Awakened Tiny Trees

[Zovc]

In another thread, Mr. Wongburger was trying to find a tiny race with an LA of +0 and non-ugly stat modifiers. He's been getting a lot of help, probably because his character concept is so interesting, and helping him has made me stumble upon something interesting.

The Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) spell can be cast on animals, most people are aware of that. It gives them intelligence, wisdom, and a little charisma, in addition to two HD. However, Awaken can also animate trees:


An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm), except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s. (Awakened Objects stats are linked to in the quote.)

So, the Salix herbacea (http://forestry.about.com/od/treephysiology/p/smallest_tree.htm) is a tree that is probably worthy of the tiny size category. Tiny Awakened Objects have 1/2 CR, -- Level Adjustment, and -- Advancement. So if I'm not mistaken, they should get class hit dice if they are to gain levels.

So, my first question is, does it sound to you like a tiny, Awakened tree could be a level 1 adventurer?
If so, what sorts of cheese would you schlep onto a tiny tree? I've heard something in Mr. Wongburger's thread about the "Confound the Big Folk Feat."
Finally, is this too cheesy, or too awesome? Does the awesome sauce outweigh the cheese sauce?

[Rhynn]

Tiny Awakened Objects have 1/2 CR, -- Level Adjustment, and -- Advancement.

Unfortunately, LA — is not LA +0. — means they can't be PCs or cohorts.


So if I'm not mistaken, they should get class hit dice if they are to gain levels.

This point is slightly more confused in the SRD.


Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.

That suggests it applies to humanoids, maybe monstrous humanoids. Does it apply to other types? Unclear! "Humanoids" is not repeated in the paragraph.

[Zovc]

Unfortunately, LA — is not LA +0. — means they can't be PCs or cohorts.

But Awakening them seems like it could potentially change that. Having Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma seems like it could change that.

Edit: Yeah, that "Humanoids and Class Levels:" exerpt is really weird, because it starts its tangent with the word creatures.

[Gwazi Magnum]

In terms of RAW, that isn't possible.

But RAW is ridiculous and screws things up all the time so I don't see why it couldn't work.

It's a simple matter or re-skinning or taking 10-20 minutes with your DM to homebrew a new race.

[Miranius]

It depends on how complicated you want it to be.
First, stat out the tree-creature as a 1 hd critter, then think about its ecology.
Maybe healing by sinking down roots at a spot (as 8 hours rest for humans, but literally "rooted" to the spot...), bonus for long exposure to sunlight/water, drawbacks if it is lacking...
maybe 1/d speak to plants, more plant-based spells if you want to (which would rise LA of course)
plant-type maybe? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Plant_Type
favoured class druid?
vulnerability to fire? maybe 1 point hardness? let trees "grow" as they advance in HD (i have always wanted to incorporate creature-growth with character-growth. i think it is stupid that one can have a 1-hd minothaur who is also lvl 20 fighter....)

don`t get too bogged down in either RAW rules or too comlicated constructions, keep it fun and usable

[Gwazi Magnum]

maybe 1/d speak to plants

Why should it only be 1/day?
I would rule it makes sense they can always talk with plants.

Maybe add something like they always know Druidic.

[Scow2]

(i have always wanted to incorporate creature-growth with character-growth. i think it is stupid that one can have a 1-hd minothaur who is also lvl 20 fighter....)

How do you have a 1HD/20-level fighter?

That said, I do like races such as Dragonborn and Raptoran that gain racial abilities and "Grow" as they level up.

[Flickerdart]

But Awakening them seems like it could potentially change that. Having Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma seems like it could change that.
Plenty of things with LA-- have Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom scores.

[Scow2]

Bonsai Banzai?!

[137beth]

Plenty of things with LA-- have Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom scores.

So what? There's no reason a tiny tree wouldn't be fun or make sense as a PC race, unless your DM is a rules lawyer.

The biggest issue I can see is that plant immunities do give you a lot--possibly enough to be worth a nonzero LA. Still, no racial HD is good, and with LA buyoff these should be playable. And, more to the point, quite fun.

[Flickerdart]

So what? There's no reason a tiny tree wouldn't be fun or make sense as a PC race, unless your DM is a rules lawyer.
Those are not the criteria for a playable race. Having listed LA is a criteria for a playable race. Yes, the DM can ad-hoc it an LA, but that's always true, and thus not interesting.

[karkus]

Just build it around, say, halflings and/or gnomes. If you want it to be a PC race, then you may have to rule it so as to be equal to the others. Set low base speeds and whatever else sounds logical for a tiny tree, and maybe give them resistances to disease, poisons, and suffocation (that last one they might be mostly immune to, though...).

[137beth]

Those are not the criteria for a playable race. Having listed LA is a criteria for a playable race. Yes, the DM can ad-hoc it an LA, but that's always true, and thus not interesting.

I can't tell what you mean by "those" in your first sentence. The only thing I referred to as a "criteria" in my post was "fun to play and advance." And yes, those that is the only criterion for what can be playable in a game.

[Flickerdart]

I can't tell what you mean by "those" in your first sentence. The only thing I referred to as a "criteria" in my post was "fun to play and advance." And yes, those that is the only criterion for what can be playable in a game.
I can see that you aren't actually interested in a discussion about the rules of the game.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I can see that you aren't actually interested in a discussion about the rules of the game.

*Points below*


So what? There's no reason a tiny tree wouldn't be fun or make sense as a PC race, unless your DM is a rules lawyer.

Obviously you aren't interested in making d&d a fun and interesting experience and would rather be as Ben says, a rules lawyer.

[13_CBS]

*Points below*



Obviously you aren't interested in making d&d a fun and interesting experience and would rather be as Ben says, a rules lawyer.

I thought the discussion here is whether or not a player playing an Awakened tiny tree as a PC character is legal according to the rules, not whether or not it was awesome and a cool idea :smallconfused:

I wish I could come up with something as awesome as playing a tiny samurai tree, but alas we're debating whether, according to the rules, doing that through Awakening a tiny tree would work. As Flickerdart points out, a DM could easily just allow it to happen, though that point is also kind of moot.

[Flickerdart]

*Points below*



Obviously you aren't interested in making d&d a fun and interesting experience and would rather be as Ben says, a rules lawyer.
A rules lawyer tries to twist rules interpretations to make something unorthodox happen. Saying "the game rules do not allow LA-- creatures as PCs" is not rules lawyering by a long shot, nor does it somehow prevent D&D from being fun and interesting.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I thought the discussion here is whether or not a player playing an Awakened tiny tree as a PC character is legal according to the rules, not whether or not it was awesome and a cool idea :smallconfused:

I wish I could come up with something as awesome as playing a tiny samurai tree, but alas we're debating whether, according to the rules, doing that through Awakening a tiny tree would work. As Flickerdart points out, a DM could easily just allow it to happen, though that point is also kind of moot.

He originally referenced the rules because typically you'd want to start with working that way if possible.

But he never denied or argued outside of it yet, and to be fair we're talking about a PC of a certain subrace pretty much. Not anything that would break the games balance.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A rules lawyer tries to twist rules interpretations to make something unorthodox happen. Saying "the game rules do not allow LA-- creatures as PCs" is not rules lawyering by a long shot, nor does it somehow prevent D&D from being fun and interesting.

Rule's enforcer then if you need that specific wording.

The point is a player is asking for a certain concept to work in his game, that would be fun and interesting and wouldn't break the game in any sense and you're shooting it down because of what one sentence in a book says.

And that does make d&d less fun and interesting for players when imagination and cool concepts can be shut down because someone is married to a couple of words.

[Flickerdart]

Rule's enforcer then if you need that specific wording.

The point is a player is asking for a certain concept to work in his game, that would be fun and interesting and wouldn't break the game in any sense and you're shooting it down because of what one sentence in a book says.

And that does make d&d less fun and interesting for players when imagination and cool concepts can be shut down because someone is married to a couple of words.
Hold on there, tiger. What in the nine hells are you talking about? All I said - which caused 137ben to pounce upon me - is that just because a creature has all three mental stats does not automatically make it playable. In my very next post after that one I say that a DM can ad-hoc an LA to the tree if someone wants to play it. What, exactly, am I shooting down again?

[13_CBS]

Rule's enforcer then if you need that specific wording.

The point is a player is asking for a certain concept to work in his game, that would be fun and interesting and wouldn't break the game in any sense and you're shooting it down because of what one sentence in a book says.

And that does make d&d less fun and interesting for players when imagination and cool concepts can be shut down because someone is married to a couple of words.

...but again, I don't think Flickerdart is necessarily saying you SHOULDN'T do what the OP is proposing, only that it's not LEGAL.. :smallconfused: (And he also did technically say that simply having the DM fiat it so that players can play LA -- races "isn't interesting", but I suspect he was merely commenting that solving these sorts of obstacles through simple DM fiat is intellectually unstimulating.)

Edit: Swordsage'd by Flickerdart himself.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hold on there, tiger. What in the nine hells are you talking about? All I said - which caused 137ben to pounce upon me - is that just because a creature has all three mental stats does not automatically make it playable. In my very next post after that one I say that a DM can ad-hoc an LA to the tree if someone wants to play it. What, exactly, am I shooting down again?

Yes, but then you claimed doing such a thing was just not fun or interesting pretty much saying "Well, you could ignore the rules. But you shouldn't because then it won't be as much fun".

[Flickerdart]

I suspect he was merely commenting that solving these sorts of obstacles through simple DM fiat is intellectually unstimulating.
Precisely. Answering "how can I do X" with "DM can houserule it" adds literally nothing to the conversation, because the DM can houserule just about anything.


Yes, but then you claimed doing such a thing was just not fun or interesting pretty much saying "Well, you could ignore the rules. But you shouldn't because then it won't be as much fun".
That's not what I said. See above.

[137beth]

Hold on there, tiger. What in the nine hells are you talking about? All I said - which caused 137ben to pounce upon me - is that just because a creature has all three mental stats does not automatically make it playable. In my very next post after that one I say that a DM can ad-hoc an LA to the tree if someone wants to play it. What, exactly, am I shooting down again?

Ah, I see. As I pointed out, I found your comments ambiguous. I said that playing an awakened tiny tree would be fun and balanced. I made no references whatsoever to having an intelligence/wisdom/charisma score. You quoted me saying that "those" are not the criterion to be playable. Since the only things I mentioned in the quoted post were "fun" and "balanced", I assumed you were saying that "being fun and balanced are not the criterion to be playable." I did not realize that your pronoun "those" referred to things which were not present either in my post you quoted or in your own post, and I don't think you should have expected me to come up with that interpretation.


That's not what I said. See above.
You specifically said

Yes, the DM can ad-hoc it an LA, but that's always true, and thus not interesting.
I think you meant "it isn't interesting in a hypothetical discussion about whether something is technically allowable under RAW", but your post could be interpreted as saying "if you need to use house rules to make a character then your character is not interesting." Which is apparently how Gwazi interpreted it.

[Shrikethrush]

Woah woah woah.

If you want an LA +0 tiny race, toss the Dungeonbred template on a Halfling, or play the very smallest Forest Gnome (subrace) allowable by the rules. If you're playing a Pathfinder, Young solves your problems, and actually nets you negative LA for bonus stuff.

As for playing a tiny tree, there's two templates I can think up, but neither are LA +0:

"Wood Elemental Creature" is LA +5

"Woodling" is LA +3

Your best bet, I think, would be through the Savage Species progression for Treant.

I'm not sure, but I think you could take the Treant race with the Savage Species progression, and never take a level in your race - just take the base benefits - and then toss on Dungeonbred to be Small.

Reduce Person can't affect you, but the Psionic power Compression can make you Tiny. This means you could craft yourself an item of continuous Compression for 4,000 GP, cheaper of course with feats and other things.

Then you'd be a tiny tree character.

[13_CBS]

Woah woah woah.

If you want an LA +0 tiny race, toss the Dungeonbred template on a Halfling, or play the very smallest Forest Gnome (subrace) allowable by the rules. If you're playing a Pathfinder, Young solves your problems, and actually nets you negative LA for bonus stuff.

As for playing a tiny tree, there's two templates I can think up, but neither are LA +0:

"Wood Elemental Creature" is LA +5

"Woodling" is LA +3

Your best bet, I think, would be through the Savage Species progression for Treant.

I'm not sure, but I think you could take the Treant race with the Savage Species progression, and never take a level in your race - just take the base benefits - and then toss on Dungeonbred to be Small.

Reduce Person can't affect you, but the Psionic power Compression can make you Tiny. This means you could craft yourself an item of continuous Compression for 4,000 GP, cheaper of course with feats and other things.

Then you'd be a tiny tree character.

The OP didn't mention this, but Mr. Wongburger on the other thread needed to find a way to be Tiny from Level 1, with no LA whatsoever. I forget whether or not Dragon material was allowed.

[Miranius]

Nice tangent everybody going on here... :smallyuk:
Anyways, what i meant with the minotaur/fighter is that the savage-species progression allowed to you play the first level of any monster (in game terms a "baby") who also has epic or above character levels.

Kind of like theorethical mathematician who just learned to crawl.... I don`t like it, that`s all.

[Rhynn]

Nice tangent everybody going on here... :smallyuk:
Anyways, what i meant with the minotaur/fighter is that the savage-species progression allowed to you play the first level of any monster (in game terms a "baby") who also has epic or above character levels.

I thought you had to finish your monster class progression before you could take levels in any other class?

[zlefin]

The RAW is glitched; that is the RAW themselves are illegal. It says an animated tree would have stats as an animated object except for mental ones; but animated objects have a - for their con score; while all lifeforms have a con score, even immobile plants have a con score (e.g. shrieker)
This isn't a case of specific beats general, because as a life form a tree should clearly have a con score if it's not being treated as an object.

Therefore the RAW itself for awaken is poorly written with regards to trees, and needs some interpretation to function at all.

[Miranius]

i`m not sure to be honest, but if that is so i don`t see the reason why such breakdowns should exist in the first place.

[Rhynn]

i`m not sure to be honest, but if that is so i don`t see the reason why such breakdowns should exist in the first place.

Well, AFAIK their explicit purpose is to let you play monsters from level 1 onward.

[137beth]

The RAW is glitched; that is the RAW themselves are illegal. It says an animated tree would have stats as an animated object except for mental ones; but animated objects have a - for their con score; while all lifeforms have a con score, even immobile plants have a con score (e.g. shrieker)
This isn't a case of specific beats general, because as a life form a tree should clearly have a con score if it's not being treated as an object.

Therefore the RAW itself for awaken is poorly written with regards to trees, and needs some interpretation to function at all.
Yea, in general, the rules for turning objects into creatures are pretty iffy. Intelligent magic items have wisdom and charisma scores, so they are technically creatures, not objects. But all creatures have hit-dice, and intelligent magic items don't, so...:smallconfused:

[Stea1k]

EVEN IF you found a way to legitimately play a tree from lvl 1 onward, how would you speak? Trees have no mouth, which means that unless you take a few levels in a spell casting class and used ventriloquism/send/any other communication spell you would have no way to vocally communicate with anyone other than plants and druids. I suppose you could claim that the rustling of the leaves could create a sound similar to speech, but there would be multiple limitations in the event that autumn hit.

The easiest method I can think of would be that you shape the words with your limbs.

[137beth]

EVEN IF you found a way to legitimately play a tree from lvl 1 onward, how would you speak? Trees have no mouth, which means that unless you take a few levels in a spell casting class and used ventriloquism/send/any other communication spell you would have no way to vocally communicate with anyone other than plants and druids. I suppose you could claim that the rustling of the leaves could create a sound similar to speech, but there would be multiple limitations in the event that autumn hit.

The easiest method I can think of would be that you shape the words with your limbs.
Depends. Are you playing an evergreen tree:smalltongue:?

But more to the point, if we're talking RAW, having an intelligence score does a lot. Does it make sense that someone with no mouth could speak common? No. But you could easily either
1. say that the Int bonus languages don't specify that it only works on creatures with mouths, which is silly, but RAW, or
2. rule that animate object should give a sentient creature with sufficiently high INT a mouth/ability to speak without a mouth, which is not RAW, but makes sense.

[unseenmage]

Awaken just gives the subject a language. Period.

If you're statting up your own race of "awakened-like" tiny trees then you give them a mouth as a racial trait.

Just sayin'.

[Deophaun]

Keep in mind, animated objects have hardness. An animated tiny tree would have a hardness of 5, which is probably going to be worth some LA. Even better than DR, as it applies to energy attacks.
That hardness could be even higher if the druid got someone to cast hardening before awaken