Gestalt - One Handed Weapon User

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm looking at making a character who specializes in using a one-handed weapon.

I want to use the term Duelist but that's also the name of a Prestige Class, one I have been warned to avoid like the plague.

Any Wizards of the Coasts book (Except Tome of Battle Classes) + University Feat is allowed to be used.

Character is starting at level 8, ability scores not rolled yet.

Essentially I'm looking for a concept that fits the following:

1. One handed weapon user (Obviously, as title says) who can more than handle himself in the thick of melee combat.

2. Non-magical, magic items are still up for use but no spell casting. This character is meant to be Martial, using his own skills and abilities to get through.

3. Light or no Armor, I want him to be fast and quick. Not being restricted in speed by low armour.

4. Quick and Agile (Hence the Light or no Armor), the character is fast, he moves on his feat, he can dodge blows, hit an opponent accurately and is probably skilled in things like acrobatics and knife throwing as well.

5. Skilled, I want this person to be knowledgeable and have a wide array of skills under his control

6. Charismatic, charming, good with words, someone who people are both naturally drawn too and can do well with sweet talking and finding someone in a bar if he ever feels like it.

Now, Mechanic wise I'm thinking some core things are needed to make this work... if not please say so but I would assume I would at least need...

Important Ability Scores: Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma
BAB: High
Saving Throws: Reflex High (A high will would be nice too, represent his strong willed and his own man. Fortitude would be the most useful knowing what my DM is planning, but concept wise Fortitude would be the least important.
Skill Points: Minimum 6 + Int Modifier per level

[Jon Everyman]

Theme-wise, a mix of rogue and warblade would cover everything you listed almost perfectly. It has nothing to optimize using a 1-hander as you were planning to, however.

[Maginomicon]

I'm looking at making a character who specializes in using a one-handed weapon.The "generic expert (www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)" class would work, but there's also a "fencer" fighter variant (Dragon Magazine #310 page 35) that could accomplish what you want.

The swashbuckler class (Complete Warrior page 11) could also work. Personally though I'd go with the generic expert.

[Zaklito]

I want to recommend Swordsage. There is a feat that lets you add your dexterity to weapon damage that requires one Shadow Hand maneuver to take which will help in the damage department. It's Wisdom instead of Int or Cha based, but it's still nice if you ask me, especially if you're gestalting.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Theme-wise, a mix of rogue and warblade would cover everything you listed almost perfectly. It has nothing to optimize using a 1-hander as you were planning to, however.

I am heavily considering going Martial Rogue for the skill points and the feats would cover me combat wise so I can focus my second class almost purely on being full BAB.

Though you mentioned warblade reminded me, Tome of Battles classes were denied, I'm going to need to update the 1st post with that.


The "generic expert (www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)" class would work, but there's also a "fencer" fighter variant (Dragon Magazine #310 page 35) that could accomplish what you want.

The swashbuckler class (Complete Warrior page 11) could also work. Personally though I'd go with the generic expert.

I need to point the DM to a manual for Generic Warrior or it won't pass.
I know it's not the one from the DMG too, I remember looking at the noticing how much weaker the DMG one was.

Swashbuckler looks cool but seems to lose it's appeal at the early levels.
Gaining most of the good stuff early, but that does open it to multi-classing.

Fencer Fighter, I might be missing something but I found nothing in it that related to one handed weapons. Also the abilities it can learn look kind of sub-par.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I want to recommend Swordsage. There is a feat that lets you add your dexterity to weapon damage that requires one Shadow Hand maneuver to take which will help in the damage department. It's Wisdom instead of Int or Cha based, but it's still nice if you ask me, especially if you're gestalting.

Sadly the post above reminded me that ToB classes aren't approved so that wouldn't work.

[Maginomicon]

I need to point the DM to a manual for Generic Warrior or it won't pass.
I know it's not the one from the DMG too, I remember looking at the noticing how much weaker the DMG one was.The generic expert is in Unearthed Arcana page 77.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The generic expert is in Unearthed Arcana page 77.

Thanks.

Looking over some classes now I'm a bit torn on what to do for each side.

I already know for this concept to work I need a combat side and a skill side though.

For the Combat Side I'm Considering: Generic Warrior 2/Swashbuckler 3/XX 1/ Duelist 2

For the Skill Side I'm debating between Rogue, Expert and Scout

-Expert gives the extra saving throw and feat flexibility, I would also say class skills but Rogue covers almost all of them already.

-Rogue: 8 + Int instead of 6. Plus he comes with evasion and uncanny dodges, and either sneak attacks (watch the flanking damage stack) or I can go the Martial Rogue variant for more combat feats.

-Scout: 8 + Int as well. Like Rogue but a bit more in the open and extra flexibility with moving around. But granted that doesn't really match with a dueling sort of concept.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The generic classes from UA are designed for use independent of any other base classes. They are only valid for use if the entire game is using generic classes exclusively, you cannot combine them with any other base classes.

Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), originally from UA, would probably be quite fitting. I'd go something like Feat Rogue 8+// Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 4/ Swashbuckler 4+, with both Daring Outlaw and Daring Warrior (CS). You can get Weapon Focus/Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, and eventually Weapon Supremacy (PH2), and you'll also get the full sneak attack progression.

It's better off with TWF, but you can go one-handed and armor spikes and still use a shield or keep your offhand empty. Just be sure your primary weapon is piercing so the armor spikes benefit from Melee Weapon Mastery, otherwise use a slashing weapon with armor razors from Underdark (mechanically identical to armor spikes in every way, but slashing). If you want to keep your offhand mostly empty, keep a hand crossbow loaded with a poisoned bolt to pull out when an underhanded move is necessary.

If you want to keep your offhand empty most of the time, keep plenty of useful things on hand to use it for. Tanglefoot Bags and splash weapons, the above hand crossbow, Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101), a Robe of Useful Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofUsefulItems), etc. Get a Belt of Hidden Pouches (MIC) to hold extras of the more useful items from Shax's Haversack would be handy.

[DMVerdandi]

I would take Factotum 20/Generic Warrior 20

All skills, high skill points, awesome factotum class features, and a better version of the fighter all in a package.

Perhaps instead of going straight warrior, you could fill up the fighting side with some decent Prestige classes. Dervish kicks some REAL butt, and really seems to be what you are looking for.

You can take it by level 6, so just get all the pre-requisites with the bonus feats you get.

So with dervish it would be
1-5 factotum/warrior
6-16 factotum/dervish
17-20 factotum warrior

[DMVerdandi]

The generic classes from UA are designed for use independent of any other base classes. They are only valid for use if the entire game is using generic classes exclusively, you cannot combine them with any other base classes.

It's a guideline, not a hard and fast rule.
They are rule variants in the first place. They are still weaker than tier 1 classes, so it can really be thrown out anyway.
A cleric/druid/wiz/archivist/erudite/artificer will EASILY destroy every single one in single combat. That rule is baseless.



Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), originally from UA, would probably be quite fitting. I'd go something like Feat Rogue 8+// Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 4/ Swashbuckler 4+, with both Daring Outlaw and Daring Warrior (CS). You can get Weapon Focus/Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, and eventually Weapon Supremacy (PH2), and you'll also get the full sneak attack progression.
Speaking of things WOTC ban, you can't use feats that advance two classes abilities in gestalt.
Daring outlaw would normally be banned.
In the scheme of things, it would be more unbalanced to do what you are asking than using generic classes.

Sorry about the double post.

[Baron Malkar]

It is a little different but rather fun.

Fighter 10/Soulbow 10//Soulknife 20.

Specialize heavily in your mindblade and spend all of your money rounding yourself out. you end up with a epic weapon at will and can never be disarmed. Heck the soul bow is a one handed ranged weapon with Wis to damage allowing for a lot of SAD.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm getting a lot of suggestions here that mixes well with Intelligence and Dexterity but is there is much for Charisma to work with it too or am I out of luck?


The generic classes from UA are designed for use independent of any other base classes. They are only valid for use if the entire game is using generic classes exclusively, you cannot combine them with any other base classes.

Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), originally from UA, would probably be quite fitting. I'd go something like Feat Rogue 8+// Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 4/ Swashbuckler 4+, with both Daring Outlaw and Daring Warrior (CS). You can get Weapon Focus/Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, and eventually Weapon Supremacy (PH2), and you'll also get the full sneak attack progression.

It's better off with TWF, but you can go one-handed and armor spikes and still use a shield or keep your offhand empty. Just be sure your primary weapon is piercing so the armor spikes benefit from Melee Weapon Mastery, otherwise use a slashing weapon with armor razors from Underdark (mechanically identical to armor spikes in every way, but slashing). If you want to keep your offhand mostly empty, keep a hand crossbow loaded with a poisoned bolt to pull out when an underhanded move is necessary.

If you want to keep your offhand empty most of the time, keep plenty of useful things on hand to use it for. Tanglefoot Bags and splash weapons, the above hand crossbow, Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101), a Robe of Useful Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofUsefulItems), etc. Get a Belt of Hidden Pouches (MIC) to hold extras of the more useful items from Shax's Haversack would be handy.

Exactly what is it about Swashbuckler past level 3 that's so useful? Other than minor dodge AC and reflex boosts?
I honestly find very little with that class after level 3.

Daring Outlaw & Warrior though, they scale with the Rogues sneak attack and the Fighters feats, but I don't see them interchanging. If sneak attack is from fighter I would imagine it would be restricted to the 4 levels.

So really that leaves me with some boosts from Swashbuckler but that's it.
Also why would I need both of the feats? Most of their benefits are the same and if rogue is all the through I have no reason really to take Daring Outlaw.

For the one-handed combat idea, it's less that I want to mechanically be one-handed but my character concept is mostly one handed. Maybe will pull out some tricks with his spare hand once in a while, but if he's dueling someone honourably then he's using his blade and that alone.

Lastly, I'm not so familliar with armor spikes so I have to ask what is it about them that makes you suggest them so much?


I would take Factotum 20/Generic Warrior 20

All skills, high skill points, awesome factotum class features, and a better version of the fighter all in a package.

Perhaps instead of going straight warrior, you could fill up the fighting side with some decent Prestige classes. Dervish kicks some REAL butt, and really seems to be what you are looking for.

You can take it by level 6, so just get all the pre-requisites with the bonus feats you get.

So with dervish it would be
1-5 factotum/warrior
6-16 factotum/dervish
17-20 factotum warrior

I've looked at Factotum before, two main issues I have with the class are

1. Magic.
Typically this isn't so bad, but for a martial character concept I'm trying to steer clear of this.

2. Not truly skilled.
You get mostly one time per day buffs to skills. My person for many skills isn't constantly good with them.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It is a little different but rather fun.

Fighter 10/Soulbow 10//Soulknife 20.

Specialize heavily in your mindblade and spend all of your money rounding yourself out. you end up with a epic weapon at will and can never be disarmed. Heck the soul bow is a one handed ranged weapon with Wis to damage allowing for a lot of SAD.

Interesting.

Though I'm aiming more sword wielder than archer.

Also, the weapon at will would go against the whole Martial idea.

[Baron Malkar]

Interesting.

Though I'm aiming more sword wielder than archer.

Also, the weapon at will would go against the whole Martial idea.

Mostly you end up being a YuYu Hakusho character. it is fairly martial seeing as your blade is the only magic thing about the character.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Some other questions I gathered about some of the different classes...

1. For Rogue, there is a variant that lets me replace trap finding with poison use. But it's in the drow book meant for drow rogues. Now I'm not planning on being a Drow so the DM said I can't take that alternate feature.

Is there another way I can possibly get rid of trap finding for Poison Use?

Note: Already plan to replace trap sense with penetration strike

2. Any Fighter variants that give up heavy armor proficiency for something without sacrificing any bonus feats as well?

I know I can just go Warrior, but the point brought above about not being useable with other classes has me worried there's a chance the DM will enforce that. Being a very by the book, rarely making house rules/exceptions to things unless if it's accomidate for something he's making for his world.

Note: Before anyone tries to suggest I point out a number of balance things to him, it won't work... He doesn't know d&d well enough to recognise what's broken and what's not half the time. He is currently still claiming that moving 40 feet per turn in heavy armor is completely broken and how that feature alone makes an OP character...

3. Duelist looks like a class that can compliment my build well of being a one handed fighter who works with a high intelligence. Problem is the feat pre-requisites like dodge and mobility which I personally don't find to be too useful.

Are there alternate feats I can get that fufill these same requirements? If not are there certain ways I can make dodge and mobility work well for me?


Mostly you end up being a YuYu Hakusho character. it is fairly martial seeing as your blade is the only magic thing about the character.

True, not sure if that's the concept I'm going for though.

[Jon Everyman]

You could try some combination of scout and paladin with the ACF's that give up spellcasting for a few feats and the charging smite instead of a mount.

Edit: I forgot the feats are from it's own list, and not fighters, so it wouldn't help with duelist at all.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You could try some combination of scout and paladin with the ACF's that give up spellcasting for a few feats and the charging smite instead of a mount.

Edit: I forgot the feats are from it's own list, and not fighters, so it wouldn't help with duelist at all.

That gave me an interesting idea.

I looked at the Paladin variant, with my swashbuckler plans and the fact I don't really like much of what Paladin offers after level 2, I'm thinking instead of Warrior/Fighter levels for the first 2 I'll make them Paladin.

That gives me divine grace which gives me a use for Charisma.
How does that sound?

I'm also thinking I can't get Swashbuckler till level 6.
Playing as a human that gives me 3 feats without flaws (Human, Level 1 and 3) to get dodge, mobility and weapon finesse.

Though, I will be looking for some paladin variants to rid of stuff like the alignment restriction, smiting, lay on hands and aura if possible.

[Demidos]

Impressive cant believe im the first to suggest bard. With words of creation and snowflake wardance, along with perhaps dragonfire inspiration and slippers of battle dancing, youre pretty much good to go. Though it sure would be handy to get a level of cleric for travel devotion.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Impressive cant believe im the first to suggest bard. With words of creation and snowflake wardance, along with perhaps dragonfire inspiration and slippers of battle dancing, youre pretty much good to go. Though it sure would be handy to get a level of cleric for travel devotion.

I myself was wondering how long it would take for this to be suggested.
My issue with Bard is the whole singing concept.

I don't like him singing in the middle of combat.

Plus there's another group I might be a Bard in where we already found a way around the singing thing and I'd rather not be a Bard is two seperate campaigns at the same time.

[Jon Everyman]

I personally didn't suggest it because you'd have to homebrew a spell-less bard since I don't think I've ever seen one in a book. I'm currently playing a bardsader in a campaign and it fits his concept super well, but the rules say no spellcasts.

[DMVerdandi]

Some other questions I gathered about some of the different classes...

1. For Rogue, there is a variant that lets me replace trap finding with poison use. But it's in the drow book meant for drow rogues. Now I'm not planning on being a Drow so the DM said I can't take that alternate feature.

Is there another way I can possibly get rid of trap finding for Poison Use?

Note: Already plan to replace trap sense with penetration strike

2. Any Fighter variants that give up heavy armor proficiency for something without sacrificing any bonus feats as well?

I know I can just go Warrior, but the point brought above about not being useable with other classes has me worried there's a chance the DM will enforce that. Being a very by the book, rarely making house rules/exceptions to things unless if it's accomidate for something he's making for his world.

Note: Before anyone tries to suggest I point out a number of balance things to him, it won't work... He doesn't know d&d well enough to recognise what's broken and what's not half the time. He is currently still claiming that moving 40 feet per turn in heavy armor is completely broken and how that feature alone makes an OP character...

3. Duelist looks like a class that can compliment my build well of being a one handed fighter who works with a high intelligence. Problem is the feat pre-requisites like dodge and mobility which I personally don't find to be too useful.

Are there alternate feats I can get that fufill these same requirements? If not are there certain ways I can make dodge and mobility work well for me?



True, not sure if that's the concept I'm going for though.

Well since you said you didn't want Factotum,then as it was said earlier, Feat rogue might be up your alley.

Feat rogue/Fighter 5
Feat rogue/ Dervish 15
Feat Rogue/ Fighter 20

You will get a CRAP TON of feats, which is good, because it will give you more than enough ways to fight. You get full BAB and just a crap ton of fighter feats.

Look at D/N/D tools to research all the feats you might want.

Now that you will have something like 20 extra bonus feats, those pre-requisites for dervish shouldn't be that bad.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well since you said you didn't want Factotum,then as it was said earlier, Feat rogue might be up your alley.

Feat rogue/Fighter 5
Feat rogue/ Dervish 15
Feat Rogue/ Fighter 20

You will get a CRAP TON of feats, which is good, because it will give you more than enough ways to fight. You get full BAB and just a crap ton of fighter feats.

Look at D/N/D tools to research all the feats you might want.

Now that you will have something like 20 extra bonus feats, those pre-requisites for dervish shouldn't be that bad.

I already toyed with a Warforged character under this feats ahoy idea.
I found I ran out of feats very quickly.

And still there's little to work with one handed fighting, or a high Intelligence and Charisma.

I did look at Dervish though, I'm thinking I may be missing something though because I didn't see anything that good about it.

[DMVerdandi]

I already toyed with a Warforged character under this feats ahoy idea.
I found I ran out of feats very quickly.

And still there's little to work with one handed fighting, or a high Intelligence and Charisma.

I did look at Dervish though, I'm thinking I may be missing something though because I didn't see anything that good about it.

Well, Melee sucks in 3.5 remember?:smallamused:
Personally I would NEVER actually play a straight up melee character without TOB in this game, but it's what you asked for right? Most of it is underwhelming ESPECIALLY without any magic stuff.

Dervish nets you
Unarmed AC bonus Small, but you can't get it through fighter feats.
Dervish dance Whirling frenzy but weaker.
Movement mastery jump tumble balance take 10 at all times. Not bad but not great.
Slashing Blades Actually kind of awesome. If you had two hands it would be INSANELY GOOD.
Fast Movement Excellent
Spring Attack It is good with dervish dance.
Dance of death Free cleave. Good because of how dervish dance works
Improved reactionMore Initiative is always good
Elaborate Parry I don't know about fighting defensively all that much... Good if you already have been using combat expertise.
Tireless dance Alright
A thousand cuts Better than any non-tob character can do. Double attacks.

As far as Non-prc classes go, it gives quite a bit. Most of them suck horribly.

Now, honestly, if you don't mind the limitations, Barbarian is really good to have in a gestalt. Feat rogue/Barbarian is a beast. Especially if you use the spirit lion totem, and one of the rage variants.
But that isn't going to get you a really awesome combat style. You are going to be power attacking all day erry day. Unless you are grappling, bull rushing, charging, tripping,ect. And really you can only specialize in one of those.


And that shows you exactly the limitations with not using tob. The fighter feats are too scattered, require too many pre-requisites and are overly complicated for very weak effects.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Exactly what is it about Swashbuckler past level 3 that's so useful? Other than minor dodge AC and reflex boosts?
I honestly find very little with that class after level 3.

Daring Outlaw & Warrior though, they scale with the Rogues sneak attack and the Fighters feats, but I don't see them interchanging. If sneak attack is from fighter I would imagine it would be restricted to the 4 levels.

So really that leaves me with some boosts from Swashbuckler but that's it.
Also why would I need both of the feats? Most of their benefits are the same and if rogue is all the through I have no reason really to take Daring Outlaw.

For the one-handed combat idea, it's less that I want to mechanically be one-handed but my character concept is mostly one handed. Maybe will pull out some tricks with his spare hand once in a while, but if he's dueling someone honourably then he's using his blade and that alone.

Lastly, I'm not so familliar with armor spikes so I have to ask what is it about them that makes you suggest them so much?

With Daring Outlaw + Warrior, your Swashbuckler levels grant sneak attack and also add to your Fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for Fighter-only feats. That means each level of Feat Rogue//Swashbuckler is effectively a level in Rogue (class features from Rogue, sneak attack from Swashbuckler), a level in Fighter (bonus feats from Rogue, effective fighter level from Swashbuckler), and a level in Swashbuckler (class features from Swashbuckler). By spending two feats and taking four Fighter levels early on, it pretty much turns the character into a Rogue//Fighter//Swashbuckler tristalt.

Armor Spikes are one of the best weapons in the game. You can TWF and make your offhand attacks with armor spikes, even if your primary attacks are made with a two-handed weapon. You'll never be caught unarmed, they're useful grappling and swallowed whole, you still threaten adjacent squares when using a reach weapon, they can be +5 Defending and give you AC even if you're not attacking with them, etc.

[ksbsnowowl]

Note, I didn't read through the whole thread, so this might have been covered already.

I statted these up for my teens-level gestalt game. Haven't seen them in use yet, but I think they should work out quite well.

Human Barb 1/Fighter 4/Dervish 10//Rogue 15
1. Barb//Rog Combat Expertise, Dodge
2. Fighter//Rog Weapon Finesse*
3. Fighter//Rog Weapon Focus (Scimitar)*, Telling Blow
4. Fighter//Rog
5. Fighter//Rog Mobility*
6. Dervish//Rog Einhander
7. Dervish//Rog
8. Dervish//Rog Spring Attack*
9. Dervish//Rog Improved Critical (Scimitar)
10. Dervish//Rog Special Ability [Combat Reflexes feat]
11. Dervish//Rog
12. Dervish//Rog Robilar's Gambit
13. Dervish//Rog Special Ability [Opportunist]
14. Dervish//Rog
15. Dervish//Rog Deft Opportunist

* Bonus feat from Fighter or Dervish

Although I know it isn't really a fantastic feat, the Einhander feat seems interesting for a Dervish. By 12th level (Dervish 7), a Dervish with Einhander could get +9 to AC for fighting defensively (-4 to attack). He could Combat Expertise on top of that, if needed. Einhander also gives you the ability to make a special feint attack as a free action, using sleight of hand instead of bluff. The Group Fakeout skill trick could find an interesting use here. (Note, I recall looking into this later, but I think it doesn't actually work, but you could run it by your DM).

See more here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6291.0

[DeusMortuusEst]

I myself was wondering how long it would take for this to be suggested.
My issue with Bard is the whole singing concept.

I don't like him singing in the middle of combat.

Plus there's another group I might be a Bard in where we already found a way around the singing thing and I'd rather not be a Bard is two seperate campaigns at the same time.

Then don't sing. Be a badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass) bard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBard) with ranks in Perform: One-liners (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneLiner).

Do it right and your party/friends will love you.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, Melee sucks in 3.5 remember?:smallamused:
Personally I would NEVER actually play a straight up melee character without TOB in this game, but it's what you asked for right? Most of it is underwhelming ESPECIALLY without any magic stuff.

Dervish nets you
Unarmed AC bonus Small, but you can't get it through fighter feats.
Dervish dance Whirling frenzy but weaker.
Movement mastery jump tumble balance take 10 at all times. Not bad but not great.
Slashing Blades Actually kind of awesome. If you had two hands it would be INSANELY GOOD.
Fast Movement Excellent
Spring Attack It is good with dervish dance.
Dance of death Free cleave. Good because of how dervish dance works
Improved reactionMore Initiative is always good
Elaborate Parry I don't know about fighting defensively all that much... Good if you already have been using combat expertise.
Tireless dance Alright
A thousand cuts Better than any non-tob character can do. Double attacks.

As far as Non-prc classes go, it gives quite a bit. Most of them suck horribly.

Now, honestly, if you don't mind the limitations, Barbarian is really good to have in a gestalt. Feat rogue/Barbarian is a beast. Especially if you use the spirit lion totem, and one of the rage variants.
But that isn't going to get you a really awesome combat style. You are going to be power attacking all day erry day. Unless you are grappling, bull rushing, charging, tripping,ect. And really you can only specialize in one of those.


And that shows you exactly the limitations with not using tob. The fighter feats are too scattered, require too many pre-requisites and are overly complicated for very weak effects.

I recognize it's not the most powerful kind of character, but it's still a concept I've always wanted to play us.

Also in this game the DM's reserved himself the right to turn down characters if deemed too powerful (sadly his sense of what's broken or not is questionable at best), so this campaign would be the best time to make a character made around a concept I've always liked rather than looking for a maximized melee master sort of build.

I do recognize Barbarian can be useful, but I'm not sure about getting Barbarian levels because it does nothing really for a one-handed duelist sort of concept and I dislike the rage abilities and how after exhausted you're weakened by them. Infact that gives my DM a license to prolong the battle just so I'm weaker.

Note: I can still use magic items, just not spells.

Looking at the Dervish, it seems interesting and I can see how it's powerful now by giving it another look.
Though firstly it seems depend heavily on moving around the battle a lot where I see my character doing one of two things normally in combat.

If he has engaged someone one in a honourable duel he will be having an upfront duel and not moving around like crazy.
Or if it's simply a bunch of goons or monsters he'll probably just be flanking them from behind (Sneak attack if I end up not going Martial rogue).

Though to be honest my main reasoning is that I'm debating/comparing it with the Duelist Class.

They both require Mobility and Dodge which aren't that great feats. But also means neither has an edge here.

Dervish also needs weapon focus and combat expertise while Duelist needs weapon finesse.
Duelist becomes slightly easier to get in this regard but again I give the edge to no one since they're all feats I'll need to pick up anyways.

Skill wise, they both need 3 ranks of perform. Dervish is just restricted to a certain type. Both also need Tumble but that will probably be a skill I would pick up anyways.

Dervish's main bonuses seems to be: The Dance, AC Bonus, +AC in Defensive Fighting, +Movement, +Initiative, High Reflex and Will
Duelists seems to be: +AC from Intelligence, +Initiative, +Reflex, +Damage with one handed weapon, +AC to fighting defensively (More than Dervish gains for fighting defensively), High Fortitude

So eliminating the similliarities we'll mostly left with:

Dervish: The Dance, +Movement, High Reflex and Will
Duelist: +Reflex, One handed damage, Slightly more defensive AC boost, High Fortitude

Note: With other class being Rogue I have high Reflex anyways.

This is where I am stuck in a debate. Both seems really good yet I can only pick one without sacrificing my Rogue Classes.
Where honestly, my only main concern over the Rogue Classes is Uncanny Dodges and the High Skill Points. Everything else I can live without.

So I found another way to get Uncanny Dodge and a good amount skill points I might end up just taking both.
Otherwise, I'm stuck at this issue above where both classes seem good but simply different in what they offer.

The DM never read over Gestalt himself so I doubt he's aware of the one Prestige only, besides with the magic ban it's a kind of buff the characters would need to survive.

Also on a side note since I'll need to take Perform ranks no matter which class I go.
Are there any good uses you can find for that in the concept I'm making or am I better off leaving it at 3 ranks and putting the rest into skill tricks and extra languages?


With Daring Outlaw + Warrior, your Swashbuckler levels grant sneak attack and also add to your Fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for Fighter-only feats. That means each level of Feat Rogue//Swashbuckler is effectively a level in Rogue (class features from Rogue, sneak attack from Swashbuckler), a level in Fighter (bonus feats from Rogue, effective fighter level from Swashbuckler), and a level in Swashbuckler (class features from Swashbuckler). By spending two feats and taking four Fighter levels early on, it pretty much turns the character into a Rogue//Fighter//Swashbuckler tristalt.

Armor Spikes are one of the best weapons in the game. You can TWF and make your offhand attacks with armor spikes, even if your primary attacks are made with a two-handed weapon. You'll never be caught unarmed, they're useful grappling and swallowed whole, you still threaten adjacent squares when using a reach weapon, they can be +5 Defending and give you AC even if you're not attacking with them, etc.

I can what you mean now.
But honestly it's loose interpretation.
I can imagine the DM easily ruling 'The sneak attack is meant to be rogue and the feats meant to be fighter, by switching them that means its not coming from the feats expected class so you simply don't gain them from the feats'.

Also I find this depends on me going full out Swashbuckler. I found looking at that class it really has nothing after level 3 I'm even interested in.

For armor spikes, wouldn't I need the two-weapon fighting feats to make much use of them though attack wise?
Also when you say +5 Defending do you mean seperate from enchanting armor so both can be enchanted seperately?


Note, I didn't read through the whole thread, so this might have been covered already.

I statted these up for my teens-level gestalt game. Haven't seen them in use yet, but I think they should work out quite well.

Human Barb 1/Fighter 4/Dervish 10//Rogue 15
1. Barb//Rog Combat Expertise, Dodge
2. Fighter//Rog Weapon Finesse*
3. Fighter//Rog Weapon Focus (Scimitar)*, Telling Blow
4. Fighter//Rog
5. Fighter//Rog Mobility*
6. Dervish//Rog Einhander
7. Dervish//Rog
8. Dervish//Rog Spring Attack*
9. Dervish//Rog Improved Critical (Scimitar)
10. Dervish//Rog Special Ability [Combat Reflexes feat]
11. Dervish//Rog
12. Dervish//Rog Robilar's Gambit
13. Dervish//Rog Special Ability [Opportunist]
14. Dervish//Rog
15. Dervish//Rog Deft Opportunist

* Bonus feat from Fighter or Dervish

Although I know it isn't really a fantastic feat, the Einhander feat seems interesting for a Dervish. By 12th level (Dervish 7), a Dervish with Einhander could get +9 to AC for fighting defensively (-4 to attack). He could Combat Expertise on top of that, if needed. Einhander also gives you the ability to make a special feint attack as a free action, using sleight of hand instead of bluff. The Group Fakeout skill trick could find an interesting use here. (Note, I recall looking into this later, but I think it doesn't actually work, but you could run it by your DM).

See more here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6291.0

Dervish was suggested a few posts before and my response to it was a long one. Just read my response to the first quote on this post to see what I said in response to it.


Then don't sing. Be a badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass) bard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBard) with ranks in Perform: One-liners (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneLiner).

Do it right and your party/friends will love you.

Bard says it was to be based on music, one-liners isn't music.
Also I'm not that good at one liners, I would fall flat on my face.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is a feat (Master of Poisons) that is better than the Poison use class feature, since it let's you apply poisons as a swift actions instead of a standard action AND you can't poison yourself when doing so.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There is a feat (Master of Poisons) that is better than the Poison use class feature, since it let's you apply poisons as a swift actions instead of a standard action AND you can't poison yourself when doing so.

True, not really worth a feat to me though atm.
It was more looking for something replace the rogues trap finding and trap sense features.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Trapfinding I don't remember anything off-hand; but in dungeonscape you can trade Trap-sense for Penetrating strike t deal half-sneak attack damage to SA immune enemies if you are flanking them.

You could go Feat rogue 8//Swashbuckler 3/SA fighter 5 for a start.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Trapfinding I don't remember anything off-hand; but in dungeonscape you can trade Trap-sense for Penetrating strike t deal half-sneak attack damage to SA immune enemies if you are flanking them.

You could go Feat rogue 8//Swashbuckler 3/SA fighter 5 for a start.

A Marital Rogue/Sneak Attack Fighter & Swashbuckler mix with two feats is being suggested already and I pointed out how that mix the DM can easily interpret another way.

As for Penetrating Strike, I already did look at up for I seem to of forgotten to mention that here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I can what you mean now.
But honestly it's loose interpretation.
I can imagine the DM easily ruling 'The sneak attack is meant to be rogue and the feats meant to be fighter, by switching them that means its not coming from the feats expected class so you simply don't gain them from the feats'.

Also I find this depends on me going full out Swashbuckler. I found looking at that class it really has nothing after level 3 I'm even interested in.

For armor spikes, wouldn't I need the two-weapon fighting feats to make much use of them though attack wise?
Also when you say +5 Defending do you mean seperate from enchanting armor so both can be enchanted seperately?

Daring Outlaw adds your Swashbuckler and Rogue levels (if any) for determining your sneak attack damage, this is of course referring to the core Rogue and not the version you've taken levels in. That mean Rogue 0 + Swashbuckler X for sneak attack. Other classes that grant sneak attack do so independent of this feat. The only thing you may run into is the rules on multiple classes granting the same class feature, but in this case you're not taking two classes that grant sneak attack at the same level. If you want to go with a strict RAW interpretation of Daring Outlaw, it actually causes your Feat Rogue levels to grant sneak attack dice in addition to the bonus feats you originally traded it out for.

It is a bit of a gimmick build, you could easily go Feat Rogue 20// Swashbuckler 3/ whatever 17 and be fine. If you're not using fractional BAB then you don't even need to take full BAB classes as long as you stagger the levels properly. You could use Factotum for those 17 levels, or a mix of Factotum and Chameleon, etc.

Yes, you need the TWF feats to effectively use offhand attacks, even with armor spikes. Yes, armor spikes are a weapon and they get enchanted like a weapon, in addition to whatever enchantments the armor itself gets. The same goes for shield spikes. You can also wear two gauntlets and enchant both of those. Then there's a bunch of silly put-a-blade-on-all-the-things weapons in Arms and Equipment Guide, blades that stick out of your boots and held in your mouth and hang from your hair, etc.

[Randomguy]

The Generic Warrior/Expert that everyone's referring to is in Unearthed Arcana.

Here's what I came up with:

Factotum 20 // Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Swordsage 1/Warblade 2/Duelist 10/Warblade 2.

Take the Carmendine Monk feat from Champions of Valor, weapon finesse and Shadow Blade. This means you get Int to AC, dex to hit, dex to damage and Int to damage. At higher levels you'll get Int to AC again from Factotum, as well as Canny Defence from Duelist, and you can add your Int to either attack or damage by spending inspiration points.

Be a Cobra Style variant monk, from Unearthed Arcana. This gives you Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, to qualify for duelist.
Since you've already got Dodge and Mobility you'll want to pick up the Elusive Target feat from CW. It lets you be immune to power attack, as well as 2 other benefits, both of which fit the character's theme.

You should probably look up some Factotum handbooks.

Charisma is probably your 4th most important skill, after intelligence, dexterity and constitution. It's useful for loads of social skills as well as UMD and Iajitsu Focus.

This fits almost all of your criteria, with one exception: You do have access to a few spells. They aren't really integral to the build, though, so you can feel free never to cast them at all.

[3WhiteFox3]

A good option for your weapon can be found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11763.20); it's cheap, can use the Morphing property to become any one-handed light melee weapon and can be easily enchanted.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Daring Outlaw adds your Swashbuckler and Rogue levels (if any) for determining your sneak attack damage, this is of course referring to the core Rogue and not the version you've taken levels in. That mean Rogue 0 + Swashbuckler X for sneak attack. Other classes that grant sneak attack do so independent of this feat. The only thing you may run into is the rules on multiple classes granting the same class feature, but in this case you're not taking two classes that grant sneak attack at the same level. If you want to go with a strict RAW interpretation of Daring Outlaw, it actually causes your Feat Rogue levels to grant sneak attack dice in addition to the bonus feats you originally traded it out for.

It is a bit of a gimmick build, you could easily go Feat Rogue 20// Swashbuckler 3/ whatever 17 and be fine. If you're not using fractional BAB then you don't even need to take full BAB classes as long as you stagger the levels properly. You could use Factotum for those 17 levels, or a mix of Factotum and Chameleon, etc.

Yes, you need the TWF feats to effectively use offhand attacks, even with armor spikes. Yes, armor spikes are a weapon and they get enchanted like a weapon, in addition to whatever enchantments the armor itself gets. The same goes for shield spikes. You can also wear two gauntlets and enchant both of those. Then there's a bunch of silly put-a-blade-on-all-the-things weapons in Arms and Equipment Guide, blades that stick out of your boots and held in your mouth and hang from your hair, etc.

Interesting, I won't argue it's effectiveness. I can tell this is very powerful.

However, spiked gauntlets and the like isn't exactly the concept I'm looking for so I think I may pass on this for this character. I'll keep this in mind for another one though. :)

As for the Rogue/Swashbuckler, that is a very awesome way of doing it.
Though I can easily see any DM looking at this and going 'No, this is abuse and you know it'.


The Generic Warrior/Expert that everyone's referring to is in Unearthed Arcana.

Here's what I came up with:

Factotum 20 // Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Swordsage 1/Warblade 2/Duelist 10/Warblade 2.

Take the Carmendine Monk feat from Champions of Valor, weapon finesse and Shadow Blade. This means you get Int to AC, dex to hit, dex to damage and Int to damage. At higher levels you'll get Int to AC again from Factotum, as well as Canny Defence from Duelist, and you can add your Int to either attack or damage by spending inspiration points.

Be a Cobra Style variant monk, from Unearthed Arcana. This gives you Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, to qualify for duelist.
Since you've already got Dodge and Mobility you'll want to pick up the Elusive Target feat from CW. It lets you be immune to power attack, as well as 2 other benefits, both of which fit the character's theme.

You should probably look up some Factotum handbooks.

Charisma is probably your 4th most important skill, after intelligence, dexterity and constitution. It's useful for loads of social skills as well as UMD and Iajitsu Focus.

This fits almost all of your criteria, with one exception: You do have access to a few spells. They aren't really integral to the build, though, so you can feel free never to cast them at all.

Good point on the BAB, I might want to go back to the drawing boards for a bit.
Sadly TOB classes aren't allowed, our DM didn't like the idea of maneuvers and stances.

I might pass on the Factotum, it's just I have a peeve with that class where many skills your only good with once a day so for many of them you're not actually skilled in them. You just borrowing the knowledge from something else for a bit.

Monk is something I would want to have though for a bit if I could. Not outright but a few levels would cover some bases for me. And Cobra Strike is the perfect way to set myself up for Duelist! :) Thank you.


A good option for your weapon can be found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11763.20); it's cheap, can use the Morphing property to become any one-handed light melee weapon and can be easily enchanted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odK20vQB-7o

This is just EVIL! :smallbiggrin:

I will defelently try this.

The DM I'm expecting will outright jaw drop and then yell for being stupid enough for even thinking I had even the slightest chance of it being accepted. But hey, I'm not buying any weapons until the campaign start so he can't look at my sheet before-hand and go 'Nope, this isn't allowed, too powerful'.

I am expecting this to be thrown out the second I use it (If he ever figures out my insane AC or whatever I enchant is from my shuriken), I'll probably use it as a joke since he's making a classic DM power trip by banning anything he finds too powerful or broken (hence why no TOB classes).

Plus, I'm still half debating joining this campaign anyway's. If anything something like this should show how much he rewards player creativity or how much he punishes players for doing something he can't think of or knows or to deal with (I'm going with a concept that is weak anyways, I kind of need the boost :P). If he shows more the latter that's one more sign that I leave.

Then again, I decided if he doesn't accept whatever build (The one this topic is about) I send to him I'm just going to leave right there since I'm already unsure about the groups success chance and I have another more friendly (and doesn't punish creativity) going on as well. Yet that one isn't Gestalt so I won't be able to use an effective duelist like character there no matter what I do.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Bard says it was to be based on music, one-liners isn't music.


While these abilities fall
under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss
singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting
poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies (fa-la-la,
and so forth), whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an
instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

So no, music is not a requirement. And the poetry category is extremely broad, I'd say that you can fit one-liners in there, if you like.


Also I'm not that good at one liners, I would fall flat on my face.

Too bad, badass bards are awesome.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So no, music is not a requirement. And the poetry category is extremely broad, I'd say that you can fit one-liners in there, if you like.



Too bad, badass bards are awesome.

Knowing my DM, he wouldn't consider it as broad.

He's a very literal by the book kind of DM?

"Whats that? The rules completely stupid, lacks logic and makes the game less fun? Well unless if it disrespects old people I'm keeping the rule in".

^Blunt but basically what he's like when the book says something. He'd see it 'You need to do poetry, it says right there, poetry'.

Note: There was also a time where he read through all the Warforged history and culture as a basis to approve it because he didn't want a race that didn't fit his world history wise into his game, even though that's something he can easily change (and most players never pay attention to anyway's).