Iaijutsu Focus / Tiny-Diminutive-Fine Size / Confound the Big Folk

[Mr. Wongburger]

I've been wanting to play a Samurai-ish character for quite some time, but I'm not a complete fan of the class. I recently discovered the Knight class, and subsequently, Person-Man's Knight Handbook. I've become increasingly intrigued with being Tiny/Diminutive/Fine and utilizing Confound the Big Folk Feat in conjunction with the Knight's Test of Mettle.

Of the suggestions to get to Tiny/Diminutive/Fine size, I'm trying to limit my cheese factor (and appease my DM) so a permanent racial ability or race is preferred (unless there's something equally simple) and it would need to avoid homebrew races or anything not in a printed splatbook. On top of that, I want to maximize the Knight's Test of Mettle, so I'm a little averse to LA races. On top of THAT, I'd really like to make use of Iaijutsu Focus (via Factotem or Samurai lvl 1 start) which requires drawing a weapon when I attack.

So here's my problem: How can I reach at least Tiny size (preferably Fine) without an LA yet retaining the ability to use weapons?

- I'd like to avoid Cha penalties (hard to do with 90% of the low level creatures, I know). However, Str and Wis aren't that important to me.
- I've found that with the web enhancement, Kobolds receive the Slight Build making them Tiny for certain things without an LA, but I find them pretty underpowered...
- I've found the Jermaline and Muckdweller (which are Tiny) but their stats make me cringe as well...
- I've considered asking the DM if he would be willing to consider a permanent Reduce Person on a Whisper Gnome as part of a curse that was bestowed upon him (I don't see this as flying...). This would allow a racial substitution for weapon proficiency Gnome Quickrazor (from CW) which is perfect for Iaijutsu Focus.
- Person-Man recommended the Hengeyokai (updated for 3.5 which removes the +1 LA) and changing into a Sparrow. However, this would negate the ability to use Iaijutsu Focus...

I understand I may be requesting my cake and pursuing the ability to consume it as well...

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[13_CBS]

I've been wanting to play a Samurai-ish character for quite some time, but I'm not a complete fan of the class. I recently discovered the Knight class, and subsequently, Person-Man's Knight Handbook. I've become increasingly intrigued with being Tiny/Diminutive/Fine and utilizing Confound the Big Folk Feat in conjunction with the Knight's Test of Mettle.

Of the suggestions to get to Tiny/Diminutive/Fine size, I'm trying to limit my cheese factor (and appease my DM) so a permanent racial ability or race is preferred (unless there's something equally simple) and it would need to avoid homebrew races or anything not in a printed splatbook. On top of that, I want to maximize the Knight's Test of Mettle, so I'm a little averse to LA races. On top of THAT, I'd really like to make use of Iaijutsu Focus (via Factotem or Samurai lvl 1 start) which requires drawing a weapon when I attack.

So here's my problem: How can I reach at least Tiny size (preferably Fine) without an LA yet retaining the ability to use weapons?

- I'd like to avoid Cha penalties (hard to do with 90% of the low level creatures, I know). However, Str and Wis aren't that important to me.
- I've found that with the web enhancement, Kobolds receive the Slight Build making them Tiny for certain things without an LA, but I find them pretty underpowered...
- I've found the Jermaline and Muckdweller (which are Tiny) but their stats make me cringe as well...
- I've considered asking the DM if he would be willing to consider a permanent Reduce Person on a Whisper Gnome as part of a curse that was bestowed upon him (I don't see this as flying...). This would allow a racial substitution for weapon proficiency Gnome Quickrazor (from CW) which is perfect for Iaijutsu Focus.
- Person-Man recommended the Hengeyokai (updated for 3.5 which removes the +1 LA) and changing into a Sparrow. However, this would negate the ability to use Iaijutsu Focus...

I understand I may be requesting my cake and pursuing the ability to consume it as well...

Any input would be greatly appreciated.


The closest thing I can think of is the Ring of Reduction, which is found in Lords of Madness p.130. It's a Ring of Reduce Person, basically, except it works on any intelligent creature that wears the ring, not just Humanoids. Costs 20,000 a pop.

Are you trying to just build a "get small, take advantage of Confound The Big Folk-ish feats" kind of character? Logic Ninja's Killer Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.?pg=1) build could give you ideas. In summary:

Be a Gnome of some sort
Use magic items (like Ring of Reduce Person, or maybe even potions) to get down to Tiny
Get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill
Take levels in Rogue and Swashbuckler, pumping mainly Int and Dex
Take levels in Blade Bravo (Races of Stone, Gnome PrC), which among other things gives you bonuses for fighting bigger enemies, and more importantly for you, has the Goad ability, which IIRC is very similar to the Knight's Test of Mettle ability (force enemy to make a Will Save--if they fail, then their next melee attacks must be made against you)

In your case, you might be able to replace some of the Rogue levels found in Logic Ninja's build with Factotum. In fact, with Factotum, you might be able to use Polymorph spells to turn yourself into a Tiny creature, which then would get shrunk down to a Fine creature...

[Mr. Wongburger]

Thanks for the insight. I prefer the Knight class feature to the Blade Bravo class feature because it's an AoE (taunted enemies hitting their own ally who is also trying to hit me as opposed to a single enemy trying to hit me). Additionally, it's synonymous with Samurai (which is what started me down this path).

Person-Man mentioned the Ring of Reduction with his list of shrinkable methods, but I don't see any way of being able to come up with that amount of money short of starting at level 7 or 8.

I realize I may be putting too many restrictions on this, but I'm trying to get Tiny/Diminutive/Fine at 1st level preferably without a Homebrew, an LA, any other 3rd party material, and within the wealth limitations of a starting character.

[Jack_Simth]

Not permanent, but take a Small race, and get a tattoo of Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) at the seven power point mark, with the focus spent on the second size category (small -> Diminutive). Nine power points for a minutes/level duration. If you're *not* using Magic/Psionics transparency, then it technically stacks with Reduce Person (which can be made permanent) bringing you all he way to Fine.

[13_CBS]

I realize I may be putting too many restrictions on this, but I'm trying to get Tiny/Diminutive/Fine at 1st level preferably without a Homebrew, an LA, any other 3rd party material, and within the wealth limitations of a starting character.

Tiny at Level 1? Oh. Uh...:smalleek:

...Reduce Person on a Small creature? :smalleek:

A more knowledgeable person would have to confirm this, but I'm honestly not sure if it's possible to have a viable melee character that gets down to at least Tiny at level 1, and then also has levels of Knight afterwards. Even the Killer Gnome build doesn't really get going until, like, level 8 or so.

Hrm...maybe a Small Psychic Warrior? If you can get your Wisdom to at least 14, then once per day you can cast Compression on yourself (psionic version of Reduce Person), while still having good armor and weapon proficiencies.

Do you absolutely have to start doing the "get small, use Confound the Big Folk" combo from level 1? It'll be a lot easier if you're able to wait a few levels. A Small Factotum using Arcane Dilettante to cast Reduce Person would be a pretty simple thing.

Edit: Hold on a sec, you can't get Confound the Big Folk until Level 8 anyway. Are you absolutely sure you have to be able to get Tiny at level 1?


Not permanent, but take a Small race, and get a tattoo of Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) at the seven power point mark, with the focus spent on the second size category (small -> Diminutive). Nine power points for a minutes/level duration. If you're *not* using Magic/Psionics transparency, then it technically stacks with Reduce Person (which can be made permanent) bringing you all he way to Fine.

He needs to get Tiny at Level 1, though. :smallfrown:

[Kazyan]

AFB, but a thread on BrilliantGameologists says something about Petals and Incarnate Construct with an intermediary template I'm not familiar with. Ask google and your books for more info.

EDIT: Check the "negative level adjustment" rules. They would let you play a Petal if your DM agrees to waive the (cohort) tag, but you take a -2 penalty to everything. Each level up removes -1 instead of giving you a class level.

[Zovc]

I am not familiar with the "Jermaline and Muckdweller" races you mentioned, but what specifically are wrong with their stats? Unearthed Arcana has elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm) templates that could adjust your stats a little bit.

I don't know how useful that is, but I wanted to say that I fully endorse this character concept.

[Jack_Simth]

He needs to get Tiny at Level 1, though. :smallfrown:Ah. Hmm. Looks like I'd started posting before he finished the post where he had hat restriction, and I didn't notice the addendum. Hmm.

[LOTRfan]

Muckdwellers (small amphibious dinosauroids) are Tiny-sized LA +0 monstrous humanoids, but they take a huge penalty to Strength. I also believe their net ability score is -2, but I can't remember. They also have some natural armor and the ability to blind a target for one round with their water-squirt ability. Their racial statistics can be found in Serpent Kingdoms.

EDIT: Ah, I see Muckdwellers were already mentioned. My mistake.
EDIT II: Not only were they mentioned, they were brought up in the original post. You can just ignore this whole thing, now, sorry.

[Nettlekid]

Well, it might be tough to get this to fly at level 1, or at all, but there's the Druid spell Return to Nature from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It's level 7, but since the effects are primarily negative in intent, you could argue that you really ticked off a Druid one day and they roughed you up for it. The effect you're interested in is that it causes Giant-type creatures to be reduced in size one step, as though by Reduce Person. Except that...this spell's duration is Instantaneous. Which means, RAW, that you reduce in size and then there is no longer a spell acting on you. Which means you should be able to cast the spell again and shrink further. So if you start out as a Half-Giant, Medium sized and LA +1, and anger a Druid into using this several times then you can end up Fine-sized, and since the size penalties/bonuses won't stack, you'll balance out a +0 Str, +0 Dex, and +2 Con. +2 Con and Fine size (along with Powerful Build...if you want it?) are worth a +1 LA and some finagling, right?

[Mr. Wongburger]

The more I think about it, and the more you guys make excellent posts counter-arguing it, Tiny or less at level 1 is a bit of a stretch with regard to the restrictions I'm imposing.


Not permanent, but take a Small race, and get a tattoo of Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) at the seven power point mark, with the focus spent on the second size category (small -> Diminutive). Nine power points for a minutes/level duration. If you're *not* using Magic/Psionics transparency, then it technically stacks with Reduce Person (which can be made permanent) bringing you all he way to Fine.
I did consider psionic and caster levels in order to make myself Tiny or smaller on my own. The only problem is the hit to Test of Mettle I would take for not having enough levels in it. Sure, I could get items to boost Cha and Cha checks, but now I'm just piling more things on top of a build I just piled things on top of to get Tiny.



Do you absolutely have to start doing the "get small, use Confound the Big Folk" combo from level 1? It'll be a lot easier if you're able to wait a few levels. A Small Factotum using Arcane Dilettante to cast Reduce Person would be a pretty simple thing.

Edit: Hold on a sec, you can't get Confound the Big Folk until Level 8 anyway. Are you absolutely sure you have to be able to get Tiny at level 1?
You're absolutely right, the size with regard to using it with the feat wouldn't even be an issue until I could take the feat. What I'm trying to do is make the size of my character either a backstory result (i.e. somehow attaining it by level 1) or something that could potentially happen during our campaign (without forcing the DM into a corner to make it happen). If I don't get it starting out, then I'm going to have to come up with a pretty damned good reason to have the DM make it happen right in front of the other players. What I'm trying to avoid is the whole, "Well, you did that for him, why can't we have enlarge person cast permanently on us?" Or similar issues of fairness.


AFB, but a thread on BrilliantGameologists says something about Petals and Incarnate Construct with an intermediary template I'm not familiar with. Ask google and your books for more info.

EDIT: Check the "negative level adjustment" rules. They would let you play a Petal if your DM agrees to waive the (cohort) tag, but you take a -2 penalty to everything. Each level up removes -1 instead of giving you a class level.
I considered trying to persuade the use of diminishing LA, but seeing as the last campaign we were in people were stuck with their LA, I don't think the DM will let that fly; still, worth a shot and thanks for the suggestion. I've had my eye on Petals for a while, what with the Cha boost and the size, I just don't think I can get around that LA... it still might be worth it though.


Well, it might be tough to get this to fly at level 1, or at all, but there's the Druid spell Return to Nature from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It's level 7, but since the effects are primarily negative in intent, you could argue that you really ticked off a Druid one day and they roughed you up for it. The effect you're interested in is that it causes Giant-type creatures to be reduced in size one step, as though by Reduce Person. Except that...this spell's duration is Instantaneous. Which means, RAW, that you reduce in size and then there is no longer a spell acting on you. Which means you should be able to cast the spell again and shrink further. So if you start out as a Half-Giant, Medium sized and LA +1, and anger a Druid into using this several times then you can end up Fine-sized, and since the size penalties/bonuses won't stack, you'll balance out a +0 Str, +0 Dex, and +2 Con. +2 Con and Fine size (along with Powerful Build...if you want it?) are worth a +1 LA and some finagling, right?
/Agree with your synopsis on attaining this at level one. However, even if I tried to pitch this later on, I don't know how true to character my Samurai would be if he started out as a Half-Giant and then pissed off a Druid. I'm sure I could make it work (I have pretty good story-telling skills), but for me personally, I don't know if I'll like my character as much as a gnome that was cursed with a permanent reduce person.

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm steadily building a reserve of ideas and strategies to pull this off and the help is greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for being so finicky and restrictive with how this should be accomplished, but even with all of that I'm still getting some amazing ideas.

EDIT: I've been thinking about this for a little bit; what happens with Slight Build if a Kobold (utilizing the web enhancement) is reduced? Does the slight build apply it's benefits to the next size lower? Say if a Kobold was reduced to Tiny, would it's Slight Build effectively apply to being Diminutive, or would it be a wasted feature and still only apply to Tiny?

[Chronos]

In general, any size larger than Medium or smaller than Small is supposed to always include a level adjustment. There are a handful of exceptions, from authors who didn't know that, but they're very few and far between.

As for using Iaijitsu Focus with natural weapons, the rules do talk about using it with an unarmed strike, though it's never made clear how that works with the "must draw the weapon immediately before attacking" part. Presumably, that's just waived for unarmed strikes and natural weapons.

[Harrow]

Why would permanent reduce person have to be a curse? It has bonuses as well as penalties, so there's no reason you shouldn't pay for a spellcaster to use it on you. Rules for paying for spells are core, spell level squared X caster level X 10, and an additional 5 gold for each xp spent. A permanent reduce person comes in at 4840, just under 500 gold. You can buy that pretty easily before level 8.

[Amnestic]

the rules do talk about using it with an unarmed strike

Where? :smallconfused:

[BWR]

Nowhere.
Not to mention that this would be impossible since the definition of iaijutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu)is rather specific, and the skill is adapted from Legend of the Five Rings game, which is equally specific about its use.

Katana only. You could make a case for wakizashi, possibly no-dachi.
By OA RAW any melee weapon, but that is just shabby writing, and I would never allow it as anything but RAI.

[Chronos]

From Oriental Adventures, in the introductory paragraph for Iaijitsu Focus (p. 58-59):

You can also use Iaijutsu Focus in preparation for striking an inanimate object, assuming no distractions. Your extra damage is halved, just like your ordinary damage. This is the technique martial artists use to shatter objects.
I suppose that strictly speaking, "martial artists" can also refer to weapon-users, but nobody ever talks about weapons shattering objects, because it's trivial. When people speak of "martial artists shattering objects", they generally mean doing so unarmed.

And there's absolutely nothing whatsoever anywhere in the D&D rules to suggest that it's katana-only, or even sword-only. There's not even any rule you can interpret that way. Saying that it must be katana isn't RAI, it's a houserule.

[Amnestic]

By OA RAW any melee weapon, but that is just shabby writing, and I would never allow it as anything but RAI.

I think there's a decent argument to allow natural/unarmed strikes with Iajutsu Focus...for damaging inanimate objects, since they clearly state that's what martial artists use to shatter objects.

Since you cannot 'draw' an unarmed strike/natural weapon however, it would be ineligible for the more commonplace combat usage against a flat-footed foe.


From Oriental Adventures, in the introductory paragraph for Iaijitsu Focus (p. 58-59):

I suppose that strictly speaking, "martial artists" can also refer to weapon-users, but nobody ever talks about weapons shattering objects, because it's trivial. When people speak of "martial artists shattering objects", they generally mean doing so unarmed.

And there's absolutely nothing whatsoever anywhere in the D&D rules to suggest that it's katana-only, or even sword-only. There's not even any rule you can interpret that way. Saying that it must be katana isn't RAI, it's a houserule.


That's quite clearly a separate paragraph and a separate usage for the skill. That's why it says "You can also use" it like that.

There are three separate uses for Iaijutsu focus: attacking a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, participating in Iaijutsu duels, and attacking inanimate objects. An Iaijutsu duel specifies usage of Katanas, which means only the lattermost use - attacking inanimate objects - is viable with unarmed strikes/natural weapons.

[Sapreaver]

Ask to be an awakened rat they have apposable thumbs do weapon use wouldn't be an issue. Druid wanted an animal friend for his animal companion awakened a rat. Druid died you wandered around. Or any awakened animal that's tiny and has a thumb raccoon knights anyone?

[Mr. Wongburger]

In general, any size larger than Medium or smaller than Small is supposed to always include a level adjustment. There are a handful of exceptions, from authors who didn't know that, but they're very few and far between.
I have to disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. The DMG specifically outlines how to play a monster as a race factoring in HD to adjust a character's level (i.e. an LA). I fail to see how hummingbirds, house cats, and owls would qualify as level adjustment-worthy based on their size (not perfect examples, I know)... Simply because something has a bonus to their AC doesn't mean they have an advantage worthy of adjusting their level considering all of the drawbacks that come with smaller sizes.


As for using Iaijitsu Focus with natural weapons, the rules do talk about using it with an unarmed strike, though it's never made clear how that works with the "must draw the weapon immediately before attacking" part. Presumably, that's just waived for unarmed strikes and natural weapons.

From the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Iaijutsu_Focus_Skill)
Iaijutsu Focus (Cha)
This skill allows you to channel your chi more effectively when making an attack. Whenever you are making an attack roll immediately after drawing a weapon and your target is flat-footed, you may make an Iaijutsu Focus check as a free action. The results of the roll determine the amount of additional damage done, as shown on the following table:
10-14: +1d6
15-19: +2d6
20-24: +3d6
25-29: +4d6
30-34: +5d6
35-39: +6d6
40-44: +7d6
45-49: +8d6
50+: +9d6
This bonus damage stacks with sneak attack, sudden strike, et cetera. Note that in an iaijutsu duel the character who loses initiative is flatfooted, and thus a valid target for sneak attack.
Action: Not applicable; Iaijutsu Focus checks are made at the beginning of a surprise round or as part of an attack, and are therefore not actions in and of themselves.
Retry: Against inanimate objects, yes. In a formal duel or combat situation, generally not, unless the requirements for using the skill (sheathed weapon, flat-footed opponent) somehow come about again.
Special: You may also use this ability when making an attack against an inanimate object. This is the technique martial arts masters use to break boards or bricks with their bare hands.
If engaged in a formal iaijutsu duel, you may use your total Iaijutsu Focus modifier in place of your standard initiative if it is higher.
You gain a +2 bonus to Iaijutsu Focus checks if you have 5 ranks in Balance.
Nowhere in the SRD or the OA book is the word "unarmed" or "natural attack" made reference to within the description of the skill Iaijutsu Focus.


Why would permanent reduce person have to be a curse? It has bonuses as well as penalties, so there's no reason you shouldn't pay for a spellcaster to use it on you. Rules for paying for spells are core, spell level squared X caster level X 10, and an additional 5 gold for each xp spent. A permanent reduce person comes in at 4840, just under 500 gold. You can buy that pretty easily before level 8.
I understand that I could have the spell cast permanently on me. I didn't want to use that option because it wouldn't exactly be in keeping with the spirit of my character. Additionally, it could simply be dispelled (albeit with a high enough check). I understand that "saying" my character was cursed with the exact same permanent spell is theoretically exactly the same; I was suggesting that as RP fluff that would net me Tiny size starting out which forces my character to learn to fight differently (hence learning the Confound the Big Folk feat and maximizing Iaijutsu Focus).

I'm now considering the Petal race (if my DM can waive the cohort tag as mentioned earlier) but with it being stripped down. I don't know of any LA-reducing rules (barring the UA LA buyout variant), but would removing the DR and Sleep Songs (Su) warrant an LA reduction? Or am I just tailoring D&D to my whims now?

[Mr. Wongburger]

Ask to be an awakened rat they have apposable thumbs do weapon use wouldn't be an issue. Druid wanted an animal friend for his animal companion awakened a rat. Druid died you wandered around. Or any awakened animal that's tiny and has a thumb raccoon knights anyone?
I smell a Splinter (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj6qr3sEWK1qcdt9qo1_500.jpg) build coming on... :smallwink:

EDIT: Holy balls... The more I think about it... the more this is near exactly what I was looking for... THANK YOU Sapreaver, my head is chock full of cartoon animals that act human! I just need to make sure they have opposable thumbs in order to wield a weapon. Oh man, so many ideas, so little time!
EDIT II: And sadface... I just read the spell. I'm not sure how crazy I am about the 2HD it tacks on, but maybe if I trim the bonuses an awakened creature gets... Again, tailoring D&D to my whims... /sigh

[Mr. Wongburger]

I think there's a decent argument to allow natural/unarmed strikes with Iajutsu Focus...for damaging inanimate objects, since they clearly state that's what martial artists use to shatter objects.
This is in no way my intention for the skill and is why I'm still pushing for the ability to use (and draw) weapons.

[Chronos]

Mr. Wrongburger, what you linked there isn't the SRD. It's dandwiki, which is a poorly-edited hodgepodge of poorly-designed houserules and homebrew, and has no official status whatsoever. The official D&D rules for the Iaijutsu Forcus skill are found in Oriental Adventures and nowhere else, and Oriental Adventures says that martial artists use IF to shatter objects.

And hummingbirds, housecats, and owls all have a LA of --, which means that they're not at all suited for use as player characters, not with any level adjustment. And tiny size has a whole bunch of disadvantages, true, but those disadvantages only applies to one specific type of character, and so on any other type of character it's no disadvantage at all: A rogue-type would love to be tiny, and even a spellcaster would find it to be a net benefit.

[Mr. Wongburger]

Mr. Wrongburger, what you linked there isn't the SRD. It's dandwiki, which is a poorly-edited hodgepodge of poorly-designed houserules and homebrew, and has no official status whatsoever. The official D&D rules for the Iaijutsu Forcus skill are found in Oriental Adventures and nowhere else, and Oriental Adventures says that martial artists use IF to shatter objects.
You are correct that it is not from the SRD; my mis-labeling came from a google result labeling it as SRD:Iaijutsu Focus. I apologize for the confusion. As for the "poorly-edited hodgepodge of poorly-designed houserules and homebrew and no official status" comment; they did make reference to "bare hands" when using the skill on inanimate objects. Nowhere in the description of the skill within the Oriental Adventures book does it make reference to unarmed strikes, natural attacks, or even "bare hands" as the dandwiki states. So your interpretation of the skill (at least for inanimate object use) more closely resembles the website you so despise.


And hummingbirds, housecats, and owls all have a LA of --, which means that they're not at all suited for use as player characters, not with any level adjustment. And tiny size has a whole bunch of disadvantages, true, but those disadvantages only applies to one specific type of character, and so on any other type of character it's no disadvantage at all: A rogue-type would love to be tiny, and even a spellcaster would find it to be a net benefit.
You are correct that those creatures were not created with the intent of being playable races, but it's not due to their size. The DMG specifically states on page 172, "...but don't allow players to play creatures who have an intelligence score of 2 or lower..." That is why the animals I named do not have a listed LA, not because of their size. I do not dispute that the disadvantages of being small do not adversely affect every PC; however, this is just the same that the advantages do not benefit every PC. It would be impossible to have every advantage/disadvantage of a race apply to every type of character and would severely reduce the amount of choices you would make for even minor optimizations.

So as not to sidetrack this thread any further, let's try to stay on the topic I have presented thus far and not argue over implied semantics of a skill or implied attributes of a size.

[Chronos]

Well, ultimately the test of whether iaijutsu focus works that way or not is to ask your DM. I think that the line in Oriental Adventures about martial artists using it is a good argument that it should be allowable with unarmed strikes, and you can feel free to bring it up, but your DM may or may not agree.

Oh, and apologies for misspelling your name. That wasn't intentional.

[Mr. Wongburger]

Well, ultimately the test of whether iaijutsu focus works that way or not is to ask your DM. I think that the line in Oriental Adventures about martial artists using it is a good argument that it should be allowable with unarmed strikes, and you can feel free to bring it up, but your DM may or may not agree.
It seems pretty straightforward to me with the explicit statement "immediately after drawing a melee weapon" on p. 58 of OA. The only exception is, as you stated, when preparing to strike an inanimate object. Only then is the conditional weapon draw not referred to or even implied (again, in most interpretations); then its requirement can be called into question. But you're right, a DM can make this choice very simple very quickly. My DM will rule the same as I would in this case.


Oh, and apologies for misspelling your name. That wasn't intentional.
For what it's worth, it made me chuckle :smallwink:

[Zovc]

Going deeper on the Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) route:


An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm), except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.

Awaken says nothing about gaining HD if you're an animated plant. :)

8 Strength, 14 Dexterity, -- Constitution, 3d6 Int, Wis, and Cha.

Worst case, you've got 1/2d10 on top of your class levels. lol

[Mr. Wongburger]

Going deeper on the Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) route:



Awaken says nothing about gaining HD if you're an animated plant. :)

8 Strength, 14 Dexterity, -- Constitution, 3d6 Int, Wis, and Cha.

Worst case, you've got 1/2d10 on top of your class levels. lol
So I would be a living incarnation of Tricyrtis formosana AKA the Samurai (http://www.greatplantpicks.org/images/tricyrtis-formosana-samurai-ras-8-2008-03-gpp.jpg) plant :smalltongue:

I'll have to read up on animated objects, but I smell what you're stepping in.

[13_CBS]

On getting Tiny before having Confound the Big Folk: don't tiny creatures have to move into the square of whatever they're attacking to do a melee attack? And therefore provoke AoOs?

[Zovc]

So I would be a living incarnation of Tricyrtis formosana AKA the Samurai (http://www.greatplantpicks.org/images/tricyrtis-formosana-samurai-ras-8-2008-03-gpp.jpg) plant :smalltongue:

I'll have to read up on animated objects, but I smell what you're stepping in.

I mean, presumably some Tricyrtis formosana are alive. ;)

Yeah, there could be something fishy I don't know about, since this is already pretty fishy. lol

[Catszeid]

It would be possible to play as a Tibbit from Dragon Compendium. It is a Halfling that loses some bonuses for the ability to shapeshift into a tiny sized housecat at will. Your DM might consider the claws as being drawn since cats have retractable claws. However, I know that is unlikely to happen. You would not gain any charisma, but you get a good dexterity bonus. The only other problem you might run into is getting past the idea that a little cat can stand in front of a dragon and keep it occupied. Yum.

[Mr. Wongburger]

On getting Tiny before having Confound the Big Folk: don't tiny creatures have to move into the square of whatever they're attacking to do a melee attack? And therefore provoke AoOs?
Barring Tumble (I would have said "and reach weapons" but it's been mentioned that doubling your reach of 0 is still 0), you are correct; you'd provoke an AoO if you wanted to do a melee attack. However, with the Dex boost (as most Tiny creatures would have) and at worst some cross-class ranks in Tumble, that shouldn't be an incredible barrier. Additionally, the AC offset helps if I would fail my Tumble check.


Yeah, there could be something fishy I don't know about, since this is already pretty fishy. lol
I'm still not 100% sure what an awakened tree would be able to do as far as mobility, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be normal movement unrestricted. However, if that's not correct, I think I might pee a little imagining an oak tree tumbling through attackers...


It would be possible to play as a Tibbit from Dragon Compendium. It is a Halfling that loses some bonuses for the ability to shapeshift into a tiny sized housecat at will. Your DM might consider the claws as being drawn since cats have retractable claws. However, I know that is unlikely to happen. You would not gain any charisma, but you get a good dexterity bonus. The only other problem you might run into is getting past the idea that a little cat can stand in front of a dragon and keep it occupied. Yum.
I did consider a Tibbit, but my DM is pretty averse to Dragon Magazine material, as am I admittedly. I think we both feel like many of the feats/classes/races/etc. aren't as balanced as they should be (while completely understanding that a few things do get published to balance 3.5 issues). I absolutely love the idea of retracting and extending claws being considered drawing and sheathing a weapon, this might be a viable option to use Iaijutsu Focus with a creature incapable of using weapons. Thank you for this suggestion. As for playing a Tibbit; I don't think I'd enjoy the restrictions associated with it being considered a polymorph effect (i.e. no armor or armor items, no additional attacks due to BAB, etc.). I'd rather use the Anthropomorphic template from Savage Species with a cat in that case.

Also, thank you to everyone that's commented and offered help thus far; I've come a long way toward determining a viable option with regard to my thread's topic :smallsmile:

[Zovc]

I'm still not 100% sure what an awakened tree would be able to do as far as mobility, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be normal movement unrestricted. However, if that's not correct, I think I might pee a little imagining an oak tree tumbling through attackers...

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares); 50 ft. legs, 60 ft. multiple legs; 80 ft. wheels

Depending on the type of tree, I'd imagine you have multiple legs (limbs/roots?). So you could be blazin' fast. Though I suppose Awaken doesn't specify whether or not you can uproot.

Animate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm):

You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life.

Animate Object says it imbues mobility. Awaken says "an awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.

It doesn't explicitly say "the tree can walk." but it implies that you gain speed (a characteristic), and it also implies you can move your roots, which would normally be tying you to the ground.

Now to find a tiny tree. Are you a baby sapling? :3

[Sapreaver]

Some one should make a thread about converting pokemon to dnd by using the awaken spell and forcing your companion to gain class levels in a specific way. Be an animated candle holder It worked in beauty and the beast. lol

Off topic
If Someone were to play as an animated pot would it take damage from fire if it were holding water?

[Mr. Wongburger]

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares); 50 ft. legs, 60 ft. multiple legs; 80 ft. wheels

Depending on the type of tree, I'd imagine you have multiple legs (limbs/roots?). So you could be blazin' fast. Though I suppose Awaken doesn't specify whether or not you can uproot.

Animate Object says it imbues mobility. Awaken says "an awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.

It doesn't explicitly say "the tree can walk." but it implies that you gain speed (a characteristic), and it also implies you can move your roots, which would normally be tying you to the ground.

Now to find a tiny tree. Are you a baby sapling? :3
I'm thoroughly enjoying where your head's at :smallbiggrin:. Who would ever suspect the Tiny Samurai is actually Salix herbacea (http://forestry.about.com/od/treephysiology/p/smallest_tree.htm), the Dwarf Willow of Death! I know :durkon: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0150.html) would crap his pants...

Admittedly though, I feel like utilizing a tree as my race would be a tad (read: a lot) munchkin-ey... Still, I'm gonna run this by my DM Monday just for poops and chuckles.


Some one should make a thread about converting pokemon to dnd by using the awaken spell and forcing your companion to gain class levels in a specific way. Be an animated candle holder It worked in beauty and the beast. lol

Off topic
If Someone were to play as an animated pot would it take damage from fire if it were holding water?
After reading the description for animate object, I'm not sure I could use one as a race. I don't see anything about what ability scores they would get or any other character necessities...

[Chronos]

Quoth Catszeid:

The only other problem you might run into is getting past the idea that a little cat can stand in front of a dragon and keep it occupied. Yum.
Doesn't seem too implausible to me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRH7HyipqtA).

[Zovc]

I wish you luck in selling your GM you being a tree samurai. :)

My advice: first, try to think of ways to fluff it up. Second, explain that you want the crunch to make your character functional in the game rather than 'be optimal'. Third, try convincing your DM on how much more interesting your tree samurai will make the game, even if it doesn't really fit the original idea for the game.

I'm going to start a thread about characters who are awakened Salix herbacea or other tiny trees. Maybe you'll be able to use it as a reference if you get the thumbs up!

[BWR]

And there's absolutely nothing whatsoever anywhere in the D&D rules to suggest that it's katana-only, or even sword-only. There's not even any rule you can interpret that way. Saying that it must be katana isn't RAI, it's a houserule.
Did you read what I said?
I said there was nothing RAW that said it was katana only. But, in light of the meaning of the word, the fact the skill was adapted from L5R where it is exclusively formal fuelling with katana, there really isn't a good reason to allow it to do anything but work in a duel with a sword.
If they wanted to have it work other ways, they should have given it a different name.

[Mr. Wongburger]

Doesn't seem too implausible to me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRH7HyipqtA).
Yeah, I've seen cats intimidate the **** out of things that should have nothing to fear from them... I'm definitely a cat-man :smallbiggrin:


I wish you luck in selling your GM you being a tree samurai. :)

My advice: first, try to think of ways to fluff it up. Second, explain that you want the crunch to make your character functional in the game rather than 'be optimal'. Third, try convincing your DM on how much more interesting your tree samurai will make the game, even if it doesn't really fit the original idea for the game.

I'm going to start a thread about characters who are awakened Salix herbacea or other tiny trees. Maybe you'll be able to use it as a reference if you get the thumbs up!
I got to thinking about how to explain the backstory and integrate a character like this and I totally went into Samurai Jack mode:

He was once a powerful Samurai attempting to stop an all-consuming evil from corrupting the world. Since he was strong enough not to fall in battle under ordinary means, he was cursed by stripping him of what made him strong (as a 20th level Samurai, he was reduced in level (not unlike energy drain), as a Medium creature he was reduced in size (not unlike a reduce person spell), and to ensure he would never regain the ability to threaten the evil power again, he was turned into a plant (not unlike the polymorph spell)).

This explains the reason for the plant as a race (to get tiny size), the reason for taking feats like Confound the Bigfolk and Underfoot Combat (I have to learn how to fight differently with this new size/body), why a character would start like this at level 1 (being reduced in level and essentially having to start over), and justifying why I'm using the Knight class and calling myself a Samurai (again, different fighting techniques due to the different size/body).

As for the Awakening, I'm still working on a sweet fluff aspect. Maybe a Druid kept sensing a powerful aura in his neck of the woods but could never find the sentient creature it belonged to. Or a certain plant kept catching his eye because it looked like nothing he'd ever encountered before.

All in all I'm super excited about the RP elements that are potentially threaded throughout the entire play-through of this character. For instance, the characters could have no idea what I am (my armor/clothing obscures my physical features; plus, I'm Tiny), but little things keep calling my origins into question:
- During one battle a rogue gets the jump on me and sneak attacks... to no effect (plants are immune to SA).
- During another battle a Monk charges up his Stunning Fist... to no effect (plants are immune to being stunned).
- During yet another battle I display incredible resilience when faced with a caster using poison or mind-affecting spells (immune to both :smallwink:).
They never see me remove my armor; maybe I never speak (because I can't?) and that continually keeps getting brought up; maybe during an intense battle my wounds start to show (green blood? plant material showing through battle damaged armor?).

I'm pretty freakin' excited about this. I've still got the whole cat-samurai bit that I'm working on as a backup in case the Tiny tree doesn't go over like I'm hoping it will. I'm meeting with the DM today and I should be able to let you know how he feels about it later or possibly tomorrow at the latest.

I want to thank everyone again for the contributions they made to igniting my imagination for this character. Especially you Zovc; the Awakened Ash of Annihilation (WIP) is 100% due to your help. :belkar:

[Zovc]

I am proud of my work! :smallbiggrin: