How big can you go?

[Arc_knight25]

I know that the bigger you go the worst your dex gets.

But if you wanted to get as big as you could with a Bow/crossbow build how would you go about it?

How does size effect the range increments on a larger bow/crossbow?

I just think it is funny to be pelting people off at a huge range with arrows or bolts the size of tree trunks.

[Gerrtt]

I think what you'd want to do to get the most mileage out of this idea is to forget your dexterity score and instead go with Zen Archery, which allows you to use your wisdom instead of your dexterity for ranged attacks.

[Jack_Simth]

I know that the bigger you go the worst your dex gets.

But if you wanted to get as big as you could with a Bow/crossbow build how would you go about it?

Colossal++.
Use the Magic and Psionics are different option, and stack the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size with the Psionic power Expansion.


How does size effect the range increments on a larger bow/crossbow?

By RAW? Not at all.


I just think it is funny to be pelting people off at a huge range with arrows or bolts the size of tree trunks.
It would be a bit amusing, yes.

Edit:
Oh yes, and as Gerrtt said: If you're doing this, definately pick up Zen Archery to avoid soaking the Dex penalty on your to-hit. That or Brutal Throw and use Javelins.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I believe under RAW size does not change range increment (which gets silly when a fine bow fires the same distance as a colossal). As for size changes, the Wu Jen can use giant size to up themselves and their equipment to colossal at high levels.

Edit: ninja'd.

[Arc_knight25]

Using wisdom over dex is a great idea. Also being so big gets you a pretty decent Strength score. So anything mighty will increase the range increments by at least 10ft per plus.

I know that there are prestige classes that do either increase range increments or lessen the minuses for shooting out of range.

Unfortunatly I don't know much about the Wu jen. I tend not to be casters. But this seems quite fun at the least.

[Jack_Simth]

Using wisdom over dex is a great idea. Also being so big gets you a pretty decent Strength score. So anything mighty will increase the range increments by at least 10ft per plus.

I know that there are prestige classes that do either increase range increments or lessen the minuses for shooting out of range.

Unfortunatly I don't know much about the Wu jen. I tend not to be casters. But this seems quite fun at the least.

Honestly, I don't know much about them either. But the gist of my suggestion is grabbing a particular spell on their list (Giant Size, Wu-Jen 7) which can get you to Colossal by caster level 20, and mixing that up with the 1st level Psychic Warrior power Expansion, making sure to get your manifester level to at least 7. You'll likely need practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester to pull it off, and someone more familiar with how to gish than I am to make it work for what you want, but if size is all you're after, you can get very big.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Hero domain Shamans also get Giant Size, and come with the usual Cleric archer tricks built in (2 more domains, turning, divine power, divine favor, etc.), as well as their own stuff like shapechange, polymorph and animal companions.

And with LA buyoff, Psionic Duergar with can also get automatically-augmented Expansion without burning any levels on manifesting classes. Maybe worth a thought.

[Carth]

Honestly, I don't know much about them either. But the gist of my suggestion is grabbing a particular spell on their list (Giant Size, Wu-Jen 7) which can get you to Colossal by caster level 20, and mixing that up with the 1st level Psychic Warrior power Expansion, making sure to get your manifester level to at least 7. You'll likely need practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester to pull it off, and someone more familiar with how to gish than I am to make it work for what you want, but if size is all you're after, you can get very big.

Expansion is only getting you +4 strength and no further increase in size, so going to the work of obtaining it isn't going to be worthwhile. Multiple magical increases in size don't stack, remember, but if you read the stat bonuses as being separate from the size changes, giant size still grants an untyped bonus and expansion grants a size bonus.

[Callin]

Since you are asking about crossbows and being OMGBIG why not just figure out how to get the bow to deal damage as if it was Colossus instead of being big and taking the negatives to hit for being larger than medium?

[unseenmage]

Savage Species page 42 Changing Weapon Size

[Jack_Simth]

Expansion is only getting you +4 strength and no further increase in size, so going to the work of obtaining it isn't going to be worthwhile. Multiple magical increases in size don't stack, remember, but if you read the stat bonuses as being separate from the size changes, giant size still grants an untyped bonus and expansion grants a size bonus.
Hence why in the original writeup I said to use the "Magic and Psionics are Different" option in the campaign. If you're using Magic/Psionics transparency, then yes, Giant Size puts you at the limit. If you're not, then the two effects stack if you do Giant Size first.

[Carth]

Ah, I wasn't clear what you meant before, you should refer to it as the magic psionics transparency so people are clear what you mean. Regardless, there is no size category larger than colossal, so you derive no benefit from increasing stature at the point you hit colossal. I believe the only place where colossal+ is used is epic dragons, and in their entry it explicitly states that there isn't a size category larger than colossal. Colossal+ is only being used to designate improved dragon natural weapons. Further, when the colossal red dragon mini was released, there was some confusion over the fact that it was an 8x8 mini, and not 6x6, and it was stated that 6x6 is merely the minimum size for colossal.

[Fouredged Sword]

Launch bolt can also be used to fire bolts of any size. Just carry some in your haversack.

Then chain it to fire CL per casting. 8d6 damage per caster level is fairly hard to beat for a 3rd or 4th level spell.

[TuggyNE]

So anything mighty will increase the range increments by at least 10ft per plus.

I beg your pardon? I've never heard of such a rule; all that mighty composite bows will give you is extra damage. (The extra range comes, once, from being composite.) It also doesn't work on crossbows (which I find weird, but whatever).

[Arc_knight25]

@tuggyne: I thought I saw a rule somewhere that for each + in mighty that it increased the range by 10ft. Or i just thought that was a progression since a Lbow is 100ft a C Lbow is 110ft(+0 Str) I probably just thought there was a progression there. Anyways I'm probably wrong.

How do you increase the range then?

Far shot gives you range x1.5. So the C Lbow would have a range of 175ft

Any other ways to increase that?

As for the getting large. Giant size seems to be the best way.

Cleric with Hero domain seems most viable. Corellon Larethian has the Hero Domain in 3.0.

What would be a good race to attempt with this as well?

(I noticed the psychic dwarf there. I'm not a big psychic fan. So will avoid like the plague. But thank you for your input.)

[Daftendirekt]

@tuggyne: I thought I saw a rule somewhere that for each + in mighty that it increased the range by 10ft. Or i just thought that was a progression since a Lbow is 100ft a C Lbow is 110ft(+0 Str) I probably just thought there was a progression there. Anyways I'm probably wrong.


You are indeed wrong. It's not that a +0 str composite longbow gets 10 more feet. It's that ALL composite longbows get 10 more feet.

[tyckspoon]

Hence why in the original writeup I said to use the "Magic and Psionics are Different" option in the campaign. If you're using Magic/Psionics transparency, then yes, Giant Size puts you at the limit. If you're not, then the two effects stack if you do Giant Size first.

Expansion actually just says 'multiple effects that increase size do not stack' - no reference to magical/psionic/mundane. It's one of the most readily accessible ways to gain 2 size increases, but if you want more than that you have to look elsewhere since you can't combine it with anything.


How do you increase the range then?

There's always the Distance enhancement, which will stack with Far Shot.. although it's unclear just how the math should go on that (2.5x the original range increment? Apply one than the other? It makes a pretty big distance- on a 100 ft increment, combining the two modifiers and applying to the base gets you a 250 ft increment, while applying them in sequence gets 300.) And if you're willing to burn a feat you can get an Exotic bow that has a higher base increment to apply those multipliers to. There's also a few special ammunition types that extend range, although I don't recall if they had official crossbow versions- they may be arrow-only. Past that it's mostly in class features.. although at the point where you have a 3-400 foot range increment, you're probably better off investing in finding ways to improve your scouting/Spot checks and reducing range penalties so you can actually identify and hit targets at that distance.

[Emperor Tippy]

Step 1: Make/get a really, really, really, huge pile of stone. I recommend using a few billion castings of Wall of Stone out in deep space (use a auto resetting trap of Mage's Lubrication to regain the spell slots).
Step 2: Wish up a scroll of Fabricate at CL 1 trillion or so.
Step 3: Shapechange into a Lilitu.
Step 4: Use your Item Use Ex ability to use your Fabricate Scroll to change the pile of stone into a giant humanoid statue.
Step 5: Wish up a scroll of Animate Object at CL 1 trillion or so.
Step 6: Shapechange into a Lilitu.
Step 7: Use your Item Use Ex ability to animate your statue.
Step 8: Have Permanency cast on your statue, ideally with Tenacious Magic: Permanency
Step 9: Use Polymorph Any Object to make your statue into a human, as it is an Animated Object it is a creature and thus a valid target.
Step 10: Manifest True Mind Switch to move yourself into the PAOed human.
Step 11: End the PAO.

You are now a hideously huge (as in potentially planet sized or larger) stone construct. Now, for practicality's sake go and get a CL 1 trillion Shapechange cast on you so that you can shapechange into a form that can actually stand on a planet without rendering it uninhabitable.

[Xervous]

This thread before Tippy : size = A*E^Y

afterwards

ERROR: STACK OVERFLOW

[Talionis]

Don't forget there are ways to treat your attacks as one size bigger. ToB has Stone Mountain Stance and there is a Incarnum Soulmelds that does the same thing.

[Arc_knight25]

So the Cragtop Archer prestige class lessens the penalties for spot checks as well as getting a longer range so long as you have 40ft of clearance. And at lvl 4 you can make a single attack at your max distance with no penalty.

prereq: Climb 10, Spot 5, Survival 5, BAB 6, Far Shot and Mountain Warrior

Problem is that none of those skills are on the Clerics list.

Thinking Domains Elf (for point blank shot) Hero to get Giant size.

Aim for Cragtop Archer. Unless of course there is a better Prc to get these range bonuses.

So lets say I have a longbow (100ft range) If i want to shot something between 101ft and 200ft I take a -2? or are the increments smaller?

[ahenobarbi]

You can get them as class skills, check out this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0).

[hydraa]

Also as alluded to earlier.
Range increment changed by size in 3.0. (+/- 25% for each size change) {savage species and arms&equipment show this}
3.5 changed the range increment to be a set distance not affected by size.

[Arc_knight25]

So here is what I have so far that would make sense.

Race: Half Elf
Deity: Corellon Larethian
Domains: Elf and War (Hero at lvl 15)

Elf: Point Blank Shot

War: Martial prof + weapon focus

Hero: Once per day, you can add your Cleric level to a single attack roll

Cleric (1) – Turn undead, Able Learner(For climb, survival and Spot)
Cleric (3) – Zen Archery
Cleric (4) - Stat increase
Cleric (6) – Precise Shot
Cleric (8) - Stat increase
Cleric (9) – Mountain Warrior
Cleric (12) – Stat increase, Far Shot
Cleric (15) – Extra Domain: Hero
(16) Fighter/Ranger/Rogue? - Stat increase
Cragtop Archer(17)
Cragtop Archer(18) – Feat:Practised Spellcaster
Cragtop Archer(19)
Cragtop Archer(20) - Stat increase

Now lvl 16 i may need a quick dumb into climb to get Cragtop Archer, So Fighter UA Variant gets 4+int for skills and sneak attack(really don't need). I would use the UA Rogue and get the extra feat more then likely.

Anything else anyone care to add?

This will need some DM approval if i were to play this as a PC. For the Hero Domain since it is 3.0 and for shaman.

As a DM it would make a great NPC in a big battle on a mountain.

[ahenobarbi]

Take a look at Cloistered Cleric - it gets more skill points so it'll be easier to qualify for Prestige Classes (it's in SRD).
It might be a good idea to take rogue at level 1, not 16. This way you will get extra 24 skill points (because quadrupled at level 1).
Check out half-human elf (Dungeon Masters Guide, Chapter 6 "Characters", "New Races" section, page 171). Like half elf but you trade Diplomancy & Gather Information bonus to get elven weapon proficiencies.
I'd consider different domains - War and Elf will give you little (especially if you get proficiencies for being half-human elf). Hero doesn't look great either (really bonus to attack once a day...). Maybe trade one for Knowledge Devotion feat (Complete Champion, it's good if you can afford ranks in Knowledge skills (see suggestion 1)). For domains take a look here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866706/The_Guide_to_Sovereign_Speakers_and_Other_Domain_U sers).

[Xan_Kriegor]

There's always the Distance enhancement, which will stack with Far Shot.. although it's unclear just how the math should go on that (2.5x the original range increment? Apply one than the other?

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying) it would be triple the distance (1.5 * 2.0 = 3.0 multiplier) which gives composite longbows 330ft. range.

[Arcanist]

You are now a hideously huge (as in potentially planet sized or larger) stone construct. Now, for practicality's sake go and get a CL 1 trillion Shapechange cast on you so that you can shapechange into a form that can actually stand on a planet without rendering it uninhabitable.

Why not just PaO into a Silver Dragon the size of a Gigaparsec so you can Alternate form down to the size of a medium creature?

[Emperor Tippy]

Why not just PaO into a Silver Dragon the size of a Gigaparsec so you can Alternate form down to the size of a medium creature?

Because PAO dumps you into an average version of the target form. Silver Dragons don't average gigaparsec size.

[Arc_knight25]

Rogue at lvl 1 would be good for the skills. Going Wilderness Rogue gets Survival as a class skill, which helps out with getting the 5 needed for that quickly. Ranger may be better for the Full BAB.

Elf domain was for Point Blank Shot (Prereq for Far Shot, Which is a prereq to get into Cragtop Archer)

War was for the proficiencies for the C Lbow.(Was going to need DM approval for that) If the Half-Human elf works then I would definatly chose another Domain over this one.

Hero is for Giant Size(Domain spell level 8), the whole point of this build. It all comes together very late in the build.

I may just take Hero as one of my 2 domains at lvl 1 cleric. And change the Extra Domain feat for something I can dump those Turn undead attempts into.

Cloistered Cleric has light armour, poor BAB, some spells that really don't help the build and knowledge Skills which aren't really needed.

[Person_Man]

If you want to play a build that dramatically increases your size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777), I would suggest taking levels of Hulking Hurler. You'll cause a lot more damage just throwing the really big bolts or arrows, since Hulking Hurler's damage is based on weight.

[Zombulian]

Hero domain Shamans also get Giant Size, and come with the usual Cleric archer tricks built in (2 more domains, turning, divine power, divine favor, etc.), as well as their own stuff like shapechange, polymorph and animal companions.

And with LA buyoff, Psionic Duergar with can also get automatically-augmented Expansion without burning any levels on manifesting classes. Maybe worth a thought.

Hooray! Shamans never get enough love for how many cleric tricks they can pull off, while also being punchy masters and having a cool spell list. Maybe it's because their animal companion doesn't make any sense...