Why do folks keep talking about war hulk from a PC perspective?

[CyberThread]

I just don't get it, I understand the unlimited damage potential and all that, but doesn't this utterly shut down any roleplay you could have with that character?

No Time to Think (Ex): A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally.

[Phelix-Mu]

Many interaction checks can be used untrained. So your character is probably gonna suck at things like book research. Guessing that wasn't high on his/her list of priorities.

Moreover, role play is more than just a series of checks.

[PersonMan]

You don't need skills to roleplay.

You can always roleplay being bad at things!

[CyberThread]

Appraise (Int)
Autohypnosis (Wis)
Balance (Dex)
Bluff (Cha)
Climb (Str)
Concentration (Con)
Control Shape (Wis)
Craft (Int)
Decipher Script (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha)
Disable Device (Int)
Disguise (Cha)
Escape Artist (Dex)
Forgery (Int)
Gather Information (Cha)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Hide (Dex)
Intimidate (Cha)
Jump (Str)
Knowledge (Int)
Listen (Wis)
Move Silently (Dex)
Open Lock (Dex)
Perform (Cha)
Psicraft (Int)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Search (Int)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Speak Language (none)
Spellcraft (Int)
Spot (Wis)
Survival (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Tumble (Dex)
Use Magic Device (Cha)
Use Psionic Device (Cha)
Use Rope (Dex)


Okay lets see what is what

[shadow_archmagi]

I just don't get it, I understand the unlimited damage potential and all that, but doesn't this utterly shut down any roleplay you could have with that character?

No Time to Think (Ex): A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally.

I'm not sure what your point is. Fighters only get 2+int skill points (and Int is likely to be +0 or +1) which means that they might have ranks in Handle Animal??? So they're likely to not feel different from War Hulks in any way, because they'll have 0 ranks in all those skills anyway.

Most characters will have 0 ranks in most of the social skills (Sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, etc)

[Kyberwulf]

Because Playing a Hulk is like playing an army.

[big teej]

I'm really not seeing the point of contention...

skill points in int or cha based skills would determine things like.... who's the party spokesperson?

has less than nothing to do with one's ability (or a character's capability) to roleplay.

EDIT: ninja much people? :smalltongue:

[Swaoeaeieu]

Yes a warhulk is bad at a lot of stuff. but that is exactly what the class is about... Just being a warmachine. and not too bright outside of mayhem.
You don't need to be helpfull to have a fun character

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not sure what your point is. Fighters only get 2+int skill points (and Int is likely to be +0 or +1) which means that they might have ranks in Handle Animal??? So they're likely to not feel different from War Hulks in any way, because they'll have 0 ranks in all those skills anyway.

Most characters will have 0 ranks in most of the social skills (Sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, etc)

Totally agree. A Fighter or Barbarian isn't going to have any ranks in social skills outside of Intimidate anyway. That doesn't stop them from roleplaying.

Hell, you can play a character with Int, Wisdom and Charisma all at 4 and still be able to roleplay. Just look at :thog:

[Namfuak]

Unless your DM is one of those "You have a cha of 6, you piss your pants every time you speak to anyone you don't know well" types, a person could roleplay a person who isn't smart, wise, or charismatic, but still has input on situations. For a war hulk, I'd imagine the input is usually "We should kill them, we should break down the door, we should storm the castle from the front."

[Worira]

Yeah, not having ranks in a skill is the equivalent of having an ability score of 10, not of -.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, not having ranks in a skill is the equivalent of having an ability score of 10, not of -.

No, skill ranks have nothing to do with your ability score. The War Hulk still gets whatever ability mod to all those skills, just no ranks.

[Sponson]

No, skill ranks have nothing to do with your ability score. The War Hulk still gets whatever ability mod to all those skills, just no ranks.

You're right, it doesn't, but that wasn't what it was about.
He meant that having no skill ranks isn't the same deficiency as having no ability points.

If 10 is the base line for stats, then 0 is the baseline for skills. Of which if 10 cha has no positive or negative impact on your RP, then neither should 0 skillpoints.

[kiryoku]

Actualy some skills would be - as in you can never use them again. others would be as if you had a ten so its half and half. because the ones that require ranks to be usable would be "locked" shut for all game purposes. Where the ones that don't would just be nerfed hard.

[prufock]

I just don't get it, I understand the unlimited damage potential and all that, but doesn't this utterly shut down any roleplay you could have with that character?

As others have said, your premise doesn't make sense. I can play a 1st-level human fighter with an intelligence of 8 and put all four of my skill points into Ride. How does this impair my ability to roleplay?

Hint:
It doesn't.

[kiryoku]

I think he ment helpfull role play. He likes helping the group as a whole and all the class can do is HULK SMASH! RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :smallfurious:

[Callin]

Question for yall since this PrC is being discussed.

Say you were in a PrC that required having x amount of skill ranks in an Int Skill as a prereq. Then you took your first level of War Hulk. Would you lose the abilities of the first PrC?

War Hulk says you are only Considered to have 0 ranks.. not that you lose the ranks you put in.

Whats yalls ruling. I say you still qualify.

[Amnestic]

Question for yall since this PrC is being discussed.

Say you were in a PrC that required having x amount of skill ranks in an Int Skill as a prereq. Then you took your first level of War Hulk. Would you lose the abilities of the first PrC?

War Hulk says you are only Considered to have 0 ranks.. not that you lose the ranks you put in.

Whats yalls ruling. I say you still qualify.


Bolded for emphasis - Intimidate is an exception to the rule of "considered to have 0 ranks".

Ignore me, misread entirely x_x

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think he ment helpfull role play. He likes helping the group as a whole and all the class can do is HULK SMASH! RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :smallfurious:

and what everyone else means is "how much of a negative is it to characters that would consider taking it; low Int and/or Cha melee types that took most of their levels in 2+int skill point classes"?

[shadow_archmagi]

I think he ment helpfull role play. He likes helping the group as a whole and all the class can do is HULK SMASH! RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :smallfurious:

Class can totally do other things. He is exactly as capable of bluffing, negotiating, etc as your average melee character. He takes no penalties to roleplaying that any other character wouldn't take if they chose not to invest in those particular skills.


Question for yall since this PrC is being discussed.

Say you were in a PrC that required having x amount of skill ranks in an Int Skill as a prereq. Then you took your first level of War Hulk. Would you lose the abilities of the first PrC?

War Hulk says you are only Considered to have 0 ranks.. not that you lose the ranks you put in.

Whats yalls ruling. I say you still qualify.

I'd argue that you lose out, for two reasons-

1: If you're considered to have no ranks, then when determining things, you have no ranks, and I don't see why that wouldn't include determining qualifications (Particularly since Considered does allow you to qualify for things, as in "This feat is also considered to be the Dodge feat for prereqs")

2. If you're taking a PrC that requires diplomacy, and you become a War Hulk and forget all your diplomacy, then thematically, you probably lose access to the skillset that relies on that.

[Fyermind]

Frankly most classes have very little to offer outside their area of expertise.

That doesn't mean you can't roleplay them well. My warhulks tend to be very apologetic because I enjoy it. They also tend to make innocent suggestions and append their ideas to everyone elses' plans.

"You brought me a orc to play with?" :D
"I broke my orc." D`:
"I'm sorry broken orc..."

"...Or we could kill them..."

There aren't many useful class features you have outside of combat, but compare to say, a fighter or barbarian who have similarly limited features and possess few skills.

[Flickerdart]

You can still roleplay a War Hulk who attempts to convince people with words, or lie, or make an honest living. He won't be very good at those things, but that doesn't mean you are forbidden from trying, and a character who tries and fails is no less roleplaying than a character who tries and succeeds.

Plus, when you screw up, you can always punch your problems away!

[Metahuman1]

Obviously what the Warhulks need to do is get a costume Item of Dominate monster that has a UMD check DC of 1 and a Masterwork Tool for UMD as well as an affiliation bonus that makes you considered trained for using UMD.

The item should also be sentient and ablet to talk telepathically so that it can make you do stuff right when you need to roll some kinda skill check and then when it's time to smash it can just let you loose!

[karkus]

In response to the OP:

Actually, it can be quite interesting to roleplay a War Hulk. You can't rely on your maximized ranks as much, so you must actually put some effort into it.

For example, the Bard can say, "Yeah, I just use Diplomacy on the guy." and get any amount of cooperation necessary. However, the War Hulk's player must think things through on behalf of its character.

Another thing to keep in mind is just day-to-day interactions. You can play it as an individual who deserves respect, but still doesn't get any respect (think "Noble Savage"), and will calmly try to talk to people despite them calling him a monster (Drizzt Do'Urden is a good example of this behavior). It is only when in life-threatening situations that he will turn into the semi-literal wrecking ball that he is.

You could also play it the exact opposite, even if that's a bit dull. Just run into a room and smash things. Unless if you're playing a solo campaign or are with other wrecking ball archetypes, that won't be fun for anyone else, however. :smallannoyed:

Just remember that even though you can destroy things with a flick of the wrist, doesn't mean you have to. :smallwink:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Eh... you could make the case that the War Hulk kind of has a pre-defined and not very interesting flavour to it out of the box.

I mean... does anyone have any good character concepts in mind for a War Hulk that go beyond "Blurring the line between a Barbarian and a Beast of Burden"?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think he ment helpfull role play. He likes helping the group as a whole and all the class can do is HULK SMASH! RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :smallfurious:

On the other hand, that's been demonstrated to be a viable social strategy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30lGrarz3MQ).

[Flickerdart]

I mean... does anyone have any good character concepts in mind for a War Hulk that go beyond "Blurring the line between a Barbarian and a Beast of Burden"?
Why would this have to be the case at all? War Hulks are no stupider than the next guy.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Why would this have to be the case at all? War Hulks are no stupider than the next guy.

I would actually count "Unable to use mental-based skills" as making them officially stupider than the next guy, but my point wasn't just that they're dumb - it's the whole flavour of the thing. This is a creature selected for size and strength - most humans could never even get into it - but it's not a Proud Representative of its Culture like, say, an Eternal Blade is - it's been crafted into what is essentially a weapon for an army of another race. It has no intellectual abilities, and, in fact, loses ranks in any of them that it had before - it doesn't even gain skill (notice that it's BAB is +0 at every level, which... is there any other class that does that?). Instead, it just gains more and more brute force, piling muscle on top of muscle.

So, yeah, it seems to me that the build and fluff points in one very clear direction, which isn't that interesting from a roleplay perspective.

[Flickerdart]

I would actually count "Unable to use mental-based skills" as making them officially stupider than the next guy
Nothing forbids them from using any skills.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Nothing forbids them from using any skills.

Gah, right, sorry, poor wording. But, "Unable to invest in mental-based skills," then. Point remains the same - the designers kinda emphasized the "Thinking ain't this guys job" part.

[Worira]

But how many Fighters are putting ranks in those anyway?

[ArcturusV]

I think I could run a few different types of War Hulks, since their one dimensional nature was called out. Off the top of my head, not taking more than 15 seconds to think about this:

Battle-scarred Veteran. A warrior who has basically seen and done far too much in his time. He's survived a lot of hellish situations and it's basically "Broke" him. He's tough, he's used to surviving, but he's also mentally imbalanced and is more likely to tell a story about how he gutted someone over a polite dinner than recite a sonnet towards the hostess's beauty.

Wizard Lobotomy. Enough said. Mindrape, or something similar gone wrong.

Savage. Basically Barbarian turned up to 11. Has fully thrown into the brutal nature of his abilities and tossed aside any semblance of being Stealthy, Cunning, etc in favor of his natural power.

Feral Child. Think something like Jungle Book, or a similar tale. Someone who was raised in the wilderness and emulates animals rather than taking after people. I'd probably use Wolverines because, who uses Wolverines? Bears? Wolves? Pssh. Wolverine. Which is very War Hulky.

Probably could come up with more interesting ones given a more serious chance. Also given the book it comes from. Miniatures Handbook right? I don't have it personally.

[Mr Adventurer]

Could you build an Incredible Hulk-a-like by combining the Goliath barbarian rage substitution level with the PHB2 Berzerker Strength alternate class feature, then going into War Hulk? You'd need to get the group to agree that you can level up while Large to qualify in the first place, but then you wouldn't qualify for War Hulk except while raging, so you'd effectively get insane Str when BS kicked in.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Could you build an Incredible Hulk-a-like by combining the Goliath barbarian rage substitution level with the PHB2 Berzerker Strength alternate class feature, then going into War Hulk? You'd need to get the group to agree that you can level up while Large to qualify in the first place, but then you wouldn't qualify for War Hulk except while raging, so you'd effectively get insane Str when BS kicked in.

Yes, this has been done. There is a Bruce Banner/Hulk build somewhere on the boards. You can do it with a starting race with a size of small as well, I believe.

[HurinTheCursed]

I think it's up to each player / DM to decide if they just want to apply the rules RAW or also take into account the flavour.
For me, the warhulk has 0 in these skills, but I'd also play it as being unable to use these skills. He traded these skills for the ultimate raw strength, becoming a machine of destruction rather than a feral beast since even animals have more skills linked to wisdom.
This physical strength could have been great for one of my character, but with this interpretation in mind, I wasn't willing to play a war hulk.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I mean... does anyone have any good character concepts in mind for a War Hulk that go beyond "Blurring the line between a Barbarian and a Beast of Burden"?

Sure, Kyle is either a human with gigantism, a half ogre or a mystery. He's been stated an Ogre, a half-ogre and as a human with large modifiers. His levels are different depending on how fast he can get into the class with his current race, call it Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Crusader 1.

In his early life he was always subject to food shortages and treated like a boy of his size rather than a boy of his age this has led him to be very disciplined in his actions and thoughts and to display some classic traits of depression. To be fitted into different campaigns he's; joined the army, been bought by a rich crime boss to be raised as the younger brother/bodyguard of his only son, and just become an adventurer.

He's soft spoken and a close talker which causes him to unknowingly use intimidate when he just means to ask nicely and he really thinks that people just respond well when you politely ask for things. Kyle also loves to swim and run, climb, and jump on things and really explore the world in a way he never got to as a child since people almost never tell him not to anymore.

He writes likes to read poetry and occasionally writes his own which he throws away for a lack of quality (this percieved deficiency is from depression/confidence issues rather than an ability to recognize bad poetry the results of high natural rolls should be at least passable). Everytime he gets a big score/paycheck/pile of loot he buys a bag of candy scaled to his size a treat nobody could afford to give him in his youth.



Feral Child. Think something like Jungle Book, or a similar tale. Someone who was raised in the wilderness and emulates animals rather than taking after people. I'd probably use Wolverines because, who uses Wolverines? Bears? Wolves? Pssh. Wolverine. Which is very War Hulky.


Gotta be Honey Badgers, they don't give a f'.

[prufock]

Though it would be far from an optimized build, there's no reason you couldn't have a war hulk with above average mental stats, and the Jack of All Trades feat should let them use the "trained only" skills. Tool kits, magic items, and spells can boost your checks. There's also no reason the war hulk's base classes couldn't include bard with bardic knack or factotum to get cunning knowledge. Your war hulk could wear a top hat and monocle and call people "old chap."

[Swaoeaeieu]

Or he is the Shipcaptain/army general/wartribe leader who is respected for his combat prowess. No survival check? 'GERALD!! WHERE IS MY CAMPFIRE?!' He just got a guy for anything, and if he doesn't have a guy he's got a guy guy to get him a guy.

In the whacky world of DnD where anything is possible, is a no points in some skill rule something that can be easily subverted or made into an advantage? even outside of combat?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Sure, Kyle is either a human with gigantism, a half ogre or a mystery. He's been stated an Ogre, a half-ogre and as a human with large modifiers. His levels are different depending on how fast he can get into the class with his current race, call it Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Crusader 1.

In his early life he was always subject to food shortages and treated like a boy of his size rather than a boy of his age this has led him to be very disciplined in his actions and thoughts and to display some classic traits of depression. To be fitted into different campaigns he's; joined the army, been bought by a rich crime boss to be raised as the younger brother/bodyguard of his only son, and just become an adventurer.

He's soft spoken and a close talker which causes him to unknowingly use intimidate when he just means to ask nicely and he really thinks that people just respond well when you politely ask for things. Kyle also loves to swim and run, climb, and jump on things and really explore the world in a way he never got to as a child since people almost never tell him not to anymore.

He writes likes to read poetry and occasionally writes his own which he throws away for a lack of quality (this percieved deficiency is from depression/confidence issues rather than an ability to recognize bad poetry the results of high natural rolls should be at least passable). Everytime he gets a big score/paycheck/pile of loot he buys a bag of candy scaled to his size a treat nobody could afford to give him in his youth.

...alright. It feels like you've made something pretty much antithetical to the "War" part of the class - I have a hard time imagining Kyle as being all that violent - but yeah, you can have some "Gentle Giant" types thrown in there as well, that'll give you some range.

...on a second read, there's really very little fluff written in with the War Hulk, apart from some stuff indicating that they're usually part of an army, and that their focus is on killing lots of weak people rather than facing anything roughly their equal.

Still, I feel like the range of roles/personalities offered by the War Hulk is a lot less than those offered by other classes.

[awa]

i don't know it seems to me the game wants to pigeon hole paladins and druids a lot more.
They have alignment and role-playing limitations/ requirements built into the classes.

where the warhulk is only prohibited from taking ranks in skill he probably wouldn't have put ranks in anyways

[shadow_archmagi]

Fluffwise? Yeah, I don't think very many people are going to read War Hulk and think "This is EXACTLY what I want to roleplay!" in the same way that people might read Warlocks or Rogues.

However, "The fluff as written doesn't provide much inspiration for roleplay" is hugely distinct from the OP's premise of "This isn't a class that makes sense for PCs because it's so bad at roleplaying"

[FreakyCheeseMan]

i don't know it seems to me the game wants to pigeon hole paladins and druids a lot more.
They have alignment and role-playing limitations/ requirements built into the classes.

where the warhulk is only prohibited from taking ranks in skill he probably wouldn't have put ranks in anyways

Eh... I can create a Paladin character that's a simpleminded and naive idealist, or a Paladin who's an intelligent and high-ranking general who holds his beliefs because he's seen what happens when people act unchecked. I can build a druid who's all about growth and harmony and nurturing those around him (think gardener), or I can build a druid whose whole focus is in a "Nature, red in tooth and claw" variety. I can build Paladins who are merciful or brutal and druids who are subtle or direct. Even the traditional "Big Dumb Wall of Muscle" classes, I can see as being other things (if they had the points to spare) - I could see an intelligent, spiritual and charismatic barbarian warlord (Khal Drogo, anyone?).

[Flickerdart]

Eh... I can create a Paladin character that's a simpleminded and naive idealist, or a Paladin who's an intelligent and high-ranking general who holds his beliefs because he's seen what happens when people act unchecked. I can build a druid who's all about growth and harmony and nurturing those around him (think gardener), or I can build a druid whose whole focus is in a "Nature, red in tooth and claw" variety. I can build Paladins who are merciful or brutal and druids who are subtle or direct. Even the traditional "Big Dumb Wall of Muscle" classes, I can see as being other things (if they had the points to spare) - I could see an intelligent, spiritual and charismatic barbarian warlord (Khal Drogo, anyone?).
Nice try, but all of those are base classes. The whole point of a PrC is a narrowed focus.

[ArcturusV]

Thus a better comparison would be War Hulk versus say, Red Wizard of Thay.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Well, I was replying to someone who was saying the base classes were more restrictive. And yeah, PrCs in general will be more restrictive.

Still... I can see the case that this particular PrC is more limiting than almost any others. In particular, it requires not just specific races, but specific non-core, non-LA-0 races, and really seems to play up the whole "Inhuman Brute" angle. I can see dedicated RPers coming up with ways to make interesting characters out of it, but I can see a lot more players looking at it and thinking "No thanks, if I take that I'll just feel like the team pet."

...which is, I think, what the OP was saying. But, I should probably stop trying to argue his point for him.

[Chronos]

But then again, there are also players who will look at War Hulk and think "Oh, yeah, big and smashy, I like that!". Now, personally, that's not my thing, but I have played with folks who thought like that.

[awa]

Eh... I can create a Paladin character that's a simpleminded and naive idealist, or a Paladin who's an intelligent and high-ranking general who holds his beliefs because he's seen what happens when people act unchecked. I can build a druid who's all about growth and harmony and nurturing those around him (think gardener), or I can build a druid whose whole focus is in a "Nature, red in tooth and claw" variety. I can build Paladins who are merciful or brutal and druids who are subtle or direct. Even the traditional "Big Dumb Wall of Muscle" classes, I can see as being other things (if they had the points to spare) - I could see an intelligent, spiritual and charismatic barbarian warlord (Khal Drogo, anyone?).
yes but the alignment restrictions of the classes limit you far more drastically

you could have a lawful good war hulk who has learned to use his powers to fight off the orc hordes that threaten the innocent civilians or a war hulk that is cruel and sadistic who loves to slaughter the weak or a war hulk that is cold and calculating using his abilities to the greatest effect on the battle field or a savage berserker who just want to break things

he could love melee the crunch of bones and spray of blood or he could be walking siege engine hurling boulders from afar avoiding hand to hand combat as beneath him.

while a paladin has far less choices he must be good, lawful, and honorable

the warhulk can be naive or cynical, nurturing or brutal, charismatic or pious just as easily (note i see the average charismatic barbarian as more just having a high cha modifier rather then cross class ranks in diplomacy)

[ArcturusV]

None of those traits you listed, Naive, Cynical, Nurturing, Brutal, Charismatic, or Pious really has anything to do with Alignment however. Don't really have anything to do with classes either. Stats maybe in that it's hard to have a high wisdom and be Naive (As in part Wisdom relates to how you relate to and understand the world and people), or Charismatic with a low Charisma (obviously).

I mean just because you're Lawful, Good, and locked into a Code doesn't mean you can't be bitter, maybe even fatalistic, with a dark outlook and willing to be quite brutal. Nor that you can't be naive. Or that because you happen to be empowered by divine forces of Pure Law and Good that you necessarily have to be pious.

Nothing really stopping a range of interesting character who are Alignment Restricted other than people's preconceptions of what Alignments mean. But it's a lot of wiggle room in the alignments and tons of behaviors and personalities just aren't factored into alignment at all.

As for how this applies to War Hulk? Eh. It's "No ranks" actually is more limiting than Alignment. But not a terribly limiting thing. Just means that they have to get by on natural talents in those situations and will never by the smooth, smiling charlatan who practices snowing people day in and day out.

[awa]

yes naiveté and so on are not limited to a war hulk the previous poster who I quoted used those as examples of different kinds of paladin and druid I merely mentioned that all of those traits could also be had by a war hulk, on top of the war hulks who considers babies part of a balanced breakfast (evil).

[Flickerdart]

None of those traits you listed, Naive, Cynical, Nurturing, Brutal, Charismatic, or Pious really has anything to do with Alignment however.
He also said "cruel" which is definitely an evil trait, "calculating" which is strongly lawful, honourable, which is also strongly lawful, and savage berserker, which is definitely chaotic. You can't have a cruel and savage Paladin (the default one, anyway) for instance, because those are Chaotic and Evil traits.

[prufock]

Nice try, but all of those are base classes. The whole point of a PrC is a narrowed focus.

Prestige paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), if you want a PrC for the analogy, still makes his point.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

He also said "cruel" which is definitely an evil trait, "calculating" which is strongly lawful, honourable, which is also strongly lawful, and savage berserker, which is definitely chaotic. You can't have a cruel and savage Paladin (the default one, anyway) for instance, because those are Chaotic and Evil traits.

Calculating isn't lawful. You can be a calculating anarchist, rogue, pirate, whatever. Unless your definition of "Chaotic" is so narrow that it forces people into the range of chaotic stupid insanity...

[Flickerdart]

A paladin with 15 levels is not much more of a PrC than a paladin with 20.


Calculating isn't lawful. You can be a calculating anarchist, rogue, pirate, whatever. Unless your definition of "Chaotic" is so narrow that it forces people into the range of chaotic stupid insanity...


"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.

My definition of "chaotic" is from the book, and clearly mentions traits that are the opposite of being calculating. Also, you can totally be a lawful anarchist, rogue, pirate, whatever (because lawful doesn't necessitate an adherence to an actual physical mortal authority), so your point is massively moot.

[dascarletm]

A paladin with 15 levels is not much more of a PrC than a paladin with 20.





My definition of "chaotic" is from the book, and clearly mentions traits that are the opposite of being calculating. Also, you can totally be a lawful anarchist, rogue, pirate, whatever (because lawful doesn't necessitate an adherence to an actual physical mortal authority), so your point is massively moot.

Chaos/Law is hard to be definitive about. There are so many facets that it's hard to say any particular trait makes one chaotic/lawful.

Also the definition is vague, probably for this reason.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

My definition of "chaotic" is from the book, and clearly mentions traits that are the opposite of being calculating. Also, you can totally be a lawful anarchist, rogue, pirate, whatever (because lawful doesn't necessitate an adherence to an actual physical mortal authority), so your point is massively moot.

First of all "Can Include" does not equal "Is the same as." You could also fit Calculating under "Adaptability" with "Can figure out how to turn any situation to his advantage."

When I said "Rogue" I was thinking of the archetype, not the class, but I should have specified, so I'll give you that one. I am, however, curious as to how you've come up with a "Lawful" anarchist.

Think... have you seen Sherlock? Moriarty is utterly calculating, but also very clearly chaotic.

[awa]

our lawful anarchist could come from a local tribe that has been oppressed by the growth of civilization. The government wants them to break up their tribes and prevent them from following the codes and traditions of their ancestors. The government does not want to deal with the tribe as a united political or social entity it wants to deal with them as individuals becuase an individual alone without his community and traditions to fall back on is more easily pushed around. Our anarchist does not want to reform the government he does not want to take it over he wants it gone so his tribal society can keep running things the way they always have by following the traditions of his ancestors.

our lawful anarchist goes about setting up organized cells of like minded individuals no ones actually in charge instead they rely on a strict code of honor passed down through generations of traditions their plans are intricate and carried out with clock work precision

So there you have it sample lawful anarchist

also back on topic the point is that a war hulk is not particularly limited when it comes to role-playing options it has at least as many as the alignment restricted base classes

[FreakyCheeseMan]

our lawful anarchist could come from a local tribe that has been oppressed by the growth of civilization. The government wants them to break up their tribes and prevent them from following the codes and traditions of their ancestors. The government does not want to deal with the tribe as a united political or social entity it wants to deal with them as individuals becuase an individual alone without his community and traditions to fall back on is more easily pushed around. Our anarchist does not want to reform the government he does not want to take it over he wants it gone so his tribal society can keep running things the way they always have by following the traditions of his ancestors.

our lawful anarchist goes about setting up organized cells of like minded individuals no ones actually in charge instead they rely on a strict code of honor passed down through generations of traditions their plans are intricate and carried out with clock work precision

So there you have it sample lawful anarchist

also back on topic the point is that a war hulk is not particularly limited when it comes to role-playing options it has at least as many as the alignment restricted base classes

We're already getting sidelined here, but I wouldn't call than lawful or an anarchist. He's got a grudge with a particular government, not the notion of government itself - furthermore, I'm pretty sure that "Having a Code" is not the same as being Lawful. If it is, half the archetype of the "Proud Chaotic Barbarian Guy" is gone - think about how many of those have strict codes-of-their ancestors that they live by.

But, really, at this point we're just re-establishing the already established fact that Alignment, particularly Law vs. Chaos, is a very murky subject.

As for it being more restricted... I may be weird, but when I think about the role-playing of my characters, alignment is a tiny and very flexible part of it. I'm much more interested in "How do they think?," "How do they pursue their goals?," "What was their background like?, What's their style?", etc. Pretty much any of my characters could have their alignment changed 180 and still be basically the same person - Sesma would still be sarcastic, calculating and slavishly dedicated to the Kobold race, Emanuel would still be curious and obsessed with the nature of faith and sentient thought, Henry Augustus would still be defined by anger against his father and the resourcefulness he'd had to learn to prove himself in a family of wizards despite being dyslexic.

I could re-do any of those characters as saintly or irredeemably evil, as paragons of law or chaos, and they'd basically be the same core concept, and just as interesting to play. War Hulk, meanwhile...

First, my knowledge is not as encyclopaedic as some, but from what I've seen, they pretty much have to be at least half a monstrous race in the first place - so, the kind of backgrounds they can have are limited, as are their default relations with society as a whole. Even the simple fact that they have to be large is limiting - no scrappy underdogs for these guys.

After that is the "No Time To Think" part - even if you ignore the fluff-y reasons of "Why is this here in the first place," it again reduces what you can do. You can't play a character who's put efforts into learning to create anything, or has a profession outside of adventuring, or has worked to learn to work with/manipulate people, or has sought any knowledge about the world around him.

And then, after that, you have the tools the War Hulk has at his disposal... namely, Strength, Hitting Lots of Things, and Hitting Things With Other Things. There isn't really a wide range available in the tools by which he approaches his problems.

Now, yeah, technically there's nothing stopping you from playing an intelligent War Hulk, but... to me, it just doesn't make sense that an intelligent person would follow that Archetype. This isn't just a mechanical consideration - something in me objects to the idea that a truly intelligent person would pursue something where they were defined by such exclusively physical/racial qualities. (Actually... come to think of it, it is kinda like the War Hulk is a walking racial stereotype for Ogres/Giants.)

[classy one]

I kind of agree with the OP, the hulk is clearly not meant to be played. It has little to do if they can use skills or not. They don't have a brain or any personality. Or at least none that it can use.

[Worira]

Except they do, and can.

[awa]

I'm largely going to ignore the anarchist part becuase it is a sideline but a minor comment.
he plans carefully, he follows tradition, and a code of honor, and is a strong supporter of community.

He wants to destroy any form of organized government that may form near him

back to the war hulk
being size large just means hes big any one whose not Schrödinger wizard is the underdog sometimes.

if your characters could go from lawful good to chaotic evil and be basically the same character with the same personality you are not using the alignment system as written

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think what he means is that an overarching concept which is not fundamentally based around an alignment is easy enough to implement as any alignment.