a question concerning Succubi

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders, it has been quite some time.

my books are not handy at the moment, and I'm not having any luck locating a definitive answer on the SRD

I pose to you all, a very specific question that I believe I know the answer too, but would like to be sure.

that question being....

"would detect magic pick up on a Succubi's use of 'change shape'?"

i.e., if the succubus in question were disguised as a mundane human (and had not been summoned to the prime material) would the use of this supernatural ability register to detect magic?

thankyou much.

[Waker]

The Detect Magic would pick up on the Succubus's Polymorph SLA (not sure why the SRD has Change Shape (Su) listed.)
In the case of Polymorph SLA the DC would be 19, while the Change Shape DC would be 21.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Detect Magic would pick up on the Succubus's Polymorph SLA (not sure why the SRD has Change Shape (Su) listed.)
In the case of Polymorph SLA the DC would be 19, while the Change Shape DC would be 21.

The SRD is updated with the errata released by WotC after the book was printed. Amongst the changes to the MM was that the succubus lost its (restricted) polymorph SLA and had it replaced with the change shape SU.

[TuggyNE]

Off-topic:
The SRD is updated with the errata released by WotC after the book was printed. Amongst the changes to the MM was that the succubus lost its (restricted) polymorph SLA and had it replaced with the change shape SU.

SRD veracity and reliability scores yet another victory! Boo-yeah! :smallcool:

[Jeff the Green]

The SRD is updated with the errata released by WotC after the book was printed. Amongst the changes to the MM was that the succubus lost its (restricted) polymorph SLA and had it replaced with the change shape SU.

Which isn't picked up by detect magic, right?

[Waker]

Which isn't picked up by detect magic, right?

Should still be picked up, it's a Su ability. As a nonspell effect, the DC would be 21 (15+6) (6 being half the Succubus caster level).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which isn't picked up by detect magic, right?

No. Detect magic would still register it as a magical effect with a caster level equal to the creature's HD. You just couldn't discern exactly what the effect was through spellcraft.

[JusticeZero]

But are you talking about detecting the change of shape, or randomly tripping the detect after the shape has been taken?

[TuggyNE]

But are you talking about detecting the change of shape, or randomly tripping the detect after the shape has been taken?

The latter; I'm not sure the former is even possible, since there's no components to discern, and it's not even a spell. (Detecting auras of non-spell effects in place is explicitly allowed and has its own DC, however.)

[Jeff the Green]

No. Detect magic would still register it as a magical effect with a caster level equal to the creature's HD. You just couldn't discern exactly what the effect was through spellcraft.

Where does it say that Su. abilities have magic auras? The detect magic description only describes them for spells (and by extension, SLAs) and magic items.

[Waker]

Where does it say that Su. abilities have magic auras? The detect magic description only describes them for spells (and by extension, SLAs) and magic items.

Taken from the description of Supernatural Abilities on the SRD.

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic...
So Su are definitely magical.

As for Detect Magic.

You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round
Presence or absence of magical auras.
2nd Round
Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round
The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)
So Detect Magic can detect anything magical and explicitly has rules for non-spell effects, which Change Shape would fall under.

[Slipperychicken]

Assuming you succeeded your Spellcraft check, you'd detect a moderate aura of transmutation.

You would be within your rights to be suspicious and even demand where that aura was coming from, though. After all, Succubi detect the same way :smallbiggrin:

[Duke of Urrel]

I agree with Waker.

I would only add that the Detect Magic spell wouldn't detect a supernatural ability (such as the Change Shape ability of a succubus) unless it was either presently in use (as active magic) or recently deactivated (as residual magic). Creatures with supernatural abilities don't have detectable magic auras unless they are presently carrying active or residual magic that they have bestowed upon themselves (or that something else has bestowed upon them). However, if a supernatural ability is always active, I believe it is always detectable as a magic aura, except when it is deactivated (as happens inside an Antimagic Field).

If you have a spell-like ability or the ability to cast spells, you have a magic aura that is detectable even when you are not presently carrying active or residual magic. However, this magic aura is detectable only to one who uses the Arcane Sight spell to detect it, and its appearance is different, because it indicates only your caster level and the type of magic you can create: arcane or divine (or both if you can create both). It reveals nothing about any school of magic you can use until you bestow magic upon yourself.

[Flickerdart]

Note that simply detecting a transmutation effect on someone is hardly grounds for suspicion of being a demon, as lots of common spells and items are transmutation effects.

RAW, it seems like Detect Magic won't actually give you the strength of the aura (since the Strength table only allows spells and magic items) which is kind of weird.

[big teej]

I agree with Waker.

I would only add that the Detect Magic spell wouldn't detect a supernatural ability (such as the Change Shape ability of a succubus) unless it was either presently in use (as active magic) or recently deactivated (as residual magic). Creatures with supernatural abilities don't have detectable magic auras unless they are presently carrying active or residual magic that they have bestowed upon themselves (or that something else has bestowed upon them). However, if a supernatural ability is always active, I believe it is always detectable as a magic aura, except when it is deactivated (as happens inside an Antimagic Field).

If you have a spell-like ability or the ability to cast spells, you have a magic aura that is detectable even when you are not presently carrying active or residual magic. However, this magic aura is detectable only to one who uses the Arcane Sight spell to detect it, and its appearance is different, because it indicates only your caster level and the type of magic you can create: arcane or divine (or both if you can create both). It reveals nothing about any school of magic you can use until you bestow magic upon yourself.

to clarify, since apparently I failed to do so.

the succubus in question is currently in disguise via change shape.

and the succubus in question was not summoned to the prime material, which I'm given to understand means that she/it does not inherently radiate magic.

[Duke of Urrel]

Note that simply detecting a transmutation effect on someone is hardly grounds for suspicion of being a demon, as lots of common spells and items are transmutation effects.

RAW, it seems like Detect Magic won't actually give you the strength of the aura (since the Strength table only allows spells and magic items) which is kind of weird.

It's true that the table includes only spells and magic items, but the spell's description says:

"3rd Round

The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)"

The boldface type is my own. This passage indicates that the Detect Magic spell shows the strength of auras carried by items or creatures. The passage also refers to nonspell effects, which is a broad concept, even if we limit it to magical effects (as the rest of the Detect Magic spell's description obliges us to do). Magical effects that are not spells include not only the nonspell effects of magic items, but also the nonspell effects of spell-like or supernatural abilities.

As I understand the rules (imperfectly, but I'm getting better), if a creature bestows magic upon itself using a spell-like or supernatural ability, it carries a magic aura. This aura may not have a spell level, but it always has a caster level (the creature's Hit-Dice level unless otherwise indicated), which can determine the strength of the aura, just as a magic item's caster level does. If all this is possible and not explicitly forbidden, then why disallow it?

[Flickerdart]

You can detect the nonspell aura. You can detect the nonspell aura's school. But the mention of nonspell auras is in the section that is talking about schools, not aura strength, and is not relevant to aura strength.

[Pickford]

Which isn't picked up by detect magic, right?

PHB pg. 181 on Special Abilities:

Medusas, dryads, harpies, and other magical creatures can create magical effects without being spellcasters.... These effects come in two types: spell-like and supernatural.

Only Extraordinary (Ex)/ Natural abilities are non-magical.

[Jeff the Green]

Of course, any succubus worth her salt is going to have (eternal) wands of magic aura and undetectable alignment on hand.

[Slipperychicken]

Note that simply detecting a transmutation effect on someone is hardly grounds for suspicion of being a demon, as lots of common spells and items are transmutation effects.


It's always good to ask. Safety measure, all kinds of nasties hide behind Transmutation.

[TuggyNE]

It's always good to ask. Safety measure, all kinds of nasties hide behind Transmutation.

Is there any school that's actually innocent, though? Maybe Abjuration auras look safe-ish, or perhaps Divination, but other than that no.

[Slipperychicken]

Is there any school that's actually innocent, though? Maybe Abjuration auras look safe-ish, or perhaps Divination, but other than that no.

When you consider all the implications, it makes you realize how people could get so superstitious and mistrustful of magic. Half the things trying to kill you or screw you over reek of magic.

Besides, since when was the last time someone in D&D used magic for something nice and not related to killing people and screwing them over.. like pulling a rabbit out of his hat, or plucking coins out from behind your ear, or making objects disappear, or guessing which card you're going to draw next? Magic has gone downhill, and something needs to be done about it.

[TuggyNE]

Magic has gone downhill, and something needs to be done about it.

Also, get off my lawn! Whiny rebellious kids and their "Wizards" and "Warlocks". Why, in my day, we had Magic-Users, and we liked them!

[big teej]

Of course, any succubus worth her salt is going to have (eternal) wands of magic aura and undetectable alignment on hand.

my response to this is two-fold, and utterly idiosyncratic

1) given the succubus in question is MEANT to be detected. this would be counter productive
2) the succubus in question is meant to illustrate the consequence's of the party's actions.


When you consider all the implications, it makes you realize how people could get so superstitious and mistrustful of magic. Half the things trying to kill you or screw you over reek of magic.

Besides, since when was the last time someone in D&D used magic for something nice and not related to killing people and screwing them over.. like pulling a rabbit out of his hat, or plucking coins out from behind your ear, or making objects disappear, or guessing which card you're going to draw next? Magic has gone downhill, and something needs to be done about it.


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Also, get off my lawn! Whiny rebellious kids and their "Wizards" and "Warlocks". Why, in my day, we had Magic-Users, and we liked them!


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