"Streamers" spell rules - (From Shining South)

[rondinix]

Hi guys!
The spell i'm talking about is Streamers, which you can find on the manual "Shining South".
BTW here's the text:
Evocation
Level: Cleric 5, Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: One or more streamers
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You cause a number of glowing, red streamers to shoot forth from the your hand when you cast the spell.
You may fire one streamer, plus one additional streamer for every three levels beyond 9th (to a maximum of four streamers at 18th level).
Each streamer targets one creature; multiple streamers can each be targeted at a different creature, or many streamers can target one creature.
A streamer moves on its own, pursuing its target without your concentration, hovering in the same space as the target with a readied touch attack.
Whenever the target next takes any sort of action, the streamer makes a touch attack against it (at the caster's base attack bonus).
On a successful attack roll, the streamer deals 5d10 points of damage.
If a target takes no actions for the duration of the spell, the streamers around it disappear with no effect.
Streamers can be attacked (AC 20), but only magic weapons have any effect on them.
Any successful attack destroys a streamer.
Material Component: 6-inch strand of red spider silk.

As we know, the streamers can make only one attack during the round.
This means that if you attack then move, then talk (examples), you will be attacked only once, because they can't have more than one readied touch attack (as the main rules say).

Now let's assume i'm a warrior, and this is the first round i'm surrounded by streamers. I move, and the streams attack me. Then I make my attack against the wizard who casted Streamers. And I end my round.

Will the streamers be able to attack me the next round? And if yes, how is it possible, since they don't have any readied action?

[soveliss24]

It looks to me like each streamer only ever gets one attack. Once they use it, they either disappear or just float harmlessly until the duration is up. Not sure which.

[Flickerdart]

The line "Whenever the target next takes any sort of action" makes it clear - the streamers activate exactly once, on the next action the target performs. I you were hoping to use the damage to interrupt their casting, and they chose to draw a weapon or move or shout profanities at you, then you're out of luck.

[rondinix]

The line "Whenever the target next takes any sort of action" makes it clear - the streamers activate exactly once, on the next action the target performs. I you were hoping to use the damage to interrupt their casting, and they chose to draw a weapon or move or shout profanities at you, then you're out of luck.

Yes, this is perfectly clear, what i was asking is...assuming that what you said happens in round 1:

Will they be able to attack again on round 2, even if they shouldn't have any readied action?

Attacking the wizard was just a random example of action.

[soveliss24]

Exactly once. Not once per round. Once the streamer took the attack as Flickerdart described, that streamer is done.

[rondinix]

Exactly once. Not once per round. Once the streamer took the attack as Flickerdart described, that streamer is done.

Thank you guys :)

[Icewraith]

If they don't get attacks in additional rounds this seems really bad for a 5th level spell.

[soveliss24]

It gets up to a potential of 20d10 damage that can be split among several targets. Certainly not terrible for a blasting spell. And if the targets do happen to try spellcasting, it's very nice.

[Icewraith]

One 5d10 streamer at 9th level is not terrible for a fifth level blasting spell?

To me it looks like the Streamers follow the targets around and make one touch attack per round until the duration expires or the opponents get rid of the streamers.

[Slipperychicken]

To me it looks like the Streamers follow the targets around and make one touch attack per round until the duration expires or the opponents get rid of the streamers.

I've heard interpretations that they attack for every action the target takes.. although the "next" does throw that off.

[rondinix]

I've heard interpretations that they attack for every action the target takes.. although the "next" does throw that off.

Yes, this cannot happen because they attack thanks to a readied action, not with a normal standard action.
As soon as they use it, they're done.

[Icewraith]

Generally speaking readying something is a standard action, so the streamers would re-ready the touch attack on your turn. The problem with the description is the spell doesn't say what happens to the streamers after they make the first attack. This spell, while it has no save, has a fairly easy way of getting around the damage if you've got buddies, and is significantly outclassed by fireball, which does much more average damage to an area, and has a reflex save to negate half damage instead of a built-in way to prevent the spell from doing anything.

The point of the spell seems to be to get your opponent to waste their time attacking the streamers, but there's no point if the streamers only attack once. You just eat your 5d10 damage, hope the damage roll is low, and keep doing what you were doing.

Every action seems excessive, and conflicts with the streamers readying their touch attacks.

Edit: Also compare the spell to Ball Lightning, another FR spell, which is of similar level IIRC. I'm pretty sure the streamers are supposed ot attack more than once.

[rondinix]

The point of the spell seems to be to get your opponent to waste their time attacking the streamers, but there's no point if the streamers only attack once. You just eat your 5d10 damage, hope the damage roll is low, and keep doing what you were doing.


This is a very interesting and plausible interpretation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Streamer is not a creature, it's a spell effect. Thus it does not have the normal action limit of a creature, and the core rules on action economy are irrelevant.

It always has a readied touch attack for the target's next action at any given time for the entire duration of the spell, even if it just used one. It makes a touch attack every time its target takes any sort of action. Nothing states or even implies otherwise.

It always follows its target unerringly, completely independent of its readied touch attacks. Its target is always in reach no matter what.

Edit: The most realistic counter for this spell is for someone not targeted by a streamer to destroy one, and then the person whose streamer was just destroyed attacks the next one, and so forth. This is assuming they know what the streamers do, of course.

[rondinix]

This is impossible because the Spell Rules clearly says:
"Whenever the target next takes any sort of action"

It's not talking about actions, but the next (single) action of any kind.
Otherwise, the following detail you can find in the text would be useless and/or just confusing:
"A streamer moves on its own, pursuing its target without your concentration, hovering in the same space as the target with a readied touch attack."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At every moment during the spell's entire duration, the streamer always has a readied touch attack, which it will always use on the target's next action. It's not a creature, it does not suffer the limits of one standard/readied action per round that creatures do. Even if it just used a readied touch attack, it still has one readied for the target's next action, for as long as the spell lasts.

[urandom]

It's not entirely clear to me that it only happens once and then done. I agree that is a more reasonable interpretation, but I'm not certain it's the only one. According to the text the streamers follow the target with a readied action for the duration of the spell. The singular 'a readied action' could just be because they only have one readied action at a time. It doesn't say anything about disappearing afterwards, so based on that part of the text it would always have a readied action, and attack on each action. A more middle ground interpretation would be that the streamers can only attack once per round, as they must 're-ready' the attack. A bigger issue is the 'next takes any sort of action.' Each action they take is the next action they take. So at any point in time you could argue the streamers are going to attack next time they take an action. Even without this stretch you have a bit of a contradiction about whether the streamers are going to take their readied actions or not.

[Icewraith]

The rules are usually pretty specific on effects that are "one and done" e.g. true strike.

[soveliss24]

Having looked over it several more times, I'm starting to agree that the spell is just ambiguously worded. Up to the DM to figure out how it'll work out in their specific game. I'd go with one attack per streamer myself.

EDIT: Hey, just to mess with people, here's another option:

Whenever the target next takes any sort of action, the streamer makes a touch attack against it (at the caster's base attack bonus).
On a successful attack roll, the streamer deals 5d10 points of damage.
If a target takes no actions for the duration of the spell, the streamers around it disappear with no effect.
Streamers can be attacked (AC 20), but only magic weapons have any effect on them.
Any successful attack destroys a streamer.
ANY successful attack. So they can be destroyed by attacking them with a magic weapon, or they destroy THEMSELVES when they hit their target. If they miss, they ready another attack. Goofy, maybe, but it might actually end up being balanced. It's a middle ground between the positions already expressed.

[Icewraith]

No, that language is clearly in the section that delineates how to stop Streamers since they don't offer a save, and is instead of listing HP.

Your reading brings streamers back into the realm of suck, since they're back to only making one successful attack ever.

[soveliss24]

Eh, yeah. I did say I was posting it to mess with people. I'd offer it to a player who didn't like my 'one attack and done, even if it misses' option though.

[rondinix]

No, that language is clearly in the section that delineates how to stop Streamers since they don't offer a save, and is instead of listing HP.

Your reading brings streamers back into the realm of suck, since they're back to only making one successful attack ever.

I agree...maybe one attack in total it's impossible, even because the spell has a pretty long duration (at least 9 rounds)...
But 1 attack on each action is just stupid, cause otherwise there was no reason to specify that, they work using a readied action.
"with a readied touch attack"...ATTACK, not attackS.
If they had more than one per round (even if they're magic effects) then there should be written on the manual...this is not the case...(we've just said that manuals are very specific on expections...so don't tell me that...just because it's a spell effect, it has 8241541 attacks on each round, cause it's complete bull****).

This is just without sense.
Then the DMs playing wizards against players should just prepare Streamers.

Let's pick a group of 6 players against a 12th level wizard.
Streamers
Streamers (Rapid)
...you got one streamer on 4 different players....how the hell are they going to get rid of them?

IMHO you're bending the rules at your advantage, because if the streamers were able to attack more than once on the same round....this spell would be much more powerful than most of the spells from 6th to 9th level.

Meteor Swarm = 32d6
Streamers = 40d10 on EACH ACTION which you can split and arrange between all of the players.

OFF COURSE!!! :smalltongue::smalltongue:

[CheshireCatAW]

If it were to attack only once, wouldn't the language speaking of the streamer automatically following be unnecessary?

If you tried to move, it would attack. Then it would follow you without any use until the duration expires or you decide to swing at it?

I would assume the verbiage "readied action" means it would act as a character who had an action readied. Thusly it would only get to do it's attack once per turn on any action the target makes.

[icefractal]

I would say that once per turn is probably the most balanced version. Once ever makes them pretty lousy (worse than Empowered Scorching Ray (a 4th level spell) until 15th level) and makes the part about following people completely pointless. Attacking on every single action makes it a god-spell - I don't actually care if that's supported by the text, because if the developer thought that was a good idea then they were wrong.

Once per turn is pretty handy (deals good damage if the target doesn't have friends present, might screw up a spell if they don't ID what it does), but not an unbeatable lockdown.

[Arcanist]

I don't actually care if that's supported by the text, because if the developer thought that was a good idea then they were wrong.

Ice Assassin, Gate, Shapechange, Enervate, Explosive Runes if you really want to be creative.

All of these spells just come to mind right on the spot and I am sure I can think of more thinking off more given enough time (I remember a spell similar to black tentacles that deals damage... I like to add Fell Drain to it)

[Jigokuro]

Definitively not only once ever, since then the part about following you is pointless unless you have, uh, friends carry you? and the part about being able to attack them is pointless unless you have friends to attack (more likely than movement, but add the two together...)
Also probably not every action, since that would be crazy, and I think the use of the term readied attack is meant to mean once a round, even if it doesn't really; editing for terminology is not WotC's strong point -.-
1attack/round until destroyed (which isn't hard at 9th+ level, a fighter would only be disrupted the first turn for sure) is plenty balanced IMO. and more importantly is it the closest to balanced of the 3 [main] possible interpretations.

[rondinix]

You're right.
I mean...come on...this spell would make useless all the higher level spells as soon as you're able to launch 4 streamers.
8 With a rapid.
12 With rapid + Twin Spell. (60d10)

If they were able to attack on each action, this spell would be an unbeatable one, since you could stall a group of 6 players, with 2 streamers on each one.
If this spell was ment to force the teammates to help the unlucky guys who've been targeted by it, i'm sorry but this would be one of the biggest epic fails in D&D.

There's no room for interpretations regarding the number of attacks done on each round. You just need to read the text, and know the difference between singulars and plurals. xD

[Talya]

If they were able to attack on each action, this spell would be an unbeatable one, since you could stall a group of 6 players, with 2 streamers on each one.

Stalling a group of enemies for one round is a good effect, but does not make anyone particularly unbeatable.

[rondinix]

Stalling a group of enemies for one round is a good effect, but does not make anyone particularly unbeatable.

True...the problem is the absurd threat of a 60d10 attack on each action.