Wish/Miracle/etc. backfire: metagame and DM adjudication

[ben-zayb]

We've probably all heard stories like these before.


A guy wished to escape from prison. Moments later he was magically, forcefully dragged through the prison bars, reducing the man into shredded pieces of raw meat.

A knave who, due to being jealous of his other friends' exploits with the local ladies, bought a scroll of Miracle and asked his evil trickster deity to make him more charismatic than his friends. The following morning, he found himself in a company of a dead man, a drooling catatonic mess of a man, and a babbling idiot.


In D&D world, almost all situations where I witness/hear such stories (from forums) are PC-induced. Even in my own RL gaming group, the regular DMs often give foreboding glances and snickers everytime any caster in his game would try to use Wish, Miracle, or any spell of that sort. Fortunately, I'm yet to hear/experience any sort of "gone horribly wrong/right" scenarios in my own RL group.

The Issue:
More often than not, the PC has to make a very specific wish, with all the correct wording, to get his desired results. The issue I have with these situations I heard from is that the RL Player may not have the RL Wisdom/Intelligence that his/her IC-Character have, to make the "correct/proper/specific" request. The not-so-smart guy who just wants to have some fun with his friends and just wants to play a being whose power and knowledge is beyond mortal ken will definitely have a higher chance to screw up such spells than a RL smarmy, witty, Magnificent Bastard who rolls a cleric and requests a Miracle.

I guess, in the end, it also extends to a wider aspect of gameplay. For example: The reserved nerdy RL guy may want to play an awesome Bard, but has no RP finesse to back his IC character's antics and savviness up.

So, what are your thoughts about this possible issue? As a DM, do/will you run things differently? How?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If it's one of the items specifically listed among what the spell can definitely do, or if it's basically the same power level as something listed, then it works out fine. If it's something above and beyond what's listed in the spell's 'safe' capabilities, then a DM should do everything he can to make it backfire in the worst/funniest possible way.

[TuggyNE]

Hmm, personally I'd make a practice of allowing relevant skill checks to make sure the wish is phrased correctly, depending on the source of the spell:

Efreeti/glabrezu/whatever: DC 25+ Profession: Lawyer, DC 30+ Knowledge: The Planes or Knowledge: Local; failure means they will seriously and deliberately pervert the wish unless it's on the safe list
Solar: DC 20+ Knowledge: Arcana, DC 25+ Knowledge: The Planes or Knowledge: Religion; failure means the Solar will allow your carelessness to bite you, but will not make any special attempt to ensure that happens
Artifact: relevant Knowledge skill, DC 20-30+ depending on the nature of the beast
Own spellcasting ability or magic item: DC 20+ Knowledge: Arcana
Ally: As above, and the caster may also make an appropriate skill check and warn you if the results seem weird or dangerous


Miracle would be similar, but failure more often means nothing happens, rather than unpleasant backfiring. (Unless the deific source is mean-spirited or a serious prankster.)

DCs are tentative, but seem reasonable for a few minutes' work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

-snip-

While I agree with this idea in principle, I firmly believe that if you're not casting the spell yourself there is no safe-list.

[navar100]

If it's one of the items specifically listed among what the spell can definitely do, or if it's basically the same power level as something listed, then it works out fine. If it's something above and beyond what's listed in the spell's 'safe' capabilities, then a DM should do everything he can to make it backfire in the worst/funniest possible way.

No.

Wish does not give the DM license to screw over a PC. A player has his own responsibility. A player should not use Wish to try to win D&D. The player tries to break the game; the DM puts a stop to it. That's where Wish perversion should take place. Note the word "may", not "must", in the section regarding Wishing beyond the guildelines. A Wish to escape from prison, as in the example, could simply be a Teleport. Even Greater Teleport. You might even agree with that.

[TuggyNE]

While I agree with this idea in principle, I firmly believe that if you're not casting the spell yourself there is no safe-list.

Well, I assume that glabrezu have other ways of messing things up for you that don't involve twisting your safe-list wish wording. So in practice you'd probably need to check over the contract as well. But other than that, yeah, a Solar who likes you and is working with you for their deity's ends should certainly be able to give you a nice solid wish from the list. Why not?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, I assume that glabrezu have other ways of messing things up for you that don't involve twisting your safe-list wish wording. So in practice you'd probably need to check over the contract as well. But other than that, yeah, a Solar who likes you and is working with you for their deity's ends should certainly be able to give you a nice solid wish from the list. Why not?

Like I said the last time this subject came up, there's the issue of communicating your desire to the wish granting creature that can really hamper things if the creature is at all inclined to twist the wish.

Your example of a solar being asked for a wish that will further his heavenly masters' ends would almost certainly net you just what you asked for.

Trying to coerce that solar into granting your wish or asking for an entirely selfish wish or particularly any wish that would likely result in evil being done would twist it to varying degrees even if the desired wish would normally be within the parameters of the safe-list.

Eg. wishing for an unholy bastard sword; the twist: he uses wish to conjure up an intelligent, unholy bastard sword that hates your guts or an unholy, backbiter bastard sword.

If you want your wish to be exactly what you want, either cut a reasonable deal with a creature that will be inclined to aid you, or stop being a cheap-skate and cast the spell yourself. Going outside the safe-list, in any case, is likely asking for trouble.

[Vultawk]

Frankly, I've never liked the "safe" options that Wish has listed in 3e. Wish has always been that spell, that's got all this power, but you need to be careful with it. If a PC dares to use Wish, then they should be expecting some sort of shenanigans. It's pretty much a genre standard.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The extent a wish can be used beyond it's safe zone I would leave up to individual groups and how well a DM would be able to handle what wish provided the players as a result. If the wish granted properly will clearly lead to the players overpowering the DMs every attempt at the game running smoothly, that wish should be halted dead in it's tracks.

However, this doesn't give the license for a DM to just troll the player with a wish spell. That's just mean spirited and honestly any DM who uses his position to restrict players, troll players and sabotage players because he thinks it's fun doesn't deserve to ever be a DM. If a DM is messing up a wish spell it should always be to preserve the games balance, not for their own amusement.

As for if a player who isn't good at wording things in real life but plays a very intelligent wizard should be leeway? I say yes. If you punish players for not being good at the same things their character are you basically saying "Screw you, you're not a smart wizard, go back to being a fighter where you belong" and that is just wrong.

One of the main enjoyments in d&d is to be able to play as characters you are nothing like in real life, to punish people for not being themselves as a character just kills the whole point of the game in the first place.

That being said, a player who in real life is very good with words but plays a horribly miss spoken character should be treated as a miss spoken character. Otherwise those players have an edge by making classes that cover where they're weak but whose own weaknesses can be covered by the player effectively giving the player a more powerful character.

More example, lets say someone in real life is very bright, well spoken, intelligent guy. Everyone just seems to naturally like him, he's pretty good at convincing people of things and is also a pretty big (and good) flirt with people.

Let's say this player was being your typical fighter, Charisma of 8, no training what so ever in Bluff or Diplomacy and his character is players as rash, quick to anger unlikable bastard. It's not fair to suddenly make this person the most likeable person there is simply because the player is good with words, that just gives the player an unfair advantage, and that one player who is normally bad with words and convincing people of his point but made a highly charismatic character hoping to be a social likeable person is now deprived of his characters role and strengths. That's just not cool.

On that note though, I'm not saying diplomacy rolls alone should get you through every time if you roll high enough. You should actually have a good point to back it up. For example, you could have a roll of 98 for Diplomacy but if what you're saying is "Hey man, why not let me rape your wife, eat your children in front of you, take everything you own and burn you alive just because you like me?" just ain't going to work. No matter how high your roll that guy is going to say "Hell no" and try to beat you to death with a crowbar.

If the player gets a good roll though, has a good point but is just the kind of person IRL who is bad at wording his points, take a few moments out of character to discuss with the player and clarify what he's mean so he's not always put on the spot when he tries to be his character.

[Corlindale]

In our group it usually depends a lot on the source of the Wish. Cast it yourself, or get it from a "generic" source (ring of three wishes, deck of many things, Luckblade, etc...) and you'll be fairly safe when sticking to the normal limits of the spell. No one has ever dared to go beyond the normal limits, though.

If you get the wish from an outsider, anything goes - depending strongly on that outsider's alignment, the circumstances of its summoning and its general attitude towards you.

For example, I recently got 3 wishes from a marid who wanted my character to use the final wish to set her free (yes, total Aladdin-style), so of course she had no incentive to screw me over with the initial two wishes. An Efreet forcibly called and compelled to serve would be another matter entirely - he would do all he could to twist the wish into something horrible.

[Gwazi Magnum]

In our group it usually depends a lot on the source of the Wish. Cast it yourself, or get it from a "generic" source (ring of three wishes, deck of many things, Luckblade, etc...) and you'll be fairly safe when sticking to the normal limits of the spell. No one has ever dared to go beyond the normal limits, though.

If you get the wish from an outsider, anything goes - depending strongly on that outsider's alignment, the circumstances of its summoning and its general attitude towards you.

For example, I recently got 3 wishes from a marid who wanted my character to use the final wish to set her free (yes, total Aladdin-style), so of course she had no incentive to screw me over with the initial two wishes. An Efreet forcibly called and compelled to serve would be another matter entirely - he would do all he could to twist the wish into something horrible.

I like that way a good amount.

What do you think would happen though if a self casted wish spell was taken beyond it's limits?

[ben-zayb]

I like that way a good amount.

What do you think would happen though if a self casted wish spell was taken beyond it's limits?
That presents an interesting question itself: to whom are you making wish? If you wish it for yourself, to yourself (the caster), then there should be no chance of messing your own wish up...

[Gwazi Magnum]

That presents an interesting question itself: to whom are you making wish? If you wish it for yourself, to yourself (the caster), then there should be no chance of messing your own wish up...

Ah, it seems we have entered the realm of d&d Philosophy.

If capable of casting it on yourself them realstically there should be no chance for failure, since we really just need to know your wish and not even say it.

But this leads to obvious game breakage by the players.
By that rule I'd say you always need to be wishing to a higher spirit/god and not to yourself.

[Regitnui]

Personally, if a player of mine tries to do anything potentially game-breaking or tries to be smart (not intelligent, more foolish), I fill the request in the least favourable way. Someone wants their weight in gold? It falls on them. You want a major NPC to die? You get transported to them to do it yourself.

That said, there's only so much you can do that as DM. The point of 'Wish' is to do amazing things, and if every wish they make is twisted, the wonder of the concept is lost somewhat.

[ericgrau]

Expected power or less, no backfire.
Beyond that, backfire.
Way beyond that, hilarious backfire.

I did have a cruel DM who was at least nice enough to say "don't even bother taking wish." It's when a DM gives no forewarning and makes every wish fail spectacularly that he's a jerk.

[Glimbur]

I like that way a good amount.

What do you think would happen though if a self casted wish spell was taken beyond it's limits?

There's also a 'partial fulfillment' clause in the wish spell, and it's great for wishes that are too strong. Wish to be ruler of the world? Well, that's outside the scope of a single Wish, but there are options ranging from disguising yourself as the current person who is closest to ruling the world, Dominate Person on as many people as a chain dominate can hit (~20), fabricating up a palace like the ruler of the world would have, or anything else that is equivalent to a 9th level spell and will help you get to ruling the world.

Metaphysically, this works quite well because Wish is a spell. Fireball can only do so much, no matter what you tell it to do. Illusions have restrictions too. Wish only has so much magical oomph behind it, so partial fulfillment is perfectly reasonable. As a final bonus, it makes the spell worth casting because it is helpful but not all-powerful.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There's also a 'partial fulfillment' clause in the wish spell, and it's great for wishes that are too strong. Wish to be ruler of the world? Well, that's outside the scope of a single Wish, but there are options ranging from disguising yourself as the current person who is closest to ruling the world, Dominate Person on as many people as a chain dominate can hit (~20), fabricating up a palace like the ruler of the world would have, or anything else that is equivalent to a 9th level spell and will help you get to ruling the world.

Metaphysically, this works quite well because Wish is a spell. Fireball can only do so much, no matter what you tell it to do. Illusions have restrictions too. Wish only has so much magical oomph behind it, so partial fulfillment is perfectly reasonable. As a final bonus, it makes the spell worth casting because it is helpful but not all-powerful.

That just opens the door for players to get everything they want if they just spend a few days camping to refresh their spells per day and use a ton of them on smaller things that build up to the big wish though.

[Vertharrad]

We've probably all heard stories like these before.


A guy wished to escape from prison. Moments later he was magically, forcefully dragged through the prison bars, reducing the man into shredded pieces of raw meat.

A knave who, due to being jealous of his other friends' exploits with the local ladies, bought a scroll of Miracle and asked his evil trickster deity to make him more charismatic than his friends. The following morning, he found himself in a company of a dead man, a drooling catatonic mess of a man, and a babbling idiot.


In D&D world, almost all situations where I witness/hear such stories (from forums) are PC-induced. Even in my own RL gaming group, the regular DMs often give foreboding glances and snickers everytime any caster in his game would try to use Wish, Miracle, or any spell of that sort. Fortunately, I'm yet to hear/experience any sort of "gone horribly wrong/right" scenarios in my own RL group.

The Issue:
More often than not, the PC has to make a very specific wish, with all the correct wording, to get his desired results. The issue I have with these situations I heard from is that the RL Player may not have the RL Wisdom/Intelligence that his/her IC-Character have, to make the "correct/proper/specific" request. The not-so-smart guy who just wants to have some fun with his friends and just wants to play a being whose power and knowledge is beyond mortal ken will definitely have a higher chance to screw up such spells than a RL smarmy, witty, Magnificent Bastard who rolls a cleric and requests a Miracle.

I guess, in the end, it also extends to a wider aspect of gameplay. For example: The reserved nerdy RL guy may want to play an awesome Bard, but has no RP finesse to back his IC character's antics and savviness up.

So, what are your thoughts about this possible issue? As a DM, do/will you run things differently? How?

It sounds like both could've been dealt with from the bullet points -
1)Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Planeshift, Word of Recall, etc.
2)+1 bonus to Charisma score

That being said I've been on the wrong side of a wish before, where I'm sure it wouldn't have mattered if we got it worded perfectly.

[tyckspoon]

That just opens the door for players to get everything they want if they just spend a few days camping to refresh their spells per day and use a ton of them on smaller things that build up to the big wish though.

If they're going to spend multiple thousands of XP in pursuit of whatever it is they are Wishing for (keeping in mind that you cannot de-level yourself via XP expenditure, so at some point they're going to have to take a break and go adventuring for more XP so they can keep Wishing..) well, I'm pretty okay with them getting something big out of that in the end. As long as they're not hacking the XP system with a Thought Bottle or level-loss shenanigans at the same time, anyway.

[Gwazi Magnum]

If they're going to spend multiple thousands of XP in pursuit of whatever it is they are Wishing for (keeping in mind that you cannot de-level yourself via XP expenditure, so at some point they're going to have to take a break and go adventuring for more XP so they can keep Wishing..) well, I'm pretty okay with them getting something big out of that in the end. As long as they're not hacking the XP system with a Thought Bottle or level-loss shenanigans at the same time, anyway.

XP costs can be substituted with gold though.

[Oscredwin]

That just opens the door for players to get everything they want if they just spend a few days camping to refresh their spells per day and use a ton of them on smaller things that build up to the big wish though.

Burning thousands of XP a day. As I recall the 3.5 XP tables, you can only make about 7-8 wished in between gaining XP pre-epic, and only if you're at the boarder of double leveling. Going from borderline level 21 to barely level 19 in XP totals is a very high cost (and rarely worth it).

[Keneth]

If you don't want wishes to backfire, then don't wish for dumb kittens. The safe list of effects exists for a reason. Either that, or receive the wish from a creature that doesn't want to see you suffer. If you make an efreeti grant you a wish, and it backfires, it's no one's fault but your own.

For as long as I've been playing D&D, I can't remember a single wish that had dire consequences in our groups. There were a few comically unfortunate ones, but no one ever got greedy enough to deserve cosmic retribution.

[userpay]

Oh lordy this has always been a fun thing in my RL D&D group though granted we play 1e with a mixing/converting of 2e and 3.5e. Basically with our group you have to be very careful with the wording in order to get what you want properly though at the same time I think our DM would think of several potential results and roll between them if the wording wasn't set in stone. That's not where the fun part came in, the fun part is where when we as players say wish or damn without referring to the spell. Cue roll check vs DM to see if wish/damn and whatever you said in relation to that comes true. 1) We learned very early not to abuse this (abuse always ends in poor results) so its mostly unintentional though sometimes for giggles if we do it intentionally 2) it's interesting to notice how often people say wish or damn without even thinking about it, even those that know better not to do it.

We always take it in good humor though because it adds an element of randomness to the game and we've had entire plotlines result from an inadvertent damn. For example one of the players accidentally damned... I think it was the Roman pantheon and one then of their remaining agents then stole an entire city from our, then starting deity, so we had to help him undamn the other pantheon.

[Glimbur]

That just opens the door for players to get everything they want if they just spend a few days camping to refresh their spells per day and use a ton of them on smaller things that build up to the big wish though.

All of my examples were lower level spells being used to further the goal. As a wizard that can cast Wish, they can also cast the lower level spells directly. The advantages of Wish, with partial fulfillment being the balancing mechanism, are
1) Even if you don't have the right spell prepared, you can Wish for it
2) You are asking the DM to help with ideas, which is sometimes useful
3) Depending, you might be able to fire off several lower level spells at once, which has advantages because actions in combat are quite valuable.

Powerful? Yes. But it's a ninth level spell with an XP cost, it should be useful.

There are ways to pay the XP cost apart from XP (Souls, Liquid Pain, probably something from BoED), but then the problem is not with Wish, but with the things that negate the cost. Similar to how metamagic isn't broken until you start stacking metamagic reducers on it.

[Keneth]

There are ways to pay the XP cost apart from XP

In Pathfinder, that's called Core. :smallbiggrin:

[ikosaeder]

Just to add my thoughts: If you cast a fireball in a small dungeon it will also backfire at you. Wish is much more powerful and could easily be abused. Therefore the DM has to be careful which wish he grants and how it is interpreted.
And to add a funny in-game story: Sometimes fulfilling the wish perfectly is backfire enough.
In one of my adventures, the party barely escaped from a dungeon without reaching their goal to kill the villain. Having lost one group member by a disintegration spell, they used "wish" to "bring him back to life". The wish was granted and the character reappeared at full health with all gear and at the exact same spot where he died, facing the BBEG alone.

[Flame of Anor]

XP costs can be substituted with gold though.

Sorry to be that guy, but you mean "XP costs can be replaced with gold" or "Gold can be substituted for XP costs".


And to add a funny in-game story: Sometimes fulfilling the wish perfectly is backfire enough.
In one of my adventures, the party barely escaped from a dungeon without reaching their goal to kill the villain. Having lost one group member by a disintegration spell, they used "wish" to "bring him back to life". The wish was granted and the character reappeared at full health with all gear and at the exact same spot where he died, facing the BBEG alone.

And? Did he die, run, or miraculously defeat the BBEG alone?

[Eldonauran]

If a player wishes for something on (or of similar power) the 'safe' list, I allow the wish to proceed without an ill affect. Should they wish for something that is outside this safe list, I roll a percentage die modified by Int + Wis Mod. If that roll fails (I roll under), the player's wish is granted without chance of backlash. If I roll higher, I modify the results of the wish as I see fit. I assume the persona of an impartial universe that just has its laws forcefully modified.

Regardless of how the wish went, if the player wishes outside the safe bounds of the spell, someone (or something) generally takes notice. Whether that is good, or bad, is just another plot hook.

[Fouredged Sword]

When a character casts wish and attempts to do something outside the safe list, the wish spell can try using the effects of the safe list. The effect wish CAN achieve is clearly listed. Pushing beyond that is by no means a sure thing. Maybe your with to kill character X simply creates a level 9 SOD effect as the wish spell imitates a lower level save or die effect with the wish save DC.

[Sugashane]

Hmm, personally I'd make a practice of allowing relevant skill checks to make sure the wish is phrased correctly, depending on the source of the spell:

Efreeti/glabrezu/whatever: DC 25+ Profession: Lawyer, DC 30+ Knowledge: The Planes or Knowledge: Local; failure means they will seriously and deliberately pervert the wish unless it's on the safe list
Solar: DC 20+ Knowledge: Arcana, DC 25+ Knowledge: The Planes or Knowledge: Religion; failure means the Solar will allow your carelessness to bite you, but will not make any special attempt to ensure that happens
Artifact: relevant Knowledge skill, DC 20-30+ depending on the nature of the beast
Own spellcasting ability or magic item: DC 20+ Knowledge: Arcana
Ally: As above, and the caster may also make an appropriate skill check and warn you if the results seem weird or dangerous


Miracle would be similar, but failure more often means nothing happens, rather than unpleasant backfiring. (Unless the deific source is mean-spirited or a serious prankster.)

DCs are tentative, but seem reasonable for a few minutes' work.

Actually very close to what I have used in my games. My characters actually employ a high ranking local Council elder (lawyer) and sage (knowledge: arcana) to work together to script sound and binding wordings to make sure they don't backfire. Even then, it depends on their rolls and how long the group is willing to let them work. The higher the rolls due to time, the more the fees, but I think they realized rushing is far more expensive than the alternative, as is being too greedy. lol