So this is what Angela will look like

[Avilan the Grey]

I am sorry, but I just don't see her (http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/05/09/neil-gaiman-angela-age-of-ultron/) fit into the Marvel Universe.

Interview and concept picture in the link.

[Hopeless]

Might work especially if they update the body armour instead of going the less armour the more protection they have route.

Hmm maybe start off saying she might be deranged as she'd forced within a human host as part of some unknown quest to redeem herself ala the original Thor comic.

Maybe she doesn't know what happened and we see her some years later trying to discover her place becoming a mercenary because of her inherent skills and research into her past.

How would you handle her?

[Avilan the Grey]

How would you handle her?

My point is that she doesn't fit in the Marvel Universe. For starters, she is a "Bounty hunter for God" (As in that dude, upstairs), who doesn't exist in the Marvel univese (at least not with that name and is never involved with anything directly). It's not like Thor, who is just one of hundred of "lesser gods / sufficiently advanced aliens" that the Marvel universe is full of.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Hmm I see she still has Youngbloods Disease. Will portions of her sales go to finding a cure?

Before this become that thread again I'd just point out I really have no interest in someone with as boring and uninteresting a face. Or what little there is actually is of it.


who doesn't exist in the Marvel univese

Sure He does. The Fantastic Four went to get thing back once that way.

He looks like Jack Kirby btw.

[Avilan the Grey]

Sure He does. The Fantastic Four went to get thing back once that way.

He looks like Jack Kirby btw.

He still isn't named "God", he is The-One-Above-All...

[BWR]

What's in a name?
If there is a supreme being, might as well call it god. It's not like Marvel have come out and said any of the real world Abrahamic religions are the right one in-universe, or which specific flavor of them, in that case.

Or have they? I don't really read Marvel so I could have missed it if they did.

[Avilan the Grey]

What's in a name?
If there is a supreme being, might as well call it god. It's not like Marvel have come out and said any of the real world Abrahamic religions are the right one in-universe, or which specific flavor of them, in that case.

Or have they? I don't really read Marvel so I could have missed it if they did.

The point is that according to her original mythology, she is a servant of the Christian God, specifically. Of course they can rework that, but I still have a hard time seeing her fit in.

[Man on Fire]

He still isn't named "God", he is The-One-Above-All...

nope, he was God. One-Above-All is being who might be the same guy, but it wasn't ever stated.

More o nthat, God had played a part in Jason Aaron's ghost Rider, Johnny has even been offeed a chance to meet him in person, btu refused.
Speaking of which - there are Angels in marvel Universe, several enemies of both Ghost Rider and Daimon Hellstorm were Angels. Latter's last big enemy was Adam, as in, this Adam, fro mthe Genesis.

As for the cotume - you know you had horrible design when this thing is an improvement.

[Kitten Champion]

I agree to an extent, she worked really well as a parallel for Spawn. It would like be putting Venom into DC comics and making him a villain for Batman, that's a strange context to wrap your head around but it might work once you get used to it.

On the hand, it makes Gaiman happy, so I'm happy.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I've yet to encounter a fictional universe that utilizes the idea of a Supreme Single Omnipotence that doesn't assume its the one behind any and all mortal organizations that utilize anything even remotely like that idea. You have to get much more specific in your theology to cause problems. Starting with using the J-word.

This is so easily softballed. Heck the Distinguished Competition did it for years and it worked just fine. There was an angel on the Justice League, then there's the Spectre the Angel of Vengance, and Presence was also the Source and so on.

Seriously a real "theological" problem for comics would be more like if Angela worked for Hercules or Thor. Posing a direct conflict between characters handled very specifically in Marvel.

[Mordar]

Don't forget that Marvel has brought forth other clearly biblical characters...after all, Son of Satan had a dad...

Which reminds me...boy, I did like the Defenders once upon a time. Angela seems like a better fit than Valkyrie, but she's got history.

- M

[BWR]

Ah, well. As I said, I don't read Marvel. Or much DC for that matter. Vertigo-verse is pretty obviously God-Satan-Devil-Jesus oriented.
It's just that in Hellblazer at least, the side of angels isn't really any more appealing than the side of the Devil. They're pretty much all bastards.

[Man on Fire]

Ah, well. As I said, I don't read Marvel. Or much DC for that matter. Vertigo-verse is pretty obviously God-Satan-Devil-Jesus oriented.
It's just that in Hellblazer at least, the side of angels isn't really any more appealing than the side of the Devil. They're pretty much all bastards.

There was Christian stuff in main DCU too - Spectre after all is spirit of vengeance, serving God, he once meet Spirit of Forgivness, and Church of Violence worships biblical Cain, who turned out to be Vandal Savage.

Speaking of which - Ghost Rider is function granted by Christian God too.

[Kyberwulf]

Was she really a bounty hunter in Spawn's universe? I just thought she was flying around killing evil.

I find that they are bringing her back a shame. I liked her, and her story arc. Half the reason I stopped reading Spawn was because she died. It's not that it killed my like for the comic. I just liked how they handled that arc.

It seems kind of lame that they are reviving her again.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ah, well. As I said, I don't read Marvel. Or much DC for that matter. Vertigo-verse is pretty obviously God-Satan-Devil-Jesus oriented.
It's just that in Hellblazer at least, the side of angels isn't really any more appealing than the side of the Devil. They're pretty much all bastards.

Which is not a small part of why Vertigo got exiled from the DCU.

Also something of a mixed bag depending on when, in Sandman it was pretty clear though in a roundabout way. While the ostensible spinoff Lucifer was... iffy.


Was she really a bounty hunter in Spawn's universe? I just thought she was flying around killing evil.

I find that they are bringing her back a shame. I liked her, and her story arc. Half the reason I stopped reading Spawn was because she died. It's not that it killed my like for the comic. I just liked how they handled that arc.

It seems kind of lame that they are reviving her again.

That sounds pretty bounty hunter esque to me from a fictional standpoint.

For the rest well there is the theory this is all some kind of giant legal pretext for introducing Marvelman to Marvel....

[MLai]

I am decidedly underwhelmed. This is a character who should have stayed in the 90's. If she's just going to be the type of "angel" from Darksiders then there really is zero point. I think the idea of badass rebellious angels who dress immodestly and can take-or-leave God, is passe.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I mean, it's Marvel. Thor hangs out with a surprisingly prescient parody of John McAfee. Sugar Man is ostensibly a threatening villain, not the host of Adult Swim's first cooking show. How bad can Angela be?

[Ravens_cry]

*sigh* Is it literally impossible to make a female character whose outfit couldn't do double duty for a eccedentesiast?

[Avilan the Grey]

I agree to an extent, she worked really well as a parallel for Spawn. It would like be putting Venom into DC comics and making him a villain for Batman, that's a strange context to wrap your head around but it might work once you get used to it.

Indeed. Her "Job" is to be the romantic interest / foil for Spawn. Like Catwoman, but on a vastly bigger power scale. She is also dead.

And yes, she was a bounty hunter, or rather just a hunter. I think that is how she was introduced; she sees demons and sinners as just another big game to hunt down, in her introduction she is on a safari on an ice planet to hunt and kill a member of a dragon species that is almost extinct (and is not intelligent, but an animal) only becase she has never killed one and she wants it's head on her wall.


I am decidedly underwhelmed. This is a character who should have stayed in the 90's. If she's just going to be the type of "angel" from Darksiders then there really is zero point. I think the idea of badass rebellious angels who dress immodestly and can take-or-leave God, is passe.

There are a lot of things that should have stayed in the 90ies...


I've yet to encounter a fictional universe that utilizes the idea of a Supreme Single Omnipotence that doesn't assume its the one behind any and all mortal organizations that utilize anything even remotely like that idea. You have to get much more specific in your theology to cause problems. Starting with using the J-word.


Which is almost exacly what Todd did, back in the day. The God in Spawn is the Christian God, no doubt about it. There is also another difference of course, and that is that in Spawn's cosmology there really were no other gods, which makes the implications stronger.

As for DC, I remember when Chronos killed off the Greek Pantheon, half the Hindu Pantheon and then invaded the Christian heaven and killed angels left and right (including many named ones from the Bible) so that he could conquer the "God Source" or whatever it is called in the DC universe. The one thing that gives all gods their powers. It took a combined force of the Hindu gods, the Greek gods (both saved by Wonder Woman and some Indian mythological hero) and the arch-angels of Heaven to kill him. It was actually one of my favorite WW stories, but I have always liked Indian culture...

Oh and there was also that time when Superman Blue together with Justice League defended Earth against a fallen arch-angel that aspired to be the new / next Satan and his host of traitor angels.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

*sigh* Is it literally impossible to make a female character whose outfit couldn't do double duty for a eccedentesiast?

Um, well, unless the outfit includes a mask that covers her mouth, yeah. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Hopeless]

So... she's an angellic bountyhunter specifically assigned to hunt down the truly unredeemable evils such as her opposing numbers?

Wouldn't it make more sense to reveal she's from a culture similar to New Genesis and Apokolips and was supposed to represent that view of higher powers like the New Gods and Darkseid are supposed to be?

That way she can go rogue and be what you described... albeit that would make Spawn her opposite number in both nature and inclination!

Still a new wardrobe especially a functional one seems to be in order there's a reason why that look should have never left the 90's...

[SlyGuyMcFly]

*sigh* Is it literally impossible to make a female character whose outfit couldn't do double duty for a eccedentesiast?

I think you mean ecdysiast :smallsmile: And yes, the outfit is bloody ridiculous and should be taken out back and shot.

[MLai]

There's a big word for... that. And it highly resembles a religious word, too.
Huh I learned something new.
This must mean all angels must dress this way! I can totally alliterate the words!

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think you mean ecdysiast :smallsmile: And yes, the outfit is bloody ridiculous and should be taken out back and shot.

I did not expect anyone to know the correct word. I guess it's the internet and there are bajillions of people and easily accessible dictionaries, but I still didn't expect it so soon. Nice.

[Avilan the Grey]

I did not expect anyone to know the correct word. I guess it's the internet and there are bajillions of people and easily accessible dictionaries, but I still didn't expect it so soon. Nice.

Not that there's anything wrong with being one. But as a fighting outfit...

[Ravens_cry]

I think you mean ecdysiast :smallsmile: And yes, the outfit is bloody ridiculous and should be taken out back and shot.
Ah, that's the word. Thank you.:smallsmile:
I think a flame thrower, followed by an exorcism and perhaps a good staking would also be of use in . . . retiring that outfit.

[MLai]

Ah, that's the word. Thank you.:smallsmile:
I think a flame thrower, followed by an exorcism and perhaps a good staking would also be of use in . . . retiring that outfit.
Hopefully with the character still in it.

Why is Neil Gaiman so attached to this character that he is willing to lawsuit over her, and then parade her around like it's an awesome thing that he won custody? I thought NG is like, a good writer?

[Kitten Champion]

Hopefully with the character still in it.

Why is Neil Gaiman so attached to this character that he is willing to lawsuit over her, and then parade her around like it's an awesome thing that he won custody? I thought NG is like, a good writer?

She's not a terribly written character, particularly in comparison to early Image attempts. Sure, she looks like something that crawled out of the pages of Heavy Metal, but in the context of the Spawn universe I kind of liked her. I guess because she's something like Castiel from Supernatural meets Wonder Woman.

If they changed her design to something like this:
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Heavenly-Sword-Official--Art-heavenly-sword-587645_550_765.jpg

She could make a pretty kickass heroine. Add in the raccoon face-paint, recolour her hair orange, then add some body armour wherever, and you're done.

[Ravens_cry]

I can't see the image for some reason, though I was able to see it when I copied the link directly, and that's seriously supposed to be a better alternative?:smallconfused:

[MLai]

She's not a terribly written character, particularly in comparison to early Image attempts.
Ok let's discuss her character sans McFarlane's art. I did collect and read early issues of Spawn. In fact I'm probably holding on to a little bit of money with those first issues. Maybe. But anyways... I encountered the character and even back then I didn't think much of her.
An angel, except oooooh badass and mostly nekkid. So grimdark.:smallsigh:
I never got to the part where she fell in love with Spawn or whatever. :smallsigh:
Help me see what got NG so excited over her.

[Kitten Champion]

I can't see the image for some reason, though I was able to see it when I copied the link directly, and that's seriously supposed to be a better alternative?:smallconfused:

Is that seriously supposed to be a criticism? :smallconfused:

I don't think Nariko is a reasonable alternative design no, but the she's not a bad design and she's got eyes.


Ok let's discuss her character sans McFarlane's art. I did collect and read early issues of Spawn. In fact I'm probably holding on to a little bit of money with those first issues. Maybe. But anyways... I encountered the character and even back then I didn't think much of her.
An angel, except oooooh badass and mostly nekkid. So grimdark.:smallsigh:
I never got to the part where she fell in love with Spawn or whatever. :smallsigh:
Help me see what got NG so excited over her.

I don't know what Neil Gaiman's investment in the character is. If you excuse her nineties-styled appearance I do think she's a good character - at least as much as anyone in Spawn was. I like more old testament approaches to angels and the morally ambiguous cosmology, which she represents ably. In the 90's she was, apparently, reasonably popular for an independent comic character. According to her wikipedia profile she was nominated for - but did not win - several fan awards. Maybe he thinks she'll get her own comic sometime in the near future?

I suspect the Spawn romance largely related to her being a fan favourite and comics being comics.

Even if my opinion of her run in Spawn was more gushing with compliments, she's still just going to end up in the Marvelverse where much of her significance, uniqueness, and general appeal is going to be diminished. Actually she's a lot like Thena from Gaiman's run on the Eternals.

I guess because he won a legal battle he feels deeper significance to her reemerging than perhaps the character warrants. Which I kind of get. Thinking you're on the right side of a legal dispute that nevertheless lasts for decades, and finally being vindicated, must be satisfying. To win and never have the character used again would be vexing.

Frankly, as someone who prefers characters having an arc and ending with it rather than carrying on in perpetuity over dozens of creators, I'd rather not see her again simply because I liked her in her own story.

[Ravens_cry]

Is that seriously supposed to be a criticism? :smallconfused:

I don't think Nariko is a reasonable alternative design no, but the she's not a bad design and she's got eyes.

Eh, depends on your definition of bad.

[Sith_Happens]

Not that there's anything wrong with being one. But as a fighting outfit...

Does she have invulnerability/super-skin? Because that makes it pretty irrelevant what or how much you wear anyways.

Not that the overall design of that outfit isn't stupid. I imagine the conversation going something like this: "What about Wonder Woman's outfit... But like, with Disney Hermes's hat and an oversized belt?" "Not cool enough, we need to make it all mecha-looking too." "Dude... you're a genius."

[Ravens_cry]

Does she have invulnerability/super-skin? Because that makes it pretty irrelevant what or how much you wear anyways.

Not entirely so. Wearing clothing that hinders your freedom of movement, even if you are nigh invulnerable, is still a bad idea, especially if you are fighting baddies that are comparable to you in power. If they can bypass your strengths, while being relatively weak, a certain amount of armouring would still be useful.


Not that the overall design of that outfit isn't stupid. I imagine the conversation going something like this: "What about Wonder Woman's outfit... But like, with Disney Hermes's hat and an oversized belt?" "Not cool enough, we need to make it all mecha-looking too." "Dude... you're a genius."
At least she isn't wearing heels.

[Man on Fire]

Does she have invulnerability/super-skin? Because that makes it pretty irrelevant what or how much you wear anyways.

Irrevelant. In Image in her first apperance Spawn proved he can hurt her and it's her job to go after people like him.

And in Marvel we have guys like Thanos, Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider and Cyclops, all of which have some sort of "@#$% your invunerability I HAVE A POWER!".

[Leon]

Does it really matter? They will all crossover/cross contaminate the other eventually and even in one setting you have multitudes of continuities on the fly at any given time.