Wizard School Question

[ZamielVanWeber]

I know that conjuration and transmutation and generally regarded as the most powerful schools, but I am wondering, if I gave one wizard only those schools, and the other all hut those schools, who would win out?

[Waker]

You're asking who would win: A wizard with access to only either Conjuration or Transmutation vs. a wizard with everything but Conjuration and Transmutation? Are you talking like an arena style-battle or more of an adventure type battle where they can take the time to plan and scheme?

In either situation I would give the victory to the second wizard. Even if Conjuration and Transmutation are great, the other schools definitely have their benefits. Divination grants you information and some defensive bonuses, Abjuration can provide defenses against a lot of what you can throw at them, Enchantment/Illusion become dangerous if you have no defenses like Mind Blank or True Seeing, Necromancy has some serious debuffs like enervation and with the right choice of metamagics a wizard can put Evocation to good use.

Conjurers and Transmuters are great because they also have stuff like divination and abjuration to fill in the few gaps they have.

[Story]

Well the battle mostly depends on who goes first. Which is hard to say. Wizard A gets the Celerity line, but no Foresight. On the other hand, he can shapechange into a Dire Tortoise or something. But Wizard B gets a contigency.

I'd say Wizard B probably wins. But it depends mostly on the conditions.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

At higher levels, conjuration spells aren't as powerful as transmutation; just a note.
Plus, the illusionist can make usage of things like shadow conjuration, and thus expands his power pretty well.
Finally, while the other wizard gains things like shapechange and whatnot, the wizard B has divinations and scry-dies, necromantic effects to try and do things like clones and backup carbon copies.
Yet, Wizard A gains Genesis and Time Stop, meaning that the wizard could easily escape. Celerity gives him/her a huge advantage (one that the illusionist couldn't duplicate easily). So... depends on optimization and preparedness.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorry for being unclear. I meant a wizard with Conjuration AND Transmutation vs one with everything else. Equal optimization. Let us say, squaring off on the (large) field of honor.

[ahenobarbi]

What level? Are PrCs allowed?

[ArcturusV]

I'd give it to Wizard B myself. Note that a lot of the standard Defensive stuff that "just shuts down" otherwise subpar tactics is not available to Wizard A. Mind Blank, True Seeing, Foresight as mentioned, etc. Wizard B also has the advantage of Divination (He wouldn't be there unless he knew he could win).

I mean yeah, people don't have respect for stuff like Illusions and Enchantment. But when you don't actually have the defenses against them available to you (As per this scenario), suddenly you're in danger of getting Mindraped, swinging at Ghosts, etc.

[Courier6]

At level 20 a wizard with just Transmutation (let's say "Transmutationist") wins over a wizard with Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, and Necromancy (let's say "generalist"). The Transmutationist can use Time Stop then Shapechange to turn into a black ethergaunt, at that point he can cast from every school, and he can regain all his spells every round and decide to customize his entire prepared spell list. The Transmutationist will always go first in this situation because he has access to the Celerity line of spells. In a different situation, or at a different level an argument can be made for the generalist, the power of the Divination school is undeniable and the Transmutationist won't have access to anti-divination spells. But spells like Scrying are useless in this situation.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Of course, if you go the other direction and make the battle take place at 1st level, then the generalist has Magic Missile, Color Spray, Vanish (for invisibility), True Strike, and Ray of Enfeeblement. The specialist can cast Summon Monster I, Grease, and Enlarge Person. Unless the specialist was specifically built for the encounter (18 STR and enlarge person), I'd put my money on the generalist.

[Courier6]

Of course, if you go the other direction and make the battle take place at 1st level, then the generalist has Magic Missile, Color Spray, Vanish (for invisibility), True Strike, and Ray of Enfeeblement. The specialist can cast Summon Monster I, Grease, and Enlarge Person. Unless the specialist was specifically built for the encounter (18 STR and enlarge person), I'd put my money on the generalist.
Indeed, at level 1 the generalist also has Power Word: Pain which is a near guaranteed kill. But at level 1 combat is short and the specialist has access to nerveskitter, the problem is can the specialist kill the generalist in one round? probably with summon monster, but far less consistently than the generalist can kill the specialist. Both have a chance but the generalist is looking like a better bet.

[ben-zayb]

At L1, I'd actually go with the Conjurer/Trasmuter simply because a Conjurer may get:

Nerveskitter
Abrupt Jaunt ACF
Cloudy Conjuration Feat
Acid Splash Spell + Fell Drain Feat + Metamagic Reducer combo

And we all know that at L1, Fell Drained Acid Splash > Power Word: Pain / Magic Missile / Ray of Enfeeblement

At L17+, I'd go with the Conjurer/Transmuter by virtue of having access to Shapechange and Gate (not to mention Time Stop, etc.) alone. I mean, that amount of versatility with just those two would be enough to negate some of the schools/subschools.

In combat (IMHO): Foresight won't matter much for initiative due to not having the Celerity line; Contingency would be less effective without Teleportation spells; Scry and Die just means there would be no combat at all (I actually don't get where the Die part would now be, as you couldn't just Port in safely sans Shades and dish damage); MDJ might gib Shapechange but it'd be very hard to

[137beth]

At level 20 a wizard with just Transmutation (let's say "Transmutationist") wins over a wizard with Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, and Necromancy (let's say "generalist"). The Transmutationist can use Time Stop then Shapechange to turn into a black ethergaunt, at that point he can cast from every school, and he can regain all his spells every round and decide to customize his entire prepared spell list. The Transmutationist will always go first in this situation because he has access to the Celerity line of spells. In a different situation, or at a different level an argument can be made for the generalist, the power of the Divination school is undeniable and the Transmutationist won't have access to anti-divination spells. But spells like Scrying are useless in this situation.

But what if the level 20 generalist wins initiative? Then it would be reversed.

[ben-zayb]

But what if the level 20 generalist wins initiative? Then it would be reversed.

That is, unless Shapechange is already extended at CL21 (7 hours). In that case, the Transmuter WILL always go first, by virtue of Celerity and Dire Tortoise.

Of course, all of that becomes moot because that generalist is just an Astral Projection of the real one. Scry tactics will get through assuming the Transmuter has no mind-blank and other abjuration effects (are there any Su mind blanks anywhere?). All the while, the Generalist makes an Ice Assassin of the Transmuter in a safe place guarded by abjuration, illusion, and divination magic.

That's when you'll realize that the Conjurer, already gated in obnoxious creatures that gets whole spell lists (like a Solar, or that titan thingy) and they practically will be able to use the same tactic as the Generalist, plus being able to access Transmutation and Conjuration tricks.

[Jeff the Green]

That's when you'll realize that the Conjurer, already gated in obnoxious creatures that gets whole spell lists (like a Solar, or that titan thingy) and they practically will be able to use the same tactic as the Generalist, plus being able to access Transmutation and Conjuration tricks.

And then you realize that the Generalist has mindraped many of those same creatures and raised the rest as undead. It's kind of a wash.

[Story]

I mean yeah, people don't have respect for stuff like Illusions and Enchantment. But when you don't actually have the defenses against them available to you (As per this scenario), suddenly you're in danger of getting Mindraped, swinging at Ghosts, etc.

There are plenty of other ways to get those immunities. Necropolitan is my favorite. Though unfortunately, that gives you other weaknesses that a prepared wizard can exploit. Permanent True Seeing can be gotten via item for around 76k IIRC.