Setting Sun [Tome of Battle] build help

[Jak]

Okay, I'm working on a Setting Sun focused Sword Sage. I think I want to make him a Strongheart Halfling or a Water Halfling, but the -4 size modifier to trip attempts is going to hurt, so I may end up going human instead. Anyone know of a way to negate the Size modifier?

Also, I've had a look at some of the maneuvers for Setting Sun, do I even need to carry a weapon?

P.S. Any suggestions for this build are welcome, I'm aiming towards a "can't touch this/ let the bodies hit the floor" kind of combat role. I'm building for level 3 or 5, maybe 6.

[soveliss24]

Negating size modifier: don't know. There might be a way, but I don't play halflings enough to have heard of it.

Weapon: Setting Sun maneuvers work unarmed as far as I know. I don't remember any maneuvers actually requiring a specific weapon, in fact. Some of the discipline-specific feats (like Shadow Blade) do that.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I always liked Setting Sun as an unarmed build for flavour, but it's questionable in how effective it is. But, you can absolutely do it (you will need to either take the Unarmed variant or burn a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike, I think.)

Snap Kick is a great little move, I think - I'm not the best at optimizing, but an extra attack at Full BAB -2 that you can make as part of a full attack, standard attack or even strike sounds well worth the price.

Oh, fun little fact - if you choose to go for Superior Unarmed Strike, the way it's worded gives you the same damage progression regardless of size, so no penalty for being a little guy.

As for negating the size penalty.... ehh. You could burn your Halfling Bonus feat on Improved Trip, which is enough to counter the penalty. So, you'd be getting Small Size and +2 Dex out of the deal, but not a lot else.

Regardless of what race you pick, I do highly suggest this build - I played essentially this in a 1st-level game, and it was one of the most fun characters I've played - even the basic throw is a thing of beauty, as you can toss enemies into positions where they'll eat AoOs from your allies when they try to get up (and be easy to hit until they do.)

[Icewraith]

Check races of the wild, I'm pretty sure there's some anti-large size options for halflings in there.

[Philistine]

The thing about Setting Sun is that the normal ways to boost Trip kinda go against the grain for a Swordsage - you really want to be Str-focused and as big as you (and your allies) can make yourself in order to get the best odds of Tripping the largest number of opponents - and larger size here is a double-dip, as it both increases your Str and provides a straight-up size bonus to the opposed check. So I have serious doubts about the practicality of a Small-sized Setting Sun-based character, at least past the first couple of levels.

[Jak]

I always liked Setting Sun as an unarmed build for flavour, but it's questionable in how effective it is. But, you can absolutely do it (you will need to either take the Unarmed variant or burn a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike, I think.)

Snap Kick is a great little move, I think - I'm not the best at optimizing, but an extra attack at Full BAB -2 that you can make as part of a full attack, standard attack or even strike sounds well worth the price.

Oh, fun little fact - if you choose to go for Superior Unarmed Strike, the way it's worded gives you the same damage progression regardless of size, so no penalty for being a little guy.

As for negating the size penalty.... ehh. You could burn your Halfling Bonus feat on Improved Trip, which is enough to counter the penalty. So, you'd be getting Small Size and +2 Dex out of the deal, but not a lot else.

Regardless of what race you pick, I do highly suggest this build - I played essentially this in a 1st-level game, and it was one of the most fun characters I've played - even the basic throw is a thing of beauty, as you can toss enemies into positions where they'll eat AoOs from your allies when they try to get up (and be easy to hit until they do.)

That's the thing, Superior unarmed strike as well as the unarmed variant are probably a no go. The 3/4 BAB leaves me having to wait until at least level 6 for that feat.

Is there something else useful my hands could be doing in between maneuvers besides hitting things? If not, what weapons would you guys recommend?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Check races of the wild, I'm pretty sure there's some anti-large size options for halflings in there.

Ehhh... not really, at least, not for this.

There are a few usefulish things, but most of them only work on enemies at least two size categories larger than you, and none of them specifically benefit tripping.

Problem is, there are already a ton of feats you want to take - Sword Sage is a good class, but lord is it feat hungry.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

That's the thing, Superior unarmed strike as well as the unarmed variant are probably a no go. The 3/4 BAB leaves me having to wait until at least level 6 for that feat.

Is there something else useful my hands could be doing in between maneuvers besides hitting things? If not, what weapons would you guys recommend?

There's a few good options.

One thing to pick early on is whether or not you want to be using Shadow Blade Technique (+Dex to Damage) - it's a great thing, especially as it piles on top of Strength, so as long as your strength is at least positive, you get the benefit from both. However, it only works with Shadow Hand weapons, of which there are three I'd say are worth mentioning:

Unarmed Strike - already covered.

Short Sword - Meh. Upside is you don't have to burn any feats to use it.

Spiked Chain - now we might be getting somewhere. You'll need to burn a feat to get it, but it's eligible for both Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade Technique, so you can have a very nice damage and to-hit going; it's also usable for trip attempts, so you can be making those in between manoeuvres.

However, it's coolest trick will cost you a couple more feats - burn Combat Reflexes and Evasive Reflexes - now you can make a 5-foot step every time someone provokes an AoO from you. With your Dex (If it's not at least 20, you're doing something wrong), this means that hitting you in Melee will pretty much not happen unless your enemy has reach as well.

[Jak]

Yeah, I noticed the feat hunger. By the way, what other disciplines/ maneuvers/ stances would compliment this build? I'm pretty sure i literally can't just learn Setting Sun maneuvers.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Shadow Blade Technique requires you to be in Shadow Hand stances for it to work - thankfully, Shadow Hand Stances kind of rock. Seriously, almost every one of them strikes me as being one of the best stances in the book.

Shadow Blade in general is actually a kickass discipline, and has a ton of options you'll want to take - teleportation, invisibility, ability damage, all kinds of stuff.

If you go TWF, Tiger Claw has some great stuff, even from the beginning - the character I played used Wolf Fang Strike on his first-even round of combat, and got two natural 20s... I almost cried.

You'll want to go Diamond Mind, as well - it's got a number of nifty things. (Attacks as touch attacks; double-damage attacks; and, at the end, the closest thing martial classes will ever get to Time Stop.) Oh, and one of the stances is sweet, too, letting you use additional counters.

[Snowbluff]

I would suggest Improved Trip.

Stonefoot Stance (That's +2 to the Str Check versus Medium or larger creatures) and Giant Killing Style would help against larger foes, but the benefit isn't that much.

Reading Magic of Incarnum:
Cobalt Expertise can help a little. It gives a bonus to Combat Expertise AC and trip checks equal to the invest essentia.

Totem Avatar bound to your feet makes you count as one size larger. (+4)

Sand Snare from Sandstorm (After ToB, this is my fave book for unarmed fighters), it's a full round action to get up if you got some dust/dirt around.

[RFLS]

Posting with the double purpose of a self-plug (check my sig) and watching this thread. I'll probably use this thread to make the Setting-Sun trip section a little better.

[Jak]

Alright, Thanks for the input guys, here's what I have so far with 32 point buy.

Strong Heart Halfling
ShH feat (Combat expertise)
1st lvl feat (Improved Trip)
3rd lvl feat ?

Str 8
Dex 20
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

With my Setting sun maneuvers I'll be sitting at a +9 bonus, that's +5 (dex) -4 (size) +4 (Improved Trip) +4 (Bonus by using Mighty Throw)


With a Human, by lvl 3, I could be sitting at a +16 bonus for maneuvers. that's +4 (dex) +4 (size from Jotunbrud) +4 (Improved Trip) +4 (Bonus by using Mighty Throw)



So... is a +9 respectable? If so, how long will it be good for?

[Phelix-Mu]

Posting with the double purpose of a self-plug (check my sig) and watching this thread. I'll probably use this thread to make the Setting-Sun trip section a little better.

Yay. I really like your guide. Please add the number of pre-reqs to the individual maneuver descriptions. This info is very useful for selecting maneuvers, and it saves time leafing through the badly-organized ToB.

As for Setting Sun, I'm trying to remember....Unarmed swordsage has some appeal, especially if you can get it to stack with a monk dip to pick up a couple of the halfling substitution stuff. I believe the...um...Hin Fist substitution levels or ACFs or whatever. One of them is a boost to opposed Trip checks. It may even be the 1st level one.

Sadly, dipping monk will be bad for BAB, which is irritating for feat selection. Swordsage has a lot of cool stuff, and Shadow Hand + stealth + teleport + chucking enemies around sounds like 10 kinds of awesome.

[Urpriest]

A short Monk dip with the Hin Disciple substitution levels (Champions of Valor web enhancement IIRC) gives you Underfoot Combat as a bonus feat much earlier than you could get it normally, leading to Other Killer Gnome-style tripping at higher levels for when maneuvers aren't convenient. Might be something to look into.

Edit: Partially Ninja'd.

[Jak]

Isn't there a gnome or halfling variant that counts as a medium size creature somewhere?

[Phelix-Mu]

I think...strongarm bracers grant Powerful Build or something much like it. Ah, my instant-reference database is off tonight. It's either strongarm bracers or armbands of might. Both in Magic Item Compendium.

A little bit of useless info: Spriggans are what comes to mind about small creatures that can just become big. It's not much of a drawback if they take away the drawback. Too bad spriggans aren't really usable as is, cause I rather like the role play concept.

A dip in psychic warrior can get you the psionic power expansion, which is a very nice thing to have.

[Jak]

holy ****, Balance on the Sky plus Tornado Throw

Throw the opponent straight up, follow him, and repeat until you run out of movement speed, after which they take falling damage. Would this work?

[FleshrakerAbuse]

By the flight/3d combat climbing stairs/upwards flight rules, the max you can go up is 45 degrees. This will decrease your falling damage and height traveled up, but otherwise that combo should work very well both in optimization factor and flavor.

This reminds of the summon hipogriff+fly upwards combo...

[Philistine]

Alright, Thanks for the input guys, here's what I have so far with 32 point buy.

Strong Heart Halfling
ShH feat (Combat expertise)
1st lvl feat (Improved Trip)
3rd lvl feat ?

Str 8
Dex 20
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

With my Setting sun maneuvers I'll be sitting at a +9 bonus, that's +5 (dex) -4 (size) +4 (Improved Trip) +4 (Bonus by using Mighty Throw)


With a Human, by lvl 3, I could be sitting at a +16 bonus for maneuvers. that's +4 (dex) +4 (size from Jotunbrud) +4 (Improved Trip) +4 (Bonus by using Mighty Throw)



So... is a +9 respectable? If so, how long will it be good for?

+9 isn't great, especially for the amount of build resources you're spending on Tripping. It'll still be enough to give you the edge over most CR3 creatures that you can trip - but note that Large monsters are already in the mix at this CR, and the largest creature you can trip is Medium. Worse, the Dex-based tripper will only ever fall farther behind from here - size boosts (from whatever source) will give you the bonus for size but penalize your check stat, for a net of only +3 per size increase.

For comparison, your Jotunbrud alternative is already at +16 solely due to not having to fight the halfling's size penalty, and he can attempt to Trip Large creatures (and arguably Huge creatures, though I don't read it that way). For the real heresy, make him a Str-based Swordsage instead of Dex-based - then every size boost gives him a +5 to Trip checks, which is nearly double the benefit accruing to the Dex Tripper.


I think...strongarm bracers grant Powerful Build or something much like it. Ah, my instant-reference database is off tonight. It's either strongarm bracers or armbands of might. Both in Magic Item Compendium.

Strongarm bracers (MIC p139) only allow you to wield weapons one size larger than normal, they provide no bonus to Trip checks. The text states that their effect does not stack with Powerful Build, but they don't do what we were looking for anyway. Armbands of might (MIC p72) provide a +2 bonus on Str-based checks, which may or may not (ask your DM!) help a character who's using a maneuver to run Trip checks off Dex instead of Str.


holy ****, Balance on the Sky plus Tornado Throw

Throw the opponent straight up, follow him, and repeat until you run out of movement speed, after which they take falling damage. Would this work?
By the time Tornado Throw becomes available, a Dex-based Tripper won't be winning many opposed rolls to Trip opponents.

[Waker]

You could benefit a little from taking three levels in Factotum to get Brains over Brawn, adding your Int to a large swath of checks/skills, including Trip checks.
There is very little reason to go with a small-sized tripper. They get too many restrictions, both the penalty and limitation on who they can trip. You are far better off going with a medium-sized race.

[Jak]

For the real heresy, make him a Str-based Swordsage instead of Dex-based - then every size boost gives him a +5 to Trip checks, which is nearly double the benefit accruing to the Dex Tripper.


Wait, what difference would it make being Strength based instead of dex based? I can use either bonus for Setting Sun maneuvers.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The thing about Setting Sun is that the normal ways to boost Trip kinda go against the grain for a Swordsage - you really want to be Str-focused and as big as you (and your allies) can make yourself in order to get the best odds of Tripping the largest number of opponents - and larger size here is a double-dip, as it both increases your Str and provides a straight-up size bonus to the opposed check. So I have serious doubts about the practicality of a Small-sized Setting Sun-based character, at least past the first couple of levels.

This. So this.

Setting Sun is possibly the most epic failure of fluff not matching the crunch in all of 3E. The fluff is all about using foes' size against them and being small and skilled, etc... The reality/mechanics is that you want to be a giant 'roid raging enlarged ogre of a man that powerlifts in his spare time.

I strongly suggest either not going into setting sun or not being a Halfling. A (Dragonborn) (Water) Orc, Jotunbrund-using Human, Half-Ogre, Goliath...even a Wood Elf... they are the ideal setting sun playable races.

[Jak]

Setting Sun is possibly the most epic failure of fluff not matching the crunch in all of 3E.

I think that actually goes to monk, but yeah, it looks like this is a close second. Which is disappointing, because I tried sword sage in an attempt to make a usable monk.:smallsigh:

[Draz74]

The thing about Setting Sun is that the normal ways to boost Trip kinda go against the grain for a Swordsage - you really want to be Str-focused and as big as you (and your allies) can make yourself in order to get the best odds of Tripping the largest number of opponents - and larger size here is a double-dip, as it both increases your Str and provides a straight-up size bonus to the opposed check. So I have serious doubts about the practicality of a Small-sized Setting Sun-based character, at least past the first couple of levels.
Eh, actually, the only reason Strength is better than Dexterity for a Setting Sun tripper is because it's an easier combo with larger size categories. All the tripping maneuvers let you use DEX instead of STR. So if you could somehow get a race that's big but still has great DEX (Half-Minotaur Githzerai? :smallwink:), you could dump Strength and still be a great tripper.

But yeah, crunch and fluff sadly don't mesh very well for Small Setting Sun Trippers. If I had a player who wanted to play such a build, I'd homebrew a feat that lets a Setting Sun user take away his target's size bonuses vs. tripping, and also let him target any size of creature with his trips.

EDIT: I should mention that Strength-based Swordsages are underrated in general, even ignoring tripping. The Swordsage's main abilities are its maneuvers, and there's literally nothing in 95% of its maneuvers that has specific synergy with Dexterity. (Exceptions: Counter Charge, Death in the Dark, Balance on the Sky, and the TWF-based Tiger Claw stuff.) Swordsages can even get decent AC regardless of Dexterity (mithral breastplate + good Wisdom + shield).


One thing to pick early on is whether or not you want to be using Shadow Blade Technique (+Dex to Damage)
First of all: the feat is just called Shadow Blade. Shadow Blade Technique is a Strike maneuver.

Second, yes, deciding early on whether you are going to use this feat is important for a Swordsage. Mostly because it's a feat that demands a LOT of resources dedicated to it. (Only works with specific weapons and while in specific stances.) The benefit can be significant, but you have to realize what a big commitment you're making.

(In the end, I generally advise against dedicating resources to Shadow Blade, unless the whole idea of a build is to fulfill a "ninja" theme. There are too many other Feats I'd like to take on a Swordsage; and damage bonuses are relatively easy to come by; and I love some of the non-Shadow-Hand stances.)


There are a few usefulish things, but most of them only work on enemies at least two size categories larger than you, and none of them specifically benefit tripping.
Well, Confound the Big Folk actually does have some tripping-specific stuff in it. But it doesn't combine particularly well with Setting Sun stuff, since you can't combine the two standard action abilities into the same standard action.


By the way, what other disciplines/ maneuvers/ stances would compliment this build? I'm pretty sure i literally can't just learn Setting Sun maneuvers.
Tip #1: The real jackpot in Setting Sun are the defensive abilities: Counter Charge, Baffling Defense, Shifting Defense, etc. Especially if you stick with being a Halfling.

Tip #2: When in doubt, using Diamond Mind is a good rule of thumb. As long as you have max ranks in Concentration, there are plenty of good choices in Diamond Mind, and most of them don't demand a lot of commitment from other parts of your build.

Tip #3: See the Swordsage Handbook for ideas about what to cherry-pick from Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw. :smalltongue:


holy ****, Balance on the Sky plus Tornado Throw

Throw the opponent straight up, follow him, and repeat until you run out of movement speed, after which they take falling damage. Would this work?

Is there any indication in Tornado Throw (er, besides its name) that the targets don't fall back to the ground in between each throw? I thought it said they have to "land prone" in an empty space ... and that the damage the maneuver deals is already partially because of falling.

Although juggling someone higher and higher into the air sure does put the "tornado" image into it ...

[Philistine]

Wait, what difference would it make being Strength based instead of dex based? I can use either bonus for Setting Sun maneuvers.

The benefit of going Str-based is that if you can get size boosts somehow - which you want to do anyway, for the sweet Size bonuses to Trip - those size boosts increase your Str but decrease your Dex. This makes Str Trippers much more efficient than Dex Trippers, especially at higher levels where you're more likely to have access to one or more size increases. And by then, you need every advantage you can get in order to cope with the ever-bigger and -stronger monsters you start encountering.

[avr]

A number of the better Setting Sun throws are normal trip checks, not the 'choose strength or dexterity' maneuvers. So strength based swordsages have plenty of support. There's even a picture of a bugbear swordsage somewhere in the book, who doesn't seem to have dumped strength.

[Jak]

You know what? D&D has done this to me too many times. It gave a fluff, and a different crunch, so I'm going to return the favor in kind. This is a place where I think re-skin is an acceptable option.