Archery Build Question

[Rakoa]

This seems pretty straightforward (by which I mean, I think I know the answer but I want to check anyway), because this seems a tad ridiculous.

One of my players is an archer. A Cleric of Ehlonna, to be precise. As an archer, he has a Longbow of Splitting, essentially doubling his damage output. Combine this with Rapid Shot and a Raptor Arrow, and he is dealing double Bane damage on every shot, with an extra shot at a minus two.

Because he has Zen Archery, his attack bonus is pretty damn high. So can, using Rapid Shot, hit three times on a full attack with each hit dealing 2d8+4d6+4 points of damage. That is insane damage. And to my knowledge, the Splitting enhancement doesn't say that the arrows created from the splitting disappear, so he can generate Raptor Arrows all day by firing his bow.

Can someone let me know if any of this is not legal?

[Matticussama]

Two questions.

One, how is the player doing double Bane damage? That seems to be where a large part of the character's damage output is coming from.

Two, what level is the player? That is pretty good damage for mid level play, but not truly overwhelming compared to some other optimized damage builds.


If you're having a lot of problems with the player's damage output bringing down your encounters too quickly, then consider (1) throwing enemies who the player won't get their Bane bonus against, (2) spells like Wind Wall which grant protection from ranged attacks (or spells like Blink which give miss chance against all atttacks), and (3) anti-magic fields since they would negate the magical damage from both spells and weapons.

[Seiko]

raptorian arrows + splitting does not = doubling your arrow count.

In other words, he shoots 1 raptorian arrow, 2 arrows hit the target.
1 arrow returns to him.

If he only has 1 raptor arrow, at the end of combat he will still have 1.

[Miranius]

This is not exactly overpowered. As long as he is not using pre-enchated ammunition / poisons / ungodly amounts of sneak attack dice / spell storing arrows....

If it irks you, just send a monk with the feats for arrow deflection and arrow-returning against him and then (maybe) graciously allow him to abort his first full attack before he kills himself ;)

[WhatBigTeeth]

Can someone let me know if any of this is not legal?
The only part that might not be legit is that you don't mention enhancement bonuses to the bow. Assuming he has at least +1 before the splitting enhancement, it sounds like he's got it right. Normally a cleric archer high enough level to afford a splitting bow would have a more damage bonuses, but you've correctly summarized how the abilities work.

It probably doesn't matter unless he's reselling, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to rule like Seiko said. (The rules do support the infinite arrow thing, but I doubt you want infinite creation combos in the game, and as long as the cleric has enough to make a full attack, I doubt the player cares unless he's abusing it.)

[Rakoa]

It isn't really that big of a deal. I was more just curious because I had never seen something like this before. He has pretty decent damage stacking. Where he has Knowledge Devotion and the Celerity Domain, his main combo is to get about +5 from that, use Haste from his Celerity Domain for another attack and Divine Power for maximum BAB.

With a full-round action, he can get 5 attacks at +18/+18/+18/+13/+8, each doing 2d8+4d6+8 damage, or an average of 31 damage per shot at level 12. Not really overpowered but interesting synergy, and definitely more than I've seen from an archer build before.

[Curmudgeon]

As an archer, he has a Longbow of Splitting, essentially doubling his damage output. Combine this with Rapid Shot and a Raptor Arrow, and he is dealing double Bane damage on every shot, with an extra shot at a minus two.
...
Can someone let me know if any of this is not legal?
It's legal to have these things, but the operation is far from legal. You just need to pay strict attention to the two bits of rules text.

Splitting creates, in mid-flight, two identical arrows with the same non-Splitting properties as the original arrow fired. However, neither of these is the arrow which was fired from the bow, because that original breaks into two. Only the Raptor Arrow which was fired can return at the beginning of the next round. And only a Raptor Arrow which was used (which neither of these were) will avoid destruction. So, both arrows will follow the normal (non-Raptor) rules: destroyed if they hit, and a 50% chance for destruction if they miss. Even if your archer can scurry to retrieve any missed shots, more than likely 1-2 uses will lead to no more Raptor Arrow.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm, sounds neat. But kinda surprised that it's still effective. I mean 31 damage isn't that great for DPS though good for a bow user. But most encounters in typical adventures are very "Anti-Archer". Initial Engagement range is WELL within Longbow Range, typically where they will be hitting the archer in melee in a single round.

But still. Kinda interesting. Not sure how Bane is getting doubled either. I presume since he's reliably getting Bane damage he's using Greater Magic Weapon on his ammunition to give it the appropriate Bane on demand? Though if he's doing things like that I'd be surprised if he wasn't adding more damage (And more dependable) even with something as simple as stacking up Flaming, Shocking, Icy, etc, properties on the arrows.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Splitting creates, in mid-flight, two identical arrows with the same non-Splitting properties as the original arrow fired.
Just so we're clear, you're standing by the interpretation that the arrows share the properties of the arrow (except splitting) without behaving as if they had the properties of the arrow (such as returning to the user)?

[kiryoku]

o-o well I personaly like the tripple combo of the one artificer spell. it letts you cast three first level spells for the price of one third level. So I do bane(dragon), magebane (dragons are casters), Dragon doom. for a total of +4 enchantment, +4D6 bane, and going from +1D6 at large to +4D6 at Colossal dragons. Now thats added onto what ever the weapon already has.If it has +5 it means you would have a +9 weapon bypassing any DR it might have even if its from the epic handbook. Thats not saying you could hit it though just that if you did. It would get hurt a little.

[Curmudgeon]

Just so we're clear, you're standing by the interpretation that the arrows share the properties of the arrow (except splitting)
Your terminology isn't particularly clear, but I think that's correct. Splitting causes the original arrow to break into two arrows which are identical to each other, and each of which would have all the same properties as the original arrow fired minus any Splitting property.

without behaving as if they had the properties of the arrow (such as returning to the user)? All the weapon properties of the original arrow would be retained. However, being the actual arrow fired, as opposed to an identical copy of that missile, is not a D&D property; it is, however, a requirement for a Raptor Arrow relic to avoid destruction on impact and return the next round.

[Matticussama]

This is one of those issues that spring from new materials being added without regard for how they would interact; in this case, the splitting property v.s the Raptor Arrow relic. The main thing is that, at the end of the round, the Cleric should not have any more Raptor arrows than s/he started with. Otherwise, players may (incorrectly) assume that firing their 1 Raptor Arrow results in multiple new permanent arrows due to the splitting property. Splitting should not result in an infinitely increasing number of new Raptor Arrows.

[TuggyNE]

This is one of those issues that spring from new materials being added without regard for how they would interact; in this case, the splitting property v.s the Raptor Arrow relic. The main thing is that, at the end of the round, the Cleric should not have any more Raptor arrows than s/he started with. Otherwise, players may (incorrectly) assume that firing their 1 Raptor Arrow results in multiple new permanent arrows due to the splitting property. Splitting should not result in an infinitely increasing number of new Raptor Arrows.

On the other hand, whatever strict RAW says, splitting shouldn't result in a rapidly decreasing number of Raptor Arrows either!

One for the dysfunctional thread, I guess.

[Hanuman]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-adamantine

[JusticeZero]

Good archery builds are decent at delivering damage. This is good because that's about all they can deliver. Also, cleric.

[Matticussama]

On the other hand, whatever strict RAW says, splitting shouldn't result in a rapidly decreasing number of Raptor Arrows either!

One for the dysfunctional thread, I guess.

It wouldn't result in a decreasing number of Raptor Arrows; if you fired 1 Raptor Arrow at the beginning of the round, you would end up with 1 Raptor Arrow at the end of the round. Splitting would copy every aspect except the Raptor Arrow's unique, relic abilities. It is the Raptor Arrow's relic ability that keeps it from being destroyed after being used, unlike normal arrows which are destroyed when fired.

The main thing that it comes down to is that the Raptor Arrow is a Relic; as stated in Magic Item Compendium pg. 222, players cannot create Relics and in general can only add magical properties which are in theme with the Relic. With only a small leap of logic, it can be inferred that this also applies to Splitting not being able to create a new relic either. So in this instance, the Raptor Arrow's specific relic status trumps the general duplication of every arrow property.

[Rakoa]

For those who were asking about double Bane damage, the Raptor Arrows (to my knowledge) have the Bane property on whatever they hit. If it splits, that is double bane damage (or 4d6+4). It was likely my referring to is as "double bane damage" that was confusing. That could have been worded better.

[Qwertystop]

It wouldn't result in a decreasing number of Raptor Arrows; if you fired 1 Raptor Arrow at the beginning of the round, you would end up with 1 Raptor Arrow at the end of the round. Splitting would copy every aspect except the Raptor Arrow's unique, relic abilities. It is the Raptor Arrow's relic ability that keeps it from being destroyed after being used, unlike normal arrows which are destroyed when fired.

The main thing that it comes down to is that the Raptor Arrow is a Relic; as stated in Magic Item Compendium pg. 222, players cannot create Relics and in general can only add magical properties which are in theme with the Relic. With only a small leap of logic, it can be inferred that this also applies to Splitting not being able to create a new relic either. So in this instance, the Raptor Arrow's specific relic status trumps the general duplication of every arrow property.

The other issue here is whether Splitting makes a copy of the original arrow and leaves the original as-is, or splits the original arrow into two (basically destroying it and making two copies). In the former case, you'd be left with a non-Splitting Raptor Arrow. In the latter, you'd lose your Raptor Arrow because, as you say, you can't make a new one so you'd end up with two non-Raptor arrows.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The "fair" ruling would be the one where your number of Raptor Arrows stays the same.
Having the arrows not work with the splitting property is an option as well, but it's not like archery is all that overpowered to begin with. Depends on your tables level of optimization i guess.
Having splitting actually duplicate the arrows is obviously out unless you give all players unlimited gold anyway.

If you rule that splitting destroys your players shiny relic arrows you might as well ban them outright instead of being a jerk about it.

[prufock]

Can someone let me know if any of this is not legal?

Well, the one hitch might be the way the abilities are worded. The splitting enchantment makes the arrow split "mid-flight." The raptor arrow "flies up to 400 feet through the air, and restrings itself in the bow from which it was fired."

So the question is "were both arrows fired from the bow?" I don't think the RAW for these items really conclusively settles that question, so I think DM discretion is warranted. This kind of exploit would never fly in my game.

[TuggyNE]

This kind of exploit would never fly in my game.

So to speak. :smallamused:

[Arc_knight25]

How many Raptor Arrows does he have?

If he gets 3 attacks does that mean he has found 3 Raptor Arrows?

(The description of the Raptor Arrow says that there is only 5 in existence so having 3 of 5 is pretty good.)

I personally would rule that each arrow would split. And for colour both halves of the now spilt Raptor arrow rejoin mid flight returning to the player and restring to the bow. It is up to you if when they pull themselves out of the target if they would do just the 1d8 or 2d8 since of the split. I would allow the 2d8 since this damage doesn't get any bonuses. And DR will more then likely absorb it.

[Esgath]

He would have to have as many raptor arrows as he has attacks to benefit from the arrows, because returning arrows only come back at the end of the round in which they were fired.
Btw relics can be created, read page 222 MIC.

[Feint's End]

Don't forget though that he has to roll twice for every "one shot" as you said above. It's not like every shot deals 2d8+4d6+4 dmg more like it has the chance to. After all he has to make 2 attack rolls for every splitted arrow to really deal "double" damage.

I don't know if it already has been mentioned and if it has I apologize but the terminology in this case is not really right.

[Big Fau]

Hmm, sounds neat. But kinda surprised that it's still effective. I mean 31 damage isn't that great for DPS though good for a bow user.

My thought exactly. Given that the Cleric can cast Haste, I'd say his damage output is low (although Clerics are better at buffing than they are at dealing damage).

Beats playing a Healbot though.

[Curmudgeon]

He would have to have as many raptor arrows as he has attacks to benefit from the arrows, because returning arrows only come back at the end of the round in which they were fired.
That's not what the item description says. A Raptor Arrow returns at the beginning of the next round, and automatically restrings itself on the bow. You can't fire any bow with 3 arrows on it. You would have to drop 2 of them to fire.

[Arc_knight25]

What about the case of many shot then?

He could full attack 1st round then many shot every round there after.

Its a free action to string the bow I don't see why it wouldn't just be a free action to unstring it? so lets say he has 3 Raptor arrows. 3 free actions to unstring them and fire them again?

[Curmudgeon]

Its a free action to string the bow I don't see why it wouldn't just be a free action to unstring it?
There's a terminology problem here. "Stringing" a bow is attaching the string to both ends of the bow. Restringing is the same as reknocking, which is the usual term for fitting the notch at the back of the arrow on the string of the bow.The "why" is because the rules specify which actions are required for each operation, and drawing an arrow is explicitly stated to be an easier job than putting any weapon or ammunition away.
When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. With a little practice you can draw an arrow out of a quiver without looking; since the arrows are organized by being in the container, you just have to put your hand to where all the ends have to be and grab one. Putting an arrow back into the quiver is harder; you've got to get it lined up with the open end of the container before you can begin to insert it, and that process takes a move action.
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action.

[TuggyNE]

There's a terminology problem here. "Stringing" a bow is attaching the string to both ends of the bow. Restringing is the same as reknocking, which is the usual term for fitting the notch at the back of the arrow on the string of the bow.

Well, actually, the term you want is nocking. Only one "k"; bows aren't doors. And no "re", either; that would suggest you were changing the nocks installed on the arrows. (Nock, as a noun, refers to those notches, or sometimes the notches for the string to go in at the ends of the bow.)

Why Firefox doesn't recognize the proper spelling I don't know.

[Matticussama]

Btw relics can be created, read page 222 MIC.

"In general, a character can add only to the item’s nonrelic powers; however, you might allow a particularly dedicated character to add a new relic power (with an appropriate cost)." It allows any player to add non-relic powers and (at DM discretion) allows particularly dedicated characters to add new relic powers to an existing relic. However, it does not allow for characters to create an entirely new relic.

[Qwertystop]

Great. A very devoted Cleric of whichever god makes Raptor Arrows can add the Raptor Arrow relic power to a mundane arrow, pending DM approval.

[Arc_knight25]

So as apart of his Full round attack, he takes his 5ft step, while doing so places the arrows back in the quiver then begins to fire again. So long as he has a BAB of 1 he can draw and stow as a part of any movement(even a 5ft step, or at least that is how we have done it in all of my campaigns) He then has the arrows in the quiver and is ready to let them fly again.

He could have 2 quivers or that magical one that acts kind of like a bag of holding.

I heard no complaints about Many Shot. So I take it that all the arrows being notched on the string would work.

[Talderas]

That's not what the item description says. A Raptor Arrow returns at the beginning of the next round, and automatically restrings itself on the bow. You can't fire any bow with 3 arrows on it. You would have to drop 2 of them to fire.

Drawing the bow and releasing equates to a single attack roll. There is a way to fire multiple arrows with a single attack roll, manyshot. If you look at the artwork for Manyshot it shows the ranger with two arrows nocked on the drawstring.

[Curmudgeon]

Drawing the bow and releasing equates to a single attack roll. There is a way to fire multiple arrows with a single attack roll, manyshot. If you look at the artwork for Manyshot it shows the ranger with two arrows nocked on the drawstring.
Very good point. If the character somehow had access to 3/5 of all the Raptor Arrow relics in existence, Manyshot would be the way to use them all.