if tome of battle had come out earlier...

[CyberThread]

how big of an influence do you think it would have had on other splat books?

[Amechra]

We'd probably have more martial adept base classes, potentially an additional discipline or two (I'm reasonably sure it would be a ranged one), and some more PrCs.

[Callin]

I think very little honestly. Maybe some Dragon support but not much bookwise.

[137beth]

WotC mainly though about how each book interacted within itself, and with the core rules. They tried to make it so that you could play with just the core and any other collection of books you may or may not have. If other books depended on features from a particular book, then you would really not be able to play without it, in which case that book should be in the core rules.

Of course, that is also why so many of the balance problems in 3.5 can be aggravated by using multiple supplements--the designers never tried to balance the game for all-book use (not that it would have made much difference if they had, given the level of dysfunction in core...)

[Invader]

I'd say at the very least a few more disciplines, a bunch of feats, a few prestige classes, another ranged base class. I'd be really surprised if they didn't release a whole other book with nothing but ToB material.

[Waker]

WotC mainly though about how each book interacted within itself, and with the core rules. They tried to make it so that you could play with just the core and any other collection of books you may or may not have. If other books depended on features from a particular book, then you would really not be able to play without it, in which case that book should be in the core rules.

That isn't entirely accurate. There are several situations where classes or something introduced in one books are referenced in later books. Warlocks for instance get brought up in Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum and probably some others. Shifters and Goliaths are in ToB.

Depending on when it was introduced, we might see some more interaction with other subsystems like Binding or Incarnum. A new initiator or two may have been introduced as well, not to mention at least one new school.

[137beth]

That isn't entirely accurate. There are several situations where classes or something introduced in one books are referenced in later books. Warlocks for instance get brought up in Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum and probably some others. Shifters and Goliaths are in ToB.

Depending on when it was introduced, we might see some more interaction with other subsystems like Binding or Incarnum. A new initiator or two may have been introduced as well, not to mention at least one new school.

Yes, I was making an overgeneralization to say that I didn't think it would have had a huge effect on the rest of the game. But probably something small, some feats and a prestige class in one of the "complete" books.

[Waker]

Yes, I was making an overgeneralization to say that I didn't think it would have had a huge effect on the rest of the game. But probably something small, some feats and a prestige class in one of the "complete" books.

Nor do I think that the change would be terribly far reaching. I mean, Psionics has been around forever and often enough it just gets a half-hearted mention in many books. No psionic initiators, just quick adaptions for Jade Phoenix and two little feats. Incarnum had some stuff added in a pdf. Can't remember what's in ToM.
Having ToB earlier would grant a little bit, but no completely game-changing mechanics that alters D&D.

[Xefas]

It depends how early, and how popular it would've been. Warlocks were early and popular, and we still only saw a little support thrown their way, in the form of a few Invocations here and there, in Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, and Magic of Incarnum. The lion's share of new books involve new content, or support for the Core classes. Look how many books have obligatory arcane and divine spells thrown in, even when the thesis of the book is antithetical to the idea (Tome of Magic! Here are three new takes on magic, if you're tired of the old stuff! Oh, and here are a few dozen new spells for the old stuff just because Core Fullcasters have to be able to do everything.).

In this way, Tome of Battle is at a disadvantage. The primary content you can provide for them are new Disciplines, but those take up far more word-count than the meager allotment we see for the Warlock.

So, unless Tome of Battle took the place of Complete Warrior in the product line-up, and the Sublime Way took off so hard that people were beating down WotC's door with sacks full of cash, chances are that, otherwise, we would've gotten, at most, a few feats and a few Prestige Classes.

[Eldan]

Well, maybe if it had been first, it might have gotten a Complete Martial Artist, like psionics. But there's little chance of that, psionics have an enormous legacy from older editions.

[Harrow]

I could see a new discipline, maybe a new base initiator class, very likely a prestige class in one of the 'complete' or environment books, then another prestige class from someplace weird, like an obscure adventure module or dragon magazine. There would certainly be a bit more material from a web article or two.

Oh, and errata. If it had been made earlier there would be errata, which would be really nice.

[Coidzor]

Maybe some support for interplay between Incarnum and Tome of Battle beyond their out of the box multiclass friendliness.

Possibly some greater embrace of similar ideas of multiclass friendly design.

A portion of the Magic Item Compendium devoted to magic items for martial adepts. Unless I've just brainfarted completely and there already are such things in the MIC.

Maybe a feat in Complete Adventurer or Complete Warrior that allowed another class to improve initator level at a 1:1 ratio rather than a 2:1 ratio.

[KillianHawkeye]

Tome of Battle couldn't have come out earlier, because it was basically just a test bed for encounter-based abilities so that they could use it as research for designing 4th Edition.

Just like how Star Wars Saga Edition was a test bed for static defenses and getting rid of skill ranks.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think it could have come earlier, because the story of 3E is a story of initially attempting to adhere to as many stupid sacred cows of the past as possible while still having a simplified, more balanced game, only to slowly but surely gain the courage to fight back the grognards and make brave new design attempts.

Warlocks getting at will spells and attacks, classes getting more magical / Su alternate class features... it was all a careful step by step process to try and wean the fanbase towards new concepts of which Tome of Battle, Incarnum, Binders, etc... were all the end result.

The real question IMO is what if they didn't rush into 4E so fast and 3E lasted another few years, how may they have expanded upon ToB from there?

[navar100]

We would be having people arguing on whether it's magic it or not, anime or not, and there would be a 3E Civil War with three sides - those who prefer 3E "Classic", those who prefer Tome of Battle, and those who hate 3E with every fiber of their being and also hate on Pathfinder.

4E would still happen. The 3E haters would be in love. The 3E Classic fans would still be incensed for being fired customers and look for a new company. The Tome of Battle crowd would split, some going to 4E, others sticking with 3E and be upset the new company isn't supporting Tome of Battle despite legally being unable to do so.

In other words, nothing different.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

...I can't help but feel that it would have made a large enough splash that it would've gotten support.

I mean, people mention the Warlock as the non-core class with the most support, but what is the Warlock, really? It's a unique, fairly minor class - interesting, sure, a good addition to the game, but it doesn't fill any major role and it's not all that powerful.

Tome of Battle, meanwhile... how many people on these forums think of it as "The Tome of Monk, Fighter and Paladin Done Right?" (I'm one of them, by the way.) Tome of Battle is (to me, and many others) the book that lets Martial classes work and be fun to play - I think that would've gotten more love than just the Warlock, which is an island unto itself.

And yeah, sure, some people hate the magic/anime flavour - but, that's just an excuse to write more stuff, to write disciplines and initiator classes that are entirely western and mundane in both fluff and function.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Well, if anything, there would be a proper set of errata for it compared to what we have now. IHS wouldn't be considered so broken because it would have been fixed, and other such things might be better balanced.

A ranged set of adepts might also have come out.

[Flickerdart]

If Tome of Battle had come out earlier, it would have been full of Hexblades.

[SaintRidley]

Maybe as much support as psionics got. Which is to say that there was an adaptation to a prestige class here and there, the occasional maneuver or three might have been thrown into a book, as maybe we might have gotten a Complete series book for the subsystem.

Speaking of a Complete series book:


Well, maybe if it had been first, it might have gotten a Complete Martial Artist, like psionics. But there's little chance of that, psionics have an enormous legacy from older editions.

Looking at Complete Psionic, I'd be very wary of any Complete book touching a system outside the PHB systems and would not trust a "Complete Martial Adept" book, at least at first. Even with that enormous legacy, Complete Psionics wound up being pretty terrible.

[Coidzor]

If Tome of Battle had come out earlier, it would have been full of Hexblades.

*shudder* I'm not sure if that's the worst case hypothetical, but it's close...

[NinjaInTheRye]

How early?

Just imagine if, instead of a separate supplement, the ideas/concepts of ToB had simply been integrated into the core martial classes from the start.

We'd have books full of Maneuvers/Stances, Archery based disciplines, and the like.

[Amphetryon]

*shudder* I'm not sure if that's the worst case hypothetical, but it's close...

Full of Swashbucklers and Samurai is arguably worse.