What would be the most fun low Epic character to play?

[Nettlekid]

At the end of the summer, my friend plans to start a low-Epic campaign based on the game Xorvintaal, from MMV. But it's likely to boil down to a lot of dungeon-crawling and dragon-hunting. Dungeons and Dragons, of course. It'll be a pretty small group, and of the group I am by far the most experienced player (both in terms of games played and more importantly in a "books read" and optimizing sense.) So, although I've got tons of time and will probably change my mind before the end of the summer, I want the Playground's advice on what sort of character might be fun for this campaign. I've built many characters to 20th level for fun, so I have many to choose from or could make a brand new one. (The campaign is level 22). I expect that the other players will be either a melee brute or a mailman Sorcerer, and probably a Scout. So that leaves a lot in the air for me.

My potential ideas are (built to level 20):
A Dragonfire Adept 20, who's spent all WBL to buy protective items to make him virtually unkillable. Not very offensively strong or versatile, but I like his personality.
An Erudite 20 who would have basically all spells and powers known. Definitely overpowered, only limited by his indifference to common beings.
A Tibbit Rogue who fights with feats like Confound the Big Folk to get lots of SA damage.
A Frenzied Berserker, just because it's pretty fun, crazy, and does insane damage. Less TPK potential at Epic levels, riiiiight?
Shadowcraft Mage, because I love the idea of illusions that are realer than real. Still, since everything will have Mind Blank, the more creative and clever illusions are unusable and I get stuck with Shadow Fireballs.
A Paladin (or pseudo-Paladin RKV). The Paladin is interesting just because if you go Paladin 12, you get Earth Glide. Which is cool. And RKV can get 9th level Cleric spells and 8th level maneuvers.
A Chameleon, because if I can't pick one thing I could do them all.
Wizard/Swiftblade, focusing mainly on melee (maxing out at 6th level spells, and rounding off with Warblade). Kind of a fun and dashing swordsman idea.
Truenamer 20, because at high levels with lots of cheese I could get my Truespeak as high as an Incantatrix gets its Spellcraft. Gates everywhere.
Eternal Blade, to be a bit like Link. Hey, listen! Maybe make him mute.
Stalker of Kharash, because Rangers like Aragorn are cool.
Jade Phoenix Mage is neat because at this level it can grab 9ths, but I think I'll suggest it to my friend instead.
Force Missile Mage. If we're going classic Dungeons and Dragons, Magic Missile is as classic as it gets.
Teflemmar Shadowlord, because my DM loves Rogues and Assassins and would probably love to see it played.
Master Transmogrifist. Probably the strongest build here, apart from the Erudite. Could lead to Persisted Shapechange with Infinite Variety abuse.


Those are just a few ideas of mine. I'm hesitant to play a straight-up caster, because I think my group underestimates them and I certainly do not. The DM has said that honestly, if he doesn't feel too creative then difficulty will just rise to be bigger and stronger dragons. I always expect the worst with all rolls. I expect to fail any save unless I have a ridiculously high save, and never hit unless I have a ridiculously high to-hit. I also expect to always be hit, and with a Dragon that's not unreasonable. A full attack could probably kill anyone who actually took it head-on. Which is why I'd either want some sort of caster build or tons of magic items for defense. But if I was so well-protected, then things would be one-sided. If I go super-offense, like the Frenzied Berserker, then every fight is like an arms race and whoever wins initiative (me, because we're fighting Dragons) wins. There seems to me to be no middle ground between "slaughtered immediately by melee or death spells" and "grind the world into your heel." What do you suggest?

Also, what would go well with the game of Xorvintaal, in which we are going to be used as pawns in some way. A headstrong character who gets angry about being used, and tells the dragons to shove it (while still accidentally doing what they want anyway)? A taciturn character who has strong loyalties, but maybe not to whom it appears? A Jack Sparrow-ish character who jumps allegiances with an even greater master plan? Suggestions welcome.

[Nettlekid]

Ooh...Because it's high-level...what about something with Vampire? Take the Vampire and then Vampire Lord templates, to get a total of +12 Str, +8 Dex, - Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +8 Cha. And at level 22, I'd still have 14 class levels to do things with. If I used the trick with Legacy Champion and the vampire class template, I could be X 9/no HD Vampire LA 1/Legacy Champion 10/X 2. I'd end up being a full Vampire X 13, with the HD, saves, and BAB of the Legacy Champion, and have 21 HD to boot. That could be interesting. Looking through Weapons of Legacy (and wow...they're pretty bad, aren't they?) one that might work is the Stalker Bow. Makes use of the high Str, and the all-around boosted stats make up for the skill check penalty. What would make a good X class?

[Alleran]

Be a Draconic vampire. Less LA to deal with, and overall you get fewer/lessened weaknesses as well.

[Nettlekid]

Interesting, it does seem like mostly the same with less LA (and a possibly more useful +4 Str +6 Dex as opposed to +6 Str +4 Dex) but two things are bad about it. One is that it doesn't explicitly qualify for Vampire Lord, which is really good. But more importantly, it doesn't have a monster class lever layout. Is -3 LA worth losing 5 HD, with BAB and saves? Especially since many of the vampire's powers' save DCs are based on HD.

[Sactheminions]

No question what I would play:

Persistent Spell Glaivelock. Something like Warlock 1/Cleric 3/Eldritch Disciple 10 / Mystic Theurge 6 or just Warlock it up if you don't want to double PrC.

The build is based on Eldritch Glaive. Once you get a Dark essence, you take Utterdark, and start handing out negative levels like they're going out of style, which is pretty sweet at epic (your party's casters will thank you for lowering saves). The Epic Warlock is on a Web page I think; and some of the stuff is amazing.

I don't recall the feat chain, but the only requirements are DMM Persist, whatever the requirements for Disciple are, and Combat Reflexes (because you have a reach weapon that will be doing ~7d6+1d8+strength+2 negative levels per hit.

You have spells, so I'd be tempted to just prioritize Dex and Bracers it up, walk around with no armor (bracers under billowy swashbuckley sleeves?), with no weapons, not cast any spells, and summon a light-eating polearm to fight with, because, damn.

It's nonoptimized, so you never have to worry about your DM crying and killing you, but it's got 9th level spells (with Theurge; 7th without), but useful enough to contribute to epic encounters.

Cast commune on a regular basis, and refer to it as "filial obligations". Make the party take time out because "It's Mother's Day in Acheron."

Alternatives are to skip out of Cleric after Disciple and go for something like Abjurant Champion or even IoSV. Just be sure to advance your Invocations because you need the Darks and they come late.

[Sactheminions]

There are also options that hit Divine Grace. Sometimes more than once!

[Nettlekid]

I've decided not to be a vampire. Even with Legacy Champion for the HD, being basically a level 13 character in a level 22 world is too restricting. And the vampire powers aren't all that cool. It would be easier to make a vampire-esque character, like a Beguiler or Teflemmar Shadowlord, and go with that.

[Nettlekid]

How, boys and girls of the Playground (actually, are there any girls here?), might you be able to make the Gurren Lagann? Or at least something that's functionally similar. Mainly drills (lance would work) and drilling through the ground/ Wouldn't have to be a robot necessarily, so no need for Warforged. The best I can think of is a lance-wielding Paladin 12, who has the ACF that gives you Earth Glide. But there's probably better.

[Emperor Tippy]

How, boys and girls of the Playground (actually, are there any girls here?), might you be able to make the Gurren Lagann? Or at least something that's functionally similar. Mainly drills (lance would work) and drilling through the ground/ Wouldn't have to be a robot necessarily, so no need for Warforged. The best I can think of is a lance-wielding Paladin 12, who has the ACF that gives you Earth Glide. But there's probably better.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15227004&postcount=18
Well there is your mecha.

---
In regards to the OP it could be fun to do the following. First go Venerable Factotum 5/ Psion 17 with all of your attribute points put into Int, Wis, and Cha and buy a Shadesteel Golem (you might want to advance it to 24 HD for two extra attribute points, place them in Dex probably). Now buy a scroll of Polymorph and hire a level 11 Factotum. Have the Factotum use Cunning Breach on the Shadesteel Golem to bypass SR and use the Scroll of Polymorph to turn it into a human. Now manifest True Mind Switch with the polymorphed Shadesteel Golem before ending the Polymorph.

Now hit your former body with the Temporal Stasis spell and then stuff it inside a permanent mages sanctum inside a permanent prismatic sphere in deep space on another prime material plane.

I would also grab Vow of Poverty and then chaos shuffle it away for an extra 12 feats.

Put future levels into Factotum until you max that out.

Grab Epic Speed to give you a 60 foot perfect fly speed (double that with Boots of Swiftness).

Use Ice Assassin to create a copy of your self and then have it use Psychic Reformation to repick all of it's powers (and switch all of its feats to Expanded Knowledge) before having it use Psychic Chiurgery to transfer them to you. Get all powers in the game onto your list.

Switch the 12 extra feats to Great Intelligence, maybe some Font of Inspiration instead.

It could be quite fun, versatile, decent power wise, and let you decide how you want to play on any given day (assassin, scout, blaster, mind manipulator, transport, etc.).

[Urpriest]

If you want to avoid 9th level spells but still have fun stuff in the low-epic, consider Warlock-based builds (Eldritch Disciple build above would work, if you're ok having a fair bit of Cleric), or Binder. Both have fun and interesting online material for low-epic.

[Nettlekid]

stuff

I can't tell if you're just trolling now, but either way I think I'm going to request that you not answer any of my posts from now on, just because I can already guess what you'd say and it's never what I'm looking for.

[Emperor Tippy]

I can't tell if you're just trolling now, but either way I think I'm going to request that you not answer any of my posts from now on, just because I can already guess what you'd say and it's never what I'm looking for.

I've given you what you asked for on multiple occasions. It tends to turn out that you don't actually want what you ask for.

First you asked for a way to keep up with mailmen and power attack in epic with only thirteen available levels and nine levels of nothing positive. I told you how but you didn't want sneak attack.

Then you asked for a non vamp build that could survive and contribute without being overpowering. I gave you one of those but you decided that you didn't want a stealthy factotum assassin.

Then you asked for something completely different so I actually gave you a monk of all things that met your requirements and could play a great skirmisher.

Then you asked how to get a golems immunity to magic onto your build. I told you how to do that but apparently you didn't really want it.

Then you asked how to get a metamagiced spell as an SLA and I told you two methods to do that. You also asked to be able to churn out Time Stops whenever you felt like so I told you how to do that as well, but again you apparently actually didn't want to do that.

Then you asked for a way to make your character immune to the breath weapon of dragons so I told you how to do that, but you weren't satisfied and instead wanted to dodge them instead of just be immune to them. Fine, I told you how to do that instead and you still weren't satisfied.

Now here in this thread you said "might you be able to make the Gurren Lagann?"; a mecha that is perhaps most famous for being the size of the galaxy. I guess I finally failed to actually give you what you wanted as I only told you how to get a mecha the size of a planet. Sorry, I promise to do better next time.

Then in the OP you ask for a fun build to play and I assumed wanted one in line with your posted builds power wise and wanted one that was defensively strong, offensively able to contribute, but not overwhelming. So I gave you all of that.

But what is the end result of all of this? You unhappy with being given exactly what you ask for and then accusing me of trolling.

I think it's the other way around, you are the one trolling. You are asking how to do things and then getting pissy when your questions are actually answered. If you aren't looking for what you ask for then don't ask for it in the first place.

[Nettlekid]

No, you go outside the bounds of what I ask for. I always state that I don't want to play anything overpowered or which uses cheesy methods in its execution, because that's far too easy and isn't fun. That is the first guideline I go by. Everything you suggest involves using 9th level spells to manipulate a character into getting abilities that aren't normally accessible to the character archetype, which is hardly different than playing a level 20 Wizard and buffing with whatever spells you want. Let's look at good and bad examples of building, and we'll see where you go wrong.
Let's say you want to build a character that cannot be damaged by weapon attacks.

One way you could do it is with a Psion using a Persisted Timeless Body. Or if you were high enough level, Timeless Body, Temporal Reiteration every turn, and the Metamind's Font of Power. This is simple and effective, but very cheesy and overall, not very fun.

You could use a Starmantle Cloak, and some people would say that Evasion applies to that (I disagree for the same reason that Evasion doesn't work with the Rogue's Defensive Roll, but to each their own). Not very cheesy, really, but not flavorful either, so not fun.

You could gain Regeneration somehow, cover your weaknesses, and then become immune to nonlethal damage. I like going to Hell and using the Shriver, if the rest of your build is designed to handle it. An interesting roleplay opportunity arises if you choose not to make yourself immune to Chaotic Good damage, because then you have an active interest in making allies with Chaotic Good creatures that could hurt you. Since it takes a bit of effort to make the Shriver work (since I expect Devils don't let you buff beforehand), it's quite flavorful while still being effective. Pretty fun.

You could design your character to avoid all attacks, be it through use of spells like Wings of Cover, or abilities like the Paladin's Earth Glide ACF, or clever use of out-of-turn movement. While less effective, because no method is infallible, the challenge is part of what makes it fun. Be clever in each battle so your enemy doesn't take advantage of your weak point.

Or you could say Pazuzu three times, get a Candle of Invocation to Gate in an Efreet, wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin to make an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself before Fusioning and Astral Seeding so that now only you can harm yourself forever. Take appropriate precautions, perhaps using a Thought Bottle, to avoid level loss. This method is very effective, although it's needlessly complicated, unforgivably cheesy and abusive of various rules, and once it's done it wouldn't be fun to play because there's nothing to do. This is every suggestion of yours, and you keep offering it even when I tell you it's not what I want.


What you keep doing is you read I think maybe one sentence, or half a sentence of a request, and then answer it as though that is the request in its entirety, regardless of caveats following. The metamagic Haste/Time Stop thing is a perfect example. I wanted a way to repeated use what counted as a higher level Haste with the Swiftblade's capstone to effectively make at-will Time Stops. You took it as "I want to make metamagic Haste-" "DONE, HERE'S METAMAGIC ON HASTE, WHAT YOU WERE SAYING IS NO GOOD ANYWAY HAVE A DIFFERENT KIND" "-to make Time Stop-" "USE TRUE MIND SWITCH AND POLYMORPH ANY OBJECT LOTS OF TIMES AND THINGS WILL WORK OUT" Because that is definitely your go-to plan for any build. And really, if your go-to plan is the same for any build, then it has nothing to do with the build. Which defeats the purpose of building a build.

Another good example of your inattentiveness to the detail of a request is the Gurren Lagann thing I just posted. I did quite specifically say that my main focus was on the drills and digging through the ground, and I didn't even need/want it to be a robot. All you gave me was the robot without actually giving me any advice on what I'd asked for. Also, to nitpick, I requested the Gurren Lagann and you've taken it to assume I mean the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, though with the humanoid statue it's more like the Chouginga Dai-Gurren, but let's not split hairs. Whatever the case, you gave me entirely not what I had asked for, refuse to accept that what I want or consider fun r to play is different that what you want or consider fun, and so yes, your most recent post seemed to be trolling when you rattle off a list of what people in the last thread remarked that you're famous for rattling off. I will continue to ask for suggestions and ideas from the forums, but I would like you not to contribute to my threads, because I do not like any of the ideas you are going to contribute.


(Also, I still maintain that Epic Erudite does anything and everything better than all the weird strategies you suggest. Mainly because it can do all of them on its own with no cost.)

[Emperor Tippy]

No, you go outside the bounds of what I ask for.
No, I give you exactly what you ask for.

I always state that I don't want to play anything overpowered or which uses cheesy methods in its execution, because that's far too easy and isn't fun.
You have yet to ask for *anything* that doesn't rank high up on the cheese ladder. You also seem to have a very variable standard for what counts as "overpowered". Spell to Power Erudite, Shadowcraft Mage, Jade Phoenix Mage with 9th level spells; these aren't weak builds. Nothing I have suggested is out of line with them power wise.


That is the first guideline I go by.
No, apparently it isn't seeing as you constantly ask for things that are by their very definition cheese. "I want an epic character that only has 13 effective class levels that can do damage on par with a Mailman or high end melee". Please explain how that is done without cheese? "I want a golems immunity to magic." Please explain how that is not cheese. "I want Gurren Lagann." Please explain how the galaxy sized mecha is not cheese.


Everything you suggest involves using 9th level spells to manipulate a character into getting abilities that aren't normally accessible to the character archetype,
Everything I suggest is how to do what you ask for. Unfortunately for you, most of what you ask for is not stuff that can be done without "cheese".


which is hardly different than playing a level 20 Wizard and buffing with whatever spells you want.
No, it's very different. Most of the stuff you dislike is things that you spend some gold/feats on and do once and then benefit from without ever having to use magic again. It's using magic as a one off to allow you to perform some other task at a level that is useful in epic play.

Let's look at good and bad examples of building, and we'll see where you go wrong.
Let's say you want to build a character that cannot be damaged by weapon attacks.

One way you could do it is with a Psion using a Persisted Timeless Body. Or if you were high enough level, Timeless Body, Temporal Reiteration every turn, and the Metamind's Font of Power. This is simple and effective, but very cheesy and overall, not very fun.
It's also very easy to shut down.


You could use a Starmantle Cloak, and some people would say that Evasion applies to that (I disagree for the same reason that Evasion doesn't work with the Rogue's Defensive Roll, but to each their own). Not very cheesy, really, but not flavorful either, so not fun.
Plenty flavorful if you bother to fluff it as such.


You could gain Regeneration somehow, cover your weaknesses, and then become immune to nonlethal damage. I like going to Hell and using the Shriver, if the rest of your build is designed to handle it. An interesting roleplay opportunity arises if you choose not to make yourself immune to Chaotic Good damage, because then you have an active interest in making allies with Chaotic Good creatures that could hurt you. Since it takes a bit of effort to make the Shriver work (since I expect Devils don't let you buff beforehand), it's quite flavorful while still being effective. Pretty fun.
Also forces you to be a Shriver. Doesn't help if you want to be, say, human.


You could design your character to avoid all attacks, be it through use of spells like Wings of Cover, or abilities like the Paladin's Earth Glide ACF, or clever use of out-of-turn movement. While less effective, because no method is infallible, the challenge is part of what makes it fun. Be clever in each battle so your enemy doesn't take advantage of your weak point.
Yes, there are plenty of ways to prevent harm.


Or you could say Pazuzu three times,
Forces you to change alignment, brings you to the attention of Pazuzu, can be corrupted unless you are a Paladin.

get a Candle of Invocation to Gate in an Efreet,
Tends to be asking to be corrupted.

wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin to make an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself before Fusioning and Astral Seeding so that now only you can harm yourself forever. Take appropriate precautions, perhaps using a Thought Bottle, to avoid level loss. This method is very effective, although it's needlessly complicated,
It's quite simple. Shapechange -> Zodar -> Wish -> Ice Assassin Scroll -> Aleax manifests Fusion -> Aleax passes control to you -> you manifest Astral seed -> Kill yourself.


unforgivably cheesy
Only in that becoming immune to all harm is probably cheesy. But there are still plenty of ways to screw you over so not really.

and abusive of various rules,
Um not really. The rules aren't abused. Every step is clear cut rules legal without ambiguity.

and once it's done it wouldn't be fun to play because there's nothing to do.
This shows a distinct lack of imagination, there is plenty to do. Just because you can't die doesn't really mean anything in epic; everyone is effectively immortal anyways.


This is every suggestion of yours, and you keep offering it even when I tell you it's not what I want.
No, I haven't suggested this course of action to you at all yet.


What you keep doing is you read I think maybe one sentence, or half a sentence of a request, and then answer it as though that is the request in its entirety, regardless of caveats following. The metamagic Haste/Time Stop thing is a perfect example. I wanted a way to repeated use what counted as a higher level Haste with the Swiftblade's capstone to effectively make at-will Time Stops.
That's not what you asked. The entirety of your request was "Is there any way to get a metamagiced spell as a SLA? Imagine if you had a Heightened-to-9th-level Haste as an SLA, and could just churn out Time Stop whenever you felt like it? Now THAT would be pretty worthy of Epic-level."

I answered everything involved. You didn't say "How can I get unlimited Haste's for the Swiftblade capstone, time stop whenever would be great."


You took it as "I want to make metamagic Haste-" "DONE, HERE'S METAMAGIC ON HASTE, WHAT YOU WERE SAYING IS NO GOOD ANYWAY HAVE A DIFFERENT KIND" "-to make Time Stop-" "USE TRUE MIND SWITCH AND POLYMORPH ANY OBJECT LOTS OF TIMES AND THINGS WILL WORK OUT"
You never mentioned Swiftblade in the entire post in question. I gave you exactly what you wanted.


Because that is definitely your go-to plan for any build. And really, if your go-to plan is the same for any build, then it has nothing to do with the build. Which defeats the purpose of building a build.
The trick used to realize a build is independent of the build its self. Just because you can use a trick for multiple things doesn't mean that you need to use it for more than the one thing that you want. When you ask for cheese to be added to your build the easiest and most efficient means of doing that tends to be a variant of the trick I listed.


Another good example of your inattentiveness to the detail of a request is the Gurren Lagann thing I just posted. I did quite specifically say that my main focus was on the drills and digging through the ground, and I didn't even need/want it to be a robot. All you gave me was the robot without actually giving me any advice on what I'd asked for.
You asked for the robot. Drills aren't a weapon in D&D because unlike the Japanese manga and anime worlds D&D weapons actually have something approaching the slimmest modicum of sense and drills make really, really, bad weapons. I gave you the robot, if you want to refluff something as a drill then nothing is stopping you.


Also, to nitpick, I requested the Gurren Lagann and you've taken it to assume I mean the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, though with the humanoid statue it's more like the Chouginga Dai-Gurren, but let's not split hairs.
The sum totality of my knowledge of TTGL is "giant galaxy sized mecha that runs on hot blood and is horribly idiotic; how anyone can like this or the ideas behind it is way beyond me. Oh yeah, the weapon of choice is giant drill bits for some insane reason." There, that is TTGL to my knowledge. I gave you what I had the knowledge to give. If you don't want your requests met then don't make them.


Whatever the case, you gave me entirely not what I had asked for, refuse to accept that what I want or consider fun r to play is different that what you want or consider fun, and so yes, your most recent post seemed to be trolling when you rattle off a list of what people in the last thread remarked that you're famous for rattling off.
I fill peoples requests in as efficient and complete a manner as possible. If you (or they) don't like that then don't make requests or preface your requests with things like "no using Ice Assassin or no using this trick.".


I will continue to ask for suggestions and ideas from the forums, but I would like you not to contribute to my threads, because I do not like any of the ideas you are going to contribute.
Tough cookies. You aren't a mod, admin, or the owner of these forums. If you post a thread asking a question and I feel like replying then I am free to do so and your opinion on that is, quite frankly, irrelevant. If you don't like it then put me on your ignore list.


(Also, I still maintain that Epic Erudite does anything and everything better than all the weird strategies you suggest. Mainly because it can do all of them on its own with no cost.)
Epic Erudite has to use the exact same tricks and it doesn't matter whether it's dumped on a Commoner base or something else. All powers, spells, and maneuvers can be had in a few minutes and all with absolutely no investment beyond a single scroll of Shapechange.

[Nettlekid]

{Scrubbed}

[EugeneVoid]

@Emperor Tippy
I think that TTGL is kind of cool, so I'm a tad offended.
@Nettlekid
He just quoted exactly what you said like 24ish times. I don't understand how he couldn't be reading... what?

[Tanuki Tales]

@Emperor Tippy
I think that TTGL is kind of cool, so I'm a tad offended.

While the series is awesome, you can't honestly say it's not silly, over the top and nonsensical as all get out.

[EugeneVoid]

That's true.

[Sactheminions]

Re : Epic Warlock.

Step 1 : Google "Morpheme Savant".

Step 2 : Win.

You get at will demand. At virtually infinite range.

As a secondary effect of the feat. (The primary effect is at will Power Words.)

The feat is basically called "I used to adventure, but now I compose Haiku. And then send them across the world to cause their targets to bring me treasure."

This is not even the most powerful of the lot, but it always sounded like the most fun to this Vampire-bred player.

[Ace Nex]

I personally favor epic spellcasters, as you can do A LOT with them
(Personal Favorite is Wiz 5/Incantrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7)
Or something Gishy
(Wizard 7/Swordsage or Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix 10/Abjurant Champion 4/. Gives you 9th Level spells and 9th level maneuvers).

Gish can shapechange into pretty much anything, so you can be in back blasting away with your spells, or up front with the bruisers taking them out with your martial-ness.