[PF] Cleave

[Jeivar]

I'm a little unclear on the rules:

If I have a Barbarian at level six (and therefore have two attacks) and use the Cleave feat, can I only make a single attack which then chains into an adjacent enemy if the attack connects? Or can I make my regular two attacks, and chain both of them into an adjacent enemy?

If it's the former, it really seems I shouldn't bother with the feat and just use my two attacks as normal.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'm a little unclear on the rules:

If I have a Barbarian at level six (and therefore have two attacks) and use the Cleave feat, can I only make a single attack which then chains into an adjacent enemy if the attack connects? Or can I make my regular two attacks, and chain both of them into an adjacent enemy?

If it's the former, it really seems I shouldn't bother with the feat and just use my two attacks as normal.
Using Cleave is a standard so you get two attacks period however.
Which is better two attacks at +6/+1 or at +6/+6? obviously the latter especially when you put power attack on top of it.

Additionally you could move(but not charge) and cleave to attack two foes. Rather then charging and attacking once.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Cleave is a standard action, so you can't use as a part of a full attack or concentrate on one target, but unlike a full attack, you can use it in the same round you move and you make both attacks with your full BA.

So it has some advantages, some disadvantages; whether it's worth using depends on the situation.

[Jeivar]

Using Cleave is a standard so you get two attacks period however.
Which is better two attacks at +6/+1 or at +6/+6? obviously the latter especially when you put power attack on top of it.



Yeah, but going without Cleave doesn't require the first attack to hit before I can attempt the second one. And if fighting one-on-one Cleave is pretty useless, which is why I'm wondering if my feat isn't better spent on something else.

[StreamOfTheSky]

And even if you are facing 2 enemies, focusing fire is best due to critical existence failure (enemy fights just as strong at 1 hp as at 100 hp). Cleave is just a bad feat. It's kind decent at very low levels, but quickly becomes teh suck. If you're a Fighter, you could take it and retrain it at level 4, I suppose.

[NinjaInTheRye]

Yeah, but going without Cleave doesn't require the first attack to hit before I can attempt the second one. And if fighting one-on-one Cleave is pretty useless, which is why I'm wondering if my feat isn't better spent on something else.

Yes, it's probably better spent elsewhere. The times where it's actually a good use of an action beyond low levels are just too situational especially for a Barbarian, who has better uses for his feats (aka taking Extra Rage Power).

If you're a Fighter it might be worth taking with your first or second level Fighter Feat since you can then swap it out at level 4 or 8 for something better.

[Chained Birds]

And even if you are facing 2 enemies, focusing fire is best due to critical existence failure (enemy fights just as strong at 1 hp as at 100 hp). Cleave is just a bad feat. It's kind decent at very low levels, but quickly becomes teh suck. If you're a Fighter, you could take it and retrain it at level 4, I suppose.

While Cleave sucks, the Cleaving feats that come afterwards (like Cleaving Finish) can be worth it.

[Sylthia]

It would be nice to house-rule it so that it good be used in conjunction with a full-round attack once per round. It seems like they are out to get martials sometimes.

[StreamOfTheSky]

While Cleave sucks, the Cleaving feats that come afterwards (like Cleaving Finish) can be worth it.

Cleaving Finish is just 3E cleave with a worthless feat requirement (PF's Cleave) tacked on.

Par for the course in PF when it comes to martial feats, I suppose...

[navar100]

Cleave is fine. When you're only getting one attack anyway, it's nice to be able to attack two opponents. It's not a must have but neither is it never have. It's an improvement over 3E's version since you don't need to drop the first opponent.

The use of Cleaving Finish is perhaps more campaign specific. It's useful to get rid of bad guy cannon fodder. If the DM doesn't use them, then the feat isn't appropriate for that campaign. That doesn't make it never appropriate ever everywhere.

Certainly some feats are stronger than others. However, it is not a requirement for a feat to be used every time all the time always to be a good feat to have. It's quite fine if a feat is only used occasionally, where occasionally is a subjective amount of time.

[Spuddles]

Cleave is fine. When you're only getting one attack anyway, it's nice to be able to attack two opponents. It's not a must have but neither is it never have. It's an improvement over 3E's version since you don't need to drop the first opponent.

The use of Cleaving Finish is perhaps more campaign specific. It's useful to get rid of bad guy cannon fodder. If the DM doesn't use them, then the feat isn't appropriate for that campaign. That doesn't make it never appropriate ever everywhere.

Certainly some feats are stronger than others. However, it is not a requirement for a feat to be used every time all the time always to be a good feat to have. It's quite fine if a feat is only used occasionally, where occasionally is a subjective amount of time.

It's a horrible feat. Compare to something like Create Pit or Wayang Spell Hunter. The only thing that comes close for mundanes is bewildering koan.

I really don't understand why PF hosed fighters with so many bogus feat requirements and action costs. PF cleave would be worthwhile if it let you make an additional attack as a swift action if your first one landed. That would be neat.

[Jeivar]

Yeah, I'm going without Cleave. How is this for a fairly well-rounded 10th level Barbarian:

Power Attack, for smashing.
Furious Focus, for smashing accurately.
Extra Rage, for smashing for longer.
Cornugon Smash, for scaring weaklings by smashing them.
Shield of Swing, for tanking against multiple weaklings.
Improved Overrun, for maneuverability on the battlefield coupled with the Overbearing Advance rage power.

[NinjaInTheRye]

Yeah, I'm going without Cleave. How is this for a fairly well-rounded 10th level Barbarian:

Power Attack, for smashing.
Furious Focus, for smashing accurately.
Extra Rage, for smashing for longer.
Cornugon Smash, for scaring weaklings by smashing them.
Shield of Swing, for tanking against multiple weaklings.
Improved Overrun, for maneuverability on the battlefield coupled with the Overbearing Advance rage power.

Well what feats you take largely depend on what you want to do and which Rage Powers you're planning to take.

In general Extra Rage isn't much use beyond low levels unless your group just trends toward extended combats.

Furious Focus is, also, limited in use after low levels, your first attack should be hitting anyway (and a Barbarian can take Reckless Abandon Rage Power to negate the penalty to Power Attack).

Shield of Swings seems like a bad idea, IMO. You're better off just doing full damage and killing the enemy faster.

--

Many Rage Powers are flat out better than feats, so Extra Rage Power gets taken a lot.

Iron Will is good to help keep your Barbarian from being Dominated.

If you're going to get Spell Sunder Rage Power then, obviously, you'll want Improved Sunder.

If you want to do a lot of Intimidating you can take Intimidating Prowess to add your STR to Intimidate checks.

If you're going for Beast Totem (which you should, because Pounce is awesome), you can take Improved Overrun and Charge Through) to help blow past minions to get to the real target.

[Killer Angel]

PF cleave is better (aka less horrible) than 3.5 cleave.

But this is, indeed, the proper course of action:

I'm going without Cleave.

[Jeivar]

Well what feats you take largely depend on what you want to do and which Rage Powers you're planning to take.


I was thinking Animal Fury, purely for fun, Auspicious Mark as a little ace in the hole, Clear Mind to resist mind effects, Overbearing Assault as mention previously and Flesh Wound to save my ass in a pinch.