Rumblings in the Playground [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

jakethefrapp

2013-05-11, 09:54 PM

oppyu

2013-05-11, 10:00 PM

Pfft yeah, that Giant. Rolling in his piles of money while cruelly laughing at us poor schmucks. Probably twirling his moustache and shouting "YOU'LL NEVER GET ANY REWARDS FOR THE KICKSTARTER! NEVER!"

It isn't that the Giant is busy, or his hand was crippled, or that he has a mountain of work in front of him. It's that he doesn't respect us and has thus decided to put off the rewards until he's gotten bored of having sex on top of his piles of kickstarter money.

TaiLiu

2013-05-11, 10:12 PM

In which jakethefrapp speaks about Kickstarter awards.
From what I've heard, Kickstarter money-givers usually wait a year before their rewards come in. This is commonplace, I think.

It isn't that the Giant is busy, or his hand was crippled, or that he has a mountain of work in front of him. It's that he doesn't respect us and has thus decided to put off the rewards until he's gotten bored of having sex on top of his piles of kickstarter money.
:smallconfused: Admittedly, I'm a bit ignorant on how Kickstarter works, but isn't the money virtual?

oppyu

2013-05-11, 10:18 PM

:smallconfused: Admittedly, I'm a bit ignorant on how Kickstarter works, but isn't the money virtual?
I assume there would have to be some way to take it to the bank and turn it into cash... And if not, I guess the scenario I proposed must be improbable, and the Giant actually does respect his donors. Shocking.

KoboldRevenge

2013-05-11, 10:20 PM

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

*MFW I didn't actually contribute to the KickStarter

Kilo24

2013-05-11, 10:20 PM

As oppyu implied in a hyperbolic and insulting manner, Burlew's thumb being mangled is a major factor in the delay.

Even without that, significant delays are very common in Kickstarters, especially ones that have gotten a massive amount of attention like Order of the Stick's. It has a lot to do with stretch goals, wanting to please the fans with promises, and needing to fulfill a very large number of pledges. In those circumstances, it becomes incredibly hard to avoid optimistic promise, especially to those who have little prior crowdfunding experience. That doesn't include unforeseen circumstances (like the thumb) either.

Personally, I don't expect any Kickstarter to meet the deadline it puts out; I mentally tag on a few months onto it. It's not "right", but it is a widespread problem with the Kickstarter model and should be recognized as such by backers and and the project owners alike.

TaiLiu

2013-05-11, 10:22 PM

As oppyu implied in a hyperbolic and insulting manner, Burlew's thumb being mangled is a major factor in the delay.
Comrade oppyu is jesting, no?

oppyu

2013-05-11, 10:29 PM

Comrade oppyu is jesting, no?
To be fair, 75% jesting, 24% insulting the OP, 1% thinking that the Giant may have really absconded to a tropical island.

Bird

2013-05-11, 11:00 PM

It's really disheartening and feels pretty disrespectful to us who make efforts to buy books and financially support what I think is a quality product. :smallfrown: We respect the skill and time it takes, but if respect isn't mutual, it's going to disappear at an exponential rate. .
What would be really disheartening would be if your entire livelihood revolved around Order of the Stick, and you'd just attracted gobs of new readers due to a wildly successful Kickstarter, but you had to stop production of the comic because you'd cut your thumb on glass. That'd be an awful kick in the teeth, no?

There is no lack of "respect." The Giant has done his mortal human best with a lousy situation. I'm eager to see the KS pdfs, too, but I realize that sometimes things take longer than expected. Sorry to get all philosophical, but you'll be much happier if you let go of your desire for quick gratification, and instead focus on patience & compassion. Really. :smallsmile:

TaiLiu

2013-05-11, 11:03 PM

What would be really disheartening would be if your entire livelihood revolved around Order of the Stick, and you'd just attracted gobs of new readers due to a wildly successful Kickstarter, but you had to stop production of the comic because you'd cut your thumb on glass. That'd be an awful kick in the teeth, no?

There is no lack of "respect." The Giant has done his mortal human best with a lousy situation. I'm eager to see the KS pdfs, too, but I realize that sometimes things take longer than expected. Sorry to get all philosophical, but you'll be much happier if you let go of your desire for quick gratification, and instead focus on patience & compassion. Really. :smallsmile:
Comrade Bird tweets wise words. I echo your statements.

B. Dandelion

2013-05-11, 11:16 PM

You had the impression all the PDFs were gonna get done by the end of 2012?! There was, what, O-Chul, Haleo & Julean, Dim Sun, the Julio Scoundrel thing, plus the three backer's choice stories, the monster minis -- the idea that he was gonna churn out seven ~13 page stories and 4 ~36 page monster sheets in the span of less than a year on top of doing the comic and everything else associated with Kickstarter never once occurred to me. How could that have possibly happened anyway? What was he going to do, use his million dollars to clone himself repeatedly, and maybe buy a version of Adobe Illustrator that interfaced directly with his brain?

I mean I see the line you're quoting and how you might have read it like that but no way. If the Giant seriously, seriously meant he was going to churn out like 300 pages of additional content in that one year plus the comic and on top of making the coloring book and signing books and managing finances and oh god I don't even want to think about it -- if he had meant that exactly I would have expected him to spell that out. Yes, he intends to get the work of twenty Giants done in one single year! If he said something that could be interpreted to mean that unless you applied some common sense to it, I would do the latter.

I was definitely expecting those rewards to get spaced out over a huge length of time and that we would not be seeing some of them for years. This is honestly the first time it occurred to me anyone might expect them all in one go like that.

SaintRidley

2013-05-11, 11:19 PM

Man, Rich is such a jerk receiving more money than he expected and more work than he originally planned to do when he set the original timeline for kickstarter reward distribution. Doubly a jerk for not being able to update the rewards on the page to account for the extra work, and triply so for daring to become injured and winding up behind schedule. Super-Mega jerk for not anticipating some fifteen thousand pledges to process. How dare Rich have the integrity to keep us updated about things and bust his ass working on these rewards. Shame on him. How dare you become inconvenienced by things outside your control, Rich Burlew? Are you not a god? Do you not have control over every aspect of your life? No? Well then how dare you have the temerity to provide entertainment for us?

Please everybody understand that this is sarcasm.

Yendor

2013-05-11, 11:35 PM

To be fair, 75% jesting, 24% insulting the OP, 1% thinking that the Giant may have really absconded to a tropical island.

With everything he has to put up with from the forum, I wouldn't blame him for absconding.

jakethefrapp

2013-05-11, 11:44 PM

[makes a good point]

You brought up a couple of good points, and perhaps it was me misreading/hoping things would be expeditious. I'll fully admit to being caught up in the excitement at the time. This was my first backing of a project on Kickstarter, so I can't speak to average response times.

I will say to Bird that "quick gratification" wasn't something I expected if I was willing to wait 9 months until December, then another 5+ before writing this post...unless you have a *very* different idea of quick than I do. I thought I'd made that point initially, but I guess not.

Are there some legitimate reasons for it taking a long time? Certainly. (I thought I'd made that point, as well...apparently not). In sum total, what I was trying to say is that everyone has a different limit to the patience they can exhibit, and it seems from the negative comments lately might be indicative of that time approaching for more and more. Hyperbolic posturing aside, I don't think it's wrong to point that out.

Edit: I did want to say thanks to Dandelion for providing a thoughtful response that I hadn't considered, rather than just a kneejerk response while going into "sarcastic-defense-of-author mode."

Bulldog Psion

2013-05-12, 12:12 AM

oppyu, I wish there was an applauding smiley so that I could express my appreciation of your mastery of the art of "zing", if I may put it thus. :smallamused:

oppyu

2013-05-12, 12:12 AM

Edit: I did want to say thanks to Dandelion for providing a thoughtful response that I hadn't considered, rather than just a kneejerk response while going into "sarcastic-defense-of-author mode."
Speaking as one of the kneejerk sarcasm defence crowd, the part that provoked the rant from me was the inference that the delays signified disrespect from Rich, implying that he was being intentionally negligent in fulfilling his Kickstarter duties. Complaining about lateness is just regular sour grapes that I'd ignore along with the rest, but that's the part that summoned my 'sarcastic douchebag' side.

Porthos

2013-05-12, 12:22 AM

If you think there is a higher level of bitchiness (for lack of a better word) 'round these parts, I'm afraid to tell you, that you are 100% wrong. There has ALWAYS been a decent level of Internet Drama in the Playground. The reasons may shift, but they've been there for a long time.

It happens when there is nearly 70,000 members on a forum. Believe me, I see it on just about every high trafficked forum.

So, no, I'm afraid I disagree that the pace of the Kickstarter rewards has a single thing to do with any tetchiness you might be seeing.

*thinks*

As a matter of fact, outside of a couple of high profile Suicide by Rules Lawyering, it's been pretty mellow in the Playground by historical standards. If people are a little on edge it's because of the dramatic turn the story has taken. No more, no less. :smallsmile:

137beth

2013-05-12, 12:25 AM

The Giant

2013-05-12, 12:50 AM

There's been a lot of rumbling/unhappy campers in the playground lately, I've noticed, and I think it's representative of how a lot of people have been feeling lately, often coming out in rules-laywering or other dissent.

About 15,000 people (myself included) supported the Kickstarter, and I think many of us feel a bit...kicked...and are afraid to say it on the forum. I think an example might be on Kickstarter update #23, it was implied that most/all of the rewards would be completed by December 2012. Actual text spoilered: ("All the other signed books are out the door, all the crayon drawings are finished, all the PDF stories written and distributed. When all that's done, I'll start working on the Patience packages. It might be May, it might be August, it might be October. It will be before December 31, 2012; beyond that, there are no promises.")

Keep in mind, I think most of us doubted it'd be much before December and have a lot of sympathy for the hand in jury back in September. Let's be honest: things were pretty delayed even before the injury, though. All of that being said, we're approaching the 6-month mark after December and less than half of the non-package rewards have been seen (I think only 3, Belkar, spring monsters, and 9-in-a-row). It's really disheartening and feels pretty disrespectful to us who make efforts to buy books and financially support what I think is a quality product. :smallfrown: We respect the skill and time it takes, but if respect isn't mutual, it's going to disappear at an exponential rate.

Anyway, I'm glad I got that off my chest and feel like it needed to be said.

I will say to Bird that "quick gratification" wasn't something I expected if I was willing to wait 9 months until December, then another 5+ before writing this post...unless you have a *very* different idea of quick than I do. I thought I'd made that point initially, but I guess not.

Are there some legitimate reasons for it taking a long time? Certainly. (I thought I'd made that point, as well...apparently not). In sum total, what I was trying to say is that everyone has a different limit to the patience they can exhibit, and it seems from the negative comments lately might be indicative of that time approaching for more and more. Hyperbolic posturing aside, I don't think it's wrong to point that out.

If you have any suggestions for how I can work faster than I am currently working, I am open to them. Particularly if, for example, you are a licensed physical therapist, have a time machine, are a scientist for Weapon X who can give me a mutant healing factor, or have some other medical, technological, or mystical means of giving me control of my thumb. Because I will take it. I want it. I want to work faster.

What, exactly, should I do at this point? Apologize? I apologize in just about every Kickstarter update. Communicate more? I have detailed graphs about how long things are taking and why. Admit I was wrong about my estimates? I was wrong! Totally, completely wrong. Drop working on the regular comic so I can finish the digital extras? I would have a riot. Just yesterday, someone posted a thread complaining about how I was fulfilling the Kickstarter rewards instead of updating. There is no solution other than me doing exactly what I am currently doing—working as fast as I can, as much as I can. Please, I'm totally serious: What am I supposed to be doing that I am not? Because unless you have a suggestion that goes beyond, "Work faster," I don't see how this thread accomplishes anything other than some sort of veiled threat to stop supporting me if I don't get my act together. Coupled with an attempt to manufacture broad-based agreement with yourself by positing that the recent spate of Rules Lawyering is somehow related.

The cost of the digital rewards was about $5.00 added to each pledge, above and beyond the cost of any physical rewards and postage (and Kickstarter's fees). If you (or anyone) wants a refund of that $5.00, just contact me through the Kickstarter message system and I will issue it via PayPal; you won't get the remaining digital rewards when they come out, obviously. It will be coming out of my own pocket, since the costs have already exceeded the amount of money raised, but I'll do it anyway. If you are one of the less than 1% of backers who did not yet get their physical package and you want a full refund, I can do that too. Further, if anyone wants to stop supporting the comic altogether, they are welcome to do so at any time. If, as a result of circumstances beyond my control, "more and more" people choose to stop supporting the comic, then that's what happens and I'll deal with it. It's not something you need to worry about.

Just about the only thing I can think of to give myself more time to work and less stress is to not have to respond to threads complaining about everything I do, every single day. But there seems to be little chance of that.

Also, apologies to all of the supportive readers who have to sit through yet another rant of mine on another day about another problem. Rest assured that your patience is appreciated.

Bird

2013-05-12, 01:00 AM

I will say to Bird that "quick gratification" wasn't something I expected if I was willing to wait 9 months until December, then another 5+ before writing this post...unless you have a *very* different idea of quick than I do. I thought I'd made that point initially, but I guess not.
Perhaps we do have different ideas. I feel that sometimes good things take years. Unless my life hinges on them some way, I endeavor not to mind the waiting. I certainly don't mind waiting for the KS updates.

Please note that I'm not saying it's wrong to feel frustrated. It's a human reaction. However, in this situation, I feel the most useful thing is to just forget about the original target dates. As you have discussed, the Giant had to go through some serious stuff, and those dates aren't going to happen. Dates five or six or seven months after those: not going to happen, either.

I think it's possible to actively choose not to be upset over this, to just enjoy what comes when it gets here. That's all. :smallsmile:

Particularly if, for example, you are a licensed physical therapist, have a time machine, are a scientist for Weapon X who can give me a mutant healing factor, or have some other medical, technological, or mystical means of giving me control of my thumb.
Giant, please don't submit yourself to Weapon X. They might heal your thumb, but that road only ever leads to an increase in agita.

Mutant Sheep

2013-05-12, 01:02 AM

Mr. Burlew, I continously regret not being a kickstarter groupie, and right now, I feel even moreso than usual. If I could, I'd double whatever I would have scrounged up because of all the extra work you threw into the pot for us. Autographing the books must have been hard enough with poor sir thumb, but you added a few kabillion extra things because so many people supported you. I wish I could be one of them, so my well wishing meant something more than "Hey brah, I read your webcomic", but sadly, I think that will have to be enough. But brah. I read your webcomic.:smalltongue: (And I love it.:smallsmile:)

Bulldog Psion

2013-05-12, 01:06 AM

ericgrau

2013-05-12, 01:12 AM

I love this comic, Rich. It's my favorite. Including the last few months. I'm sure a lot of people do, even though they may not type long paragraphs about it.

Keep a thick skin. Haters gonna hate.

And wow, grouping in the rules-lawyers is an insult to the rules lawyers who are perfectly satisfied. And it takes a lot to give rules lawyers an insult they don't deserve :smalltongue:.

Porthos

2013-05-12, 01:26 AM

And wow, grouping in the rules-lawyers is an insult to the rules lawyers who are perfectly satisfied. And it takes a lot to give rules lawyers an insult they don't deserve :smalltongue:.

I almost typed in Suicide by Mod, but I decided to go for some flair this time. :smalltongue:

Besides, I figure the 99% rules lawyers who are happy with things knew I wasn't talking about them. :smallwink:

Math_Mage

2013-05-12, 01:54 AM

Let me summarize:

"There have been more unhappy posts on the forum than usual [citation needed], ergo more of Rich's readers are unhappy than usual [citation needed], ergo they are unhappy for the exact same reason I am unhappy [citation needed], which is that Rich is producing Kickstarter material at an unreasonably slow pace [citation needed], showing that the Giant doesn't respect his readers [citation needed]."

Do I have that about right, OP?

JessmanCA

2013-05-12, 02:50 AM

I want to say first off that I fully support the Giant and understand his situation, and I've already received my package. I'm just genuinely curious about this:

the costs have already exceeded the amount of money raised,

^Is that really true? The costs of all the goodies we got exceeded 1 million dollars?

Did you expect the goodies to cost a lot less, how much did you estimate they would cost at the time during the kickstarter?

I am very sorry that this has turned into a financial loss for you if so, when we were all trying to help your comic and just get some neat swag along the way. I would have pledged without the swag btw, but it did encourage me to pledge more.. thinking it would help you more too of course..

archaeo

2013-05-12, 03:00 AM

While I don't have any real interest in stepping in the middle of this, I too want to register my support for Mr. Burlew; a charlatan who's only trying to take off with some easy Internet money wouldn't waste his time concurrently producing one of the better fantasy epics being told today. No, the Giant is an artist, and good art isn't easy, regardless of whether or not they're primarily stick figures.

Frankly, despite the shiny Kickstarter exterior, what backers did was invest in an artist. You commissioned work from someone who clearly cares about quality and is striving to deliver it, judging by everything he's said, which has never been unreasonable. And at the same time, he's dealing with a wild horde of fans who are all incredibly invested (some of them financially!) in this story, many of whom bring their own readings to the table, etc. And that all goes without mentioning his accident, or the website's downtime, or the vast number of orders fulfilled.

He's just this guy who's writing a comic, at the same time, and if you take a moment to envision what he has to do everyday to keep this ship afloat, it should be easy to attain a state of optimistic patience. Just relax, OP; haven't you gotten your money's worth just by getting to read what you have?

Copperdragon

2013-05-12, 03:18 AM

There's been a lot of rumbling/unhappy campers in the playground lately, I've noticed, and I think it's representative of how a lot of people have been feeling lately, often coming out in rules-laywering or other dissent.

Actually... I think it is like it was always and as it is everywhere on the internet (and in life).
There always have been loud individuals. There always have been people who did not read updates of all kinds or did not (want to?) understand what was in them or did not have the patience to wait the time some things simply take.

Just now many people who complain have very specific issues to hang their complaints on instead of a general ill feeling but no real mechanism to formulate that. It's easier to say "I am unhappy because of this, that or that" and then go into a lengthy text when compared to the only thing you can complain about is the occasional perceived rules slip/plot-hole or the update schedule. Now we have the kickstarter delays which pile up because they were, let us be honest, a lot and because the author got injured.

I think we have around the same level of complaints and this is just observation bias on your end, either because you "feel" kicked (as you put it) or because you and others have more specific things to talk/complain about than usual (or both, which I think it is).

In all cases, I think the author should ignore this. In fact, I'm always a bit sad when I get a new kickstarter update and Rich again is (has to?) shovelling all those ashes on his head - while we all already knew where the problem lies.

I also want to get the kickstarter stuff and I also want daily updates on the comic. As I'm not getting this now, I rather see the delayed kickstarter-rewards positive: That means I might not get them in a high frequency but I will get them for a longer time, over months always something new. That's a nice extra flow on stuff while the comic runs instead of a one-time firework of material (that'd only have burned out quickly).

If anything, start a campaign to ban glass. :smalltongue:

The Giant

2013-05-12, 03:41 AM

^Is that really true? The costs of all the goodies we got exceeded 1 million dollars?

Did you expect the goodies to cost a lot less, how much did you estimate they would cost at the time during the kickstarter?

I am very sorry that this has turned into a financial loss for you if so, when we were all trying to help your comic and just get some neat swag along the way.

It's complicated. Yes, the total cost of the printing bills, swag bills, postage, Kickstarter fees, and taxes have exceeded the $1.25M raised. Taxes ended up coming in much higher than expected, and in particular a drastic hike in international postage rates earlier this year hit me hard on the autographed packages that had to wait until I could hold a marker again. But, that doesn't mean that I'm losing money on the whole project.

See, the project was not ever constructed to make a profit. It was constructed to more-or-less break even, but in such a way that I had thousands of extra books printed when all the Kickstarter rewards were sent out. Those extra books would then be sold through the normal channels—Ookoodook and your local gaming store—and those sales would be where I made the actual money that I would pay my rent and such with.

As of right now, the cost of printing and fulfilling the goods has topped the amount of money sent to me via Kickstarter, but it has not topped the amount of money directly sent plus the amount I have earned from regular sales since August of last year, when books were once again available in sales channels. So, strictly speaking, the project turned a profit overall. It's just that there's no Kickstarter money sitting in a bank account anymore; I'm only earning the normal trickle of book sales every month. Of course, without Kickstarter, I would have no books left to sell right now, and I would have no trickle of book sales.

The good news is that there is relatively little expense left to incur. Only the postage on the remaining Patience and crayon drawing packages remains, and I've already put that much into my postage account to make sure I don't accidentally spend it.

VanIsleKnight

2013-05-12, 04:11 AM

I continue to enjoy your work, and smile every time I see an update. I don't expect one to happen every other week, heck, I don't expect them to even happen every month. Whenever you update, I'm happy, because the story you've told has been superb. I went out to get Start of Darkness because I wanted to know more about the characters and support you, and when I am able to afford the other books I'll purchase them as well.

You make me want to be a storyteller.

pasta

2013-05-12, 05:06 AM

The cost of the digital rewards was about $5.00 added to each pledge, above and beyond the cost of any physical rewards and postage ... If you (or anyone) wants a refund of that $5.00, just contact me through the Kickstarter message system and I will issue it via PayPal

Does this offer work in reverse - say, if someone was on a general Kickstarter boycott at the time but really regrets not contributing to your project, could they donate now to get access to the digital rewards? :smallbiggrin:

In addition, would you allow a further amount given as a donation to go towards the "help The Giant de-stress" fund? :smallsmile:

Kish

2013-05-12, 05:14 AM

snip
Y'might want to scroll down to 9/19/2012 (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#nxVTl064ek881OnVCiL) and read from there.

Suffice to say that Rich certainly went into September expecting that by May of 2013 he would have more done than he does now have done, both of the Kickstarter rewards and the general comic, but it seems particularly cruel to yell at him for not having made that level of progress, as things turned out.

Archwizard

2013-05-12, 07:47 AM

A lot of people posted some good stuff in support of you here Giant, and given your expectations vs. actual outcome of the Kickstarter, you know there's a ton of people who support you that don't necessarily speak up here in the Playground (I know I've seen plenty of new posters who said they only created Playground accounts due to the Kickstarter).

You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

I seriously think you should do what you said here:

Just about the only thing I can think of to give myself more time to work and less stress is to not have to respond to threads complaining about everything I do, every single day.

ChristianSt

2013-05-12, 08:04 AM

Would I prefer to have my Kickstarter rewards now: absolutely. (I'm still waiting patiently for a physical (non-patience) package, but I'm fine with that - so I can't really say I got everything I wanted and other people don't concern me.)

But I'm fine with the pace that is going on. It is (nearly) perfectly understandable what's going on, and I have zero (or as close to zero as it is possibly in such things) fear that we are not getting what was promised.

This week I backed my 35th Kickstarter project, and until today this is the project that I have the least concerns about, sure I would like to get some more frequent updates (I'm not sure where the sweet spot is, but I would like updates somewhere around every other week, at least every month - but I can see that it is hard to push an update if you have the feeling you haven't accomplished enough). But as of now the update rate is still quite good. After the Kickstarter closed there were 31 updates, even if you say some kinda doesn't count (e.g. the double-update for Monster Minis or the Belkar story download links), you have an average somewhere around 1 update every 2-3 weeks, so if Rich doesn't loop too much I think update-wise this is still a really good project compared to others I see on Kickstarter.

And there is even one benefit with the slow pace: Any day there could be an update that we get the next totally awesome reward! (Heck, I was totally blown away the day I suddenly out of nowhere received my "Stick it to You"-reward.) So maybe in 2 months (totally random number, since I have zero idea what Rich makes next and how long it will take) we suddenly get an awesome story about the CPPD or a bunch of wallpapers without really expecting it! [And from my point of view I would nearly consider all digital content as bonus - even without the digital content the Kickstarter deal wasn't shabby, so with that mindset you get much more fun out of the deal :smallwink:]

And to Rich: Thanks for your hard work!

King of Nowhere

2013-05-12, 09:24 AM

I am a researcher.
In my job, getting delayed because things don't work as they should is commonplace.
So, I am totally understanding of rich getting delayed. his work is, too, one in which things often are delayed.
As long as I see some progress on the workometer, I am satisfied that Rich is working on it.

Ron Miel

2013-05-12, 09:33 AM

If you have any suggestions for how I can work faster than I am currently working, I am open to them.

Don't work faster, work smarter.

sparkyinbozo

2013-05-12, 11:03 AM

I remember being like the OP *dodges flung item* in that I'd interpreted that KS update/phrase the same way and changed my reward level to a patience package with the hope that it'd be here by spring.

Then I remember thinking a few days later, "Hmm...nahh, that can't be quite right. So it goes." It'll just make that day a that much cooler when it does show up in my mailbox.

Of course, in September all bets kind of went out the window...hand injuries are really only second to head injuries in level of complexity. It's obscene the number of small muscle bundles, nerves, etc. that are in hands. It's a the price we pay for humans having hands that do awesome things, like draw D&D comics. :smallbiggrin:

pendell

2013-05-12, 11:25 AM

Mr. Burlew, My normal response when confronted with an issue such as this is not to complain. Instead, my first instinct is to ask "How can I help?"

None of us can draw for you, I think. But is there any other work you do that's taking up your time that could be done by volunteers from the playground? I didn't participate in kickstarter, but I could probably find it in myself to contribute a little time if it means you have more time and energy to work on your projects, including updating the regular comic.

The Playground has already demonstrated its generosity in terms of money to fund kickstarter in the first place. Might it be possilbe something similar could be done in terms of work?

As towards mystical means ... we'll see what we can do on that front.

Regrettably no mutant healing factors. I quit working for the government years ago. Might be able to swing a small minibar filled with refreshing adult beverages while you're working , though. :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

factotum

2013-05-12, 11:49 AM

Giant, please don't submit yourself to Weapon X. They might heal your thumb, but that road only ever leads to an increase in agita.

However, maybe the Giant could get adamantium drawing tools that pop out of his hands when he needs them? That'd be kind of cool. :smallwink:

CoffeeIncluded

2013-05-12, 11:51 AM

It's complicated. Yes, the total cost of the printing bills, swag bills, postage, Kickstarter fees, and taxes have exceeded the $1.25M raised. Taxes ended up coming in much higher than expected, and in particular a drastic hike in international postage rates earlier this year hit me hard on the autographed packages that had to wait until I could hold a marker again. But, that doesn't mean that I'm losing money on the whole project.

See, the project was not ever constructed to make a profit. It was constructed to more-or-less break even, but in such a way that I had thousands of extra books printed when all the Kickstarter rewards were sent out. Those extra books would then be sold through the normal channels—Ookoodook and your local gaming store—and those sales would be where I made the actual money that I would pay my rent and such with.

As of right now, the cost of printing and fulfilling the goods has topped the amount of money sent to me via Kickstarter, but it has not topped the amount of money directly sent plus the amount I have earned from regular sales since August of last year, when books were once again available in sales channels. So, strictly speaking, the project turned a profit overall. It's just that there's no Kickstarter money sitting in a bank account anymore; I'm only earning the normal trickle of book sales every month. Of course, without Kickstarter, I would have no books left to sell right now, and I would have no trickle of book sales.

The good news is that there is relatively little expense left to incur. Only the postage on the remaining Patience and crayon drawing packages remains, and I've already put that much into my postage account to make sure I don't accidentally spend it.

Well, now I know what else I'm getting for my birthday this summer.

King of Nowhere

2013-05-12, 12:05 PM

just read rich's posts that i missed before. they imply that is thumb is still not healed, which I hoped it was.
But I understand. I once strained an ankle in a bad way. there were no broken bones or anything, but it sstill took me 2 years to fully recover. and even now, 5 years later, that ankle is slightly weaker than the other one.
The human body is a truly wonderful machine, but as for repairing damage it don't really lives up to expectations.

Actually, it could be much better at regenerating, and we are just appproaching the scientific level where it would be poossible to unleash such potential. Except, all those blocks to our regenerating potential were put there by evolution as a defence against tumor. easily regenerating cells means a much greater chance some of them will go out of control. So, we may be able to give rich some healing factor, but until we have a reliable cure for cancer, that healing factor would also reduce his life expectancy to a few years.

EDIT: and I'm quite sad to see that he spent for the kickstarter more than we pledged and is making money only through selling books. I was hoping he would get enough money to not worry about financial outcomes for a few years at least.

sparkyinbozo

2013-05-12, 01:00 PM

However, maybe the Giant could get adamantium drawing tools that pop out of his hands when he needs them? That'd be kind of cool. :smallwink:

This was made of win.

Tre of the Wood

2013-05-12, 04:24 PM

Out of curiosity, is there any way to donate now that the kickstarter is over? I have bought every book and donated via kickstarter, but news that the kickstarted didn't actually turn a profit really distresses me. I'd hate to see the comic stop, and even if it isn't going to, would happily make a donation. Is there such an option?

Tre of the Wood

2013-05-12, 04:33 PM

Math_Mage

2013-05-12, 05:06 PM

This was made of win.

Adamantium win, in fact.

137beth

2013-05-12, 07:37 PM

Does this offer work in reverse - say, if someone was on a general Kickstarter boycott at the time but really regrets not contributing to your project, could they donate now to get access to the digital rewards? :smallbiggrin:

In addition, would you allow a further amount given as a donation to go towards the "help The Giant de-stress" fund? :smallsmile:

Ooh! Me too, can I get an anti-refund also?

Bulldog Psion

2013-05-12, 08:39 PM

Ooh! Me too, can I get an anti-refund also?

I'm also up for contributing if I can. :smallbiggrin: Who would have thought how this thread would turn out, eh?

Tre of the Wood

2013-05-12, 09:30 PM

It's kinda off-topic from the original thread. You probably want a new thread about anti-refunds, since if we co-opt this thread, it will be locked. :smalltongue:

zingbat

2013-05-12, 11:18 PM

Anyway, I'm glad I got that off my chest and feel like it needed to be said.

Well, I'm sure everyone is glad you're feeling better. Now, any suggestions on how to heal a potentially crippling thumb injury?

Geez, man. Do you not understand that Rich is working himself to the limit? Do you think he just got a little papercut on his thumb? Do you envision him sitting around on the couch chugging beer all day, laughing at the tears you shed over the missing summer monster minis?

Here's a free clue from Neil Gaiman: Rich Burlew is not your bitch. (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html). Go read that blog post. Then, please, wait patiently (and quietly) while Rich frantically catches up on his ridiculously backed-up workload and at the same time tries to heal a rather important part of his anatomy that was nearly sliced off. OK?

SadisticFishing

2013-05-12, 11:54 PM

Here's the main thing for a fan like myself - it feels that the Giant isn't being perfectly efficient. I love this comic to death, most complaints are things I feel are a waste of time... But the update and Kickstarter schedule are very important things.

The thing about OotS is that most comics are a two man deal. One artist, one author... Rich is a great stick figure artist (and other kinds of artist, but that's not relevant here), but that's not exactly a completely unique skill. What is unique about Mr. Burlew is that he's easily one of the best fantasy authors I've ever read. So what we need here is some division of labour. I'm not sure how to make it fiscally efficient, but given OotS' popularity, it shouldn't be impossible to turn that popularity into profit.

I know this may seem absurd, but I, for one, would pay money for a better update schedule. Straight up, I would donate $X per month to keep the comic rolling at a reasonable pace. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I don't know how possible this is. Some way to turn OotS' popularity into both a) more comics for us and b) more profit for the author.

The whole point of markets is the ability to make a and b happen. If anyone has any more specific ideas, let me know.

Ted The Bug

2013-05-13, 12:00 AM

Please, I'm totally serious: What am I supposed to be doing that I am not?

I'm not sure whether that was rhetorical or not, but I'll answer anyway: don't worry about the grumblers! The time and energy you spend knocking down the complainers - who, BTW, are an inevitable side affect of any media that has been around for a decade and that has hundreds of thousands of fans - could be spent working, or relaxing, or doing RL stuff, and that's not even counting the lack of stress that ignoring them would bring. As one of said fans who loves 99% of what you do, and who shrugs off the 1% that's not my taste, it honestly does frustrate me when one person grousing (in this case, I think the OP is being fairly reasonable, but this is a more generalized thing) gets your time and effort.

I remember when there wasn't a new comic for a month, and when SSaDT took ages longer to get together than expected. Sure, I wished that wasn't the case, and it was kind of annoying. But OOTS is one comic strip. That's it. It's something that I really love to read, and something that I'm sure I'll continue to support no matter what (unless, despite your assurance, the Snarl is modern Earth, in which case you'll never get a dime from me again :smalltongue: ).

When it takes a long time, or when a product moves slowly, I think "Ah, that sucks, I'm on the edge of my seat! Guess I'll go do something else for now." I don't feel compelled to rant and rave and act entitled that my free page-or-so a week of comic strip is running late. Hell, if the update schedule really got to the point of bothering me, I'd just kick back and not visit for a couple months and then have a whole mess of updates to go through (as I've done before).

This is horribly disjoined (thanks, jetlag!), but I hope the main message is clear: for 99% of the people who read OOTS, it's a fun, great story, and we're in it for the long haul. If you're really asking for something you can do, I swear when I say that if ranty threads are stressful, just ignore them! The 99% of us won't mind, and you'll have more time to work, sleep, or do whatever.

Wall-of-text over.

jere7my

2013-05-13, 12:09 AM

The thing about OotS is that most comics are a two man deal. One artist, one author... Rich is a great stick figure artist (and other kinds of artist, but that's not relevant here), but that's not exactly a completely unique skill. What is unique about Mr. Burlew is that he's easily one of the best fantasy authors I've ever read. So what we need here is some division of labour. I'm not sure how to make it fiscally efficient, but given OotS' popularity, it shouldn't be impossible to turn that popularity into profit.

I really don't think Rich needs well-intentioned but fundamentally ignorant business advice from us. I don't mean ignorant as an insult—I mean there are ten thousand things involved in running a business and being an artist, and we are privy to maybe a half dozen of them.

I also really like Rich's stick figure art style, and I think he has, over 886 comics, elevated it to something other people working in the same style can't do. He innovates. I have no idea whether he'd want to delegate some of that to someone else, and wouldn't want to put words in his mouth, but I find the notion that he could do so without the quality taking a hit insulting.

So "what we need here" is for people to stop telling Rich what he needs to do, and stop complaining that the free ice cream isn't being scooped quickly enough. Go hiking. Read a book. Learn patience.

SadisticFishing

2013-05-13, 12:20 AM

I'm by no means saying he should give up on the art style, just that someone else can do the grunt work of the art.

TaiLiu

2013-05-13, 12:24 AM

I'm by no means saying he should give up on the art style, just that someone else can do the grunt work of the art.
"Grunt work?" Comrade, The Giant's style is an elegant painting, not some mashed-up drawings. :smallconfused:

oppyu

2013-05-13, 12:26 AM

This thread served it's purpose of rallying all the people who defend the Giant at the slightest hint of criticism, as well as annoying the Giant himself. Now that it's transitioned into suggestions about how the Giant could theoretically improve his production from people who aren't the Giant, can it be locked now?

SadisticFishing

2013-05-13, 12:42 AM

Hm. That may have come out wrong, I suppose? I don't think so. I don't mean that all the art is grunt work. At all. There's no way I could reproduce that at all.

I don't think that I can really get across what I want to properly, so I'll just say that a really good copycat would very much help efficiency. People can copy all sorts of art styles, why not this one? Wouldn't even have to be for everything in the strips. Just anything that's already been done before.

ThatNickGuy

2013-05-13, 12:42 AM

My Kickrstarter pledge was for all the books. And honestly, that's all I ever wanted. Even all the extra stuff Rich sent, from the stickers to the colouring book and everything else...that was all a bonus to me. I wanted the books. I got the books.

He can take all the damn time he wants with anything else. I got what I wanted.

Daubechies4

2013-05-13, 12:47 AM

I'd subscribe to this comic if it were behind a paywall.

Actually, what I'd really love would be a chance to buy digital copies of all the books. I bought the physical books (including some copies for friends), but I prefer to read off tablets and e-readers. Every once in a while, I go back and reread parts of the comic to refresh my memory, but I rarely haul out my physical copies for this; I just read off the web site again. I know this means I'm missing some bonus strips, but I like to keep my books in good condition and I hate fumbling with my clip-on reading light.

Also, I have one friend who I know would LOVE "Start of Darkness," but he flatly replies that he's not interested (I've offered to buy him a copy) because he refuses to read *any* physical books anymore, now that he's used to his iPad.

I'd gladly re-buy all the books in digital form if I could. Unfortunately, I seem to remember reading (in an FAQ perhaps?) that Rich didn't want to do this for some reason, but I can't remember why. That's disappointing, but it's his decision and there are probably factors I haven't considered. Just saying I'd pounce on the opportunity to buy PDFs (or epubs or mobis or whatever) if that's ever reconsidered (hoping, hoping, hoping!).

I would LOVE to see faster updates, of course, but certainly not at the expense of quality. It's overwhelmingly obvious that a lot more thought and effort was poured into the 8xx strips than the 0xx strips, so it's hardly surprising they take longer to produce. I just slurp 'em up as they come in, and shake my head in amazement that I get to enjoy something so cool and special for free.

Savannah

2013-05-13, 01:05 AM

I don't think that I can really get across what I want to properly, so I'll just say that a really good copycat would very much help efficiency. People can copy all sorts of art styles, why not this one? Wouldn't even have to be for everything in the strips. Just anything that's already been done before.

Go try. No, really, I'll wait. As a fan artist, I always get annoyed when I see suggestions to use a hired artist, as the people suggesting it never have any idea how hard it is to mimic Rich's style accurately. I've seen lots of great fan artists, but I have yet to see someone who consistently puts out stuff that is indistinguishable from Rich's. Also, I'm not quite sure what it is you're suggesting the hired artist would do -- I'm quite sure Rich already reuses things that have been done before without needing someone else to copy, paste, and make minor tweaks for him.

7RED7

2013-05-13, 01:46 AM

If you have any suggestions for how I can work faster than I am currently working, I am open to them. Particularly if, for example, you are a licensed physical therapist, have a time machine, are a scientist for Weapon X who can give me a mutant healing factor, or have some other medical, technological, or mystical means of giving me control of my thumb. Because I will take it. I want it. I want to work faster.

Just about the only thing I can think of to give myself more time to work and less stress is to not have to respond to threads complaining about everything I do, every single day. But there seems to be little chance of that.

I believe I have a simple solution to this. Every time someone posts one of these threads, the poster has one week (or until other playgroundees have responded with a total of 10 Thogs, at which point the thread gets smashed) to redeem their honor by providing a gourmet breakfast-in-bed at the time and place of your choosing. Naturally, culinary resources and travel expenses will be the responsibility of the whinypants poster.

If you do not wish to engage the individual then the BIB could simply be received by family or friends, accompanied by a disapproving tut-tut (or even a z-snap if they're feeling sassy), and transferred to you in your preferred manner.

This would save you much time and effort that would normally go into deciding which breakfast you feel active enough to bother scrabbling together. A proper breakfast-in-bed should also go a long way towards reducing your overall stress levels as well.

I think this is the best way to kill two rocs with one meteor swarm.

B. Dandelion

2013-05-13, 01:50 AM

This thread served it's purpose of rallying all the people who defend the Giant at the slightest hint of criticism,

Yourself included?

oppyu

2013-05-13, 02:04 AM

Yourself included?
Yup. I thought I had typed 'myself included' into the original post, but apparently not.

Elder Tsofu

2013-05-13, 02:16 AM

Outsourcing the art or the dialogue? That's just insane.
To chop up the creation in two would probably take longer time since Mr. Burlew now must communicate his intents to a second party who then must create and get feedback from Mr. Burlew. And what would happen if the second party quits, slacks of or gets missing? What would the consequences be when Mr. Burlew intends to sell the books containing those comics?

SadisticFishing

2013-05-13, 02:19 AM

factotum

2013-05-13, 02:26 AM

I'd gladly re-buy all the books in digital form if I could. Unfortunately, I seem to remember reading (in an FAQ perhaps?) that Rich didn't want to do this for some reason, but I can't remember why.

He's said that he won't do digital copies because doing so would inevitably cut into the sales of the *physical* books, and you need to print a lot of those in order to cut the printing costs down. Ergo, if he doesn't sell enough of them he can't afford to print them in the first place, which is a bit of a problem for everybody who DOESN'T want them in digital form!

Emanick

2013-05-13, 02:31 AM

I feel like I misjudged how difficult it is to draw this style and I'm not sure how to back out of the conversation without looking like more of a jerk than I am.

It was an honest mistake, apologies.

Hm. Still feels like there should be a more efficient way to go about this. Oh well.

Don't worry about it; you were just trying to help. :smallsmile:

I too feel like there ought to be a way for those of us willing to shell out extra money for OOTS to help Rich speed up work in some way. No idea how we could go about doing so, though. Maybe this is just my undying faith in the power of economics talking. :smalltongue:

Tev

2013-05-13, 03:34 AM

What, exactly, should I do at this point?

Just ignore the rants.

And this forum is really not full of jest or anything recently, actually it is so heavily moderated that for average internet forum it is really REALLY peaceful and friendly place. (maybe even too much sometimes)

edit: gosh I'm slow with responding

Skyeyes

2013-05-13, 03:42 AM

If you have any suggestions for how I can work faster than I am currently working, I am open to them. Particularly if, for example, you are a licensed physical therapist, have a time machine, are a scientist for Weapon X who can give me a mutant healing factor, or have some other medical, technological, or mystical means of giving me control of my thumb. Because I will take it. I want it. I want to work faster.

I don't know how Kickstarter funding works, but couldn't you hire someone to help you to do work when you raised money? I.e.

1) Artist assistant to do routine work, like painting and backgrounds, or framing and composition

2) Manager, different approach, you continue to do all art, he does all scheduling, prioritizing, negotiations, publishing, designing plush toys, etc, etc.

Of course I'm not a lawyer, you will also need legal advice to how hire others, how to include them in credits, how to protect your int.property and such.
But I think every business should be scalable (sp?), imagine yourself as naval captain, there will be time when you'll be filming OotS saga movies and sell Lego sets, it shouldn't rely on your 'thumb', its your ideas and vision what matters, let others do some job too :)
P.S. I tried my best to not sound offending, English isn't my primary language, I appreciate your comic, best wishes and regards to you.
P.P.S. Yoohoo, my first post, though I posted earlier on D&D 3.5 rules, yes I am proud rule-lawyer, beware.

Math_Mage

2013-05-13, 04:04 AM

The thing about OotS is that most comics are a two man deal. One artist, one author... Rich is a great stick figure artist (and other kinds of artist, but that's not relevant here), but that's not exactly a completely unique skill. What is unique about Mr. Burlew is that he's easily one of the best fantasy authors I've ever read. So what we need here is some division of labour. I'm not sure how to make it fiscally efficient, but given OotS' popularity, it shouldn't be impossible to turn that popularity into profit.

An understandable mistake. The Giant's skill with stick figures is all but unique. Scour the Internet for stick figure comics; you'll find plenty of Rich copycats, but none with quite the refinement the Giant has reached after drawing around 1200 strips of OotS comics and who knows how many standalone stick figure drawings. His skill in that regard is probably MORE unique than his storytelling skill, as storytelling is an art many cultivate, while stick figure art is not.

Which is not to say there are no potential benefits to having a partner in drawing, but it is unlikely to have a net benefit for the Giant.

Savannah

2013-05-13, 04:41 AM

I feel like I misjudged how difficult it is to draw this style and I'm not sure how to back out of the conversation without looking like more of a jerk than I am.

It was an honest mistake, apologies.

If it makes you feel better, you weren't the first and you won't be the last.

1) Artist assistant to do routine work, like painting and backgrounds, or framing and composition

OotS isn't painted. Vector programs make copy-pasting and tweaking backgrounds very easy, so I rather doubt a background artist would shave off much time. In fact, a background or framing/composition artist would likely ADD time, as Rich would need to write the script, send it to them, wait for them to do the work and send it back to him, and make any edits needed or send it back for reworking and wait some more. (Of course, I don't know how Rich works, so this is just speculation, but I rather suspect that if an assistant artist would help, he would have considered it already.)

onionbreath

2013-05-13, 09:46 AM

Don't worry about it; you were just trying to help. :smallsmile:

I too feel like there ought to be a way for those of us willing to shell out extra money for OOTS to help Rich speed up work in some way. No idea how we could go about doing so, though. Maybe this is just my undying faith in the power of economics talking. :smalltongue:

Are there any administrative or other tasks we can help out with?

sparkyinbozo

2013-05-13, 11:05 AM

I actually had an idea in class this morning about this: I remember KS updates having the "5 things I've done since" sections. I really liked those, it felt like we were kept right abreast with things. Would it be possible to add those in whenever a new comic is posted with the initial announcement post?

This would accomplish the task of keeping everyone up-to-date, would only take a few seconds, and could be pointed at as a "Yes, I have been working hard and there's a historic record, end of story" factor. (Personally, I am also much more proactive and/or productive if I have to report it back, which might be an added bonus?)

Jay R

2013-05-13, 02:01 PM

By Piet Hein:

TWIN MYSTERY

To many people artists seem
undisciplined and lawless.
Such laziness, with such great gifts,
seems little short of crime.
One mystery is how they make
the things they make so flawless;
another, what they're doing with
their energy and time.

Porthos

2013-05-13, 03:27 PM

An understandable mistake. The Giant's skill with stick figures is all but unique. Scour the Internet for stick figure comics; you'll find plenty of Rich copycats, but none with quite the refinement the Giant has reached after drawing around 1200 strips of OotS comics and who knows how many standalone stick figure drawings.

1373.25 comic pages to be precise. 1425.167 pages if you count all of the chapter splash pages and various other extras in the books that are done in OotS style. And many many many more if you count the Kickstarter Updates, the various doddles he has done over the years, and all of the Kickstarter commissions.

...

A) Don't judge me. :smalltongue:

B) Yeah, that's a LOT of stick figure drawing. Stands to reason he's gotten a little good at it. :smallwink:

pendell

2013-05-13, 03:55 PM

...

Any necromancers in the playground? Can we zombify *just his thumb* ?

:smallbiggrin:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Bird

2013-05-13, 05:55 PM

1373.25 comic pages to be precise. 1425.167 pages if you count all of the chapter splash pages and various other extras in the books that are done in OotS style.
I've gotta ask: how did you figure out those decimals? 1425.167? Were you measuring individual panels as fractions of pages?

Acanous

2013-05-13, 06:17 PM

Porthos

2013-05-13, 06:27 PM

Were you measuring individual panels as fractions of pages?

Not quite. There were a few comics/extras in SS&DT and DStP that were only either a vertical or horizontal row(s) of strips and not a full page. I just eye-balled how much of a standard page they took in each instance and went on from there. :smallsmile:

King of Nowhere

2013-05-13, 06:31 PM

I too feel like there ought to be a way for those of us willing to shell out extra money for OOTS to help Rich speed up work in some way. No idea how we could go about doing so, though. Maybe this is just my undying faith in the power of economics talking. :smalltongue:

That just triggered in me an image of rich enslaved and chained to a desk drawing oots, with a slavemaster throwing coins at him everytime he slowed down.
And now I got another vision of rich as a slot machine. you put coins into a slit on his forehead, and he draws oos for a limited time.

Unfortunately, people cannot be made to work over a certain treeshold, no matter how much money you throw at them

The Giant

2013-05-13, 06:48 PM

OotS isn't painted. Vector programs make copy-pasting and tweaking backgrounds very easy, so I rather doubt a background artist would shave off much time. In fact, a background or framing/composition artist would likely ADD time, as Rich would need to write the script, send it to them, wait for them to do the work and send it back to him, and make any edits needed or send it back for reworking and wait some more. (Of course, I don't know how Rich works, so this is just speculation, but I rather suspect that if an assistant artist would help, he would have considered it already.)

This. I can't think of any task where it wouldn't take more time to instruct, check, and correct than to just do it the way I want it the first time.

I actually had an idea in class this morning about this: I remember KS updates having the "5 things I've done since" sections. I really liked those, it felt like we were kept right abreast with things. Would it be possible to add those in whenever a new comic is posted with the initial announcement post?

This would accomplish the task of keeping everyone up-to-date, would only take a few seconds, and could be pointed at as a "Yes, I have been working hard and there's a historic record, end of story" factor. (Personally, I am also much more proactive and/or productive if I have to report it back, which might be an added bonus?)

Of all the well-intentioned but ultimately impractical ideas put forth, this is by far the worst. (No offense.) Basically, this would be asking me to not post a comic until I finished five tasks that I could report. Since "finish the comic" is only 1 such task, every strip would be held hostage while I struggle to finish 4 other things. If you think the strip updates slowly now, something like this would practically guarantee 2-3 weeks between each strip, every time. That's the main reason I dropped it from the Kickstarter updates.

Unfortunately, people cannot be made to work over a certain treeshold, no matter how much money you throw at them

Also, this.

EmperorSarda

2013-05-13, 06:54 PM

Of all the well-intentioned but ultimately impractical ideas put forth, this is by far the worst. (No offense.) Basically, this would be asking me to not post a comic until I finished five tasks that I could report.

Honestly... I'd rather not know what all you are up to. You don't need to be held accountable to us on how you use your time. Yeah, it is cool that you keep us updated with the Kickstarter on what you are getting done. But to extend it to the online comic, is as you said, impractical. And likely with such reporting of what you get done, you'd get people trying to micro-manage your time.

theangelJean

2013-05-13, 09:29 PM

Hmm.
I'm not an artist, and not very well informed with how the Giant actually draws the comic, so this suggestion may either already be in force, or be completely impractical. All the same, it is being offered with the best of intentions.

If you have a file with all of the character bodies and faces, seperated for easy crop and paste, it will cut down on the ammount you actually need to draw. That would allow you to click and drag bodies and expressions without needing to move your thumb (Although I understand it is still painful and frustrating.)
I don't know if that would cut down on the time it would take to get a page together (Most certainly if you don't have an image file in place already, compiling one would take a great deal of time. We could do that for you, though, with an archive binge and a few dedicated forumgoers.)
but it would cut down on thumb-use.

According to the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq3), Rich does already have such a file, which includes "a series of frequently-used poses". However, the idea that he can just click and drag them into place would be a gross simplification and a severe underestimate of Rich's skill with this art style.

I'm not an artist, but just looking at comic 886 I can see so many things that would need to be adjusted and tweaked.
- Because of the composition and perspective of each panel, in the first page of the two-parter there are only two pairs of two panels where Roy is the same size (at my best guess, they might not be exactly the same even then). That's at least five sizes for seven panels with Roy in them, and he'd have to make that decision for all the characters each time. And it's not a case of "this size for this picture", I'd expect a reasonable amount of resizing each character in relation to the others until it felt right.
- Even if he doesn't draw the characters' arms from scratch every single panel, there'd still be a decent amount of adjustment to fit in with the position of other characters/elements. Same for head tilt and facial expression.
- So many non-character elements. Weapons, magic auras, movement lines, speech bubbles, sound effects, musical notes, character wounds. I'm guessing most of these wouldn't be in the frequently-used file, and all of them would need position adjustments rather than just "this belongs in this part of the frame".
- Innovation - Rich is continually finding ways of representing things we've never seen before in-comic. In the last ten comics alone, we've seen loosening of tail-grappling (878), a character dizzy enough the floor tilts (879), a character burnt by sunlight (882), summoning pools (883), an empty skull sliced in half (886), depiction of a mind-affecting enchantment (886 again) and of course the wonderful non-standard layout of 887. All of which are new to the comic, as far as I know.

And all of that is after he's already decided what happens in the strip, written the script, decided what goes in each panel, decided the relative size of each panel and roughed out the composition of elements in the panels. (For all I know those parts could take the longest, I have no idea how Rich works.)

Now I know you're not saying click-and-drag is all there is to putting the comic together, but I still think we're all underestimating the amount of work (and thumb-work) that goes into the comic. There's probably plenty of other things I haven't thought of, after all...

silveralen

2013-05-13, 10:08 PM

This isn't really on topic I guess, but I'd like to mention I think we are pretty lucky to have gotten as much as we have. From personal experience I was expecting a far longer delay due to his injury and I think it'd be good to realize how hard it must have been for Giant to do as much as he already has. It could have been much worse, delay wise.

Anatares

2013-05-13, 10:25 PM

OP is an idiot (I think that's been deliberated over enough already though), but I just wanted to say I would've backed the kickstarter if I wasn't flat broke around the time it was going on ^-^; Adult life has been tumultuous. And, although I have no small amount of respect for you and all the work that you do, I remember reading somewhere that you maybe possibly would release a print version of the PDFs you're doing for the kickstarter? If so, I wanted to express my interest in buying them up since I missed out (Now that I DO have a small amount of money) :smallsmile:

TaiLiu

2013-05-13, 10:31 PM

OP is an idiot...
Hey, now! That's untrue. Comrade jakethefrapp merely expelled his frustrations out onto the forum. It was not a very wise thing to do, especially on a forum with so many fans of The Giant, but saying 'idiot' is taking it a bit too far.

oppyu

2013-05-13, 10:39 PM

Hey, now! That's untrue. Comrade jakethefrapp merely expelled his frustrations out onto the forum. It was not a very wise thing to do, especially on a forum with so many fans of The Giant, but saying 'idiot' is taking it a bit too far.
I kinda feel bad for the guy. He does this big passive-aggressive post hoping to rally the disaffected masses around the banner of 'GIVE US OUR KICKSTARTER REWARDS', and all that happens is a bunch of people including the Giant descend to tell him what he said is stupid.

TaiLiu

2013-05-13, 10:49 PM

I kinda feel bad for the guy. He does this big passive-aggressive post hoping to rally the disaffected masses around the banner of 'GIVE US OUR KICKSTARTER REWARDS', and all that happens is a bunch of people including the Giant descend to tell him what he said is stupid.
Yes, it was failed quest.

The Vanishing Hitchhiker

2013-05-13, 10:59 PM

The problem with some of these time-saving suggestions - finding an assistant, outsourcing some art duties, ramping up a copy-paste system - is that they would still take time and effort to implement and perfect, ironically still delaying the very things they're meant to speed up in the first place! Further, has anyone yet raised the point that an assistant or artist would likely not wish to do the work for free?

sparkyinbozo

2013-05-13, 11:29 PM

Of all the well-intentioned but ultimately impractical ideas put forth, this is by far the worst. (No offense.) Basically, this would be asking me to not post a comic until I finished five tasks that I could report. Since "finish the comic" is only 1 such task, every strip would be held hostage while I struggle to finish 4 other things.

:smallfrown: Ouch...well, a little hurtful, but luckiliy I wore the big boy pants today. :smalltongue:

I was picturing just simple things like "added new panel to X ," "wrote text for Julian's 2nd act" or "mailed off another patience package this week." My perspective was that didn't seem like a big demand (no hostage pun intended), but I understand that there are reasonable reasons for not doing so. ... I think that my Starcraft habit has force-marched me into permanent multitasking and I forget that some people prefer to start a task and see it through full-bore.

Skyeyes

2013-05-13, 11:44 PM

Further, has anyone yet raised the point that an assistant or artist would likely not wish to do the work for free?

Assistant doesn't have to work for free, don't know where did you find this suggestion. Obvious point was to use Kickstarter money, you see, that would be little portion of 1.25M raised.

SaintRidley

2013-05-13, 11:47 PM

Assistant doesn't have to work for free, don't know where did you find this suggestion. Obvious point was to use Kickstarter money, you see, that would be little portion of 1.25M raised.

I direct you to this:

If you (or anyone) wants a refund of that $5.00, just contact me through the Kickstarter message system and I will issue it via PayPal; you won't get the remaining digital rewards when they come out, obviously. It will be coming out of my own pocket, since the costs have already exceeded the amount of money raised, but I'll do it anyway.

ZerglingOne

2013-05-13, 11:48 PM

Rich. You do not need to apologize. Those of us that have been reading for a long time know you well enough that we hold no grudge on the delays that you OBVIOUSLY DON'T WANT TO OCCUR.

You folks that are grumpy about all kinds of factors related to release times, let me break this down for you, and I apologize to you right now Rich for posting about some of this, but I'm so tired of the haters.

First off, he has the main comic to do. This is why 95% of us are here, including us Kickstarter backers. If you contributed to the Kickstarter just to get some unique art or something, then why are you even reading the comic? Do you not love this wonderful story he has made for us to read FOR FREE?

Second, while there is the thumb issue, Rich unfortunately suffers from an undisclosed medical condition that apparently has terrible side effects related to sitting at a computer for extended periods of time. he literally willingly puts himself in physical pain to continue his masterpiece.

Third, there's the thumb issue. Do you have any idea how horrible glass cuts are? First off they nearly always cause nerve damage because they're near monomolecular edges which slice through damn near anything. Second, they tend to leave fragments of glass in whatever they cut (oh JOY) which can lead to chronic pain and internal bleeding. Third, they take forever to heal because they aren't like a razor blade cut, they're uneven and they damage far more blood vessels which slows the healing process down.

Finally, he has a family, or at least a wife, that he has to spend -some- time with. He's probably so smashed with absolutely everything he's doing, I'm surprised he's able to update the comic at ALL, let alone the 1-2 per week he's been putting out, along with working on the remaining Kickstarter stuff.

Have some patience please, and let the man work.

jere7my

2013-05-13, 11:56 PM

Assistant doesn't have to work for free, don't know where did you find this suggestion. Obvious point was to use Kickstarter money, you see, that would be little portion of 1.25M raised.

You're referring to the Kickstarter money that has all been spent, and then some, as Rich pointed out in this very thread? That Kickstarter money?

Rich has been doing this as his full-time job for years now. He lives with the intricacies of running a business and being an artist 24 hours a day. Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think someone on an internet forum who's put five minutes of thought into the problems they suppose Rich faces, with no knowledge of the specifics of his situation, would come up with a solution he hadn't already considered? How much credence would you give to random "helpful" people on the internet telling you how to do your job? Crowdsourcing is great, but it doesn't replace actual expertise.

sparkyinbozo

2013-05-14, 12:15 AM

Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think someone on an internet forum who's put five minutes of thought into the problems they suppose Rich faces, with no knowledge of the specifics of his situation, would come up with a solution he hadn't already considered? How much credence would you give to random "helpful" people on the internet telling you how to do your job? Crowdsourcing is great, but it doesn't replace actual expertise.

Don't be too hard on people (even if they didn't read the earlier post); sometimes great ideas come from unexpected sources, or a bad suggestion could lead to a good idea down the road. I work with special needs kids and even in those circumstances, great ideas pop up. Besides, suggestions weren't exactly discouraged, and this seems like a genuine attempt to make a helpful one.

If you have any suggestions for how I can work faster than I am currently working, I am open to them. ... Because I will take it. I want it. I want to work faster.

factotum

2013-05-14, 01:43 AM

Skyeyes

2013-05-14, 02:31 AM

Rich has been doing this as his full-time job for years now. He lives with the intricacies of running a business and being an artist 24 hours a day. Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think someone on an internet forum who's put five minutes of thought into the problems they suppose Rich faces, with no knowledge of the specifics of his situation, would come up with a solution he hadn't already considered? How much credence would you give to random "helpful" people on the internet telling you how to do your job?.

No, I find calmed opinions like mine very valuable, because external observers aren't under pressure of being half year late.

Skyeyes

2013-05-14, 03:17 AM

I direct you to this:

You're referring to the Kickstarter money that has all been spent, and then some, as Rich pointed out in this very thread? That Kickstarter money?

Did you miss the post where the Giant said he'd already spent more than the Kickstarter raised on processing the rewards? :smallsigh:

Is it implied that money were spent before it was known that deadlines will be missed?
The more I learn about Kickstarter the more confused I am.

Math_Mage

2013-05-14, 05:04 AM

I don't know how Kickstarter funding works, but couldn't you hire someone to help you to do work when you raised money? I.e.

1) Artist assistant to do routine work, like painting and backgrounds, or framing and composition

2) Manager, different approach, you continue to do all art, he does all scheduling, prioritizing, negotiations, publishing, designing plush toys, etc, etc.

Of course I'm not a lawyer, you will also need legal advice to how hire others, how to include them in credits, how to protect your int.property and such.
But I think every business should be scalable (sp?), imagine yourself as naval captain, there will be time when you'll be filming OotS saga movies and sell Lego sets, it shouldn't rely on your 'thumb', its your ideas and vision what matters, let others do some job too :)
P.S. I tried my best to not sound offending, English isn't my primary language, I appreciate your comic, best wishes and regards to you.
P.P.S. Yoohoo, my first post, though I posted earlier on D&D 3.5 rules, yes I am proud rule-lawyer, beware.

From the bolded, I gather that your 'ideas and vision' for running OotS as a business are significantly different from the Giant's apparent aims. It would behoove you to consider that maybe there's a good reason for that difference.

oppyu

2013-05-14, 06:18 AM

My completely unsolicited advice for the Giant regarding his comic is that he should replace all character models with simpler, easier-to-draw replacements. He claims this is a 'stick comic', but those detailed drawings aren't stick figures. A REAL stick figure is a straight line for a body, with a horizontal line for the arms and an upside-down V for the legs, and a circle for a head. If the Giant follows my advice, then he'll quickly catch up on everything and everything will be fine, because I'm awesome and any advice I give is applicable for any situation.

Also, he should hire me to write dialogue. Or draw the comics. Or get him coffee. Or to pat his head and compliment him every time someone complains about him on the forum.

The Succubus

2013-05-14, 06:27 AM

...

Any necromancers in the playground? Can we zombify *just his thumb* ?

:smallbiggrin:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Create Greater Thumbdead? :smallcool:

SaintRidley

2013-05-14, 06:38 AM

Is it implied that money were spent before it was known that deadlines will be missed?
The more I learn about Kickstarter the more confused I am.

First page of the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15218400&postcount=29)

It's complicated. Yes, the total cost of the printing bills, swag bills, postage, Kickstarter fees, and taxes have exceeded the $1.25M raised. Taxes ended up coming in much higher than expected, and in particular a drastic hike in international postage rates earlier this year hit me hard on the autographed packages that had to wait until I could hold a marker again. But, that doesn't mean that I'm losing money on the whole project.

See, the project was not ever constructed to make a profit. It was constructed to more-or-less break even, but in such a way that I had thousands of extra books printed when all the Kickstarter rewards were sent out. Those extra books would then be sold through the normal channels—Ookoodook and your local gaming store—and those sales would be where I made the actual money that I would pay my rent and such with.

As of right now, the cost of printing and fulfilling the goods has topped the amount of money sent to me via Kickstarter, but it has not topped the amount of money directly sent plus the amount I have earned from regular sales since August of last year, when books were once again available in sales channels. So, strictly speaking, the project turned a profit overall. It's just that there's no Kickstarter money sitting in a bank account anymore; I'm only earning the normal trickle of book sales every month. Of course, without Kickstarter, I would have no books left to sell right now, and I would have no trickle of book sales.

The good news is that there is relatively little expense left to incur. Only the postage on the remaining Patience and crayon drawing packages remains, and I've already put that much into my postage account to make sure I don't accidentally spend it.

Skyeyes

2013-05-14, 07:05 AM

First page of the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15218400&postcount=29)

See, this doesn't helps to clear my confusion about KS. Does that means that author can gather money for one project but spend on another?

From the bolded, I gather that your 'ideas and vision' for running OotS as a business are significantly different from the Giant's apparent aims. It would behoove you to consider that maybe there's a good reason for that difference.

I don't know any. Ideally every artist want to expand as much as he can, but that's difficult due to financial and mental resources.

SaintRidley

2013-05-14, 07:09 AM

See, this doesn't helps to clear my confusion about KS. Does that means that author can gather money for one project but spend on another?

Rich spent the money on everything he promised from the kickstarter. It just cost more than the kickstarter raised. I'm not sure where you're getting confused.

The Succubus

2013-05-14, 07:17 AM

See, this doesn't helps to clear my confusion about KS. Does that means that author can gather money for one project but spend on another?

I'm pretty sure there's some very binding T&Cs when you create a Kickstarter account that prevents exactly that, not to mention pissing off an awful lot of backers and destroying any kind of reputation you had on the internet. It's mutual trust at the end of the day - Rich trusts his fans to pledge to his Kickstarter, we trust in Rich to deliver the goods and everyone comes out a winner. My shiny collection of signed OotS books is testament to how well it can work. ^_^

Newwby

2013-05-14, 07:26 AM

Create Greater Thumbdead? :smallcool:

I was trying so hard not to get involved in this thread but that made me laugh far more than it should have! (Since I'm in anyways now...)

See, this doesn't helps to clear my confusion about KS. Does that means that author can gather money for one project but spend on another?

The money was for the reprint drive non? Are the rewards not just that - rewards? Admittedly I did not take part in the Kickstarter (since I discovered the comic after it had ended but surely would if there were ever a future KS) but I would have immediately assumed the rewards were simply 'on the way' and not dated.

Something that I haven't seen brought up in the thread yet - Rich isn't obliged to work 24 hours a day on OotS. A typical worker would work 7 hours a day (excluding an hours lunchbreak) and atypical workers or the self employed not much more. Rich is entitled to his downtime as much as anyone, if not more due to the recovery.

tassaron

2013-05-14, 08:20 AM

I'm not usually one to bandwagon-defend Rich (because that's completely unnecessary to do and I don't worship artists) but some of the posts in this thread are just bewildering to me. :smallconfused: Rich has never accepted donations, and every time the Kickstarter exceeded what he expected, he added more things to it that would use up the larger amounts of money he was receiving. It was a fundraiser, not a ploy to turn a profit. Why do people expect there to be leftover money?

As someone who has run her own business (albeit on a local scale, not like the Giant's), I can confirm that 1.25M seems like a completely realistic price for all the stuff that came out of the Kickstarter. I don't know obviously, but the cost of reprinting every book (and increasing the print size to accommodate reward-books) and the cost of international postage (which can be sky-high) seems like it could easily add up to that number.

I pledged $15 so I could get a magnet to guard my grocery list. The fact that I can expect to receive much more than that is downright shocking, given how fundraisers usually work. Rich has gone above and beyond to ensure that he lives up to his old standard of "not accepting donations" by giving KS participants way more than they would get out of any other KS project. People seriously expected this not to take a lot of time? I was shocked that the main comic came back as fast as it did, after the glass injury. Look at how many things are on the workometer. If we were getting NO progress, that would be cause for alarm, but things are moving along quite well for a one-man-army with an injured thumb.

theangelJean

2013-05-14, 08:24 AM

See, this doesn't helps to clear my confusion about KS. Does that means that author can gather money for one project but spend on another?

The Kickstarter project goal was always "reprint the books so they can be available for sale". It grew quite a bit - once it was clear that the printing would be funded, not just for one book but all six, then he brought in his other ideas for things we might want, such as stickers, a colouring book and hit point pads, so secondary goals were "pay for the creation of new merchandise". The premise for backers of the project was always "put in some money to help me reprint the books, we will use the money to reprint the books and make the merchandise, and we will send you the books and/or merchandise you asked for". This was made perfectly clear to potential backers from the start. The other result (which was also made clear in the beginning) was that Rich would be able to sell rest of the books in the future.

Most of the money was immediately spent on reprinting the books, printing the other merchandise, and some was later spent on boxes and postage for sending said books and merchandise to the people who paid for them. So he did with the money exactly what he said he would. And then he also had a tax bill.

I'm not sure what "other project" you think Rich might have spent the money on. But I will remind you of one thing: the Kickstarter was never to "pay Rich for writing the webcomic". In fact Rich has never accepted any money from anyone "to write the webcomic". He does it for free, has done for nearly a decade, and if nobody had backed the Kickstarter, I suspect he would still be writing the webcomic, mostly because he wants to tell this story and he's committed to finishing it.

He does accept money for books and merchandise. The deal there is, you pay money, you get a book (or a mug, or a t-shirt, or a game). And he still writes a free webcomic. The Kickstarter was started because he'd run out of some of the books and couldn't afford to reprint them, so the goal was "reprint the books so Rich can sell them". Now he has more books to sell, but it's still a free webcomic.

I don't know any. Ideally every artist want to expand as much as he can, but that's difficult due to financial and mental resources.

I'd point out that Rich probably has his own ideas about what he wants. If you don't know the reasons, that doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you can't read his mind. They might be very good reasons, but he doesn't have to tell us what they are or try and convince us he's right, he can do what he wants.

King of Nowhere

2013-05-14, 11:21 AM

Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think someone on an internet forum who's put five minutes of thought into the problems they suppose Rich faces, with no knowledge of the specifics of his situation, would come up with a solution he hadn't already considered? How much credence would you give to random "helpful" people on the internet telling you how to do your job? Crowdsourcing is great, but it doesn't replace actual expertise.
There is a widely applied decision-making process that relies on people with no experience and scant knowledge telling the experts what to do.
It is called "democracy".
Now, the idea of democracy is not that common people will take better decisions, but that politicians cannot be trusted to act for the common good without some kind of control over them. That's pretty much the only case where having random people give direction to experts is justified.

But putting that aside, I think internet really enhanced the phenomenon of people improvising themselves world experts. There's all sort of people who will read a wikipedia article and think they know everything. And anyway, it is a common trait of humankind to think of everyone else as stupid. probably it was put there by evolution because if we didn't thought we were smarter than others, we would never act for fear of being wrong.

Reddish Mage

2013-05-14, 01:43 PM

Just about the only thing I can think of to give myself more time to work and less stress is to not have to respond to threads complaining about everything I do, every single day. But there seems to be little chance of that.

Also, apologies to all of the supportive readers who have to sit through yet another rant of mine on another day about another problem. Rest assured that your patience is appreciated.

I really love hearing the your own understanding, explanation, and use of D&D, its a part of why I started reading the forums regularly after following the strips for years without, but really only criticism that obligate a response from the Giant are the rumors to the effect that our favorite author has absconded to some tropical island with his pile of money and has decided to rewrite the comic to feature a fireball throwing fighter and wizard spell-casting clerics.

Admittedly, I've only followed the forums religiously since the new year return, but since then I'm pretty sure possible fireball throwing Roy claims only appeared once, and I've only seen a handful of tropical island references.

pendell

2013-05-14, 02:30 PM

May I edit your post just slightly to reflect my own opinion?

Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think a patent office clerk with no physics background (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_einstein#Patent_office) can completely revolutionize our understanding of the physical universe, which the recognized authorities cannot do?

No, no I don't think it's hubristic at all.

And yes, I do believe it is possible for someone on a web site can come up with an idea no one has ever thought of before to solve a problem no one ever realized could be solved.

If I may steal from Harry Potter and the methods of rationality (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/85/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality)

A year ago, Dad had gone to the Australian National University in Canberra for a conference where he'd been an invited speaker, and he'd taken Mum and Harry along. And they'd all visited the National Museum of Australia, because, it had turned out, there was basically nothing else to do in Canberra. The glass display cases had shown rock-throwers crafted by the Australian aborigines - like giant wooden shoehorns, they'd looked, but smoothed and carved and ornamented with painstaking care. In the 40,000 years since anatomically modern humans had migrated to Australia from Asia, nobody had invented the bow-and-arrow. It really made you appreciate how non-obvious was the idea of Progress.

That's the problem with the "best and brightest" thinkers. Because authorities and experts are prone to orthodoxy and group think. Because of this, experts produce evolutionary progress, not revolutionary progress. They can make a slightly better widget but the real progress is the work of genius, the work of the loner, the crank, the madman in his garage workshop or his mother's basement.

In the 1970s, IBM possessed some of the best and brightest in industry. But they weren't the ones who made the PC market. It was made by people like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, people who were most definitely NOT rocket scientists. They did, however, know a good idea when they saw one, and they knew how to market the heck out of it.

Bob Lutz of General Motors discusses the same problem in the automotive industry (http://www.amazon.com/Car-Guys-vs-Bean-Counters/dp/1591844002). Many of GMs problems came about when they put the best and brightest ivy league graduates of the best schools in charge of the industry, instead of the crazy people who actually loved cars and knew them.

The best and brightest gave us Windows Vista. One crazy man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_torvalds) gave us Linux.

So yes, I'll bet on the lone genius and the madman and the cranks over "expert opinion". At a guess, 99 times out of a 100 it's worthless but the one time it IS worthwhile it pays for everything else and then some.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

jere7my

2013-05-14, 03:04 PM

May I edit your post just slightly to reflect my own opinion?

"Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think a patent office clerk with no physics background can completely revolutionize our understanding of the physical universe, which the recognized authorities cannot do?"

No, no I don't think it's hubristic at all.

Einstein got his PhD in physics the same year he published those papers on Brownian motion and relativity. He was by no means someone "with no physics background"—he'd been studying physics for half his life at that point.

And yes, I do believe it is possible for someone on a web site can come up with an idea no one has ever thought of before to solve a problem no one ever realized could be solved.

Possible? Yes. Is believing you are that one person, against all odds and with no actual knowledge of the problem, a display of hubris? Yes. For every Einstein, there are ten thousand cranks and fools who think they've figured out perpetual motion or the orgone crystals of Atlantis.

Sure, someone could pop up with a suggestion for Rich that would revolutionize his workflow. But "Uh, hire an assistant?" is not Einstein-level thinking, and when well-meaning suggestions like that crop up again and again on these forums it starts sounding like the forum is asking, "Why is Rich such a dummy? I don't even work on comics, and I could come up with an awesome way to get us more comics faster!" You're insisting that Rich has a problem, first off, then implying that he's too hidebound or dumb to see the obvious, obvious solution you've come up with.

Edit: Look, I don't make the rules here, and I'm not comfortable putting words in Rich's mouth. For all I know, he nods graciously at each suggestion and carefully files it away for future reference. All I know is how I would feel if I got a constant stream of suggestions on how to handle my affairs from people with no experience in my field(s). I'm just asking people to be aware that Rich may react in the same way, which means the end result may be the opposite of the help most people are trying to give.

If I may steal from Harry Potter and the methods of rationality (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/85/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality)

The second you start quoting fanfic as a basis for argument is the second I stop reading. It's almost as bad as citing Television Tropes.

factotum

2013-05-14, 03:33 PM

There is a widely applied decision-making process that relies on people with no experience and scant knowledge telling the experts what to do.
It is called "democracy".

The whole principle of democracy is that a large number of people are more likely to make a reasonable decision than a small number, though. It doesn't mean that a single non-expert is somehow more qualified to make a decision or assist someone than someone who knows of what they speak!

The Giant

2013-05-14, 04:04 PM

OK, I know I opened this door, so rather than my usual grumpy, "I don't want suggestions," I am going to shoot them down one at a time:

I already mentioned that an art assistant would not work. Almost all of the tasks that have been mentioned that could be delegated to such a position simply don't exist with the way that I make the art. I mean, backgrounds? Have you read the strip? Half the time, I draw one big colored rectangle to cover the whole strip and call it done. It would literally take me more time to explain what color I wanted the rectangle to an art assistant than it would for me to draw it myself.
I know people don't realize this because they think the art is incredibly crude, but I am actually fairly nitpicky about how the comic looks. I spend a lot of time tweaking it for things like unintended tangents. It is actually faster for me to draw it with a minimum of such issues than to have to correct someone else's drawing.
Stuff like scheduling, talking with printers, and other non-creative business tasks are not really a problem. Because I can only draw for so much time each day, I actually have more time than ever before to handle those things. Hiring a person to help me with that stuff would be paying another person to do the things that I can already do.
I've already explained about the Kickstarter expenses, too. When I ran the Kickstarter, I made an estimate of how much things would cost to fulfill. That estimate was close, but not perfect. Some things went up in price, and there were some things that I didn't account for. And even if it had been perfect, it did not include any portion for hiring an assistant, so there would be no money left for that anyway. Given that I have no reason to think that an assistant would make much difference, I'm not planning on spending my money on one.
My business is not a democracy. If you took a vote, I am sure the idea of, "I would pay for faster updates," would get like 90% approval from the readers. That doesn't change any of the problems involved, however.

Also, let's drop the unrelated derail on the value of group suggestions, and let's avoid throwing flames at the OP. Nothing he posted was out of line with the forum rules, even if you disagree with his conclusions.

jere7my

2013-05-14, 04:09 PM

Also, let's drop the unrelated derail on the value of group suggestions, and let's avoid throwing flames at the OP. Nothing he posted was out of line with the forum rules, even if you disagree with his conclusions.

Aye aye, Giant. Apologies to the OP for sniping.

SadisticFishing

2013-05-14, 07:10 PM

I hate to say it, but that was really good to hear, Mr. The Giant. Order of the Stick is quite literally one of my favourite three things on the internet. It's my top priority every time I get on the computer - "check for a new OotS" is the first thing I do virtually every time I sit down.

It would have been really nice if there were some way to make this more efficient, but so long as it's been looked into, that's as good as we can possibly ask for (in that it's as good as it can possibly get).

P.S. Never meant to imply the art was crude, I just assumed there was more copy/pasting than there is.

Acanous

2013-05-14, 07:20 PM

Jay R

2013-05-14, 08:22 PM

... let's avoid throwing flames at the OP. Nothing he posted was out of line with the forum rules, even if you disagree with his conclusions.

What a gracious defense of somebody you had no particular reason or need or motivation to defend. I'm impressed.

NihhusHuotAliro

2013-05-14, 09:09 PM

EDIT: Oh, this discussion is over.

Math_Mage

2013-05-14, 09:31 PM

I don't know any. Ideally every artist want to expand as much as he can, but that's difficult due to financial and mental resources.
This is simply not true. For example, read what Bill Watterson had to say about Calvin & Hobbes, merchandising, and syndication.

May I edit your post just slightly to reflect my own opinion?

"Doesn't it strike you as hubristic to think a patent office clerk with no physics background can completely revolutionize our understanding of the physical universe, which the recognized authorities cannot do?"

No, no I don't think it's hubristic at all.
Let's talk about this for a bit.

Einstein excelled in the physical and mathematical sciences from a young age. He enrolled in one of Europe's top technical colleges when he was 17, received his teaching diploma four years later, and authored a paper published in Germany's leading physics journal--the same one to which he later submitted his work on special relativity and the photoelectric effect--in the same year. He took a job as a patent clerk for want of a teaching post to match his diploma; the patents he worked on informed his famous physics thought experiments. In his spare time, he read physics texts with his physics-loving wife, when he wasn't talking philosophy and physics with his physics-loving friends.

Meanwhile, leading lights of physics had been tackling the problems surrounding the speed of light for some time. The phrase 'inertial frame of reference' was coined in 1885. Non-Euclidean geometries, the constant speed of light, velocity dependence of mass, and other familiar concepts of relativity were in the discussion before Einstein came along. Poincare, Lorentz, Max Abraham, these are not small names.

Einstein was a genius. Brilliant. Revolutionary. But he was not a rogue working outside the established system, he was not an everyman who picked up physics in a year, and he was not making advances that were impossible for the 'authorities' of physics.

As a footnote, a much better example of the rogue revolutionary would be Srinivasa Ramanujan, the most famous Indian mathematician of all time, who developed thousands of important theorems without formal mathematical schooling before dying young of tuberculosis.

All this is very much off-topic, but I hope it's informative enough to pass.

Reddish Mage

2013-05-14, 10:08 PM

What a gracious defense of somebody you had no particular reason or need or motivation to defend. I'm impressed.

We are all fans of OOTS here. I think the critics may represent more fans who aren't posting but have the same questions.

I myself am more worried about the quality of what I will see then the timeline.

Throknor

2013-05-14, 10:14 PM

I know people don't realize this because they think the art is incredibly crude, but I am actually fairly nitpicky about how the comic looks. I spend a lot of time tweaking it for things like unintended tangents. It is actually faster for me to draw it with a minimum of such issues than to have to correct someone else's drawing.

I'm going to go on two limbs here. I believe a large majority of your fans notice subconsciously, and it keeps them coming back. And I'd bet a larger group than you might think are perfectly aware of the subtle details that are in every strip. Your characters emotions show through on a level that surpasses much of the mass-produced commercial art out there. Anyone that dismisses your style as 'just stick characters' probably has no real appreciation of the medium.

Yeah, that's a little thick. But as someone whose attention to detail often goes unnoticed I thought you'd like to hear it. Or read it, as the case may be.

NZNinja

2013-05-14, 10:17 PM

If you took a vote, I am sure the idea of, "I would pay for faster updates," would get like 90% approval from the readers.

Exactly this - while The Giant could run a Penny Arcade style KickStarter to fund the comic for a year, I have no illusions that there are any hold-ups in the production of the comic that throwing money at would immediately solve.

Speaking of throwing money around, I have some now that I didn't have during the KickStarter, so put me down for one of those anti-refunds!

zql

2013-05-14, 10:31 PM

I really admire Mr. Burlew's patience to read and reply to this threads. I can't think of any other artist with this level of compromise with his/her audience.
This is a really good story, you don't get one of this very often, so I try to be patient and enjoy the smooth ride. That said, if I can wait 5-6 years for George Martin to deliver another book, I consider myself very lucky to have an OotS update everyweek.

Silverionmox

2013-05-15, 04:39 AM

I really admire Mr. Burlew's patience to read and reply to this threads. I can't think of any other artist with this level of compromise with his/her audience.
You're just going to love Tarn Adams of Dwarf Fortres then.

Warren Dew

2013-05-15, 05:06 AM

Aharon

2013-05-15, 05:44 AM

If you have any suggestions for how I can work faster than I am currently working, I am open to them.

You probably already considered it - but for the small possibility you haven't: would it be feasible to hire a cheap, aspiring artist (ideally someone who loves the comic and wants to help you) to draw until your thumb is healed? He would get recognition - having drawn for one of the bigger webcomics surely is a good reference for artists - and you could continue the story, which you probably already have outlined in your head anyway.

I don't want to appear as a know-it-all or something, but you specifically asked for suggestions, and there is an off-chance you haven't considered this solution yet.

Math_Mage

2013-05-15, 06:28 AM

You probably already considered it - but for the small possibility you haven't: would it be feasible to hire a cheap, aspiring artist (ideally someone who loves the comic and wants to help you) to draw until your thumb is healed? He would get recognition - having drawn for one of the bigger webcomics surely is a good reference for artists - and you could continue the story, which you probably already have outlined in your head anyway.

I don't want to appear as a know-it-all or something, but you specifically asked for suggestions, and there is an off-chance you haven't considered this solution yet.

Since the Giant has discussed it in this thread...

Sunken Valley

2013-05-15, 06:31 AM

Because I can only draw for so much time each day

Do you if this is going to be a permanent concern? Was the injury to your thumb so bad that your drawing abillity is permanently limited?

Scrynor

2013-05-15, 07:11 AM

Just a general tip, think of all Kickstarters the way you (should) think of loaning money to a friend. You are giving them money as a gift because you care about them and if you never get it back then that is perfectly okay. Helping them is reward enough and your only true motive. If you happen to get your money back (or get the rewards promised) then that is just gravy. If you can't think of it that way then don't do it.

Everyone involved on all sides of the transaction will be much happier for it.

pendell

2013-05-15, 07:42 AM

Thank you, Math_mage, your earlier response to mine was informative.

So, let me see if I understand this correctly.

The "long pole in the tent" is Rich's thumb. He can only draw so much every day. Period. End of story. Throwing money at the problem won't solve it. An assistant is not doable because A) even a cheap assistant costs money and B) it would take longer to correct the assistant's work than it would for Rich to simply draw it himself.

Radical therapies will not help, or if they would they are not worth the expense and risk. The best thing for the thumb to do is to allow it to heal at its own rate. Thus, there is a finite amount of work Rich can do on both kickstarter projects and the weekly comic. He can, perhaps, sprint for a short period of time, but at the potential cost of further damage to his thumb. So it's better to work slowly and heal sustainably than it is to unduly stress his thumb.

Is all that correct?

*Does a quick google*

I'm assuming Rich is already seeing a physical therapist for recovery of his thumb? Someone who has expertise in biomechanics and can give him guidance on how best to use his thumb to avoid further injury and to be most productive? It seems this is frequently a problem athletes have, and a PT can modify things like golf swings or what not to reduce damage from repetititive stress injury, and to heal from injuries more efficiently.

If Rich is not seeing a licensed physical therapist, would he be willing to if one could be made available? 'Cause I'm thinking this is the sort of thing that can't be done over the internet or something that can be done on one's own using self-googled resources. It would require a real therapist who can actually come in and see exactly how Rich holds his thumb and does his work.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Dr. Gamera

2013-05-15, 10:36 AM

I'm assuming Rich is already seeing a physical therapist for recovery of his thumb?

Rich tweeted on November 14th that the therapist had him picking up handfuls of six-sided dice over and over: https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/268931657564823554

SaintRidley

2013-05-15, 10:38 AM

Do you if this is going to be a permanent concern? Was the injury to your thumb so bad that your drawing abillity is permanently limited?

I'm pretty sure it was a thing before the thumb injury too. Rich isn't an automaton. He can't, and never has been able to draw 24 hours a day. There's only so much time in the day that one can devote to a single task, injured or not. Besides, he'd probably develop carpal tunnel if he did something crazy like eight hours of drawing a day every day.

Sunken Valley

2013-05-15, 11:44 AM

I'm pretty sure it was a thing before the thumb injury too. Rich isn't an automaton. He can't, and never has been able to draw 24 hours a day. There's only so much time in the day that one can devote to a single task, injured or not. Besides, he'd probably develop carpal tunnel if he did something crazy like eight hours of drawing a day every day.

I know. But Rich is increasingly blaming the thumb specifically for his problems and he's making it sound like the thumb only allowed him to draw for 2 hours a day or something. I was wondering if the thumb problem itself was permanent.

If it is, I'm sure you've considered it before Rich but have you tried training your left hand to be as good as your right? That may soothe the pain.

The Giant

2013-05-15, 12:18 PM

Nonetheless, I'll mention it on the very small chance that you'll try it out. It's the paleo diet. The high quality protein, and the lack of inflammatory foods, in the diet, make healing go somewhat faster, and have a variety of other benefits for middle aged people.

I am a vegetarian. So, no, I'm not going to switch to a diet revolving around fish and meat.

You probably already considered it - but for the small possibility you haven't: would it be feasible to hire a cheap, aspiring artist (ideally someone who loves the comic and wants to help you) to draw until your thumb is healed? He would get recognition - having drawn for one of the bigger webcomics surely is a good reference for artists - and you could continue the story, which you probably already have outlined in your head anyway.

First, this runs into the problems with having an art assistant. Second, people didn't pay into the Kickstarter for someone else's work, and I think it would be poorly received overall. And third, while doing more work is a goal, it is not a goal at the expense of handing control of half of my comic over to someone else. And fourth...

Do you if this is going to be a permanent concern? Was the injury to your thumb so bad that your drawing abillity is permanently limited?

Yes. The injury is effectively permanent at this point. I have already been discharged from physical therapy, which means that the therapist doesn't think it's going to get any better than it is now. Is it possible that new nerves can grow in the tip, or that scarring will break down? Yes. Have I been told that it may take years, or may never happen? Also yes. I am no longer waiting for my thumb to heal; I am now learning how to draw with a permanent injury. Thus, anything that shifts the burden of that art to someone else will actually DELAY the day when I have mastered my hand's new (limited) capabilities.

*Does a quick google*

If Rich is not seeing a licensed physical therapist, would he be willing to if one could be made available? 'Cause I'm thinking this is the sort of thing that can't be done over the internet or something that can be done on one's own using self-googled resources. It would require a real therapist who can actually come in and see exactly how Rich holds his thumb and does his work.

:smallannoyed: Yes, I have already seen a physical therapist. Extensively. But hey, thanks for googling the problem, that never occurred to me in the seven months that this has been the primary concern of my entire life.

If it is, I'm sure you've considered it before Rich but have you tried training your left hand to be as good as your right? That may soothe the pain.

Do you really think I didn't try this back when my right hand was in a cast for weeks? I can't even write my name with my left hand. Right now, I think the time would be better spent learning to work around my right thumb.

-------------------------

We are getting to the point where suggestions, well-intentioned though they may be, are either repetitive or borderline insulting, in that they assume that I haven't spent any time trying to solve the central problems of my own life. There is no five minute solution to this problem. This has been thought about and researched and studied by myself, my wife, two physical therapists, a hand surgeon, and my regular doctor. I am already doing all of the things that we came up with. Unless you are privy to something not easily available to the general public, chances are your quick idea has already been tried, or considered and rejected.

EmperorSarda

2013-05-15, 01:28 PM

Unless you are privy to something not easily available to the general public, chances are your quick idea has already been tried, or considered and rejected.

Regeneration. Unless of course you too are working with an undead abomination that refuses to let it be healed.

Sunken Valley

2013-05-15, 03:02 PM

pendell

2013-05-15, 03:02 PM

Rich, I'm sorry if you found my suggestion insulting. Yes, I had assumed you were already seeing a licensed therapist and I did not mean to imply that you were incompetent or stupid.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

J's

2013-05-15, 03:23 PM

This would save you much time and effort that would normally go into deciding which breakfast you feel active enough to bother scrabbling together. A proper breakfast-in-bed should also go a long way towards reducing your overall stress levels as well.

I think this is the best way to kill two rocs with one meteor swarm.

I disagree about the relaxing part of breakfast in bed. The likelyhood of spills when at a semi reclined position is higher than when sitting upright. And then you have to clean a spill and since you can't let egg or milk go (or they will rot in the fabric) you have to launder the bed sheets, and possibly the mattress as well.
A stable table over looking a pleasing green space would be better.

And people seem to have missed the point of the giants comments. The kickstarter (despite being ten times what was expected) went as planned. The plan was to make $ off of the books printed, not the KS rewards. So relax, no need to panic about it.

SoC175

2013-05-15, 03:50 PM

However, maybe the Giant could get adamantium drawing tools that pop out of his hands when he needs them? That'd be kind of cool. :smallwink:But if he loses his memories he can't finish OOtS :smalleek:

Mutant Sheep

2013-05-15, 04:03 PM

Two More Questions for you Mr Burlew.

1. Are you able to reveal how much time the injury allows you to work on the comic/stories as opposed to how many hours would be done pre-injury? The figures would be useful to know, especially for The Thread of The Phantasm.

2. How will the injury affect your ability to do more "complex" art, such as the Crayon Drawings, Julio Scoundrel and the inevitable non-stick figure comic you produce in 4-5 years time?

I hope the answers to both of these questions will ease the minds of all the fans and show that the thumb injury isn't this big demon they are making it out to be. Unless of course the answer is "it takes me >33% (>133%?) more time than it used to" or "the injury halves the amount of time I can work on the comic". In which case, it would be good to know.

EDIT: Overly Personal Question Alert!: What level of Vegetarianism are you and is the decision for health reasons or ethical ones? As a lapsed vegetarian due to my own health problems the intake of iron and the correct protein is low. Maybe it is worth trying, if not some of the more organic meat, Iron and Protein pills to strengthen your immune system? I assume you take these? Please don't smite me or not answer the better questions up top.

Final advice: Just keep pushing it and try pushing it a bit harder every week. Which I am sure you are doing.I don't see how useful a side by side comparison of "This is how crippling an injury it is" is actually useful for the Giant's Comment's thread, which revolves around keeping the most useful information easily accessible. It's just curiosity, rather than a useful answer. Hell, the train of thought about the thumb injury being such a debilitating issue is what led to all the "You should get an assistant*cough* to help you Rich". Getting specifics seems rather morbid, and unless Rich has a recording of himself drawing, would be a guesstimate anyways. I don't see

I would assume it makes it much slower.:smalltongue:

Considering Rich's previous statements about his diet (Read:Like, two or three times), it seems to be a moral issue. His usage of "special chamber" which caused the "Oh god Holocaust joke" thread was in reference to the dreadful conditions in which animals are "processed" for meat. But that is an inference, and I could be wrong.

Edit: Found his original statement on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14808112&postcount=125):smallsmile: (I just wish I knew how to quote it:smallredface:)

EmperorSarda

2013-05-15, 04:33 PM

But if he loses his memories he can't finish OOtS :smalleek:

Well that's only if he takes an adamantium bullet to the brain.

deworde

2013-05-15, 04:54 PM

my regular doctor. I am already doing all of the things that we came up with. Unless you are privy to something not easily available to the general public, chances are your quick idea has already been tried, or considered and rejected.

Samples of Benedict Cumberbatch's blood?

jere7my

2013-05-15, 05:18 PM

(Spoiler deleted.)

Spoiler warnings only work if you indicate what they're spoiling outside the spoiler tags. That movie doesn't even open until midnight.

oppyu

2013-05-15, 05:25 PM

Have you tried putting a band-aid on your thumb?

martianmister

2013-05-15, 05:39 PM

Just cut off your hand.

The Succubus

2013-05-15, 05:43 PM

Maybe...we should just leave him to get on with things? The man sounds like he knows what he's doing. :smallsmile:

Fitzclowningham

2013-05-15, 05:59 PM

Maybe...we should just leave him to get on with things? The man sounds like he knows what he's doing. :smallsmile:

Motion seconded.

ZMiles

2013-05-15, 06:08 PM

Are there any medical procedures that may help but that you haven't done due to cost/not being part of insurance plan and so requiring out of pocket expenses/logistical constraints (e.g., the only facility offering the treatment is on the other side of the world and would require an extended stay abroad)?

If 'more money' could help on the medical front, it might be possible for some kind of forum donation drive.

Also -- and this is admittedly unlikely to apply to your circumstances, but I include it for completeness -- as a graduate student, I have been in the situation of wanting to read a useful paper to my research (based on the title of the paper, or the name of the conference/journal), only to find that it has not been translated into English. I suppose it is possible that perhaps there are other medical procedures or therapies that have been developed and published in professional literature, but not put in English yet. If this is the case, and there is some kind of 'Conference on [Your Injury]' or somesuch whose proceedings are not translated, a forum donation drive could maybe help hire a translator.

That all said, I also want to say that I have no complaints or problems whatsoever with the current rate of updates, nor with you taking as much time as you need to/want to to recuperate from your injury. You gave me hours upon hours of joy, for free, when I first found this webcomic and read it over and over again. This really is one of the best webcomics out there, and I am grateful that you have made the vast majority of the content available publicly online. Additionally, I also contributed to the kickstarter (7-book set+ 1 additional coloring book), and I was perfectly satisfied both with the quality of the products I received, and the time in which they arrived (and this includes the miniatures, the Belkar PDF, etc). Your work is amazing, and I am very glad that I have been able to read it.