What does the True Neutral afterlife look like?

[Frosty]

So, we know if you're good, you go to places like Mount Celestia (depending on the exact setting of course) and if you're evil you go to the 9 Hells or tot he Abyss after death.

So what if you're a True Neutral person who doesn't worship any particular deity? Generally, what plane do they go to and what are their afterlives like?

[Kelb_Panthera]

They get plopped in the outlands, hopefully in sigil rather than near one of the border towns.

So except for the weird creatures and planar commitment, not much change really.

[Eldan]

Sigil itself doesn't take Petitioners, actually. And people aren't even sure if it's part of the Outlands.

But yeah, the outlands. For the most part, they are rather similar to the prime. Geographical features are more exaggerated, the wildlife is bizarre and sometimes dangerous, the sky is strange and space and time tend to be slightly warped, but overall still prime-like.

[Frosty]

Sigil itself doesn't take Petitioners, actually. And people aren't even sure if it's part of the Outlands.

But yeah, the outlands. For the most part, they are rather similar to the prime. Geographical features are more exaggerated, the wildlife is bizarre and sometimes dangerous, the sky is strange and space and time tend to be slightly warped, but overall still prime-like.

This is only in Planescape though.

[DeltaEmil]

No, it's standard D&D-great wheel cosmology.

You're neutral, you go to the outlands when you're dead.

[Frosty]

So are you still a petitioner? In the good and evil afterlives you turn *into* one of the native creatures of those planes after a while...

[CyberThread]

You go to the wall of the faithless :small tongue:


http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless

[karkus]

I'd just like to chime in that, yes, while True Neutral souls go to the Outlands, that Chaotic Neutral souls go to Limbo to observe primal creation for all eternity, and that the Lawful Neutral souls go to Mechanus in order to understand both the literal and metaphorical cogs of the universe. :smallsmile:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'd just like to chime in that, yes, while True Neutral souls go to the Outlands, that Chaotic Neutral souls go to Limbo to observe primal creation for all eternity, and that the Lawful Neutral souls go to Mechanus in order to understand both the literal and metaphorical cogs of the universe. :smallsmile:

...those both sound way more awesome than any of the Good afterlives.

[herrhauptmann]

So are you still a petitioner? In the good and evil afterlives you turn *into* one of the native creatures of those planes after a while...

Maybe you turn into a local of wherever even if you're not a petitioner?

I'd always thought of the petitioners as being specifically for the souls of people that died following a certain deity.

As far as what it's like in the outlands, despite the fluff, I've always though of it as being like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QskoqggB-eY (SFW, I promise)

[ngilop]

I would wager exactly like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzOM-HKhBsA)

[Eldan]

...those both sound way more awesome than any of the Good afterlives.

Not just that, but given enough willpower, you can create anything from the raw matter of Limbo.

I'm not exactly all that sure on the matter, but if you don't like it, you could just turn neutral petitioners into Rilmani.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Not just that, but given enough willpower, you can create anything from the raw matter of Limbo.

I'm not exactly all that sure on the matter, but if you don't like it, you could just turn neutral petitioners into Rilmani.

...I feel like making a class based off of this.

It'd be able to sustain a small amount of Limbo-Stuff, which would be it's version of Power Points/Spells Per Day/Whatever - it could use these to either manifest spell-like effects (Drawn from a custom list) which would exahust the stuff, or to shape weapons and armour and stuffs for itself, in which case it could hang on to it.

So, it'd start the day as a sort of fighter-y thing, drawing a lot of constant benefits from the stuff - but, when it was pressed it'd have to burn some of it for spells, and get gradually weaker until it had to rest/renew its supply of limbo-stuff.

[Snowbluff]

Limbo is sounding more and more fun.

I'd play a Limbo-Legionnaire (Named it!), Freakycheeseman. :smallcool:

[Eldan]

I started a class like that once, I called it the Protean. Though it was based on ethereal protoplasm instead.

[Bogardan_Mage]

...those both sound way more awesome than any of the Good afterlives.
Most Limbo petitioners are instantly absorbed by the plane, and those that aren't go insane. Mechanus petitioners become essentially, as far as I can determine, The Borg. Meanwhile Elysium petitioners get to keep some of their memories, and maybe even class levels if they're lucky. But whatever floats your boat.

[Eldan]

Oh, in the end everyone gets either brainwashed into an exemplar or recycled into alignment energy. That's why smart people don't die.

[Kyberwulf]

You only go into the wall, if you have no gods. You can worship gods and still be true neutral.

[Eldan]

And the wall exists only in the realms, not anywhere else, including the default cosmology.

[Cirrylius]

So are you still a petitioner? In the good and evil afterlives you turn *into* one of the native creatures of those planes after a while...
Most petitioners are just simplified, amnesiac versions of their original selves, or else bodiless observers; only extrordinarily alignment-centric souls become Archons, Demons, or whatever (on their own, anyway; there are ways to expedite that process that the Fiends use). Eventually most of them are absorbed into the plane, or their God.


You go to the wall of the faithless:smalltongue:

I hope you can hear me flipping you off, Faerun, 'cause I'm doing it as hard as I can:smallmad:

[NeoPhoenix0]

if you are curious the Manual of the Planes has a lot of information on the planes and describes the petitioners of each plane. it is 3.0 but most of it was never updated.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

I believe it was either in the DMG or one of the Complete Divines/Champions or Planar handbooks, it's stated various things for various beliefs.
According to Complete Divine, they should be able to go to the afterlife that most matches their god (or alignment or belief). For example, it was said "worshippers of the Green Man (or Shalm, can't remember exact text) go to the wilds of the Outlands to see all the seasons and aspects of nature in its extremes". Then, other gods would have similar. Remember, many humans probably worship Pelor, and thus go to heaven, even when N. And same with LN and CN dwarves and elves who worship Moradin/Corellon.

However, it's up to the campaign setting. My favorite is the choose from those most like you (a NG druid of just nature would go to either Beastlands or Outlands or Arborea, and a TN commoner would go to Outlands or Elysium, while a CN wanderer/traveler of that one F god of roads would go to Material Plane to dwell on the crossroads of the planes.)

[Renen]

Very grey?

[Rob Roy]

I hope you can hear me flipping you off, Faerun, 'cause I'm doing it as hard as I can:smallmad:

But Maztica, Zakhara, and Kara-Tur are a-okay. :smalltongue:

[Cirrylius]

But Maztica, Zakhara, and Kara-Tur are a-okay. :smalltongue:
:smallannoyed:

[DeltaEmil]

And the wall exists only in the realms, not anywhere else, including the default cosmology.Does the wall of the faithless even work for nonhumans or anybody not in the Faerunian superpantheon? Orcs, elves, goblins, dwarves and so on all seem to have their own racial pantheons, so they wouldn't be stuck in that wall if they became faithless or whatever.

[Frosty]

Hmm...What *is* Pelor's realm like I wonder, since most humans go there?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Pelor lives in The Fortress of the Sun, a gold plated fortress atop Krigala the largest island in Thalasia the forth layer of Elysium. His fortress illuminates the surrounding 100 miles with daylight both day and night. petitioners look the same as they did in life only nobler and calmer, and they can retain up to 4 class levels.

[Frosty]

And people are generally happy there? Aside from the constant blindness from the light and the sunburn, I mean?

[Alleran]

Does the wall of the faithless even work for nonhumans or anybody not in the Faerunian superpantheon? Orcs, elves, goblins, dwarves and so on all seem to have their own racial pantheons, so they wouldn't be stuck in that wall if they became faithless or whatever.
They'd go to the Wall if they had no faith in their gods, or were false. It's not limited to humans.

However, the Wall went away in the Sellplague. And was questionably present even before then (both novels and sourcebooks are equally canon for FR, but novels said it was gone while sourcebooks said it wasn't...). Nowadays, if you die while Faithless/False, you hang around on the Fugue Plain for a little while, nobody claims your soul, and your soul is absorbed into the planes and ceases to exist. Much like Eberron's Dolurrh.

Or demons kidnap you, or devils make you a deal.

[Sylthia]

I imagine the TN afterlife as pretty meh. You sit on the fence for all eternity.

[hamishspence]

Remember, many humans probably worship Pelor, and thus go to heaven, even when N. And same with LN and CN dwarves and elves who worship Moradin/Corellon.


Technically it's "devout worshippers" (and clerics) that can ignore the alignment restrictions on afterlives, according to Complete Divine.

It also suggests that most souls stay as "souls" rather than being converted to petitioners.

[Frosty]

I imagine the TN afterlife as pretty meh. You sit on the fence for all eternity.
Most people are TN though. Decent folks who just farm and try to get by.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm, my DnD Cosmology is a bit rusty, as I tend to Homebrew that stuff rather than lift from books. But wasn't one of the Planes they featured something like Arboria which was just endless wilderness and wild animals? Since Animals are Neutral, that might be where True Neutral Mortals end up?

[Sylthia]

Most people are TN though. Decent folks who just farm and try to get by.

It's a very crowded fence.

[NeoPhoenix0]

is it a picket fence or perhaps one of those pointy metal fences?

[Sylthia]

A picket fence of course, with plenty of space between each post for people to sit. If it were uncomfortable, people might be tempted to get off the fence.


is it a picket fence or perhaps one of those pointy metal fences?

[Saintheart]

Surely a True Neutral afterlife would be beige?

*b-boom tssss*

[hamishspence]

Most people are TN though. Decent folks who just farm and try to get by.

Don't know about most- after all, the PHB says "Humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral."

Still- since TN is the "typical" alignment for humans (again according to the PHB) it will probably be a bit more common than any of the others.

[graymachine]

Generally, when I'm homebrewing a TN afterlife, I tend to make it similiar to the folks that drink from the River Lethe (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe) in Hades (Greek, not D&D version.) Even when I use standard D&D cosmology, I typically describe the Outlands in a similar manner; while I use the general Outlands description, I also describe the mindset as a loss of self (like drinking from the River Lethe.) The character simply exists with little memory or thought, in sort of a proto-sapient state.

[Devils_Advocate]

And people are generally happy there?
In Elysium? Oh, yes, if nothing else, people are happy in Elysium. :|

Not that Elysium and Hades deserve a good flipping off as much as the Wall of the Faithless, but...


Technically it's "devout worshippers" (and clerics) that can ignore the alignment restrictions on afterlives, according to Complete Divine.
Is it even possible to worship in a non-devout fashion? That seems like it would be tricky to pull off.


It also suggests that most souls stay as "souls" rather than being converted to petitioners.
It's pretty vague about what this entails.


Hmm, my DnD Cosmology is a bit rusty, as I tend to Homebrew that stuff rather than lift from books. But wasn't one of the Planes they featured something like Arboria which was just endless wilderness and wild animals? Since Animals are Neutral, that might be where True Neutral Mortals end up?
You mean the Beastlands? Nah, like you said, it's endless wilderness and wild animals. It might be appropriate for wild, uncivilized people to end up there, just like it would be appropriate for raving mad people to go to Pandemonium even if not Chaotic. But for Boring Neutral people, it's the Outlands.


the PHB says "Humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral."
D&D 3.5 humans must be different than the ones on Earth, I guess.

[hamishspence]

Is it even possible to worship in a non-devout fashion? That seems like it would be tricky to pull off.


Sure- by being very much a "go along with it" sort of person- who attends services to (deity of choice) purely because it's what the community does.



D&D 3.5 humans must be different than the ones on Earth, I guess.

That, or your interpretion of "Neutral" is different from that of the PHB's writers.

[Joe the Rat]

Here's a slightly different approach. The afterlife you end up in, alignment-wise, tends to be one that fits closest to your view of how the world works, or rather how you think it should work.

Mount Celestia is all goodness and light and valiancy and serene mountain temples on your way further and further up to the peak of enlightenment. If you are LG, you probably consider this the right approach to living. Next door Arcadia is the same, but with farms and orchards rather than messy monastic mountains. Neat rows and a good harvest. Apparently farmers tend towards LG/LN.

Ysgard is wild and violent, but tempered with the value of courage and a rough-and-tumble honor. The strong rule, but to be cruel is unnecessary, now let's go get drunk and fight giants and kill each other, in no particular order. A very fighty plane.

The Nine Hells is all about power, and having control. The strong and clever fight and subvert and deal their way to the top. If you find going here a punishment, odds are you weren't expecting to come in at the bottom.

Limbo is the pure randomness of life, stripping away the trappings of stability and structure and natural life cycles that get in the way. If you think stuff just happens, this is the pure version of that.

The Outlands? As True Neutral, you don't think life should be particularly ordered or chaotic, and both good and bad things should happen. Your ideal worldview is pretty close to how most Prime Material worlds look. So why wouldn't True Neutral Afterlife look a lot like the world as it is - only more so?

[NeoPhoenix0]

a lot of humans do neutral things but that doesn't mean they are true neutral. it just means they are smart enough to know they aren't capable of getting away with crime, saving people, enforcing the law, etc. people's thoughts tend to be all over the alignment spectrum. also in DnD human alignment tends to be community driven, which makes sense since your upbringing helps define you moral outlook.

[Devils_Advocate]

a lot of humans do neutral things but that doesn't mean they are true neutral. it just means they are smart enough to know they aren't capable of getting away with crime, saving people, enforcing the law, etc. people's thoughts tend to be all over the alignment spectrum.
Right. Thoughts of all sorts without bias towards one alignment or another, lacking the conviction to take a stand on either side, doing what seems to be a good idea. Neutral! :P

The "Unaligned" variety of Neutral rather than the "dedicated to balance" type, of course. "True Neutral" is sometimes used to refer to the former but traditionally means the latter.


Sure- by being very much a "go along with it" sort of person- who attends services to (deity of choice) purely because it's what the community does.
I guess that I've never been quite clear on the meaning of "worship". I had been under the impression that it refers more to an attitude of reverence than to any form of physical action; indeed, that it includes veneration never outwardly expressed but excludes insincere sucking up.

But if common usage of the word covers insincere sucking up, then okay.


That, or your interpretion of "Neutral" is different from that of the PHB's writers.
Ah, but I didn't claim that humans tend toward Neutral, or any other alignment, specifically! I'm just saying that there doesn't seem to be so much variance that human alignment would be all over the map, even if I'm by no means clear on where it's centered.

[Frosty]

Here's a slightly different approach. The afterlife you end up in, alignment-wise, tends to be one that fits closest to your view of how the world works, or rather how you think it should work.

Mount Celestia is all goodness and light and valiancy and serene mountain temples on your way further and further up to the peak of enlightenment. If you are LG, you probably consider this the right approach to living. Next door Arcadia is the same, but with farms and orchards rather than messy monastic mountains. Neat rows and a good harvest. Apparently farmers tend towards LG/LN.

Ysgard is wild and violent, but tempered with the value of courage and a rough-and-tumble honor. The strong rule, but to be cruel is unnecessary, now let's go get drunk and fight giants and kill each other, in no particular order. A very fighty plane.

The Nine Hells is all about power, and having control. The strong and clever fight and subvert and deal their way to the top. If you find going here a punishment, odds are you weren't expecting to come in at the bottom.

Limbo is the pure randomness of life, stripping away the trappings of stability and structure and natural life cycles that get in the way. If you think stuff just happens, this is the pure version of that.

The Outlands? As True Neutral, you don't think life should be particularly ordered or chaotic, and both good and bad things should happen. Your ideal worldview is pretty close to how most Prime Material worlds look. So why wouldn't True Neutral Afterlife look a lot like the world as it is - only more so?So what if you're hedonistic (you really love your fun) and you're not strongly good or evil (hey, I have my fun as long as I don't rain on others' parades), and you're not crazy like those folks who like Limbo?

[Eldan]

No reason to be crazy to like Limbo. Just be chaotic, go there, and create your own hedonistic paradise. Ysgard has feasts every night, and I'm sure as vikings, they'd respect bards and poets as well as fighters. The Outlands have great cities and I'm sure there's a few wonderful restaurants as well. There's plenty of hedonist gods too.

[zlefin]

Maybe you get sent to the neutral planet from futurama?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Right. Thoughts of all sorts without bias towards one alignment or another, lacking the conviction to take a stand on either side, doing what seems to be a good idea. Neutral! :P

The "Unaligned" variety of Neutral rather than the "dedicated to balance" type, of course. "True Neutral" is sometimes used to refer to the former but traditionally means the latter.


I meant that each individual would tend to a different alignment. some individuals are more altruistic than anything else and would be considered good. some people tend to be more selfish or vengeful, they would tend to the evil or chaotic ranges.

you don't have to be anywhere near as extreme as adventurers tend to be to be not true neutral.

[Cirrylius]

But wasn't one of the Planes they featured something like Arboria which was just endless wilderness and wild animals? Since Animals are Neutral, that might be where True Neutral Mortals end up?


You mean the Beastlands? Nah, like you said, it's endless wilderness and wild animals. It might be appropriate for wild, uncivilized people to end up there, just like it would be appropriate for raving mad people to go to Pandemonium even if not Chaotic. But for Boring Neutral people, it's the Outlands.

I've always found it curious that the only Outer Plane more or less devoted wholely to nature and animal life is Neutral Good with Chaotic tendencies. Animals aren't good or chaotic; they just do stuff.

[Eldan]

I imagine it's a bit of an artefact from back when it was called The Happy Hunting Grounds.

[Marnath]

So what if you're hedonistic (you really love your fun) and you're not strongly good or evil (hey, I have my fun as long as I don't rain on others' parades), and you're not crazy like those folks who like Limbo?

You become a Bacchae, and go to Arborea.

[Frosty]

You become a Bacchae, and go to Arborea.What's a Bacchae? A spirit of alcohol?

[Marnath]

What's a Bacchae? A spirit of alcohol?

My understanding is that they're basically college frat boys, except with both genders and without the date rape drugs. They basically wander around in a big group having an unending party with lots of booze and good food. If you're a mortal you have to make a will save to avoid joining the party which would be bad for you since you don't get nourishment from their food or drink. So you either are enthralled for 101 days or until you fall over and die from starvation. But to actually be one of them sounds pretty awesome if you're into that sort of thing.

[Cirrylius]

My understanding is that they're basically college frat boys, except with both genders and without the date rape drugs.
IIRC, they're prone to fits of berserk rage if denied something mid-debauch. Rohypnol might actually be better.

[Eldan]

My understanding is that they're basically college frat boys, except with both genders and without the date rape drugs. They basically wander around in a big group having an unending party with lots of booze and good food. If you're a mortal you have to make a will save to avoid joining the party which would be bad for you since you don't get nourishment from their food or drink. So you either are enthralled for 101 days or until you fall over and die from starvation. But to actually be one of them sounds pretty awesome if you're into that sort of thing.

Noooot quite without the date rape drugs. They occasionally rape, kill and eat people, in more or less that order. They are from Greek mythology, after all. Basically, they are crazed mob of party goers who follow Bacchus around. Mainades or Maenads, in Greek.

Also, technically female only, though D&D dropped that part.

[Frosty]

They occasionally rape, kill and eat people, in more or less that order. So they're the crazy marauder people from Firefly?

[Marnath]

Noooot quite without the date rape drugs. They occasionally rape, kill and eat people, in more or less that order. They are from Greek mythology, after all. Basically, they are crazed mob of party goers who follow Bacchus around. Mainades or Maenads, in Greek.

Also, technically female only, though D&D dropped that part.

The D&D version explicitly doesn't hurt people. The only thing they can really do if you attack them is run away, or offer you food and drink.

[angry_bear]

Hmm, my DnD Cosmology is a bit rusty, as I tend to Homebrew that stuff rather than lift from books. But wasn't one of the Planes they featured something like Arboria which was just endless wilderness and wild animals? Since Animals are Neutral, that might be where True Neutral Mortals end up?

All animals except dogs... All dogs go to Celestia. :smallsmile:

Also relevant to any discussion in regards to the afterlife:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

[Devils_Advocate]

Ironically, the Expanded Psionics Handbook's maenads (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#maenads) tend to be particularly reserved, though emotional. Speaking of maenads and alignment, apparently they're "Usually neutral" even though "they lean strongly towards law". Go figure.

They also find the course of action you are suggesting to be highly illogical, Captain, but whatever.


I've always found it curious that the only Outer Plane more or less devoted wholely to nature and animal life is Neutral Good with Chaotic tendencies. Animals aren't good or chaotic; they just do stuff.
Ah, but the Beastlands is the Outer Plane of idealized nature. The Plane that truly represents the world as it really is is, well, the Prime Material, assuming that by "the world" one means the Prime Material Plane. Ain't gonna find a better representation of a thing than itself.

And that includes technology and civilization and even intrusions into the world by alien forces, because those are all parts of the world too. Conceptual divisions of things into "natural" and "unnatural" are stuff that people cooked up. Of course, if you like the way the world is, including its diversity and its potential for change and development, you might need to fight bits of the world once in a while in order to keep it that way.

Mortals devoted to no deity but simply to the world -- the world as it is, not some ideal of how the world "should" be -- probably just reincarnate into new mortal forms. That's what would make sense, at any rate.


I meant that each individual would tend to a different alignment.
Oh. Okay, but you also seemed to think it's typical for people to moderate their alignment tendencies out of self-interest, which is Neutral. The non-Neutral alignments are for people who follow the rules even when it's impractical, defy authority even when that invites punishment, help others even when this requires self-sacrifice, hurt others even when there's no good reason to do so, etc.


some individuals are more altruistic than anything else and would be considered good. some people tend to be more selfish or vengeful, they would tend to the evil or chaotic ranges.
Yeah, but most people are a big mix of a bunch of different stuff, right? Not being exactly Neutral doesn't mean someone isn't Neutral. And merely tending to something isn't the same thing as actually being it, which I think is the crucial point here.


you don't have to be anywhere near as extreme as adventurers tend to be to be not true neutral.
Right, because True Neutral is carefully balanced, and most people aren't going to be that. But most people aren't going to be any of the other alignments either. Most people are going to be unaligned.

[NeoPhoenix0]

@Devils_Advocate

so you are saying anyone who isn't an extreme zealot is true neutral?

what you are describing is the stupid alignment system. you know lawful stupid, chaotic stupid. the only exception in your system is non-stupids are lumped with neutral stupids and stupid neutrals. i would link for you but i am in finals week and don't have enough time to look for it.

any intelligent person knows if you give your life to save one person you can't anyone in the future.