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Recalcitrent
2013-05-10, 06:33 PM
Hey everyone. This is my first post on GiantitP, so I'd appreciate any comments or critique you have. Anyway, onto the matter at hand. I'm running a campaign right now, and one of my players asked if he could get his Dex bonus to his trip attempts, as he is running a character with a low Strength stat. In response, I came up with this feat as a possibility, and I'd like people's view on it.
Dexterous Fighter
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse
You are adept at using your superior agility to trip up and grapple your enemies, often causing them to trip over themselves, or slipping away from a failed attempt before they can respond.
Benefit: You can use your Dex modifier instead of your Strength modifier for trip and grapple attempts. In addition, if you should fail your trip attempt, you do not incur an opposing trip attempt.
Normal: You can only use your Strength modifier on grapple and trip attempts, as well as incurring an opposed trip attempt should you fail your own attempt.
Special: This feat only applies to weapons that Weapon Finesse affects. A fighter may select Dexterous Fighter as one of his/her bonus feats.

Edited: I added Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite to help prevent Strength based fighters from taking the feat for next to nothing, as well as making the feat only apply to weapons that Weapon Finesse works on.

2013-05-10, 07:36 PM
The secondary effect is too strong, even a strength based fighter would want it, it needs a feat on its own

The primary effect looks fine on the balance side, but it kinda breaks my suspension of disbelief.
How about half dex modifier in addition to strength?

Recalcitrent
2013-05-11, 07:15 PM
I agree, the feat is too easy for strength based fighters to take. I think I'll add Weapon Finesse as a prereq to help combat that, as well as making it only apply to weapons that Weapon Finesse affects. Personally, though, I dont think the second part of the feat requires a feat on its own, but I do agree it might be a little strong. I also won't change the Dex modifier to grapple/trip attempts, at least not at this moment. Personally, I don't find it hard to believe that, in a world with dragons, wizards, and people summoning demons and angels, someone can be really good at grappling or tripping someone because they are faster and/or more agile than them. However, I appreciate the feedback, and I look forward to more.

2013-05-12, 07:40 AM
Excuse me, if this feat is so good for strength fighters, then it means it's equally good for dex based fighters. It is in fact more useful for them.
So the solution shouldn't be to mke it less available to str fighters, for which the feat is more or less balanced, but to reduce its power for dex based fighter, for which the feat is way more powerful than it is for a str based fighter

(imho)

(By the way, this feat makes suddenly Swordsages with a spiked chain three times more dangerous)

Rakoa
2013-05-12, 09:37 AM
I would simply alter it so that there is no dexterity-based grappling going on. That is a bit strange to me, but I could easily see dexterity-based tripping as it is.

Ziegander
2013-05-12, 10:05 AM
What are we talking about here? In no way is this feat too powerful in the slightest. Substituting Dex for Str in a couple combat maneuvers? Great, now you've spent two feat taxes to make Dex your primary combat modifier and you're still behind the Str-based fighter. The only nice thing this has going for it is the secondary benefit which isn't even given by Improved Trip (which is weird, because I could've sworn it was). Without that secondary benefit, this feat would be interesting but weak, like many other 3.5 feats out there. With the secondary benefit it simply moves up to interesting. It's still not a strong feat whatsoever.

Yitzi
2013-05-12, 10:22 AM
and you're still behind the Str-based fighter.

I'm not so sure...DEX-based builds can be quite impressive by focusing on AC.

Terazul
2013-05-13, 10:45 AM
AC doesn't help you kill things. And they lose out on power attack.

This is far from overpowered, and mildly interesting as-is. I didn't even realize Improved Trip didn't give the second part, simply because I'm so used to tripping things with Setting Sun strikes that don't let your opponent trip you back by default. I don't think Dex-based fighters are suddenly going to start springing up everywhere because of this.

Takes up a feat slot, guys.

Xulin
2013-05-14, 12:03 AM
I don't see this feat really helping strength fighters- that said the prerequisite of Weapon Finesse is not that big a deal, since the fighter who uses this feat would probably end up taking it anyway. A decent feat for the fighter/rogue combo; I'd probably try it out on such a character. Wow, improved trip doesn't protect you from countertrip - although this lacks the +4 bonus a normal character would get

In no way are the effects of this feat overpowered. I give it a B-.

Recalcitrent
2013-05-14, 02:08 AM
Xulin's response was kind of my feel for it, that Weapon Finesse is something a Dex build will have anyway. I appreciate all of the responses to my feat thus far, and right now, I've told my player he can use it as it is, basically using him as a guinea pig :smallbiggrin:. I have no qualms about this, as he has used a previous campaign of mine to test a homebrew of his own. However, any further input is always welcome!

GunbladeKnight
2013-05-14, 02:24 AM
Most STR based fighters wouldn't bother with this anyways, since much of those builds are based on power attack. If they do trip, it's usually with a spiked chain that they can drop anyways.

I'm actually surprised you can't normally use DEX in place of STR normally. In fact, since the character only expressed interest in tripping, why not drop the grapple part (he can use escape artist for that), add a +4 to trip attempts and use this in place of improved trip (Same prereqs. Don't know why they based it off INT instead).

Yitzi
2013-05-14, 10:34 AM
AC doesn't help you kill things.

D&D, even the combat part, isn't about killing things. It's about killing things before they can kill you. AC doesn't help you kill things faster, but it gives you more time to do so.

Terazul
2013-05-14, 12:23 PM
D&D, even the combat part, isn't about killing things. It's about killing things before they can kill you. AC doesn't help you kill things faster, but it gives you more time to do so.

Correct. And pumping Dex is one of the most inefficient ways of doing so. :smallconfused: I'm saying that "the dex-based characters might get more AC" is a poor reason for saying the feat will put you ahead of a str-based fighter. It won't.

DeusMortuusEst
2013-05-14, 03:55 PM
D&D, even the combat part, isn't about killing things. It's about killing things before they can kill you. AC doesn't help you kill things faster, but it gives you more time to do so.


Correct. And pumping Dex is one of the most inefficient ways of doing so. :smallconfused: I'm saying that "the dex-based characters might get more AC" is a poor reason for saying the feat will put you ahead of a str-based fighter. It won't.

True, and in general damage and to-hit is easier to pump than AC, so focusing on that will help you kill you enemies before they kill you faster :smallwink:

The feat is interesting, but if it's balanced or not depends on the group. If you tend to play in medium or high-op this isn't probably worth a spending a feat on.

Yitzi
2013-05-16, 10:28 PM
Correct. And pumping Dex is one of the most inefficient ways of doing so.

If combined with other methods it can increase the efficiency (over using only those other methods), though.

Rizban
2013-05-16, 10:45 PM
What are we talking about here? In no way is this feat too powerful in the slightest. Substituting Dex for Str in a couple combat maneuvers? Great, now you've spent two feat taxes to make Dex your primary combat modifier and you're still behind the Str-based fighter. The only nice thing this has going for it is the secondary benefit which isn't even given by Improved Trip (which is weird, because I could've sworn it was). Without that secondary benefit, this feat would be interesting but weak, like many other 3.5 feats out there. With the secondary benefit it simply moves up to interesting. It's still not a strong feat whatsoever.I was going to write up an evaluation of the feat, but Zeigander said almost exactly what I would say.

I agree that this feat is interesting but probably not worth taking over other options. Simply switching out Dex for Str on some combat maneuvers is almost not even worthy of a feat. Weapon Finesse is almost not worth a feat and would probably have been better as just being an option inherent in the system. Another feat tax for this ability without that second line is just not helpful.

Terazul
2013-05-16, 11:59 PM
If combined with other methods it can increase the efficiency (over using only those other methods), though.

...That's great, but nobody calls Weapon Finesse overpowered/claims it's overpowered because it might be used in an AC stacking build (which hilariously enough a strength fighter/whatever could do just as well). Kind of grasping at straws here. Seriously. Feat isn't that strong.

Yitzi
2013-05-17, 10:33 AM
True, and in general damage and to-hit is easier to pump than AC

Is to-hit really easier to pump than AC? I'm pretty sure that, at least by Core-only, AC is easier to pump if you get really serious about it.


...That's great, but nobody calls Weapon Finesse overpowered/claims it's overpowered because it might be used in an AC stacking build (which hilariously enough a strength fighter/whatever could do just as well).

Actually, a STR fighter couldn't do it as well, as DEX does contribute a significant few points (and you need Weapon Finesse anyway for Duelist, which is great for an AC stacking build). The reason that's not overpowered is simply because fighters in general are underpowered; if primary casters did not exist, I think AC-stacking would be quite powerful (though vulnerable to grapplers and other touch-AC-targeting fighter builds).

Rizban
2013-05-17, 12:13 PM
Is to-hit really easier to pump than AC? I'm pretty sure that, at least by Core-only, AC is easier to pump if you get really serious about it.



Actually, a STR fighter couldn't do it as well, as DEX does contribute a significant few points (and you need Weapon Finesse anyway for Duelist, which is great for an AC stacking build). The reason that's not overpowered is simply because fighters in general are underpowered; if primary casters did not exist, I think AC-stacking would be quite powerful (though vulnerable to grapplers and other touch-AC-targeting fighter builds).Bull Rush and Overrun don't even require attack rolls, and both can be used in a way that denies an opponent their dex bonus to AC, either by knocking them prone or by pushing them into something that denies it. Either way, it's an attack which doesn't have to hit AC and negates all that dex focus.

Yitzi
2013-05-17, 12:39 PM
Bull Rush and Overrun don't even require attack rolls, and both can be used in a way that denies an opponent their dex bonus to AC, either by knocking them prone or by pushing them into something that denies it.

Prone is a -4 to AC but does not deny DEX bonus to AC, and to bull rush someone into something that denies DEX bonus to AC, such a thing must actually exist (and such that you can get them close enough to it), which makes it quite situational (especially if they have 5 ranks in balance, knocking out the majority of ways to do that).

More of a concern to such a build are either attacking while invisible (but watch out for a 2 level barbarian dip), or negating the other parts of AC (via grapple/touch attacks) or a gish using True Strike. So it can be done; high AC is not invulnerability. But it's certainly a viable build, at least as long as tier 1-2 stays out of it.

Rizban
2013-05-17, 01:30 PM
Prone is a -4 to AC but does not deny DEX bonus to AC,Hmm... it appears you're right. I had remembered that wrong. It still forces a -4 penalty on them.


and to bull rush someone into something that denies DEX bonus to AC, such a thing must actually exist (and such that you can get them close enough to it), which makes it quite situational (especially if they have 5 ranks in balance, knocking out the majority of ways to do that).I didn't say it was a perfect option, but it is still an option.


More of a concern to such a build are either attacking while invisible (but watch out for a 2 level barbarian dip), or negating the other parts of AC (via grapple/touch attacks) or a gish using True Strike. So it can be done; high AC is not invulnerability. But it's certainly a viable build, at least as long as tier 1-2 stays out of it.It is viable, but there are still options that overcome it. Tanglefoot bags also come to mind, ranged touch attack for entangled. -2 attacks and -4 Dex drops AC by 2 and attacks by 4 for a Dex focused melee.

Hanuman
2013-05-17, 11:20 PM
Easy fix.

Make Dexterous Fighter an ACF for fighters exactly like dungeoncrasher is, hell you don't even need to balance it too hard as fighters are T5 and you're not going to make them better than T3 no matter how you do it.

Rizban
2013-05-18, 03:17 AM
Rather than making it an ACF, I'd just make it an inherent option for any character. Weapon Finesse and this are no longer feats, and any character can choose to use either Str or Dex for attack rolls and certain maneuvers without having to pay a feat tax.

The list of weapons that can use Dex on attack would not change.

Weapon Finesse can then be rewritten such that it's new ability applies Dex to damage by allowing one to slip past defenses and hit a more critical spot. It only applies to melee weapons when using Dex on attack rolls.