Four armed character

[Eltuin Hatriguu]

Hi guys. So, I am starting a new session of D&D 3.5 next month and my DM has said he likes my idea of a new homebrew race based around a human-esque creature that has evolved with four arms and gains more the stronger he becomes. They ended up dying off, so my guy is basically displaced in time and space (kind of, it's complicated). I imagined this for a combat heavy class, mostly focusing on being able to hit someone as many times as possible. So, I was wondering if this seems balanced

Fwarmetuun
•Medium: As Medium creatures, Fwarmetuun have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Base land speed is 30 feet.
•Has four arms and hands that can be used under normal rules for such. Two are primary, two are off-hand
•Qualifies for feats that need three or four arms to use.
•At hit dice 15, gains two additional arms, one of the older arms become primary after much use, and gain +3 to grapple. At hit dice 20-30(DM dictates), gains two more, gain a fourth primary arm, and an additional +3 to grapple.
•To become proficient with use of new arms, one must train his body for the new challenge of compensating with the addition of height, weight, and appendages. When receiving the first new pair, s/he undergoes a 2 hour period of metamorphosis, an 8 hour period of restful calm, and a 4 hour period of physical training. This cannot be reduced. Upon receiving the second new pair(making a total of 8), s/he must undergo a 4 hour metamorphosis, 10 hours of restful calm, and 6 hours of phyiscal training
•Is automatically proficient with a double weapons on type above standard proficiency of class, shortbow, and longbow
•+2 to Grapple, climb, escape artist, and use rope checks.
•Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
•Favored Class: Monk. When determining whether a multiclass Fwarmetuun takes an experience point penalty, monk does not count.
•Vital stats:
oAge: 20 +1d6/1d10/2d8
oHeight: 5’ +2d12 (when gaining new arms, gain 6 inches)
oWeight: 120 + (height roll X 2 2d4) (when gaining new arms, add 20 pounds)
•+1 LA

[sengmeng]

Okay...

several things occur.

1). No other creature has more than one primary arm, no matter how many arms they have. Ettins and ragewinds work around this rule fluff-wise by having separate intelligences in control of their limbs. What kind of brain does this thing have? I think it's primary limbs should be limited to half their total limbs or their intelligence bonus, whichever is lower, or burn a feat each time it gains a new primary limb.

2). The metamorphosis times don't seem like they would ever affect gameplay.

3). I don't understand what you're saying about double weapons.

4). Monk has zero synergy with multiple limbs.

5. +1 LA seems low.

[vasharanpaladin]

1). No other creature has more than one primary arm, no matter how many arms they have. Ettins and ragewinds work around this rule fluff-wise by having separate intelligences in control of their limbs. What kind of brain does this thing have? I think it's primary limbs should be limited to half their total limbs or their intelligence bonus, whichever is lower, or burn a feat each time it gains a new primary limb.


To add to this, thri-kreen are (I believe) the only PC race with multiple arms. Four of them, in fact. A thri-kreen character has ONE main hand and THREE off-hands.

Mariliths appear to operate the same way: Six arms, ONE main hand, FIVE off-hands.

[bobthe6th]

Thri keen also have +3 LA and 4 racial HD I think... admittedly they get nice stuff, but arms are really, really good. with any kind of free movement or pounce, they can push the shredding to new levels.

[vasharanpaladin]

Thri keen also have +3 LA and 4 racial HD I think... admittedly they get nice stuff, but arms are really, really good. with any kind of free movement or pounce, they can push the shredding to new levels.

2 HD and LA +2. :smallamused:

[eftexar]

Why not a delayed LA then? Once they have at least 6 HD, from any source, they can sacrifice a class level and undergo a metamorphosis where they could grow additional arms.

Here I'll throw something together real quick:

Fwarmetuun
Medium Humanoid

Racial Traits
+2 Strength, -2 Charisma: -
Base Land Speed: 30ft.
+2 racial bonus to Climb, Escape Artist, and Use Rope checks
+2 racial bonus to fortitude saves
+Darkvision 60ft

Improved Grapple
The Fwarmetuun gains the Improved Grapple feat, ignoring any prerequisites, for free.

Metamorphosis
Once a Fwarmetuun has 6 HD it can sacrifice a level, at any time (but only once), to go through a painful, but quick, metamorphosis. It gains two additional arms, which are off-hand.
At 12 HD, or after, it may grow two additional arms with the same sacrifice. These arms are difficult to use and the Fwarmetuun can't make additional attacks with them or use them for dextrous manipulation.
They do, however, provide the Improved Grab ability, with a successful unarmed or natural attack, and allow them to grapple creatures one size larger than normal.

Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (except secret)
Favored Class: Monk. When determining whether a multiclass Fwarmetuun takes an experience point penalty, monk does not count.

[Debihuman]

Normally, creatures with 4 arms have one primary hand and 3 off hands so they can qualify for Multiweapon fighting. Since you're not using standard rules, it makes it much hard to adjudicate. See Multiweapon Fighting Feat. The feat actually requires you to have 3 off hands so you're making this more difficult than necessary. If I were your DM, I'd not allow you to have 2 primary hands. Also, you need game mechanics to go along with metamorphosis and training or that belongs just in description.

Fwarmetuun

Medium: As Medium creatures, Fwarmetuun have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base land speed is 30 feet.
Has four arms and hands that can be used under normal rules for such. One is primary and the other three are off-hand
Qualifies for feats that need three or four arms to use.
Metamorphosis (Ex): At 15 Hit Dice, a fwarmetuun may undergo a 2-hour metamorphosis during which he or she may gain two additional arms. At the end of the metamorphosis, the fwarmetuun must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude check to see if the limbs grow properly. If not, the fwarmetuun must wait until he or she gains another level to try again with the DC increasing by one. If the fwarmetuun successfully gains two arms, the fwarmetuun must then undergo a ritual that consists of 4 hours of rigorous training followed by 8 hours of restful calm; after which, the fwarmetuun must succeed on a DC 15 Reflex save to master his or her new limbs. If not, the fwarmetuun must wait 24 hours before repeating the ritual at DC +1 for each repetition. At 20 Hit Dice or later, the fwarmetuun may undergo a 4-hour metamorphosis to gain two additional arms but must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude check to properly grow his or her arms (failure again adds +1 to the DC on each attempt) and must undergo a subsequent ritual consisting of 6 hours of physical training and 10 hours of restful calm; after which the fwarmetuun must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save (failure adds +1 to the DC on each attempt) to master his or her new limbs.
Is automatically proficient with a double weapons on type above standard proficiency of class, shortbow, and longbow
+2 to Grapple, Climb, Escape Artist, and Use Rope checks.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
Favored Class: Monk. When determining whether a multiclass Fwarmetuun takes an experience point penalty, monk does not count.
LA +2


Debby

[Just to Browse]

Debi, there is no reason to tax players a level or so for an unlucky fort save such that some fwarms get 6 arms at level 15 and some get it at level 16.

Having 4 arms is a big deal because it means lots of attacks, and there's no good way to tie that into race and make that balanced for low-level creatures without simultaneously making it a terrible racial choice for casters.

Make bonus arms a [Monstrous] feat and write a race with vestigial arms that are good for crafting or eating or something, and then any melee race that wants 2 extra attacks can take the feat at level 6 or something. eftexar's idea also seems good.

[Debihuman]

If you get an unlucky Fort save, you can retry it next level. That's hardly punishment. Look at it this way. At level 15, a monk has a +9 Fort save and that's before you factor in any Constitution modifiers. Seriously, you have to roll a 5 or less to fail and failure doesn't cost you anything but the fact that you didn't get your extra arms this level and have to try again next level. I basically made the sacrifice meaningful rather than fluff that players like you ignore.

If you can't take that kind of a Fort save, I'd hate to see how you handle one that actually has detrimental consequences. Plus by level 15, there are luck feats that allow you to reroll if you roll badly. And is waiting another level going to so mess up your game? Really? Because by level 15, no two PCs are ever the same.

For goodness sake you already start the game with extra attacks. You start with 4 arms. How much more of an advantage do you need?

You don't get extra limbs by taking a feat. That's cheesy.

A 4-armed spellcaster can cast spells and throw a rock at your head albeit at a penalty. Where's the downside?
Debby

[Just to Browse]

A character being strong is no reason to randomly nerf 1 in 20 builds. If I'm writing a 15th-level character and my race grants me an extra pair of arms at 15th-level, then I should get those at 15th level. I shouldn't have to roll for them and then end up exceedingly disappointed because my only natural 1 of the session was during level-up.

A sacrifice can be meaningful without involving a d20 roll. That's what ECL/HD, base fortitude save, and skill rank requirements are for. If you think the race needs some sort of Fortitude requirement to stay balanced, then give it a base fortitude requirement. If you think it should be flavorful, let them retry fortitude saves after leveling up instead of making them wait a whole level.

I also can't see any way requiring feats for extra arms would be 'cheesy', considering 'cheese' is a term used to describe rule usage and not rule invention. If by 'cheesy', you mean overpowered, then you would also be incorrect.

[Debihuman]

A character being strong is no reason to randomly nerf 1 in 20 builds. If I'm writing a 15th-level character and my race grants me an extra pair of arms at 15th-level, then I should get those at 15th level. I shouldn't have to roll for them and then end up exceedingly disappointed because my only natural 1 of the session was during level-up.

How is the character nerfed? He can roll again next level. Nerfing would be that he couldn't try again. You're lucky it didn't have to be a nasty sacrifice such as if you are ever resurrected, you lose your extra arms permanently.


A sacrifice can be meaningful without involving a d20 roll. That's what ECL/HD, base fortitude save, and skill rank requirements are for. If you think the race needs some sort of Fortitude requirement to stay balanced, then give it a base fortitude requirement. If you think it should be flavorful, let them retry fortitude saves after leveling up instead of making them wait a whole level.

Ah but risk is its own reward. Unless you are willing to take extra LA +2 for each time you gain a set of arms (which is what should happen).


I also can't see any way requiring feats for extra arms would be 'cheesy', considering 'cheese' is a term used to describe rule usage and not rule invention. If by 'cheesy', you mean overpowered, then you would also be incorrect.

Cheesy as in "Cheap". Using a feat to gain extra arms is too cheap and results in no sacrifice whatsoever unless the feat had some serious prerequisites such as requiring Con 25 for starters. If your Con drops below 20 you could lose access to your extra arms as well.

You just want free stuff at no personal risk and I call shenanigans on that.

Debby

[eftexar]

Debihuman I think LA +2 is a bit much per set of arms. LA +1 per set of arms should be enough. In which case, what is wrong with the race I threw together?

On another note though. I think I'll have to agree with Just to browse. Also, there isn't much precedence for what you are doing here either. There are already races with multiple arms without massive penalties.

Indeed, if we go with the assumption extra arms are powerful enough to "warrant your nerf", you are breaking one, if not two, of the golden rules of homebrew here:


The size of the bonus does not warrant a huge increase in penalty. Instead you should offer it at a higher level. See Crippling Negatives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150609). So your risk removing the LA for it's presence is actually a problem.

Heavy prerequisites do not make the handing out of excess power ok. Balancing by level should take precedence. See Playing Hard to Get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150609). So move the arms up to a higher level if you think they are too powerful for their current level.

And a note of game design philosophy. There is a reason most video games, even retrogames, you play don't punish players for gaining their new upgrades. A game is for fun and should be rewarding even when it punishes you. Think about this:

Death vs Level Drain. One adds suspense. The other adds frustration. Here's what I mean:
If you die deep in a dungeon and can't be resurrected, in D&D, you get to make a new character and join back in the fun within a game session or two. But level drain permanently cripples your character and you fall behind, becoming useless in many cases, which is not so fun.

So it has nothing to do with free stuff. It has to do with a balance of risk and reward. Reward needs to outbalance risk, but not so much it becomes irrelevant.

Allowing a new fortitude save each night, instead of every, level, as I believe Just to Browse suggested offers risk, but the scale is small enough that it isn't as crippling. It also, because of the short time span involved, adds a form of suspense to the game that isn't present with leveling.

[Raineh Daze]

So... if I get to level 15, Debi, your logic runs that I should have to successfully roll dice to get a racial feature? And then, practically at epic levels, I need two successful saves to efficiently utilise a racial feature?

...there is no reason, if my race is supposed to grow arms after a certain point, that I should have to wait an entire level to get my extra arms. :smallconfused:

[Just to Browse]

How is the character nerfed? He can roll again next level. Nerfing would be that he couldn't try again. You're lucky it didn't have to be a nasty sacrifice such as if you are ever resurrected, you lose your extra arms permanently.Nerfing means that there are literally 19 level 15 fwarms walking around with 6 arms to every 1 level 15 fwarm with four, and the only distinction between the two groups is an unlucky dice roll. That one fwarm is nerfed.


Ah but risk is its own reward. Unless you are willing to take extra LA +2 for each time you gain a set of arms (which is what should happen).I'm against LA+2 for a different reasons (like eftexar has below), but my point is that if you had an appropriate balance consideration like LA, prereq, feat tax, whatever, then you don't need to include a save for what should be a basic racial feature.


Cheesy as in "Cheap". Using a feat to gain extra arms is too cheap and results in no sacrifice whatsoever unless the feat had some serious prerequisites such as requiring Con 25 for starters. If your Con drops below 20 you could lose access to your extra arms as well.Right. We call those things prerequisites, most feats have them. The point of the statement is that taxing a non-level resource (feats) is a good alternative to taxing a level resource, and that feat can have whatever prereqs and restrictions are necessary to make it balanced.

[Rizban]

2 HD and LA +2. :smallamused:

Thri-kreen have only +1 LA if they are non-psionic. Having 4 arms is not why the psionic thri-kreen has a +2 LA. Non-psionic versions can be found in MM2 and FR:Shining South.

DMG2 offers a "template" on page 157 to gain extra arms for a +2 LA, but it also grants a bonus feat and a potential +10 to Disguise checks.

I see no real reason extra arms should incur more than a +1, but they are definitely worth the +1.

[Debihuman]

So... if I get to level 15, Debi, your logic runs that I should have to successfully roll dice to get a racial feature? And then, practically at epic levels, I need two successful saves to efficiently utilise a racial feature?

...there is no reason, if my race is supposed to grow arms after a certain point, that I should have to wait an entire level to get my extra arms. :smallconfused:

No your race doesn't "automatically" grow extra arms. You have to make a sacrifice to do so. So what sacrifice should be made? Oh wait, "Once a Fwarmetuun has 6 HD it can sacrifice a level, at any time (but only once), to go through a painful, but quick, metamorphosis."

Did people miss that somehow? So you sacrifice a level to gain extra arms (no save) but I had one with a save and that is somehow worse? I don't think so.

Debby

[Just to Browse]

No your race doesn't "automatically" grow extra arms. You have to make a sacrifice to do so. So what sacrifice should be made? Oh wait, "Once a Fwarmetuun has 6 HD it can sacrifice a level, at any time (but only once), to go through a painful, but quick, metamorphosis."

Did people miss that somehow? So you sacrifice a level to gain extra arms (no save) but I had one with a save and that is somehow worse? I don't think so.


Well first, that's a strawman. Just because plan A is better than plan B, that doesn't mean plan A is good. Even if one of us wrote "At 15 HD, a fwarm dies no save", it wouldn't make everyone else's races any better by virtue of existing.

And second, getting a level adjustment that you can choose when to take is already a thing: see bloodlines. eftexar does it in a clunky way, but it "balances" the race without randomly nerfing 1 in 20 fwarms.

[eftexar]

I agree on all points. Even that mine's kind of clunky. Here, lets see if I can clean it up a bit.

Fwarmetuun
Medium Humanoid

Racial Traits
+2 Strength, -2 Charisma: -
Base Land Speed: 30ft.
+2 racial bonus to Climb, Escape Artist, and Use Rope checks
+2 racial bonus to fortitude saves
+Darkvision 60ft

Improved Grapple
The Fwarmetuun gains the Improved Grapple feat, ignoring any prerequisites, for free.

Multidextrous
Prerequisites: 6+ HD
Whenever the Fwarmertun would gain a level it may instead sacrifice that level to, in a quick and painful metamorphosis, grow two additional arms. Any attacks made with them are off-handed attacks.
Once these arms are grown the Fwarmertun may not grow another pair, with this ability, until it has at least 12 HD. No more than two pairs of extra arms can be grown with this ability.

Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (except secret)
Favored Class: Monk. When determining whether a multiclass Fwarmetuun takes an experience point penalty, monk does not count.

[edit]: Look at it cleaned up it might still be better to do a feat. Less wordy and more elegant.

[Just to Browse]

I'd make the prereq ECL 6+ and turn the penalty into LA (allowing buyoff at those levels). You end up with a progression that can be just like the one before, but with less words.

[Debihuman]

According to the DMG 2 page 157-158 having Aberrant Limbs (which in this case means having 4 arms) is worth LA +2. So gaining an extra pair of limbs should probably be LA +2 each time you gain another set. That's just how I'm seeing it. YMMV.

Debby

[Rizban]

Debihuman, I'm just going to quote my own post here, because I just mentioned that part of the DMG2.
Thri-kreen have only +1 LA if they are non-psionic. Having 4 arms is not why the psionic thri-kreen has a +2 LA. Non-psionic versions can be found in MM2 and FR:Shining South.

DMG2 offers a "template" on page 157 to gain extra arms for a +2 LA, but it also grants a bonus feat and a potential +10 to Disguise checks.

I see no real reason extra arms should incur more than a +1, but they are definitely worth the +1.Extra limbs by themselves aren't worth more than a +1. It's the bonus feat or land speed bonus and the ability to retract the limbs and hide them that they determined bumped it up to a full +2.

[sengmeng]

So, no one realized that a monk gains no benefit at all from having extra arms?

[Just to Browse]

So, no one realized that a monk gains no benefit at all from having extra arms?

I assume you're talking about the predetermined flurry attacks? Text trumps table, and text says it takes a full attack action and grants an extra attack, instead of giving a fixed number of attacks.

[Debihuman]

Debihuman, I'm just going to quote my own post here, because I just mentioned that part of the DMG2.Extra limbs by themselves aren't worth more than a +1. It's the bonus feat or land speed bonus and the ability to retract the limbs and hide them that they determined bumped it up to a full +2.

It doesn't say that in the DMG 2 that it is only +1 for the limbs and +1 for the other stuff. You only get the other stuff if you can retract your limbs, which the fwarmetuun can't. Furthermore that explains the first set of 4 limbs but doesn't explain the 2nd and 3rd set of limbs. Unless this were fully playtested against a typical PC, I'm not sure which LA is most appropriate.

So for 4 arms it is LA +1, for 6 arms it gains another +1, and for the 8 arms it gains another LA +1. That puts it a LA +3 (Now I feel generous at LA +2) :smallbiggrin:

Debby

[Rizban]

I think an additional set of arms is worth a +1, but more arms past that have fewer benefits. Unless you have pounce, the extra attacks aren't that great, and the added LA really catches up. A handful of extra melee attacks is soooo not worth the trade off of what you can get with three class levels.

Level loss isn't a good alternative to level adjustment either. You'll only be behind for a few encounters before you catch up or die. Remember, lower level people in the party gain more XP and need less to level up. The only real precedent for gains with level loss is the Necropolitan. That is hand waved as being level loss due to death, and, let's face it, becoming undead is FAR more beneficial than a pair of arms. I really don't think that mechanic is appropriate here.

[Hanuman]

Being a strong supporter of the Ozodrin and Evolutionist homebrew classes I have a fair bit of research on how to 'arm' a character, 3 things come to mind:

First of all, the Siarran race from Dragonstar which is close enough, they have 2 off-hands and 2 main hands with 0LA, this might be to your liking.

Second is the insectile template (page 122 of savage species), its +2LA and they have 6 arms.

Third would be the diopsid from dragon compendium, it can dual-wield greatswords with 4 arms for +1LA

My advice is that primary arms are very costly balance-wise, they allow you to string out DPS very fast and very hard, whether it be martial, magic, psionic or essentia, off-hands are not expensive as they do not grant attacks.

[Debihuman]

The problem is that you end up with 8 arms and there is just no way that it shouldn't have LA +3 (maybe LA +2 if it has to sacrifice a level but that's an equivalent of LA +3). The race doesn't offer much but the extra arms and that's it main problem. Why it doesn't have Rend is kinda beyond me.

You can find the Siarran racial traits here: http://dragonstarsrd.freehostia.com/races/siarrans.htm

Since Navigate isn't is a standard skill, you should substitute another skill for it. I'd recommend giving it a racial skill not on the Monk's list of skills just to broaden it out.

Also, Multiweapon Fighting is already a Monster Feat and Multidexterity is no longer a feat in 3.5 as it was folded into Multiweapon Fighting: See Demon, Marilith for an example of doing this.

HOWEVER, In the Update Book, the Darktentacles from MM2 still has Multidexterity as a feat (even though it seems to be mis-applied). Whether it is an oversight on WotC's part (which I suspect since their editing skills were always subpar), or intentional (which I doubt since their editing skills were always subpar), I'm not 100% certain, so I leave it up to all of you to determine your own ruling on this matter.

Debby

[Rizban]

I still say that 8 arms is in no way equal to 3 class levels. The +2 LA insectile template adds 4 arms and a lot of other things: climb speed, natural armor, tremorsense, wide vision, +4 dex, +2 wis.

[Hanuman]

I still say that 8 arms is in no way equal to 3 class levels. The +2 LA insectile template adds 4 arms and a lot of other things: climb speed, natural armor, tremorsense, wide vision, +4 dex, +2 wis.
Insectile template does not grant attacks, you're not meant to attack with them even if you loophole otherwise, exceptions being the ozodrin's conservative form allowing you to sell an off-hand arm and buy a true arm (which will be patched in Ozodrin² which isn't released yet).

The balance of attacks is that once you get +6 you advance a secondary attack, natural weapons however are easy to train from true arms granting you "attack number advancement" of 6 levels, giving someone 4 arms means that they spec truearm->natural weapon and gain 12 levels of attack number advancement. There are several ways to do this with each type of character, and there's a few CO t3 builds involving this to do absurd damage.

[Rizban]

Insectile template does not grant attacks, you're not meant to attack with them even if you loophole otherwiseThat is correct, but it means you don't gain attacks, i.e. natural attacks, special attacks, etc. It never says that you can't use them for attacks, such as when they hold weapons. That is, to my understanding, not a loophole.

If your DM rules that you can't make attacks with them at all, then they can still use a two-handed weapon with all 6 arms to deal 3.5x Str mod in extra damage with it. (1.5x + .5x for each additional hand as per page 42).


The balance of attacks is that once you get +6 you advance a secondary attack, natural weapons however are easy to train from true arms granting you "attack number advancement" of 6 levels, giving someone 4 arms means that they spec truearm->natural weapon and gain 12 levels of attack number advancement. There are several ways to do this with each type of character, and there's a few CO t3 builds involving this to do absurd damage.And your meaning was lost in the jargon...

I'm assuming you're talking about the Ozodrin, which, as I understand it, uses its own rules system and really has no relevance here.

In standard 3.5, getting a +6 BAB only adds a single iterative attack at a -5 penalty. Additional limbs gain no benefit from this extra attack. Even if you have more than one primary hand, you don't gain more than 1 iterative attack.

The only way to get more than one attack with an off hand is by selecting the TWF/MWF feat trees. It takes three feats to get three attacks with off hands, the second and third of which take a -5 and -10 penalty to the attack rolls.

[eftexar]

I think we may have scared off the one who started thread. His status says he hasn't logged in since he asked, 5 days ago, for help.

[Hanuman]

That is correct, but it means you don't gain attacks, i.e. natural attacks, special attacks, etc. It never says that you can't use them for attacks, such as when they hold weapons. That is, to my understanding, not a loophole.

If your DM rules that you can't make attacks with them at all, then they can still use a two-handed weapon with all 6 arms to deal 3.5x Str mod in extra damage with it. (1.5x + .5x for each additional hand as per page 42).

And your meaning was lost in the jargon...

I'm assuming you're talking about the Ozodrin, which, as I understand it, uses its own rules system and really has no relevance here.

In standard 3.5, getting a +6 BAB only adds a single iterative attack at a -5 penalty. Additional limbs gain no benefit from this extra attack. Even if you have more than one primary hand, you don't gain more than 1 iterative attack.

The only way to get more than one attack with an off hand is by selecting the TWF/MWF feat trees. It takes three feats to get three attacks with off hands, the second and third of which take a -5 and -10 penalty to the attack rolls.

Gaining an extra limb is not about conventional weaponry (ie swords and bows), it's about how you can change a limb into a natural weapon (THROUGH Ex, Su, Psi, Sp, SPELL, POWER AND ESSENTIA) to bypass attack number advancement, because it is far easier for a character of any type to get claws than it is for them to get extra attacks.

This is due to the fact that monsters generally many times more natural weapon attacks than their BAB would let a player character swing a bit of metal. Thus, is leaves an exploitable loophole, and the "does not grant attack" is deliberate wording, not something to be RAWslawyered literally.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0


I think we may have scared off the one who started thread. His status says he hasn't logged in since he asked, 5 days ago, for help.

Wait a month, then we'll be below average for his posts/day.