Rules Cyclopedia: Clan Relic Clarification

[Water_Bear]

I've been putting together an Adventurer Conqueror King game, a retroclone based on the Rules Cyclopedia/BECMI editions of D&D, and have been looking to plunder some of the stuff from those original games to put in my campaign world. Then I stumbled onto the Demihuman Clan Relics section and I am somewhat confused.

Can anyone familiar with the Rules Cyclopedia and/or Companion rules in actual play tell me if I have this right?


So it looks like when a Demihuman founds a Stronghold, the PCs have to go out and raid a ruined Clan Stronghold (or the lair of whoever or whatever destroyed it) to recover an appropriate Relic. This sounds like an awesome quest hook, and I'd like to know if anyone has had experience with running an adventure like this from either side of the screen.
The whole setup of the Keeper and the Relic's Domination power seems really bizarre to me. There's an NPC, presumably subordinate to the PC Clanmaster, who has absolute mental control of every other member of their clan? Which they explicitly never abuse? And they're the only ones who can interact with the Relic directly? This whole setup mystifies me and I feel like I'm missing some crucial context.
The Demihuman Crafts section seems to assume they are overwhelmingly powerful and need to be tightly controlled; the items to "harvest" Oil of X take centuries to make, and getting the Oils in usable quantities many tens of years. But the end result of all that effort seems underwhelming; Halflings and Elves can make tiny flying ships or kites and Dwarves get tiny underground submersibles. Is this just me having high-magic expectations coming from a 3.5 background or can I safely cut down the crafting times on these without messing with the game?

[SiuiS]

We're talking like, the half long crucible of shadows that casts darkness, and shadows of light from those around it right? Or the net what collects moonlight into dew?

For point three, the idea is that these vessels are ungodly rare. Otherwise, you'd have to consider the ramifications; why don't the dwarves have a full navy of stone ships? They live for centuries and are smart enough to consolidate. Why don't elves always use flying ships?

Because they are cool, and only stay that way if rare and not an easy access magitech subway system or the like. You could fiddle with the creation times, but you will get players who want to routinely outfit subterranmersible armadas. You need to account for that.

[Rhynn]

It's largely a matter of different base assumptions, yeah. Demihumans aren't humans; they're supposed to be somewhat inscrutable, even if the party includes demihumans. The domination power is what it says: everyone in the clan is in awe of and obeys the Keeper. The Keeper doesn't abuse it - it's only to be used for the good of the clan. (The confusion effect created by the Clanmaster and Keeper disagreeing is fun.)

As to the crafts: yes, BECMI/Cyclopedia is low-magic. Magic items are rare and special (at least to anyone who's not the PCs). Note that both the Rules Cyclopedia and the Companion set say, regarding demi-human crafts:
"The rules that follow are for DM and NPC use only; no player character can participate in the construction of these famous, but incredibly rare items. You may place one or more of these in a campaign, but very few should exist."

I'm not sure why you'd consider the results underwhelming. I suppose, compared to a party of Companion level with its own magic-users and clerics, they may be. But for regular people, or for demi-humans (with their level limits), they're pretty awesome.

Actually, if you consider how long each elf or dwarf clan, especially, has existed, they'd likely have a dozen of more of the rockships/lightboats; I imagine some are lost over time, though... that still sounds like way too many to me.

[BWR]

The low-magic approach always puzzled me when you look at the default setting of Mystara, what with Glantri and especially Alphatia.

[Water_Bear]

A lot of good responses here, which have given me a lot to think about.

So basically this is an issue of racial mindset? I can certainly see the Elves and Dwarves putting that much time down on these things, especially since the Elves are immortal and Dorfs Be Crazy. The Halflings still kind of confuse me; they're basically still Hobbits in terms of characterization, but their Relic and Flying Kites don't make a lot of sense from that perspective.

(And to offset worries, I'm not suggesting turning this into Eberron with Lightships skywriting adverts for Potion Shops or anything. I was just wondering what the point of the extremely long crafting times were when getting much more powerful magic items is significantly less difficult.)


The domination power is what it says: everyone in the clan is in awe of and obeys the Keeper. The Keeper doesn't abuse it - it's only to be used for the good of the clan. (The confusion effect created by the Clanmaster and Keeper disagreeing is fun.)

I'm just a little lost about what the Keeper's role is. Are they a mostly-loyal Retainer who rules when the PC is out doing other things and helps them work the Holy Macguffin when they're at home? A semi-antagonistic religious leader who makes sure that tradition and the good of the clan win out over Clanmaster ambition? A DM mouthpiece who the PCs are supposed to turn to for advice? All of the above?


Note that both the Rules Cyclopedia and the Companion set say, regarding demi-human crafts:
"The rules that follow are for DM and NPC use only; no player character can participate in the construction of these famous, but incredibly rare items. You may place one or more of these in a campaign, but very few should exist."

This one kind of threw me actually, because I'm pretty sure it also says for the Dwarven Lens that the Clanmaster has to participate in the 800-1000 years of hammering to produce it. I guess any PC Clanmaster wouldn't want to do something that tedious anyway, but it's another point that confuses me.

[BWR]

Some of the point of the long crafting times was that there wasn't much of a unified approach to how to create magic items. Some of the time and gold requirements is that you got xp for creating it as well as finding it.


I'm just a little lost about what the Keeper's role is. Are they a mostly-loyal Retainer who rules when the PC is out doing other things and helps them work the Holy Macguffin when they're at home? A semi-antagonistic religious leader who makes sure that tradition and the good of the clan win out over Clanmaster ambition? A DM mouthpiece who the PCs are supposed to turn to for advice? All of the above?
The Keeper is part of the balance of power in the clan. For the most part, Clanmasters do good, but it's the Keeper's job to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow, especially if the Clanmaster is getting old and frail of mind.
They are not necessarily clerics by class. Indeed, there was only the Halfling class back then, though the Master advanced class is basically a cleric. By position they are very much religious and keepers of tradition and lore (especially clerics, but I'd say also bards, wizards, sorcerers, oracles/favored souls and possibly druids are most likely to become Keepers). The most important thing they do is watch over the clan's Blackflame and to a lesser extent craft things from it.

[Rhynn]

I'm just a little lost about what the Keeper's role is. Are they a mostly-loyal Retainer who rules when the PC is out doing other things and helps them work the Holy Macguffin when they're at home? A semi-antagonistic religious leader who makes sure that tradition and the good of the clan win out over Clanmaster ambition? A DM mouthpiece who the PCs are supposed to turn to for advice? All of the above?

I don't think PCs are supposed to get anything out of the Clan Relic, as such. Their main purpose appears to be as adventure MacGuffins - you find one from a destroyed clan and return it to the correct race, and if you give it to them for half price you become an honorary member. The time scale of their use is just too long for most campaigns, even at Companion level (at Master level, though, all bets are off, given the scale of the ascension quests humans have to undertake).

The role of the Keeper is obviously up to the DM. Note that the Clan only moves into your new stronghold if it's bigger than your Clan's current one. Just building a stronghold doesn't mean the clan automatically moves in and brings the relic along. Note that the Rules Cyclopedia says (page 134): "The highest rank normally achieved by a PC demihuman is that of Clanholder. A Clanholder serves the Clan, and may indeed own the structure of the Clan stronghold, but he does not control the Clan members."

Basically, PCs aren't supposed to become Clanmasters or Keepers, and aren't supposed to have basically anything to do with Relics. Relics are a DM MacGuffin to use as a goal (or starting point9 for adventures and as an excuse to introduce magic items (probably as rewards) to the PCs.

If you want PCs to be Clanmasters (or Keepers), you'll have to figure out how to handle all this; the rules don't tell you because by default, it's not for PCs.

[Water_Bear]

I don't think PCs are supposed to get anything out of the Clan Relic, as such. Their main purpose appears to be as adventure MacGuffins - you find one from a destroyed clan and return it to the correct race, and if you give it to them for half price you become an honorary member. The time scale of their use is just too long for most campaigns, even at Companion level (at Master level, though, all bets are off, given the scale of the ascension quests humans have to undertake).

Okay, so then are the Lightships / Stoneships / Halfling Flying Kites mainly a flavor thing, a little bit of weirdness when you see a floating craft moored to a tree in an Elven city? Or are they supposed to be treasure, like if you roll "Undersea Boat" on a table four layers down into a dungeon you can say it's actually a lost Dwarven Stoneship?


The role of the Keeper is obviously up to the DM. Note that the Clan only moves into your new stronghold if it's bigger than your Clan's current one. Just building a stronghold doesn't mean the clan automatically moves in and brings the relic along. Note that the Rules Cyclopedia says (page 134): "The highest rank normally achieved by a PC demihuman is that of Clanholder. A Clanholder serves the Clan, and may indeed own the structure of the Clan stronghold, but he does not control the Clan members."

Basically, PCs aren't supposed to become Clanmasters or Keepers, and aren't supposed to have basically anything to do with Relics. Relics are a DM MacGuffin to use as a goal (or starting point9 for adventures and as an excuse to introduce magic items (probably as rewards) to the PCs.

Hmm, that seems kind of odd. Especially since it means the Keeper's Domination ability applies to the PCs as well. And it's not exactly clear what a Clanholder actually does other than building the Stronghold and possibly being an ambassador to human realms.


If you want PCs to be Clanmasters (or Keepers), you'll have to figure out how to handle all this; the rules don't tell you because by default, it's not for PCs.

I doubt I'd ever have opportunity to do so; even with Adventurer Conqueror King compressing the entire Basic Expert Companion range into 14 levels (less for demihumans, 'natch) thats a lot of XP for what is probably just going to be a summer game.

Mainly I just want to understand how Relics and the rules surrounding them apply to a game, so that I can better get how to (or whether to) integrate them with the setting I've built. For example, I've got a ruined Dwarven civilization in the background and lost Forges of Power sound like exactly the sort of thing I could probably use to enrich the setting.

[Rhynn]

Okay, so then are the Lightships / Stoneships / Halfling Flying Kites mainly a flavor thing, a little bit of weirdness when you see a floating craft moored to a tree in an Elven city? Or are they supposed to be treasure, like if you roll "Undersea Boat" on a table four layers down into a dungeon you can say it's actually a lost Dwarven Stoneship?

I'd mostly use them as occasional rewards or plot points, personally.


Hmm, that seems kind of odd. Especially since it means the Keeper's Domination ability applies to the PCs as well. And it's not exactly clear what a Clanholder actually does other than building the Stronghold and possibly being an ambassador to human realms.

Being a Clanholder basically just means you own the stronghold your Clan lives in. Other than that, you adventure normally, can gain a title normally, etc. And yes, the Keeper can dominate you. It somewhat enforces the communality of the demihumans - they put their Clan before themselves, and if you don't, you lose the choice.

Of course, this all assumes you even decide to use Relics, and/or give one to a specific Clan. Many Clans might have had their Relic destroyed or lost, or lost it when their old clanhold was overtaken by monsters or otherwise lost.


Mainly I just want to understand how Relics and the rules surrounding them apply to a game, so that I can better get how to (or whether to) integrate them with the setting I've built. For example, I've got a ruined Dwarven civilization in the background and lost Forges of Power sound like exactly the sort of thing I could probably use to enrich the setting.

That's the best way to use them, I think. They're enormous treasures that are mostly valuable by virtue of the appropriate demihumans wanting it.

With ACK's economic base (AFAIK it was rebuilt from the ground up to make sense?) you might want to adjust how much demihumans will (and can, in the case of individual clans) pay for a Relic. If they can't pay, or the PCs won't deal, they'll use force, generally...

[Water_Bear]

With ACK's economic base (AFAIK it was rebuilt from the ground up to make sense?) you might want to adjust how much demihumans will (and can, in the case of individual clans) pay for a Relic. If they can't pay, or the PCs won't deal, they'll use force, generally...

Yeah, the prices different races would pay seemed a bit wonky to me too. Especially that Elves will apparently pay 20K for information about a Tree of Life, sight unseen, which is only 1/5th the price most races will pay for the whole thing. I guess they've never been characterized as good hagglers, but damn...

[SiuiS]

Elves are immortal. If it turns out you hornswaggled them, they'll just put your likeness and family name into ballads of foes to be beaten and plundered. :smallwink: