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View Full Version : Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster vs Beguiler 20



Ramza00
2006-11-26, 06:03 PM
Okay with the coming out of complete mage we are given the Unseen Seer. The Unseen Seer is a "sneaky divination" specialist. It has some divination tricks, plus it advance sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike damage.

The best 3 "sneak attack" builds are as follows. (Note you can make a radically different Unseen Seer if you go scout and mobility instead of sneak attack.)
Rogue 1/Wizard 5(For the bonus feat)/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10
Rogue 1/Wizard 5(For the bonus feat)/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 4/Unseen Seer +6(10)

Thus now the two good sneaky mages are either the beguiler, or an Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster combo. Which would you pick to play? Note you don't have to remain a pure beguiler you can prestige out, I am mostly refering to archetypes.

Beguiler has the advantage of being a spontaneous spellcaster but has a limited list. Besides staying hidden a beguiler also specializes in influencing people. A beguiler is more a combination of illusion and enchantment expert.

A Unseen Seer build though focuses on being a "traditional wizard" which also has access to sneak attack. Thus he is more of an illusion and evocation/conjuration expert.

NullAshton
2006-11-26, 06:06 PM
Unseen seer. Why? Would seem like you can help your allies more, and thus not be as 'over-powered'...

Ramza00
2006-11-26, 06:07 PM
This shouldn't modify the "archetype" discussion, but there is a ranger divination spell called Hunter's Eye in PHBII. It gives caster level/3 sneak attack. It is accessible to the through the Unseen Seer's advanced learning. It is a persistable and is an 8th level spell when persisted. Thus you can tack on an extra 6d6-8d6 damage from lvl 16-20. (Or earlier through an incantatrix cohort or something.)





Now back to archetype, flavor, roleplaying and personal preference discussion less character optimization.

Ramza00
2006-11-26, 06:10 PM
Unseen seer. Why? Would seem like you can help your allies more, and thus not be as 'over-powered'...

This is just an "archetype, flavor, roleplaying and personal preference discussion." Which do you prefer more to play?

A fighter, barbarian, warblade, or crusader would all make a great melee combantant and they can all do a good job of doing damage and being the "beefy" guy. Each though do it in a slightly different fashion and have different "flavor" attached to them. This is similar to a Wizard/US/AT vs a Beguiler.

Noneoyabizzness
2006-11-26, 06:22 PM
This shouldn't modify the "archetype" discussion, but there is a ranger divination spell called Hunter's Eye in PHBII. It gives caster level/3 sneak attack. It is accessible to the through the Unseen Seer's advanced learning. It is a persistable and is an 8th level spell when persisted. Thus you can tack on an extra 6d6-8d6 damage from lvl 16-20. (Or earlier through an incantatrix cohort or something.)





Now back to archetype, flavor, roleplaying and personal preference discussion less character optimization.

archtypically, unseen trickster. of course I'd go for more prc levels and not care about a bonus feat. maybe slip in a level of archmage, abjchamp, divine oracle (you already are boosted in divination, whats one more level highers in casting ability?), loremaster, mindbender, wayfarer guide, etc etc

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-26, 06:22 PM
I love the Beguiler's flavor and spontaneity, but I'd be more likely to play the wizard-based build, since it's more effective and the flavor can fit just as well--because, as we all know, wizards are Batman.

cupkeyk
2006-11-26, 08:00 PM
Other than skills and divination spells, do Unseen Seers have a sneak attack damage prerequisite? Does their sneak ability require that it is used on top of a existing precision based damage ability?

I think Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10 is best, advanced learning and guarded mind is precious. A Level of mindbender and two of divine oracle wouldn't hurt as Prescient sense will keep the twig/glass cannon alive while he telepathy ability helps him be extra sneaky, swapping out three levels of Arcane Trickster. This makes the character more a spy than an assassin.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-26, 08:03 PM
You can't advance something that you don't have.

I recall seeing a very detailed breakdown on the CharOp boards that shows that Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 4/Unseen Seer +6 is the most effective at any given point.

cupkeyk
2006-11-26, 08:19 PM
i don't see the extra feat as effective as more abilities.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-26, 08:24 PM
The fault there lies with you, not the feat. :P

Ramza00
2006-11-26, 09:06 PM
I recall seeing a very detailed breakdown on the CharOp boards that shows that Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 4/Unseen Seer +6 is the most effective at any given point.

That was me, I am also Phoenix00 on the Char Ops board this is the post
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10743481&postcount=14

Here is the chart, there is more discussion and analsis in that thread and in the greater thread.
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2396/usvsatgu8.jpg
Thus the best Unseen Seer Sneak Attack build is determined by the factor when is the fastest you can persist a 2nd level spell hunter's eye.

And there are so many things you can do with a wizard feat, so many things do not be dismissive of feats :smallbiggrin: The question is, is that 1 level of prc abilities you are trading off worth it? 1 level of archmage requires 3 feats+the feat you lost from wiz 5, is the ability you are gaining worth it?

The secret of powergaming is oppurtunity costs.

---------------

But enough numbers, if I wanted just numbers I would be on that board exclusively. I come here for flavor and roleplaying decisions/advice/questions ;) My question wasn't which build can blow things up bigger, or is a better "mindbender" my question is what do you prefer to play (of course if you like blowing things up this may factor into your answer).

Noneoyabizzness
2006-11-26, 09:30 PM
But enough numbers, if I wanted just numbers I would be on that board exclusively. I come here for flavor and roleplaying decisions/advice/questions ;) My question wasn't which build can blow things up bigger, or is a better "mindbender" my question is what do you prefer to play (of course if you like blowing things up this may factor into your answer).

but with a magic rogue with a better mindtrick, or the ability to teleport more stolen goods farther away, or have longer lasting defensive spells are more flavor issues than power mongering.

Ramza00
2006-11-26, 09:36 PM
but with a magic rogue with a better mindtrick, or the ability to teleport more stolen goods farther away, or have longer lasting defensive spells are more flavor issues than power mongering.
I agree that is why I was hoping to discuss archetypes with this board. Beguiler 20 or Beguiler with some Prestige classes is one archetype and a Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster is another. Which one would you prefer to play. Yes you can create a hundrend different styles of Unseen Seer that is why I limited it to an "sneak attack style" builds.

One style of Unseen Seer (combined with Arcane Trickster since US is a 10 level class) vs the traditional Beguiler and any combinations you can make out of that class.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-26, 09:39 PM
I don't really see why the Unseen Seer can't have the same flavor as a Beguiler.

Ramza00
2006-11-26, 09:45 PM
You can make your flavor of an Unseen Seer similar to one of a beguiler but the class mechanics don't as easily lend itself when comapared to an "arcane trickster" type character.

To use an analogy, a ranger is nothing more than a combination fighter/druid, or a paladin a cleric/fighter.

An Unseen Seer mechanics lend itself to more easily be a "sneak attack" damage dealer through the use of spells or other forms of sneak attack.

I see this thread as being hijacked by several discussions that "never end" on these boards. Are my directions/question that vague, or is it inevitable that we reinvent those discussions in another thread?

arjomanes
2007-12-06, 03:43 PM
I find that playing a beguiler vs an unseen seer depends upon the makeup of your group, the type of DM, and the style of game.

In one campaign I play in my DM creates stories and adventures that our characters react to. Plots are usually centered around combat and exploration of dungeons, encounters are frequently black and white, and the story has a linear structure. It's fun and challenging, and the encounters are well-played by the DM, but in general the players respond to the story the DM crafts, or the modules he incorporates into the campaign. In this game, it's very satisfying to play a character like an unseen seer (I'm currently creating an unseen seer to play in this campaign, but I previously played a rogue/ranger/chameleon in a similar manner to how I'll be playing the unseen seer). You have utility spells, movement options, combat and trapfinding skills, and a powerful sniper ability. This gives a number of options in reacting to challenging surprises and encounters that come your way.

In my other campaign, however, I play a beguiler/binder/anima mage. This game is more urban, more story-driven, and more about pursuing your individual goals and working with the DM to author a story; as a result, the beguiler has free reign to pursue manipulating and influencing npcs and driving the story along according to his own goals. If a beguiler can pick the battlefield, he is at his peak, but I think an unseen seer can better adapt to anything that gets thrown at him. I think it really comes down to the type of campaign.

An unseen seer is a fun character with lots of tricks up his sleeve, great at combat and at adapting to challenges. I believe an unseen seer is better equipped to deal with typical D&D encounters and stories than a beguiler is, though of course a beguiler can adapt. I think an unseen seer is fun for a player that wants to be able to take on just about any challenge, effective against any kind of opponent, and ready for any kind of situation.

I don't think an unseen seer is as driven and powerful in a social, economic and political sense as a beguiler. I think that with a DM that encourages player authorship and goals, the beguiler can be more ultimately satisfying and influential in the campaign world. But a beguiler does better when he can choose the best means to accomplish his goal, and win the battle without having to roll initiative.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-06, 03:49 PM
Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman! No, not you, Wizard, the REAL Batman!

arjomanes
2007-12-06, 06:12 PM
Oh yeah oops. It was originally posted in 2006, not 2007. Ahh well. It's still relevant for 4 more months.