delta)

- primarily mundane items. Goblins have very poor acess to magic items. They can acquire potions up to 100 gp per potion, but have rather good access to poisons.

- Classess available for goblins: Rangers, Barbarians, Rogues. Full casters are EXCEPTIONALLY rare. Perhaps we can come with a Ranger spell?


So. Muddy water. Enemies that can swim like eels in water. Goblins with no Swim speed.


Is there a mundane way how to improve goblin odds?

If any additional info is needed, just say.

thanks guys

[Kerilstrasz]

the delta it is their territory..
goblin rangers could have aquatic companions..
goblins have nets installed (as traps? for fishing?) that a PC could get tangled easy (muddy water, so poor to no vision under water)..
goblins now realize their boats can be punctured easy and they reinforce them.
maybe they add some wood poles around their boats with nets, so swimmers get tangled before they reach the boats.
they could have some buckets full of water snakes that empty in river when they realize "danger" approaches.

mundane ways... these so far..

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, I'll second nets as an option. Having some drag nets behind their ships will quickly complicate that procedure, and would be the dirt cheap option, comparatively.

Goblins are usually moderately advanced. I presume if you have them as being experts in naval matters they might reinforce their hulls (Below water line) with copper. Like old British Ships of the Line. It's a bit out of the historical time frame of a typical DnD world. But they have all the technology they'd need to pull it off. Hard to puncture metal plated hulls. And a logical step that prevents damage by barnacles and other seaborne menaces.

A more expensive, but classic option? Have lookouts with grenade weapons. Fire is a common enough, and useful enough weapon in naval warfare it's likely they'd have oil flasks and what not. Average time for holding your breath is what... Con times 2 if I remember off the top of my head? So most adventurers will probably only have 28 Rounds of holding their breath. Without a native swim speed they would only be able to travel 280 feet. Needing rounds to puncture the hulls (Protip: Demolition like that should take 10 rounds as per Disable Device Sabotage), means they're talking about 170 feet under water.

If they never want to be spotted while doing that, it means they can only start their run 85 feet away from the vessel in question. Since it's open water, unless your players have Hide in Plain Sight, they wouldn't be able to hide. Meaning that they're within difficult, but possible, throwing range for grenade weapons. Since the players have already employed this tactic, they should be prepared for it. Massed Grenade fire can be surprisingly devastating.

Especially if you feel like being a jerk and using say, Tanglefoot bags. Or Bolos. And logically declaring that you get swim penalties for being hit by them.

[Rhynn]

as PCs started using Swim speed.

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly did the PCs do?

Also, what exactly are these goblins using for boats? How were the PCs able to puncture them so easily? I mean, aside from material hardness/hit points, you have to consider that boats and ships can be bailed and leaks plugged. A ship would not sink very fast from a leak caused by hand. If they're not using large vessels, then they're probably not intending to fight from the vessels anyway.

Releasing something dangerous into the water is a great idea. Swarms of leeches or tiny water snakes or piranhas or whatever. Heck, maybe they coat the bottoms of their boats with a substance that naturally attracts some such creatures. They've known about this forever (maybe it's how they fish such creatures for food), but didn't have a reason for a military application until now.

There's very few ways to fight swarms (especially ones made up of diminutive or fine creatures) in water, and if the PCs can't see in the muddy water, it's going to be relatively terrifying. "You're being bitten all over." "What by?" "You don't know, but it hurts all over. Roll a Fort save..." The nauseation effect will also handily prevent any offensive action against the boat if a save is failed.

[Balor01]

they could have some buckets full of water snakes that empty in river when they realize "danger" approaches.

I find this EPIC. Lovely. Only question is, how do goblin sailors float when boat sinks? (let's take worst case scenario - they spot danger as this "danger" punctures the boat)

Nets are not a good idea. They should have them deployed IN FRONT of the boat and in river delta ... well, you get stuck a lot with such a net. Throwing them off boat ... problem is, target is UNDER the boat. Notmuch chance of hitting anything.

What would be a decent aquatic companion for such rangers? Also aquatic companions look squishy.

As for oil flasks, I think they are not very useful. Goblins have no explosives at their disposal except burning oil. Bolan sound useless when targeting underwater targets. And tanglefoot bags. Hmm. The liquid hardens on air so it should not be usable underwater.

But thanks so far for good ideas.

[ArcturusV]

I wasn't talking about hitting targets underwater. Unless your party is entirely comprised of something like Aquatic Elves who sport Gills, they are going to be on the surface at some point. Unless I was missing something, that point would be within 85 feet of the ship itself, with no chance to hide, bobbing on the surface of the river/coastal waters. So the Gobbos would get a shot at them at that range. Shortbow Volleys, Oil on the Water (Burn everything bobbing on the surface), smack them with a Bola to entangle them so they sink instead of swim. If you played up the visibility as reducing their speed for being effectively blind, then their initial "bobbing on the surface before making our attack run" distance will be much shorter to the point where they're just begging for a Goblin to chuck a harpoon into their eye.

Dragging nets behind is less of a preventative measure and more of a measure to limit their escape routes. Going behind the vessel is the best option for creating distance when you go for an escape (Forward momentum of the ship will help carry you out of retaliation range faster). So it's likely to snag players on the way out.

If the currents are strong, nets become a better option. Ships tend to travel with currents. Meaning anyone approaching from the front will be fighting against the currents, and if the currents are stronger than 10'/round, the players wouldn't be making headway against it. Unless they were a native aquatic race. But the theory still applies.

Approaching from the side still means that you're dealing with that about 85' engagement range. Approaching from behind would be stopped by the nets dragged behind the ship, even though that would be the easiest avenue of approach as the current would help you keep pace with the ship and catch up.

[Calimehter]

Instead of class-feature animal companions, how about using Handle Animal and NPC WBL to buy/train some companion guardian creatures who can fight well underwater? Just like gobbos on land like their wargs, so gobbos in a river delta could have a couple of trained . . . .

. . . . eh, my lack of familiarity with aquatic foes from the MMs is hurting my example, but there must be some good ones in there. Freshwater sharks, if nothing else.

[Balor01]

@ArcturusV
Its water orcs. They have swim speed and well ... they can swim inderwater at least 12 rounds. More then enough to deal the damage.

Also, big problem is, water is muddy. They get FULL stealth on approach.

[ArcturusV]

Should take a lot of rounds. I mean in order to sink a ship. You need to do more than just poke a couple of holes in it. It requires systemic sabotage to create significant damage. Which is what the Disable Device skill is all about. So it's not 6 rounds to swim in and launch an attack, 6 rounds to swim out.

More like 2 rounds to swim in, 8 rounds to disable device, 2 rounds to swim out.

DC for that should be at least 25. Maybe more. If your characters are high level enough to routinely hit a DC 25 on it, they probably have easier tactics available than this (Including just chucking a fireball at them from the shoreline, Disintegrate, etc). If they wanted to take 20 to make sure to do it right, you're talking 2d4 x 20 rounds.

Stealth only applies so long as they're under water if using the water for concealment. Since you mention holding breath (Not familiar with Water Orcs off the top of my head), they obviously have to surface from time to time.

[Balor01]

Well, its a small boat (http://www.david-k-rees.com/images/portfolio/marine-subjects/weather-beaten-2-small-boat.jpg). You mean AC25? Being that they are warblades, they can overcome DR and Hardness ... should I make this that they need to deal certain amount of damage in order to pierce the bottom? But Boat AC should be like 7 or something. it is not difficult to hit.

Generally, it was - 2 rounds to get to boat, 3 more to demolish bottom, 2 more to swim away.

[ArcturusV]

Oh hell, small craft like that? Not a chance in hell that they can sneak up on it no matter how murky the water actually is. Swimming isn't exactly gliding without a trace through water. In order to find the boat they'd have to be close to the surface to get and keep bearings, if the water was that murky. Anyone in the boat is going to notice something as large as a humanoid approaching it near the surface.

I thought you were talking an actual ship, like a carrack, dhow, etc.

Keep in mind as well that if they are under water most weapons, by the rules, are also less effective. I have no idea if that would mess with Maneuvers, as the rules for underwater combat were written before ToB was a twinkle in anyone's eye. But it probably should. I mean the point to things like swords, etc, being penalized under water (Basically everything but spears and nets are) is that due to water resistance, incompatible design, etc, you just can't be effective with it.

Some maneuver which sunders and bypasses hardness is probably based on optimal use of the weapon, not subpar use fighting against the water.

Unless your guys actually accepted the usually subpar weapon choices of Spears. Which would be odd. I mean neat if it happened, but I kinda doubt it as people tend not to take spears in my own experience.

[Rhynn]

Water creatures don't get any special breath-holding ability, just a natural Swim speed (and I'm fairly sure that doesn't come with extra breath-holding).


Drowning

Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. See also: Swim skill description.

That probably does mean 20-30 (or more!) rounds of check-free diving.

Also, how are rowboats used for battle? That's just completely impossible, IMO, and any goblins trying to do that are asking to have them overturned (I mean why bother attacking the bottom?). That's just such a bad choice of vessel that I can't think of any sensible way to make it better. If I was one of the players, I wouldn't even bother with swimming up to the boat, I'd just hurl some kind of fire bomb (alchemist's fire, whatever) in it.

Edit: Also, ArcturusV is spot-on about the ridiculousness of being able to swim to a target without seeing it.

[Balor01]

Also, how are rowboats used for battle? That's just completely impossible, IMO, and any goblins trying to do that are asking to have them overturned (I mean why bother attacking the bottom?). That's just such a bad choice of vessel that I can't think of any sensible way to make it better. If I was one of the players, I wouldn't even bother with swimming up to the boat, I'd just hurl some kind of fire bomb (alchemist's fire, whatever) in it.

How should one traverse swamp then?

Rafts are a good pick, I think and exceptionally difficult to demolish.

[ArcturusV]

River Delta isn't necessarily Swamp. Granted there are places where it overlaps, like the Salt Marshes in Australia, but it's not a guaranteed thing. A River Delta can be quite deep water, like the Mississippi River Delta, which can accommodate deep riding craft quite easily.

So you don't have to feel confined to shallow riding craft like a rowboat or a raft. Though a properly constructed Raft or Canoe would actually be pretty hard to sink in DnD terms. 6-8 inches of wood thickness results in something like 15 HP and 6 Hardness if I remember how the math works off the top of my head? Which means against mundane assault it'd be quite resistant to most assaults. Even immune to fire.

Could just have them start to get serious and bust out something like a Longboat (Which was designed to ride in shallows as well), and is large enough that the smash tactic they're running would not be appropriate.

[Philistine]

Doesn't Mountain Hammer, as a Stone Dragon maneuver, require the initiator to be standing on solid ground? That would limit its usefulness to swimming characters.

Also, small wooden boats can be difficult (and very, very slow) to sink, due to the natural buoyancy of the wood.

Finally, is there some particular reason why the goblins have to be bog-standard MM goblins, rather than the Aquatic variant?

[Balor01]

Finally, is there some particular reason why the goblins have to be bog-standard MM goblins, rather than the Aquatic variant?

Well I'll just not go that way. I want to be interesting, not tailor enemies every turn of the game.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, they could use craft that are naturaly boyant and have open designs. A pontoon boat with 4-6 pontoons and cross braces that allow for attacking things under the boat sounds like a start. Goblin longspearmen sound like the way to go for guarding the boat, stabbing through the open spaces in the design to stab underwater attackers.

You would have to destroy at least 2 pontoons to sink the boat.

Give the goblin spear fighters blindfighting (to help with the miss chance of striking at targets in murky water)

Also, they can use catch polls to force the target into a grapple with the target UNDER THE WATER! Nothing like 3-4 goblins pilling on to prevent you from getting up and letting you drown under the surface.

[Callin]

Why such a limit of the classes the Goblins can have? I mean if its a full on Goblin society there would be a few clerics and at least the generic Spellcaster on hand.

Also dont forget that regular Goblins sometimes give birth to Blue's. So thats a Psion right there.

Are these just Goblins or are there a few of the other Goblinoids around the Delta? Now that they are being attacked by a new threat they might send off for some Bugbears.

The boats and being destroyed by the manuevers... well ya cant really fight that. Its what those maneuvers are GREAT for. However a boat does not sink right away. Even split in half ya got a round or two before ya go in the drink.

I agree with the whole its murky water so they wont be able to swim underwater the whole way without making checks to make sure they dont loose direction. They will need to surface or be near surface and that leaves time for Spot checks against em.

Weapons.. Im sure the Goblins are mostly using Piercing Weapons right? Spears for gigging fish and frogs and for defense from the Crocs/Gator (whatever one lives there). Nets as well. ALL the fisher goblins should have proficiency with a net. It is their lively hood.

[Rhynn]

Why such a limit of the classes the Goblins can have? I mean if its a full on Goblin society there would be a few clerics and at least the generic Spellcaster on hand.

Also dont forget that regular Goblins sometimes give birth to Blue's. So thats a Psion right there.

Because not every world is the SRD/all the books.


- Classess available for goblins: Rangers, Barbarians, Rogues. Full casters are EXCEPTIONALLY rare. Perhaps we can come with a Ranger spell?

[Callin]

Because not every world is the SRD/all the books.

Thats why I was asking a question. If that was they way that particular tribe was set up or if that was the Goblin nation? Either way is the right way for him.

So OK.. just Rangers as casters? How about the Wildshape ACF?

[Balor01]

Rhynn already answered why such small amount of casters. There are setting reasons.

@Callin

If I had any Internets I'd give them to you. Wildshape it is, good sir.

[Callin]

NP glad i could help.


Also to note.. I wanna state i wasnt trying to or come across as a certain part of anatomy. I was seriously just asking the question.

[Matticussama]

I'm going to second the idea about using Longships; they were built for combat and won't just be destroyed in a single round. That gives your players a bit more of a threat to deal with. If they wonder why these ships are tougher, just tell them that they weren't dealing with the main fighting force prior.

As far as good aquatic animal companions: since you're in a Delta, Alligators are a must!

[Fyermind]

Houserules in green. Rules in black.

You should have some defense against stone dragon maneuvers by being more than the orcs height above the bottom or having the bottom be silty mud.

The orcs shouldn't be able to make more than one attack per round because the boats keep moving.

Boats with two inch wooden hulls have hardness 5 and 20 hp.

Since you can only attack with slashing or bludgeoning weapons for a sunder, and there are penalties for attacking with these damage types under water, you are totally justified halving damage from slashing too.

AC should be pretty abysmal, but increasing AC due a slippery surface to make it say, 10, shouldn't be unreasonable. That might prevent total power attacks all the time.

Further, breaking through the side of a boat should have to happen twice without being stopped to sink the boat quickly as per the rules in Arms and Equipment. If it happens once, give the goblinds a set period of time it takes them to emergency patch with with tar and fabric. The boat isn't that deep in the water, so the pressure won't be too high.

If the orcs are staying underwater while swimming to the boat, they take penalties for being blind while traveling (half speed). I'd also have them make wisdom or survival checks to stay on course with a chance of getting off as they go. Not very far off, say for every 30' traveled a chance of being off by 5 feet in a random direction.

That is assuming they surface to check their location every round. That error should compound if they don't.

When they surface they get a hide check with a +8 bonus if they aren't moving. When they are moving, they may have total cover, but I'd still make them make a move silently check opposed by spot to see the ripples on the surface. They'd get a bonus to this based on how rough the surface of the water is. The goblins would get to negate that bonus with a successful profession (sailor) or survival check.

Once the boat is struck for the first time, they goblins should immediately start acting like they are under attack if they know the waters.

In terms of having the goblins fight back, how to they catch fish? Can they use that on orcs? If they fish with harpoons, that could work really well with blindfighting. Give them a feat that lets them strike into the water with thrown weapons because otherwise they can't per RAW.

Nets are less efficient for dealing with players, but if they can move the boats quickly enough or can use ropes to pull nets across under the boats, they could entangle and trap their foes on the hull.

Barnacles on the hull could result in slashing damage for being dragged across it as well. (and could be used to justify an increase in hardness at the beginning to say 8, the hardness of rock or shells)

I am all in favor of having leeches or dangerous fish in the water. Sharks are another possibility. They don't have to be companions of the goblins, but they might follow the fishing boats around waiting for scraps that are thrown off.

As previously mentioned attacking when the orcs surface should be fairly effective. They will have +8 AC, but massed splash damage or touch attacks should be fun. I'd second tanglefoot bags or an aquatic equivalent as a useful and brutal weapon.

[Balor01]

Thanks for input Fyermind. But I just love this idea:
Water orcs swim under boat with six goblins. Attack, pierce it. Goblins panic. Another strike, boat is sinking. Goblins calm down. Next thing, six of these guys (http://oneyearbibleimages.com/crocodiles.jpg)drop into the water from the boat. Tear orc apart/drown him with grapple.