Becoming a Lich early

[WebTiefling]

Got a guy in a game (that has wildly jumped the shark) who has become a Lich at level 6.

He got a huge butt-load of gold (180K), enough to make the phylactery, and said that all he needed to do was be able to cast a spell at a CL of 11th. (plus spend the 120 days crafting the phylactery) He bought several items that give bumps to CL, stacked them up to gain five caster levels, and then said "Voila!"

Is this ok by the rules? The text from the SRD states:

The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

"... cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher."

1) Is that satisfied by being able to bump up one's CL with various effects?

2) Do the increases in CL stack with each other or not?

The game is well past the point of calling BS on this even if it does break the rules, but I would like to know if this is actually legal or not.

[ArcturusV]

They do as long as they have different names. So watch out for things like "Enhancement Bonus" versus "Competent Bonus" or if it just says plain "Bonus" (Untyped). Not knowing what he used in particular I can't say if it doesn't all stack.

But otherwise? Yeah. If I wanted to I could be a Lich as a Bard 1/Monk X, with appropriate boosts to Caster Level.

[WebTiefling]

Is the "Monk X" part of that necessary for something I'm not realizing at the moment?

Oh, and that's just wrong to have a Bard be able to become a Lich. :smallbiggrin:

BTW, had a bard win a rather difficult challenge with the spell "Summon Instrument" to drop a Tuba on top of a person. I think we all with WTF! promptly followed by ROTFLOL!

edit: and I can't remember exactly which ones he used, but I'm sure there are ways to find enough of the untyped ones to stack up five levels that even if he didn't pick exactly the right ones, that he could have.

[TuggyNE]

Is this ok by the rules? The text from the SRD states:


"... cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher."

1) Is that satisfied by being able to bump up one's CL with various effects?

2) Do the increases in CL stack with each other or not?

In reverse order: assuming proper bonus types, yes they do, yes it is, and yes it works. Funky, but perfectly legal.


Oh, and that's just wrong to have a Bard be able to become a Lich. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, why? Music is immortal! (and other such cheesy slogans)

Also, *insert snarky remark about pop-culture artist here*.

:smalltongue:

[ArcturusV]

Not really. Though I know Monk has a slew of "Combine Monk Levels and ____ levels to determine _____, _____, and _____". So they probably have one that covers Caster Level for Bards or something. Just was using an example. Could be Bard 1 if you could rustle up enough wealth for 10 levels of Caster bonuses and the money for the phylactery.

Also, Bardic Liches are freakin' scary. And something I've done as a villain.

"We're fighting a lich! Watch out for Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, Necromancy, etc!" and they buff to resist energy and negative energy, just to get mindscrewed by Illusions and Enchantments.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Also, Bardic Liches are freakin' scary. And something I've done as a villain.

"We're fighting a lich! Watch out for Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, Necromancy, etc!" and they buff to resist energy and negative energy, just to get mindscrewed by Illusions and Enchantments.

...huh. I have an image of this like (WARNING: ACTUAL SPOILERS AHEAD)
The first meeting with Mance Rayder in Song of Ice and Fire

Where the hero(s) enter and there's some lich-lord looking guy all decked out with flashy magic items seated on a skull throne, and then somewhere in the shadows there's a scrawny-looking skeleton with a harp that's the real lich.

[Andezzar]

Also, Bardic Liches are freakin' scary. And something I've done as a villain. Too bad he can't use his bardic music on his undead minions. He has to get other minions.

[TuggyNE]

Too bad he can't use his bardic music on his undead minions. He has to get other minions.

Isn't there a feat or whatever for that? Requiem, maybe?

[Rhynn]

Isn't there a feat or whatever for that? Requiem, maybe?

Yep, exactly that. From Libris Mortis, the feat Requiem lets your mind-affecting bardic music and virtuoso's performance abilities influence even the undead (but the bardic music effects on undead are at half duration).

Also, one of the example liches in Libris Mortis is a halfling bard.

Not sure why a lich would automatically/always have undead minions anyway, though. Dominate and living minions works fine. Better, if you actually want to wield power over mortals.

[MrNobody]

I think it's all legal, even if I, as a DM, never allow my player to use item empowerment for such graet changes.

The main question is what it's goint to happen when he loses one or more of this object without improving his CL by experience. Maybe he loses the magic power needed to sustain his undead form? or the negative energy, no more balanced by magic, corrupts his mind drowning him in madnes?

Lichdom is something thought to be achieved by most powerful spellcasters, not by everyone lucky enough to get lots of money: if you try to achieve it with a shortcut you could have to face serious consequences.

EDIT: watch out for the exp cost. He needs 6000 exp to get 7th level from 6th so, if he's not very close to level up, he could lose a level just during the construction of the phylactery.

[Ranting Fool]

Oh, and that's just wrong to have a Bard be able to become a Lich. :smallbiggrin:

Hey just because it's D&D doesn't mean you can't have some Death Metal! :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Rhynn]

I personally don't let anyone qualify for anything with extraneous bonuses (e.g. 11 Dex and gloves of dexterity +2 don't qualify you for Dodge).

It just seems wrong.

Then again, I also generally don't bother to strip away prestige class abilities or feats, even temporarily, if you cease to meet the requirements because of temporary, indefinite, or permanent changes (e.g. you don't lose Power Attack because aging reduced your Str to 12).

Obviously this is a choice a DM has to make about interpreting the rules.

[Steward]

The main question is what it's goint to happen when he loses one or more of this object without improving his CL by experience. Maybe he loses the magic power needed to sustain his undead form? or the negative energy, no more balanced by magic, corrupts his mind drowning him in madnes?

Aren't those requirements (the caster level and everything) required only for the purpose of creating the phylactery?

I like the implication of what you said though, about the magic power being a balance or a source of sustenance, but I'm not sure it's from the books.

[pyromanser244]

I'm with Rhynn and MrNobody here. the rules quoted stink of over site by WotC. I can see a spellcaster using various arcane relics to help him perform rituals and such. but there should be no real substitution for the experience and know-how that comes with being an actual 11th level caster.

shenanigans breeds more shenanigans. and Murphy's law.

let......him.....try.:smallamused:

[Rhynn]

Aren't those requirements (the caster level and everything) required only for the purpose of creating the phylactery?

More or less, although it's a bit unclear.


Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

There's no requirement about maintaining your caster level, or even about needing caster level X to become a lich, other than to create the phylactery. (Of course, you can't have someone else create it, so the process is probably rather more than just creating a magic item.)

That last remark about caster level makes me wonder, though... what happens when someone disjuncts or dispels your phylactery? The rules don't really say either way - do you have to destroy the lich and its phylactery, or does destroying the phylactery destroy the lich? Suppressing the phylactery with dispel magic does... what? If you suppress it, then kill the lich, is the lich destroyed, or does it start reforming when the suppression effect wears off?

[Andezzar]

While the ability to cast spells and have 11 caster levels are required to craft the phylactery and thus become a lich, no such requirement exists to continue being a lich.

The definition of lich tells us that no further magic is required to maintain lichdom:
A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp to create.

If that 4,800 xp cost would put him under 15,000 xp at 6th level, then he cannot make it because you cannot spend so much xp that you lose a level.

The time it takes to create a magic item is one day per 1,000 gp in its base price. The phylactery pricing is a bit off, because item creation is always 1/2 the base price in gp and 1/25 the base price in xp. That 4,800 xp is 1/25 of 120,000 gp, but you have to pay the full 120,000 gp instead of half as much. So assuming that's its base price, it takes 8 hours per day for 120 days to create a phylactery. If his caster level is not 11+ for every round of every minute of that eight hours for every one of those days, then he fails to meet its prerequisites during creation and fails to create it. So if he has any effects that only increase his caster level when casting a spell, then he has to cast to cast a spell every round of every hour for eight hours (4800 spells/day) when creating it, but then he's spending eight hours per day casting spells instead of crafting the phylactery, so it just doesn't work. It only works if his caster level boosting items provide a static caster level bonus, i.e. do not contain the clause when casting a spell.

Edit: He also cannot bypass the +4 LA of the Lich template, so he won't gain another level until the reset of the party hits 11th. Furthermore, he's going to be gaining less xp per encounter because he's at a higher ECL than the rest of the party, on top of that 4,800 xp he paid to craft the phylactery. Finally, a DM is well within his rights to force the player to gradually gain the template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) as he levels up, rather than piling all the ultimate power on all at once.

[MrNobody]

While the ability to cast spells and have 11 caster levels are required to craft the phylactery and thus become a lich, no such requirement exists to continue being a lich.

I'll use your own quote.


A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.

If we want to search answer only in the book, it says clearly that the power derives from the spellcaster, not from other sources.

[Andezzar]

So you are saying that the possessive pronoun only includes inherent magical powers but powers excludes any upgrades to existing powers that are derived from items in the possession of the prospective lich?

I have never heard of making any distinction between abilities gained through items and gained through other means (class features, HD etc.) outside of houserules.

So regardless whether the item boosted CL works or not, a CL reduction after becoming a lich does not affect the lich at all.

[MrNobody]

More or less it's what i'm saying... i admit that i've stressed a lot that fact, but if we are searching the solution of the problem only in books we cannot ignore anything is said.

[JoshuaZ]

BTW, had a bard win a rather difficult challenge with the spell "Summon Instrument" to drop a Tuba on top of a person. I think we all with WTF! promptly followed by ROTFLOL!


This is not how this spell functions. You may want to reread it.

[Andezzar]

More or less it's what i'm saying... i admit that i've stressed a lot that fact, but if we are searching the solution of the problem only in books we cannot ignore anything is said.Well the thing is, the books make no such distinction. If you possess an ability (whether through items or otherwise) you can use that ability to qualify for other abilities. If you don't, you can't, regardless whether the lack is temporary or permanent.

[Coidzor]

That last remark about caster level makes me wonder, though... what happens when someone disjuncts or dispels your phylactery? The rules don't really say either way - do you have to destroy the lich and its phylactery, or does destroying the phylactery destroy the lich? Suppressing the phylactery with dispel magic does... what? If you suppress it, then kill the lich, is the lich destroyed, or does it start reforming when the suppression effect wears off?

Disjunction would probably destroy the phylactery and liches don't die if their phylacteries are destroyed unless the lich's body had already been destroyed.

Whether losing the phylactery is a set-back that makes the lich temporarily vulnerable while he makes a new one or if he becomes hella paranoid because now he doesn't have a phylactery and can't build a new one depends on the rules being used. IIRC, the RAW of core is vague enough to allow them to make a new phylactery but Libris Mortis has some rules that say they can't.

Dispelling the phylactery would be rather pointless as it wouldn't do anything but suppress it for a trivial length of time.

[Rhynn]

Disjunction would probably destroy the phylactery and liches don't die if their phylacteries are destroyed unless the lich's body had already been destroyed.

This isn't really explicitly stated, is it? It's an interpretative matter. Is the phylactery a hide-away for the soul in case it has to flee the body, or is it a hide-away where the soul is removed from the soul in the lichdom ritual?

After all, the probable inspiration for the soul phylacteries, Koschei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei), had his soul hidden away.

In a RAW-only discussion, "it's not stated so it is not" works, but this seems like one of those blank areas that a DM is expected to fill out.


Whether losing the phylactery is a set-back that makes the lich temporarily vulnerable while he makes a new one or if he becomes hella paranoid because now he doesn't have a phylactery and can't build a new one depends on the rules being used. IIRC, the RAW of core is vague enough to allow them to make a new phylactery but Libris Mortis has some rules that say they can't.

Yeah, it's not clear at all that you can just create a new phylactery. I'd rather think the whole lichdom business is slightly more involved than the bare-bones rules of "create a magic item" ...

[Coidzor]

This isn't really explicitly stated, is it? It's an interpretative matter. Is the phylactery a hide-away for the soul in case it has to flee the body, or is it a hide-away where the soul is removed from the soul in the lichdom ritual?

My understanding was that the RAW you had to both destroy the lich and the phylactery to get rid of it for good. It's been a while since I read that section of Libris Mortis where it would have been clarified if they were going to clarify.


After all, the probable inspiration for the soul phylacteries, Koschei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei), had his soul hidden away.

Potentially enlightening, but a dangerous game trying to apply outside lore and expecting it to have survived even mostly intact inside the bowels of the devs.


In a RAW-only discussion, "it's not stated so it is not" works, but this seems like one of those blank areas that a DM is expected to fill out.

That's the idea, aye.


Yeah, it's not clear at all that you can just create a new phylactery. I'd rather think the whole lichdom business is slightly more involved than the bare-bones rules of "create a magic item" ...

That's the idea of having the DM fill in the blanks, aye, and many DMs have filled in the blanks to be that a lich can make a new phylactery if they're still around when the old one is broken.

[Cyanide]

I have to (albeit grudgingly) admit that the lich template [can be applied to any humanoid, provided it can create the phylactery], so if there is a 6th level character who has a caster level of 11, that character COULD become a lich.

In this specific case, however, the point is moot, because I frankly don't think that bonuses to Caster Level coming from items or any non-permanent source ( and I don't include permanency-ed spells and intrinsic bonuses) can be used to fulfill the requirements for any kind of feat, class or the creation of magic items.

Think about the Chameleon prestige class.
The caster levels you get from that class -do not- count as fulfilling prerequisites for feats, prestige classes or stuff like that. Similarly, the class feature that allows you to have a new bonus feat each day specifically states that you can't use that feat to qualify for other feats.

You could say <Well, that is because the caster levels and the bonus feat reset each day, so you techically "lose" them every day, while the bonuses coming from items and other stuff are always on.>

True, but they can be dispelled, or worse, disjuncted.

To me, this whole issue boils down to a single fact: if the feature you're considering can be taken away from you by an external source, or it has a limited duration, you can't use it to qualify for anything.

[Andezzar]

In this specific case, however, the point is moot, because I frankly don't think that bonuses to Caster Level coming from items or any non-permanent source ( and I don't include permanency-ed spells and intrinsic bonuses) can be used to fulfill the requirements for any kind of feat, class or the creation of magic items.How are spells that are made permanent any different from magic items in your possession? Both can beremoved, neither must be removed.


Think about the Chameleon prestige class.
The caster levels you get from that class -do not- count as fulfilling prerequisites for feats, prestige classes or stuff like that. Similarly, the class feature that allows you to have a new bonus feat each day specifically states that you can't use that feat to qualify for other feats.I might be blind, but I find no such rules in the book. Please quote them


You could say <Well, that is because the caster levels and the bonus feat reset each day, so you techically "lose" them every day, while the bonuses coming from items and other stuff are always on.>I don't see how that would make the CL form Aptitude Focus ineligible for making the Phylactery. Even with the required 1 hour of meditation and the choice each day, the prospective lich can still work the required 8 hours on the wondrous item. So all the time he has the requires CL.


True, but they can be dispelled, or worse, disjuncted."Can be" is not the same thing as "are". Things that can be removed only help until they are. Things that always are removed at a certain point/condition only help if they are only needed before that point is reached. So to gain a Feat, you must fulfill the requirements at level up. To use a feat you must also fulfill the prerequisites. You do not need to fulfill the prerequisites at any other time.

For PrCs you must fulfill the prerequisites at level up. Only a few PrCs frome some of the Complete books require you to continually fulfill the prerequisites.


To me, this whole issue boils down to a single fact: if the feature you're considering can be taken away from you by an external source, or it has a limited duration, you can't use it to qualify for anything.This is a houserule.

[Sactheminions]

I wouldn't have a problem with this from a rules perspective. I have a huge problem with it from a role-playing perspective. Why on earth does a (presumably young) 6th level character want to become undead? To take only the most obvious example, even Xykon had to be venerable, disease-ridden to the point of incapacitation from an adventuring perspective, and semipermanently imprisoned, before he went this route.

And if he's in it because "Moar Power", how does he know that? It isn't like everybody knows liches have a paralyzing touch - especially not people whose Knowledge (Arcana) is capped at 9 ranks - and much less devising the method of creating a phylactery. It isn't like every 6th level wizard is aware of lichdom, let alone aware of the means of phylactery creation.

[Of course, competence modifiers to skill rolls are hilariously undercosted.]

Also, one of the prior posters was wrong. It isn't that he wouldn't gain a level until he hit ECL 11. He's already ECL 10. He just levels up more slowly from there.

[JoshuaZ]

I wouldn't have a problem with this from a rules perspective. I have a huge problem with it from a role-playing perspective. Why on earth does a (presumably young) 6th level character want to become undead? To take only the most obvious example, even Xykon had to be venerable, disease-ridden to the point of incapacitation from an adventuring perspective, and semipermanently imprisoned, before he went this route.

And if he's in it because "Moar Power", how does he know that? It isn't like everybody knows liches have a paralyzing touch - especially not people whose Knowledge (Arcana) is capped at 9 ranks - and much less devising the method of creating a phylactery. It isn't like every 6th level wizard is aware of lichdom, let alone aware of the means of phylactery creation.


To name a few, the character could be already interested in undeath and immortality if they are a necromancer. Maybe they've seen people they knew cut down either by disease or war and they don't want that to happen to them. Maybe they just think long-term. Or they saw some smart person fall into senility and they want to make sure that never happens to them, and it is better to do that earlier if one can. This last makes particular sense if they are from one of the less long-lived races. A human or half-elf living among elves might feel the the years passing far earlier.

As to how they would know about a lich, a necromancer would likely know. If there have been any major liches in the last few years, any mildly educated mage might know the basics. Similarly, followers of certain deities would know ( Vecna for example) just because that's associated to things in their religion. Or, if it is totally in backstory, maybe they were told about a lich by some story told by a passing bard, or possibly they ran across a book discussing all sorts of undead, or they heard about it from a boastful set of adventurers who killed one. Or they were apprentice to a wizard who had lichdom as a goal (or possibly succeeded).

These are all easy to deal with.

[Andezzar]

In addition to what JoshuaZ wrote, age has nothing to do with experience points and thus level. You can go from level one to twenty in a couple of months, without doing more than 4 encounters per day. Even with only one encounter per day you would need less than a year.

Also a low Caster Level and thus the need for CL enhancing items does not mean that the character has a low ECL.

[ArcturusV]

Eh, the logic of "Well if you COULD lose the prereqs, you cannot use it" is a dangerous line of thinking to take. Because honestly there is nothing that is really guaranteed permanent in the game. By this same logic you could say something like a wizard could never scribe a scroll, brew a potion, create a wondrous item, etc. Because they theoretically COULD get hit with things like Negative Levels to remove their feat qualifications, or death and resurrection, or hit by things like Feeblemind so they lose the Int necessary to cast the prerequisite spells, etc.

You might think that's a "Strawman" or something. But that's the exact same logic you're applying when you say things like you shouldn't be able to use an item to qualify because someone might theoretically Disjunction it.