Quantifying fun... Not really fun...

[DontEatRawHagis]

So I recently started playing DnD at a friendly local game store and have been having some fun. However, a few days ago the tables got scrabbled so that people could get to know each other better and that new players could learn from them. I don't consider myself too new, I've run campaigns and have played 4e for about two years, so relatively new to some.

Meeting with the veteran players though reminded me a lot of why I never got back into Magic the Gather, DotA, or World of Warcraft. They laid everything out in front of me mathematically. So much so that I would not doubt if I found out that they wrote Character Optimization guides.

The problem is that being around them makes me feel like I'm playing the game wrong. At the same time, it feels like because I'm playing "wrong" I'm ruining their fun of the game, which I'm not purposefully trying to do.

Its hard knowing that every time you roll to do something they are facepalming because they think you are an idiot instead of just playing differently.

Anyone know how to deal with situations like this without being a jerk about it? I started this as a hobby not so I could be a pro athlete.

[soveliss24]

This can be a problem with some groups, where the amount of skill and/or effort dedicated to optimizing varies wildly between players. I would suggest one of two things:

1) Ask the veteran players for help optimizing your character. Give them a concept, work with them, but let them point out what choices are weak/strong for what you're trying to achieve. Especially in a random-tables setting, most vets are happy to give such advice to newer players.

2) See if they'd be willing to run a more laid-back game. It sounds like the games here are likely one-shot or short-term campaigns, so they might be willing to take a break from their usual style to accommodate someone who's not quite so keen on optimizing. And optimizers are often quite good at toning down games, since they know EXACTLY what sort of numbers they need to aim for thanks to all their experience with making those numbers as big as possible :smallbiggrin:

In any case, try to find a compromise that the whole group will have fun with. That's the whole point of the hobby after all :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

Maybe you would enjoy playing more rules-light RPGs. By definition, these will have less or no rules lawyers or optimizers.

[NecroRebel]

I doubt that they'd really mind very much if you simply don't optimize your characters enough to ruin their fun, and if it does, they're jerks who you likely don't want to play with long-term anyway. 4e D&D, at least, is balanced well enough that you'll still be able to contribute meaningfully as long as your build choices make some sense. So you deal 10% less damage per round than the next guy and have slightly lower defenses - does that really matter?

Anyway, if you do want to continue playing with them, talk to them about it. Tabletop games are social games, and so any problems with the game are social problems. Talking it out is typically the best way to solve a social problem. You'll probably find that they don't really mind all that much.

[Rhaegar14]

As the only powergamer/optimizer at our table, I can say from experience that we are only trying to help. I tell my friends how they should be optimizing so that they can be more effective and have more fun with the game, and frankly, I have some trouble wrapping my head around being more mechanically effective (within the confines of your character concept) not mattering to people. But point being, an optimizer is not trying to be a jerk about it, they're trying to help you. Generally, if you ask them to stop with the op-fu because it's bothering you, they will.

[Ashdate]

In a game with thousands of choices, some choices are going to be better than others. I know at some point as a DM, I had to just accept that some players are going to use an optimization guide to help decide what powers to pick. And in any game that has a heavy focus on combat (like D&D), some players are going to try and optimize for it.

If I was your DM, I would tell you the same thing I would tell those optimizers: your character should be greater than the choices you write on your sheet.

[Tegu8788]

This is something that I struggle with, internally. I enjoy optimizing, building ideal combat characters, finding little tricks to maximizing my sheet.


But I'd never play them. All my characters are hybrids that MC, covering 2-3 roles, using implements and weapons...


Here's what I do in my head, and what I would suggest to you. Next time you play, talk with them a bit. Tell them what your character concept is, and make it clear that you have firm control over what happens to your character. If you want to play a Warlock that wants to be a Nature enthusiast, that is what will happen. But they can help you find the best way to do that. The choices you present may never include the "best" option, but when you have a chance to pick between a few choices and you don't have strong feeling, let them have their say. "You get to pick between these three powers, which one is best?" That way they get to "help" and satisfy their itch, and you get to play your flavorful characters.


It works for me anyway. Hopefully it works for you. If so, enjoy being slightly better in battle. If not, as others have pointed out, they aren't people you want to play with.

[Silma]

My opinion is, let them have it their way. This way you will all as a group have more fun. And when the campaign ends (from what I get it should be quite short anyway) just dont play with them again. See, there are many ways to play this game. Some people focus on combat and numbers, some on narrative, some on roleplaying. All 3 aspects of the game are necessary to play, but each group focuses on differenf directions. You need to find a gaming group that focuses on the same things as you.

Also I've read on a previous post that optimisers are trying to help you. That might be true, but the importaant thing is that they are trying to help you play the game the same way that THEY do. they cannot help you play the way YOU want.

[GnomeFighter]

Ignore them if you can I say. If your plaing in an open group you have to accept others playing differently and they should not make you feel bad. Play how you want to play.

Personaly I hate playing with hardcore "optimizers" who try and "help". They may think they are helping, but how would they like it if someone who is very in to RP sat and told them "well, I don't think your character would do that" or "Halflings don't do X & Y". I hate playing with anyone who trys to "help" unasked but it seems to be something that "optimizers" do. If I wanted to play a game where getting the best stats and bending the rules was all that matters I would not play D&D.

However, veteran players is nothing to do with it. I have found newer players optimize more, genraly people who started in 3.5, but this is just my exprince. What I'm trying to say is, don't thing exprince has anything to do with how people game. Most of my group have been playing for 20+ years and non of us are hardcore optimizers and only one even trys to optimize. Do you know the basic rules? Are you wanting to have fun? Thats all that matters, and a new play dose not even need to know the rules.